Timber Framers Guild

historic hewing questionnaire

Posted By: northern hewer

historic hewing questionnaire - 10/14/07 12:41 AM

this topic deals with my favorite topic "HEWING".

To that end I am asking those that can square timber by hand the "old" way drop by for a chat.

I welcome those that might like to learn to join in

Please sign in and tell everyone some of your experiences, and if you like ask a question and I will try and answer it to the best of my ability. If I can't I am sure that someone will jump in to help out.

It would be interesting to hear from people on other continents and in other countries that may be tuned in, don't worry about your English or spelling.



NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/15/07 12:25 AM

Hi all would be hewers and those with the calloused hands:

Due to no posts yet I have a question concerning the type of broadaxe that was used in the UK prior to British North America's colonization, I always wondered if the North American hewing axe was similar in shape and style to the British axe or did it develop along its own line? anyone out there like to comment.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/15/07 07:10 AM

Hi NH,
Probably the best person on our side of the pond to answer this question is Joe Thompson but until he happens along I will do my best to get the ball rolling.

One of the major differences between the UK / mainland Europe / USA and Scandinavia is that traditionally most framing in the UK was done using hardwoods (oak, elm) as opposed to softwoods (pine, larch) and this has a significant effect on the design of the axe blade employed. The cast steel softwood axes employed in North America have large wide blades (12") whereas UK blades were forged and would appear to have been much smaller (6 - 8") but this might not allways have been the case. The Bayeux tapestry shows hewing axes being used by the Normans to build ships for the invasion of England in 1066 and these axes were "Tee" shaped. One of these axe heads can be seen in the Winchester city museum with the blade being about 1.5 - 2" wide and 8 - 10" long with a curve in the blade at both ends presumably to prevent "digging in". Care needs to be exercised with drawing wide spread conclusions about the use of this type of axe throught England. Despite its name The Bayeux tapestry was thought to have been made in England and not France as one might expect. If the tapestry had been made in France then the axe illustrated would be more likely French in design than English.

Examination of hewing signatures left on older timber frame buildings (1300 - 1500's) seems to show that fairly narrow scoops are removed 2 - 4" wide and so axe heads are likley to be narrower than the old "Norman" or Saxon style. Some of the early hewing work examined is done so finely that it can be very difficult to see how this was done using the naked eye alone and so one has to resort to making crayon rubbings to pick up signatures. The idea that hewing produces deep score marks and quite obvious scoops as can be seen in North America is not particularly evident here in England though occasionally "accidents" happen.

If you check out :- http://www.kfhume.freeserve.co.uk/pages/publicationspages/finland2001pages/finland2001frame.htm you will see a picture of a Finnish hewer proudly displaying his favorite axe that he used to square the logs for building a church.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/15/07 11:54 AM

The last time I did any amount of hewing was at the International Plowing match in 2006. I had a lot of fun and managed to attract a lot of attention there. Did my best to explain the process and talk about timberframing and log building in general. I am an oddball in that I hew with the log at hip hieght, not on the ground as was done in early ontario, so I had to explain that as well.
I think the broadaxe is an awesome tool, and I think that the broadaxe finish suits timber better than any other.
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/15/07 07:04 PM

you know I started out hewing on the ground and my back told me it did not make any sense to do it that way. Just finished reading "Lumber Kings and Shantymen: Logging and Lumbering in the Ottawa Valley" and it had some pics of old timers hewing at the hip level simply because the trees where so big!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/15/07 11:54 PM

Hi everyone
Thanks Ken for your very knowledgeable insite into hewing techniques in your neck of the woods, and also the lovely picture of a Swedish Hewer, the axe is very different--from the picture it is hard to see if there is much sweep in the handle. I would really like to take it in my hands and experience the feel and balance of that type of tool, and maybe (try) and use it

Hello to you Mark I remember the pictures that you posted awhile back, and they were great, I know from experience that however you portray an historic subject or object to the general public it is wise to really do your homework otherwise you can really get sidwinded by someone that has some knowledge on the subject. If you can feel confident that what you are doing or portraying is as correct as possible, then you can feel more at ease and maybe learn from a good exchange of information. The International plowing match is visited by many from all over the world and probably posed a formidable stumbling block that you probably encountered manytimes. I would have loved to have been with you at that time.

