Problems with Doug Fir Timbers

I could use some advice concerning a truckload of timbers I purchased for my house frame.

The bottom line is that the timbers arrived with a large number of woodborer holes and a moisture content that was much higher than advertised.

Of the two, the borers are my primary concern. I hate to think that I’m building-in creatures that could destroy my frame. I tried treating the timbers with BoraCare. But that product turned my timbers a nasty green color. I don’t want my frame to look like it’s cut from pressure-treated pine. I am now only treating the unseen surfaces.

The high moisture content is just extremely disappointing, since I purchased my timbers from this company primarily because of their supposed stability. I was told that the timbers would be sufficiently dry that any checks would not grow. In fact, 3/8" checks have opened up and many of the timbers have twisted like crazy. Working with twisted timbers is no fun at all.

(NOTE: The timbers have been stored inside an unconditioned building. No direct sun. The building stays much cooler than the ambient temp. All the timbers were properly stacked and stickered. They've been stored for approximately 12 months.)

I understand that, as a natural product, wood is going to have defects in it. What I don’t know is the level of defects I should have expected. I expected some wane, some splits and checks, and a certain amount of sapwood.

I didn’t expect the timbers to be infested with woodborers. And, because they were advertised as partially dried and very stable, I didn't expect them to twist and check like green lumber.

To those of you who have purchased timbers (Standing Dead Doug Fir, by the way) – Are these kinds of problems normal, or should I expect some type of remedy from the supplier?

Thanks, in advance.

Jon

No one has an opinion on this?

I'm just trying to gauge my own expectations.

My only experience has been with the purchase of rough lumber. I don't know if those same guidelines apply to the bigger sticks or not.

Any opinions or experiences would most welcomed.

Jon

It's possible that these wood borers will grow into a beetle and fly away. And usually they don't return as the adult female beetle lays the egg between the bark and the inner wood. If these timbers don't have any bark on them then the beetle most likely will not return.
The current worm holes you have will add character to your frame.
Can you hear them chewing the wood, at this time? If so you could try another type of treatment that doesn't discolor the wood. Try it on a small sample timber first before doing it on a large good piece.
If you don't hear any chewing or see new fresh sawdust between the timbers then it's possible they have already flown away...

Checks in timbers are part of what timber frames are all about. They will continue to dry and possible check until all the moisture is out of all of the wood. This could take years, depending on the actual sizes of these timbers and how many surfaces are exposed to the open. For example a corner post has only two side exposed to the air, a wall post has three sides exposed, and a middle bent post may have all four sides exposed.

Part of preventing twisting is proper stacking for support. Some people say 4' on center is enough, others use 2' spacing between support blocks.
Also, weighing down the pile, on top, with other lumber or something very heavy to press the pile would/should have helped. But it is possible that you're beyond that now.

Usually you cut the joints and erect the frame as soon as possible after purchasing your timbers to prevent the timbers from twisting..

Jim Rogers

Thanks Jim

A couple of keywords in your post struck chords that resonate in my head.
Partially air dry... if you want dry, this ain't it. This is a term used by people trying to not give a moisture content. It has no meaning and is not connected to any measured moisture content. Safe interpretation, green. If you want a moisture content, agree ahead of time and quantify it in the purchase agreement.

Standing dead... beetle or fire killed. Sometimes also used to mean that in the interval of time between when the chainsaw left the tree and when it hit the ground, it was standing and it was dead.

I don't understand the discoloration.

If moisture content is critical, meet the load with a meter and do not allow it to be unstrapped until you are satisfied.

Was it FOHC, or boxed heart?
Boxed heart DF will "misbehave" if it's not completely dry.

Don,

Thanks for the reply.

My bigger concern is the borers.

In buying Standing Dead timbers, did I unknowingly accept this risk? Or, do I have the right to expect the infested timbers to be replaced - much the same as I would expect the grocer to replace a piece of fruit that had worms in it?

And secondly, if the supplier is unwilling to provide replacements, should I use these timbers in my frame? I know that certain types of borers will not reinfest my timbers. But, other types will. I don't know how to quantify this risk.


The MC issue was mostly just a misunderstanding, I think.

I was told that the timbers "typically" have a MC in the high-teens to low-20's. No specific MC criteria was set.

From their point of view.... If they are not drying the timbers, they have no control over the MC.

From my point of view.... If you're going to advertise a range of MC, and make a sales pitch around how stable the timbers are because of that MC, you should deliver timbers that fall within that range. The timbers I bought had a MC close to 30%.

The bottom line on the MC is something like this: They shouldn't advertise something they can't consistently deliver, and I shouldn't have expected anything that wasn't explicitly specified in the contract.

