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#23199 04/03/10 09:27 PM
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Hey all,
I have run into my first bureaucratic obstacle. I'm trying to find an engineer that will check my structural design and help size my timbers. The 1st one I talked to said he wouldn't do it unless the timbers are graded. Is this typical of the structural engineers? Also (since I am building a "POLE and beam" structure rather than post and beam), how do you grade a pole? Isn't it difficult to detect knots and grain run out or other defects if the wood has not been milled? And do graders grade green wood? or does it have to be seasoned/dried?
thanks

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Hi Paul,

Wood that has been left in the round is considerably more robust (approx x 2) than wood converted into square or rectangular sections. The reason is simple and that is that none of the fibres have been cut thru and therefore failures due to slope of grain are greatly reduced. The grading process and assessment criteria used on converted wood requires a detailed inspection of all 4 faces with measurement and arithmetic cummulation of the various defects encountered. Since a pole does not have sides this methodology would prove somewhat difficult to apply.

You could search for Ben Law's book on building his cruck framed house in his woodland in South East England at http://www.ben-law.co.uk/books.html using sweet chestnut poles. I do recall that Ben discusses some engineering aspects associated with this build though to the best of my knowledge he is not an engineer.

Roundwood is used from time to time in building and maybe the most famous endeavour in this respect was the various award winning buildings by John Makepeace who set up shop at Hooke Park, Beaminster, Dorset, England see http://www.aaschool.ac.uk/AALIFE/HOOKEPARK/hooke.php for further details.

Please don't be put off your quest - a little research will yield dividends.

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 04/04/10 07:22 AM.

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Ken Hume #23211 04/04/10 03:00 PM
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You may want to talk to a local log builder who has more experience in using logs in the round. I assume they could give you decent information, one would think the logs for their trusses need to be graded. If you don't know of good log builder in your area, I suggest taking a look at the ilba website.

bub4e #23212 04/04/10 03:41 PM
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And you should be able to find traveling graders who will travel to your site and inspect and grade your poles to comply with the engineer's request....
To find one you should/could contact the lumberman's association for your area.


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Thanks all. Great to hear that the wood will be stronger in the round. That's what I was hoping. Anything to help satisfy engineers and building inspectors + I don't have to purchase a saw mill or hire a sawyer. My only regret will be that we can't see the wonderful color gradations within the oak log.

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Hi Paul,

Please keep in mind that the "moment of inertia" of the cross section of an unconverted log will be quite different from a converted rectangular beam or post and any taper of the log will also have to be taken into account in your engineers calculations.

Regards

Ken Hume


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Ken Hume #23233 04/05/10 12:48 PM
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DonK asked me to post this via an email. Somehow his log in has got corrupted and he isn't able to log in....

Quote:
From ICC 400-2007, Standard on the Design and Construction of Log Structures.
I think what he needs is under "Mixed Oak". TP is the listed grading
rules authority, For logs there are only 2 authorities, them and the
Log Homes Council. Any accredited agency can grade, according to the
grading rules written by these two rules writing authorities. TP has
an office and graders in WA; http://www.tpinspection.com/

Under their designation "SRTB" sawn round timber beams.
Mixed Oak
Unsawn- Fb1900, Ft1050, Fv170, Fcperp820, Fcll900,E1.2
No 1- Fb1550, Ft850, Fv170, Fcperp820, Fcll750, E1.2
No 2- Fb1300, Ft725, Fv170, Fcperp820, Fcll625, E1.2
No 3- Fb750, Ft400, Fv170, Fcperp820, Fcll350, E1

An SRTB can have no more than 3/10 radius sawn or shaved from 1 face
only, no more than 1/8" taper per foot.

If the log needs to be worked more than that it becomes a Wall Log.
The largest inscribed rectangle is drawn on the cross section and that
section is the beam.
A premium mixed oak wall log begins at Fb 1250, the wall log grades
end with Wall Log 30 at Fb550.

For a rectangular sawn timber refer to the NDS. Mixed oak Select
Struc, the best sawn timber, Fb1100, the unsawn round timber was
Fb1900.

Take care,
Don


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Ken Hume #23236 04/05/10 02:59 PM
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Thanks Ken. I figured out a formula for taper of my logs. Surprisingly it is very accurate! I guess because all the trees are growing in nearly identical conditions. Will look up moment of inertia right now. Thanks again.

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Thank you Don via Jim! 1/8 inch per foot taper eh? Hmmm, I have 1/3 per foot. dang it! Well, we shall find a way.

#23982 06/30/10 03:00 AM
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great..!


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