You are correct the trees then were quite large, and that is why I have said many times before that it was impossible to elevate even logs that could square say 12" in 60 feet, these were pretty large trees.
Please be careful hewingwith a elevated log, in my opinion the ark of the axe could continue down towards your legs or feet. Mark above I know hews with the log elevated but I believe he uses a short handle to keep control, please correct me if I am wrong Mark

Well thanks for the interesting info guys

NH

Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/16/07 12:25 AM

OMG, I don't portray much... I hew at hip level with a short handle(and knee pads!!), for fun and rarely even for wages, but I don't know much about historic re-creation, just about squaring logs.
And yes, it would have been sweet to have you at the plowing match, maybe another time???
By the way, try a goosewing sometime, if you get the chance (-:
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/17/07 01:45 AM

Hello all;

I have little experience hewing so I have some questions.

1. Were adzs actually used to smooth timbers? I occasionally read books which refer to how timbers were converted using a broad ax and then smoothed with an adz. However, all hewing marks I have ever looked at have an arc to the signature. I do not know how to swing an adz with a sideways arc so I presume all smoothing of the timbers was done with an axe. Here is a nice example from about 200 years ago in Maine.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/jimderby/IMG_2967.jpg

2. What are large bladed broad axes used for. In most of the signatures I have seen the cutting edge of the axe was around six inches long. I have seen much larger axes.

3. Hewing marks are always scalloped telling me the cutting edge was beveled. What are the axes with one flat side used for?

I reciently learned that just one axe company in the early 20th century was producing 300 different types of axe heads. There were certainly a large number of very specialized uses of axes.

Just for fun, below is a a photo of an elegant square rule joint. In my thinking the post was hewn with an axe and the joint relieved with an adz. The girt was cut out decades ago.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/jimderby/IMG_2838.jpg

Just one more photo. Here is a double gunstock post. I cheated by starting with a 10 x 14 and hewed the lower gunstock just to carry the girt in a barn repair. I am not aware of double gunstock posts being used in barns but there is precident in house frames in Connecticut.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/jimderby/IMG_2985.jpg

Thanks;
Jim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/18/07 12:38 AM

HI JIm:

thanks for joining the conversation, and the series of pictures that you took time to add to your post.

I will give it my best shot--
Q#1--By all means timbers were hewn by hand to a square dimension, that is close to what was needed, for most purposes that is the way they were used, but in some cases for example exposed timbers in a home, or in many old country dutch barns the special beams like the anchors and their posts were adze finished. the surfaces will show the unmistaken marks of the adze blade, and should if done properly be undulating in appearance, and no hewing marks will remain.

In exposed ceiling timbers, say in a early log, or timberframe home, after the adze has did its job, the lower edges would be beaded by hand to round out the appearance, when good workmanship was the name of the game.

In some swing beam barns the swing beams only were adze finished because I suppose they were the main focus of attention.

As far as your photo I would say that the timber was a bit off square, and with the timber laying on the ground and standing on top of it, an adze was employed to remove the excess wood on the lower corner. You will notice that not much was removed on the upper corner, and the tell tale rough scoring marks (2) remain slightly visible, and some of the regular scoring marks. The tradesman who did the adzing used an overlapping type of repititious swings and created an unusual appearance, in my opinion it is definitely an adze that did the final work, what do others think?