Thanks for your time!

Jon

Clark,

The timbers are boxed-heart.

In a couple of the timbers that twisted badly, the heart did not run down the center of the timber. Instead, it might run from the lower-left corner on one end to the upper-right on the other. I think that was a big part of the problem.

But, as you said, most of the BH timbers were a little wild.

It's just another of those things that I'd do differently "next time."

Thanks for the reply!

Jon

Yes, I think you did unknowingly buy off on alot. These timbers were likely ungraded. Depending on the level of damage they may or may not make grade. That would be another one for next time. A structural timber here should be graded. If you are concerned as to whether the timbers are up to the design values and not comfortable making that decision, then a travelling grader would be money well spent. I don't think the supplier owes you anything but in good faith may be willing to swap out timbers that don't make grade.

I do agree that it feels like a bait and switch when I've seen the moisture content and "standing dead" claims meet reality in the customers eyes, its still caveat emptor in that area of trade unfortunately. It is your job to write any terms into the purchase documents. I don't mind any allowable "defect" or condition as long as the customer is informed and on board.

Sorry this isn't turning out as you hoped. I read some misunderstanding between buyer and seller that will be hard to overcome, especially since the timbers have been in your care for 12 months. Usually you get a few days to bring up disputes. Anyone selling standing dead should quiz the buyer hard because it always has lots more 'character' to deal with. For that reason I find I need to order more 'extra' sticks to be able to discard the odd wanker (usually 10% extra). Owner must be willing to accept some bug evidence and existing big checks - in exchange for a more stable wood.

Sounds like your 'dead' may have been caused by bugs rather than fire or other cause. Borer evidence is common and expected in SD timber, particularly fir, and yours might show more than 'usual'. No mill would agree to 'no bug evidence' unless you paid a ton for it and even then maybe not possible. Bugs should be gone if stick is well seasoned and quite dry. If you got lots of sapwood the bugs will show more and wood not as durable. I find more problems with ant nests started in big checks.

The high MC indicates a recently killed tree. Were they checked a lot off the truck? You should have seen 1/2" or better checks commonly (and blackened by dirt and sun) if the sticks were indeed dead and well seasoned on the stump. Typical SD fir or larch will be quite dry because it has been standing in the wind for years - stability one of the reasons I like it. If recently dead, all the fun movement happens when MC drops from 25 ish into the teens. Some movement would be expected since your MD weather quite a shock to the sticks.

Welcome to the wacky wood world.

Thanks for the reply, Randy.

Though I do feel a little bit mislead by the seller here, it's clear to me now that the fault was mine. They didn't deliver what they indicated they would, but I didn't specify any requirements.

As far as SD timbers being stable; that's the primary reason why I bought SD. But what I got were boxed-heart timbers at something like 30% MC..... and that's a long, long way from being stable.

(Really, that's my only beef with the SD folks. If they are going to brag about how stable their product is, they shouldn't deliver dripping-wet boxed-heart timbers.)

My timbers were straight and beautiful the day they arrived. No checks AT ALL. No twist or bow. There was more wane and edge damage than I cared to see, but that alone didn't seem like enough to complain about.

I got a little concerned when I stuck a moisture meter in them. But even then, I didn't see any reason to raise a complaint.

Now, even after careful storage, very few of them are not twisted. The worst of them are twisted nearly 30 degrees end-to-end. Some of the timbers that I laboriously straightened with a hand-held planer have twisted again with the change from winter to spring. Some timbers are bowed out 3/4" in the middle of a 16' beam. Raising day could be way too interesting.

I'm in the process of ordering the remaining required timbers (from a different vendor!), and replacements for the SD timbers that are now unusable. I'm getting FOHC, #1btr, selected for appearance, S4S, kiln-dried timbers for significantly less money than I paid for the rough, ungraded, boxed-heart, bug-infested, green, SD timbers 18 months ago.

In my experience, though buying Standing Dead timbers is an environmentally attractive concept, the reality is that you spend a lot more money for a far-inferior product.

jshaw,

Thanks for sharing your experiences, and for the follow up post. Sounds like you had the best intentions in specifying standing dead timber. Just remember no good deed goes unpunished.

FWIW, 30 degrees twist does seem very extreme, but 3/4" of bow in 16' is not insurmountable. I had some oak posts with that much bow and was able to use them. depends on whether they will be held back in place within the frame by other timbers, after you convince them to be there with ratchet straps and come-alongs. You are right though, it makes for an interesting raising when some of your post bottoms have to be strapped down to the sill, because the top plate is crowned 1". And a standing seam metal roof will really tell-on-you if you use rafters and purlins with lots of crown. Slate roofs will hide a lot though.

Good luck.