Timber Framers Guild Forums General General Forum Questions Support long hips from outside?

Got it, and thanks again Jim. Appreciate all the other advice too!

I'd still like to hear some more about those structural facias, and braced hips if you could Chris.

I have Derek, but those don't help support the hip outboard I don't think, and they wouldn't help with the lateral stability either because they only tie the roof structure to the beams, and not from the posts to beams (I could be wrong about this?).

putting ypur posts into the consrete is asking for trouble down the road.for example, here in Florida we use cypress a lot for fence posts and when placed in concrete even with sloping the top it lasts maybe 4-5 years.you will never be able to keep out all the moisture. however, when set on top of a concrete footing at the bottom of a 3' deep footing with a gravel and sand back fill it will last almost indefinately and also be as solid as concrete. if strength or resistance to up lift is your goal try anchoring metal post clips into the footing and bolt them on to the post.

Do you have any pics or drawings of those metal post clips you've used before Titmas?

My reason for setting the posts into the ground is to gain lateral stability without using knee braces.

You know, like I said earlier, any rot I've ever seen with posts set in to the concrete has always been at the surface, so my thinking is that with the concrete slope for drainage at grade, and the copper wrapped around the post, rot shouldn't be able to even start.

Joe:
The issue here is the movement of the wood, from summer to winter or dry season to wet season.
Wood moves, your copper flashing will not move the same, in my opinion.
This leads to gaps between the wood and copper.
Rain water will find its way between the wood and copper and get down into the pocket created by placing the wood into the concrete.
A concrete cup below grade with a piece of wood in, will let in water, and the wood will rot.
This is why they have code rules to prevent builders from doing this as it does happen.
You'll need to end the wood above grade and do all the concrete and rebar stuff you want below grade.
There are many hold down systems for posts to concrete.
Look at Simpson strong ties at: click here for link to Simpson Strong Tie site

You'll find lots of things that will work and be allowed by code rules.

Jim Rogers

You do have a point there Jim, but, I haven't been able to find any type of hardware that would give me the lateral stability, besides having something made up at a local steel place, (which I'm not against doing), it's just that I haven't seen a good design that wouldn't be too hard to install and which would look nice.

I'd like to see anyone's pictures or drawings of post bases that give that stability ..

Joe,
Your willingness to use a local steel fabricator makes post bottoms a small bucks breeze. See the guild project in 2003 at the Vermont School Barn raising and visit their site too. You will find barn red hinges on the post bottoms. The hinge leaf fixed to the concrete pier is bolted down with the bolts imbedded in the concrete. The upper leaf is lagged to the post bottom with some bitchithane rubber between the hinge and the post. There is a 3/8" or so lip around this upper leaf which mates with the other when the hinge is closed. After the frame is true here comes the welder to permanently join the hinge leaves together. Don't and won't move in any direction . The bolts & lags are 3/4" stock if I remember correctly. The pier top, the hinge, the post bottoms are well above any water/snow line.
You set up , insert the 3/8" hinge pins and push/pull the wall/bent up. If you search the pictures about the project, including the Mountain School website,you will find these bright red goodies in various levels of detail.
If memory serves me correctly Ed Levin was the responsible design engineer on these.

Dear Joe:
A structural fascia (SF)is one where it acts as a beam spanning between the hip and a designated rafter. This rafter is usually the first one that has a back span bigger than the cantilever (or is propped up by a bracket.) The connections can be hard to develop as the overhang becomes bigger. The SF supports the outboard end of the hip jacks that have little or no backspan. To overcome the connection problems, one can drop the hip below the plane of the rafters or use a hip much deeper than the rafters. The SF can then be supported from below at the hip.
Keep in mind that on a square hipped roof, when the over hang length exceeds 1/5 of the side of the supporting square, there is more weight outside the square than inside the square. The result of this is that without braces or skyhooks to support the overhang, you have uplift at the peak (this is where a brick cupola would come in handy.) As I mentioned before, on your proposed design, 3/4 of your roof area is outboard of your supporting square. Your structure is 3/4 of the the way to resembling the structure of an umbrella.

Regards,
Chris