Q#2--In my opinion axes with less than 9 or 10" in width would not qualify to be called hewing axes but rather hatchets, what you may have seen was timbers squared with a regular felling axe.
All the hewing axes in this area would have been 10 to 14" wide on the cutting edge and have only one bevel, the side towards the timber would have been flat, now just a minute--nearly flat, and I think that this may answer another of your questions, the flat side of a hewing axe is not flat but slightly rounded and will be only noticeable if placed on a flat surface, this is for a reason the centre if the blade will take wood nicely, and not bite in at the edge. A broadaxe in an experienced hand will produce a surface very near an adzed surface, and will have an undulating surface texture, and be hard to tell the difference. I have pondered over many timber finishes to try and acertain what historic tool in fact created the final finish, not an easy call sometimes. this type of scrutiny only comes into play when doing an exact restoration and having to put on new timbers an original finish.
Q#3--the company that produced so many axes no doubt was shipping internationally, and knew what type of axe the population was using in that country, so it required a great variety of styles to be welcomed as an import.

#4--You are right on the money I would say the joint was formed by all means using and adze, if I was doing that joint it would have appeared very similar, and I would have used an adze rather than chisels and slicks

#5--I am not familiar with gunstock joints so I will leave this up to others to comment on but nice pictures

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and if there are other examples out there that need to be commented on please lets see them.

Please don't be afraid to comment on my best shot at an explanation it is by friendly chatter that we can learn, and I am always willing to learn, and I want others to also.

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/19/07 12:35 AM

Hi Ken

I would be interested in passing a few words with Joe Thompson, and comparing notes on his hewing technique, and in particular what type of axe he uses, and how he props up, and what height his log is, prior to hewing. Does he have an Email address?.

It is interesting what you said about axe size compared to type of wood specie being used. Over here the wider hewing axes were also used for hardwood hewing, I had never thought or heard of smaller axes specifically for oak or elm.

One thing that I have noticed though is that the heavy head will bite into and split hard wood quite easily.

I will admit though that white pine was used where it was plentiful, but on farms that had no pine, then ash or elm was used to produce the frameworks.

One other thing that is interesting is that Britain was the main supplier of axes (and axe styles) to the New World prior to industry here in North America catching up. Even well after and into the late 1800's Sheffield Steel produced some of the finest chisels, axes, augers and many other products, and was ranked equal to the Swedish manufacturers in this regard.



It would be nice to hear from historic tradesmen in other areas that have also researched the craft of hewing timber, and the type and design of the tools.

I wonder Ken if during your training, you had access to any old hardware catalogues that date to the early 1800's that would show the various axe styles exported from Britain during that period?

I expect that the forgeries in this country as they became established, copied styles of the imported axe heads, but from what I can make out never really were able to copy the quality of the inset toolsteel cutting edge

anyway thanks for the input

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/07 12:05 AM

hi Ken
I had a good chance to look closely at your report on Finland and area as well as the pictures of each stop.

The finish on the surface of the logs were interesting, and as you mention probably from the double bevel broadaxe and the angle of the blade to the wood as it is being used. It would be neat to try on out
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/07 12:13 AM

Your comment ken about the original surfaces seem to having been produced with a single bevel blade is interesting, I wonder just what percentage of the antiques in their museums are single bladed types versus the double bladed ones. They seemed to think that the use of the doble blade type was okay for the reconstruction of the church.

anyway a very good article and nicely presented

NH
Posted By: Kevin M

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/24/07 02:03 PM

I would classify as "those that might like to learn". I fall into the owner-builder group although I have no timber framing experience yet.

I am looking to build at least one small timber frame barn on my property in the near future and was hoping that I could get some guidance and/or direction from the experienced crafts people on this forum.

What would all of you recommend be my first course of action for learning the basics? What are some good resources that I can use to get myself started; workshops, books, trial and error?

I would like to build using the trees that I have on the property already so my first specific question regards felling/drying. What sort of timeline and order of operations am I looking at in terms of felling a tree, rough hewing it, and drying it?

