Timber Framers Guild Forums General General Forum Questions Need old vertically sawn red oak timbers

Hi everyone;

I am having a hard time finding repair parts for a c.1720 saltbox plank house I am reassembling. I need two 8x10 16' vertically sawn red oak timbers with nice patina. Also, the 24 foot hewn pole rafters were cut out for a dormer. I could use eleven 24' purlins as rafters if they were 5" or bigger. A tough order to fill.

In consideriing new replacement parts, the owners would want the new timbers aged. I see that potassium permanginate (spelling?) may be used to darken timbers, but I have heard it can be used in explosives and may be hard to aquire. Does anyone know a source for potassium permanginate?

Thanks
Jim

Potassium Permanganate is also used to regenerate green sand filters which extract iron from water.
Here's one supplier I found with Google:
http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=427

For the vertically sawn look a chainsaw mill is probably the closest (unmodified) modern alternative. Logosol has a small list of owners available to demonstrate their chainsaw mills, it isn't well maintained but you might get lucky.
www.logosol.com

I have seen some bandmill cuts that look very similiar to up and down sawmill cuts. I have been thinking of trying to develop a band that will leave a coarser cut. Maybe grinding off every other tooth. It wouldn't cut as fast, but it may give the right look. A bandmill is certainly much more historic than a circle mill. Search this forum also. There was some mention of someone offering water powered milling somewhere in ME or NH. It may be an up and downer.

Dave

We were discussing that possibility on another forum, one thought was to set just a couple of adjacent teeth wider to creat a stronger line every time they came around. I'm not sure if anyone got around to trying it...

It's a bit less permanent than filing off teeth, wouldn't effect the cut speed much, and if it doesn't work then the option of grinding off teeth is still open.

OK here is something I do know!
I operate Taylor Mill in Derry NH. It is a up and down sawmill. Knocking a few teeth out of line on a bandsaw will produce marks on the wood but they will not look like up and down marks....because.....the bandsaw is traveling in one direction at speed (marks wvery close together). My saw make a similar mark on its way down as the log advances (1/4 inch per stroke) into the blade and another on its way up when the log is not moving.
Sorry I can not cut them for you, the carriage is only 12 foot and I have yet to cut hardwood.

Just my 2 cents worth:

In my many years in the restoration reconstruction field I have seen various approaches to problems such as you describe,I suggest that you try and purchase used timber, that can be resawn with a band mill. Place the newly sawn pieces of the correct dimension into place with the band sawn surfaces hidden. If you are looking for a muley sawn look then you need to acquire timbers with that particular type of original finish.

This problem of repairs to original structures is not a new one, but one has to remember that repairs did occur to the historic buildings from time to time as they aged due to weather and rot.

For instance the 1867 muley mill that I am familiar with needed siding replaced from time to time as well the raceways were continuously being replaced every 15 to 20 years over their lifetime so a newly inserted board or timber was by all means permitted historically. Another occasional replacement was the shingle roofs that look very new when first applied, but soon ages.

you need to sit down with whoever you are working for and explain to him that repairing with aged replacement parts is not an easy thing to do, or accurate in my prespective according to what really did happen historically.

NH

Back in ’01, I was down hewing and framing for Rondout in their effort to replicate the Herrling Sawmill. http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/2001/oct01/sawmill.htm

The small scantlings in the frame were to be sawn and being that they were replicating a muley, the toolmaks needed to be as close as possible, especially the “up and down” marks.

Their solution was so simple as to be almost genius, and looked so close that most “experts” would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

They fit out a LT15 with a simple power feed system, a gear reduction motor some pillow blocks and a and a shaft at either end and a simple wrap on a length of rope. ( wish I still had pictures )

Then they simply bent over one tooth on the band blade.

The steady feed timed the tooth so it scored a deep mark about every quarter inch.

I see a fair amount of U & D in my work and this really did look comparable.

The trick will be to find a band sawyer with a powerfeed, maybe somebody with a LT40 with all the bells and whistles, and to convince him to intentionally ruin a blade and experiment with feed rate till it looks right.

Best with it

What Will says is very possable. When I first was learning about finding old fence wire with my LT 40 I produced some saw marks just like Will is talking about. The old rusty wire would only dull one or two teeth and I was through it. One bent tooth would leave a pattern about 1 1/4" when cutting green red oak or about 3/4" in white oak & hickory. You may have to bend two or three teeth (evenly spaced around the blade) to get a 1/4" pattern. Tom

I have a WM LT40SH. Not long ago a spun a blade off and bent a tooth (I did not realize it at the time). When I put the blade back on and started cutting, I got just what you described. I groove is cut in the wood every pass of this tooth. The distance between grooves is based on feed rate. When cutting soft woods or narrow logs, you can keep the feed rate high and seperation between lines is about 2 inches. Slower feed rate could result in 1/2 inch seperation, or less.

Woodmizer has a rep in Maine, that also runs a mill. He might be able to do something for you.

Many years ago, a subdivision developer sided all the houses with vertical ship lap siding. He go a big load of it from one bandsaw sawmill. All of it had a pattern on it due to his blade hitting something and dulling it.
When anyone did any remodeling they always tried to match the ship lap siding but couldn't.
One builder came to me and asked me if I could match the siding.
I made a sample for him to take to the customer, by bending one tooth of my bandsaw sawmill out of line of the others.
He came back to me a few days later and said it was great but they didn't want a groove they wanted a hump. So I had to bend several teeth to "not" have any set so that the lumber would have a hump instead to a groove.
Then as mentioned, adjusted the feed rate to get the correct spacing.
What a pain doing this job.....
A couple of years later another remodeler was working in the same subdivision and found out about me doing that once and came over and asked me to do it again.
I did but I charged him more as it is very difficult to cut straight lines with a saw not set right.

Any current bandsaw sawmill should be able to reproduce the pattern you want if they are given a sample and are willing to try.

Good luck with your project.
Jim Rogers