Sorry for the barrage of questions!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/25/07 01:01 AM

Hi Kevin:

I am quite willing to work with you and to that end I will send you some information

NH
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/25/07 05:17 PM

Kevin,


I think hewing and then using such timbers for a TF structure will leave you very frustrated. I would suggest you start with something like the Sobon shed with sawn timbers and then consider a log structure for hewn timbers first.

B.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/07 01:01 AM

Hi Kevin

good comment Bruce, and one that I strongly endorse. the rough texture of hewn material would be a challenge even for some experienced framers to use.

Having said that though I believe that there are those out there that have accomplished some very high goals, it just depends on the individual and their desire to produce something with their signature.

Over the years I have experienced couples that would come to me and say that they were going to build a log home, I would look them over and to myself say well maybe--then after 2 or 3 years thy would reurn and say that they had completed their home and were living in it, I must say it sure surprised me to say the least.

I think that anyone with enough desire can attain their goal taken step by step with help from those around that can be of assistance.

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/07 01:02 AM

Hi Kevin

good comment Bruce, and one that I strongly endorse. the rough texture of hewn material would be a challenge even for some experienced framers to use.

Having said that though I believe that there are those out there that have accomplished some very high goals, it just depends on the individual and their desire to produce something with their signature.

Over the years I have experienced couples that would come to me and say that they were going to build a log home, I would look them over and to myself say well maybe--then after 2 or 3 years thy would reurn and say that they had completed their home and were living in it, I must say it sure surprised me to say the least.

I think that anyone with enough desire can attain their goal taken step by step with help from those around that can be of assistance.

NH

Posted By: Kevin M

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/07 03:15 PM

Bruce,

Thank you for your input. This is a long term project/goal for me, I am not in a rush to get the building built and would rather learn the craft the long/traditional/correct way.

I would classify myself as someone who does not frustrate very easily and has a lot of patience. With that said, I plan on learning in small, incremental steps. Due to the fact that such work is skill and labor intensive I am looking to learn the hewing and the framing simultaneously rather then sequentially; so I am planning on doing some TF work on cut timbers just to get the technique down first while I actually cut and hew the timbers.

I saw on the Whipple Tree site several of the workshop projects were small assemblies just to get the basics of the joinery.

I appreciate the recommendation of the Sobon shed. I will look into that.
Posted By: Kevin M

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/07 03:22 PM

Is it significantly different planing out the faces of the joint surfaces on hand hewn timber then squaring the faces on cut lumber? Or is there something else that makes the roughness of the hand hewn timbers more of a challenge to work with?

My wife and I do have some lofty goals, and I am not above admitting that my ambitions are beyond my (current) reach. But, again, we are looking to do exactly what you say; small step by step achievements while taping the resources we have available to us and taking the time to learn how to do what we need to.

Kevin

Edit: Edited for clarity.
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/07 08:03 PM

When using square rule layout on hewn timbers, the framing square becomes more like a transit, you have to sight down the timber to be sure that you are square to the edge you're working with, rather than feel the edge as in sawn material.
I prefer to use lines on hewn material(and sawn material for that matter). I place level and plumb lines on the timber ends, then snap chaulk lines on the faces. If you don't want to see chalk lines on your timbers, you would need to either plane off the chalk after layout, or use a regular piece of string that is stretched over the face during layout.
Cutting is also different. In sawn material, you can more or less use the surface of the timber for the circular saw base/mortiser base, but in hewn stuff you will have to be more careful and sometimes use a shim with the mortiser.
I would be able to teach you what I know about hewing at one of the whippletree framing courses, if you'd like to visit Canada sometime....
http://www.wpltree.ca/workshopindex.htm
Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/07 09:24 PM

Kevin,

One the people I learned to hew from is in Maine. Here's his website:
http://www.mudpond.net/
He's a great guy, good teacher, and his book is good as well. He does lessons, and he's also at the common ground fair. I met him at a Guild event, and having hewed only in the summer now, I don't recommend it. At all.

Brad


Posted By: Kevin M

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/07 12:29 AM

Hello Brad,

Thanks for the reference! I will definitely have to look into his book.

So, you don't recommend hewing at all? What difficulties in particular have you experienced or what haven't you liked about it? I notice that you are in Mass, where did you get your tools for hewing?

Kevin M.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/07 01:29 AM

Hi Kevin:

Mark gave you some very good information concerning the difference between the two types of timber surfaces.
The hewn surface is definitely alot more challenging to work with, and it will separate the men from the boys.

Having taught traditional timberframing courses using hewn material that as a group we prepared as part of the course, I have seen good tradesmen walk away from the layout work on the rough surfaces, saying that it took too much concentration.

To me I enjoy working with the hewn timbers, and in nearly every case the students would tell me that each time they now look at an old barn, home, or outbuilding that was created in years gone by, how they appreciate the work that must have went into its construction.

and Brad I also am really interested in your comment about not recommending hewing, especially when you took the time to attend a course and learn the skill. Could you broaden out your comment alittle I am sure for those that are viewing this thread.

thanks to everyone for joining in

NH

Posted By: mo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/07 02:54 AM

"The hewn surface is definitely alot more challenging to work with, and it will separate the men from the boys."

With all due respect, I think that finding the purlin clip angle for a 8/12 pitch meeting a 12/12 pitch at a hip with 105 degree plates in plan separates.......

by the way I like hewn timbers, very rustic. How long does it take to hew an 8x8x10 timber (if you are efficient and precise) assuming that the diameter of the log is just big enough to accommodate the 8x8?
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/07 12:29 AM

hmmmm
one hour or less in pine, two hours or more in oak.
provided i've had my wheaties, of course.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/07 12:46 AM

Hi Mo and others:

I am sure Mo that you are referring to using sawn surface timbers, try to do the same complicated layout using rough hewn surfaces, I am sure that there will be heard some muttering under their breath.

\NH
Posted By: jim haslip

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/07 12:51 AM

Quote:
provided i've had my wheaties, of course.


or Brador??
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/07 03:24 AM


I actually prefer oatmeal porridge.
hewing is a lot of fun for me. particularily hewing a long straight log in the forest where the tree falls.
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/07 04:13 AM


thought i should put a pic in for the adze as well
(-:
Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/07 04:15 PM

I meant I don't recommend hewing in the summer. It's hot.

And for axes, I've used the new Gransfors axes, and several antique axes. I much prefer the finish of a single bevel, but I'm still looking for my perfect axe (certainly not as big as NH's). There are some pretty good antique stores in Maine.

I've also veneer hewed (I call it that) a lot of timbers. I cut the square rule joinery first, then skimmed about 1/8" off with a broad axe. Still sucks real bad in the summer with no shade.
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/07 06:54 PM

Yo TW....

I started out with a gransfors and felt it a bit light weight for the butt end of logs so I emailed them and they forged a custom axe for me!

It looks awesome and is heavier, bigger face, etc and I have yet to try it out!

I do have some nice pine logs in the yard at the moment but no project needing a hewn log.
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/07 10:27 PM

Bruce,

you have got to post some photos of the custom Gransfors!

If you would like me to, you can email them to me and I'll put them up.

I love my gransfors, but I wish it had about another pound to it.

gabel
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 12:46 AM

Hi Mo and others:

"time it takes to hew an 8" by 8" timber from scratch"

It would take me longer to hand hew the above log than what Mark says he can do it in, but then he might be using a chain saw to cut vertically to the line prior to hewing, that I don't know.

For me using the scoring axe to rough score the log prior to hewing will take more time, also I make two passes on each side a rough hewing pass to within 3/4" of the line, and then the finishing pass scoring at 3" to 4" intervals, then removing the scored material right down to the line. Done properly it will leave a surface that shows the bite of the axe at the closer intervals, and once in a while you might see the rough scoring mark at a wider intervals. A good hewer will produce a surface with very few of the scoring marks visible, and to produce an authentic hewn surface you have to follow each step faithfully without skipping any of the above steps. I estimate it would take me 2 hours or about 30 minutes per side to produce an 8" by 8" timber.

I realize that many of you will likely turn to the chainsaw to help speed up the process, or "veneer" skim a sawn surface as suggested above but it is unlikely that you will produce the kind of surface that passes a close inspection by a knowledgeable person. If you are satisfied so be it it is your call, but in closing I will only say that you should at least know the feeling of having completely produced a surface using the basic tools available at that time, that way you can compare the differences in the finishes of the two produced surfaces, using different methods.

Also there is something about a hewn timber that makes it unique, the variations in squareness, the slightly larger or smaller measurements all along its length, and sometimes slight windings,a few axe marks here and there, little chunks of wood that were dislodged by the strike of the axe(s), these are the things that make a hewn timber beautiful to look at and contain your signature.

Thanks for all your great comments, and those beautiful pictures of your axe collection Mark, thanks for putting them on!!

NH
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 02:15 AM

Gabel,

See if I can post this smile It is a smaller image than what would show much detail but you get an idea of the size compared to a standard broadaxe from them.

I can try and find you a high res pic over the weekend if needed.

And yes....I ordered two! One for Timberframin' Norm who lives locally and teaches me alot smile



I just found the original pic they emailed me.....it was 2080 SEK per axe, they are 5 lb heads and 9" face! Or about $320 USD now.
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 02:20 AM

NH:

I spent a year 'training' getting into top notch (parden the pun) shape when I knew I was going to hew the second story logs for my house.

I could hew 24' logs both sides of pine with an 18" butt in 2 hours but that included scoring with a chainsaw.

The limiting factor of hewing is not strength, sharp tools take care of that, but cardio capacity!

I could hew 2.5 logs a day before I could not lift my hands again and then proceeded to eat everything I could find to replenish lost energy.
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 02:31 AM

on hewing time:
my reply was based on the phrase
" the diameter of the log is just big enough to accommodate the 8x8? "
and based on using only a scoring axe and a broadaxe.
(-:
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 07:12 AM

Hi Bruce,

I am interested in your custom hewing axe order with Gransfors and would like to get one of these axes myself.

Can you provide us with a contact name and email for Gransfors plus also maybe an order reference or model number so that we can place orders for the identical custom made axe.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 12:34 PM

Ken,

Most certainly!

Anna-Karin@gransfors.com was my contact and here is what I wrote: "I have a model 1900 axe, right handled and with standard scissor sharpening. Would you be able to forge a similar axe to that with a 9" face and 2 lbs heavier head with a 2" longer handle?"

As you know the fine folks at gransfors initial their work so I can see who the blacksmith was who made them. Maybe Anna-Karin will remember my order but this was all I sent them and you see what they sent me back!

B.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/07 03:13 PM

Hi Bruce,

My enquiry is now with them and I will post a note here when they advise me the price and delivery to ship to England.

Thank you for that advice and happy hewing !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: timber brained

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/01/07 09:17 PM

This is my kind of thread. I am addicted to hewing and the axe in general is my favorite tool to use. I try to stay safe and traditional and hew the log low to the ground but sometimes I feel the need to change my body position and the subsequent stress by hewing at hip level with a shorter handled, lighter broad axe. I also prefer single bevel as it is like a large chisel. I am with NH as I like to make a score with a heavy standard axe , then a rough hew to about 3/4" of the score line and finish with a more accurate hew to the line. NH is totally correct about the little character "defects" that make a timber unique and beautiful. I am much slower than you guys as I do it for fun and spend a lot of time making little adjustments as I go along based on the shape of the log, at the same time I do try to get a log at least rough hewed on all four sides in the same day, which brings me to a question of mine, but I will start a new post as it is more specific and this thread is already quite lengthy. tb
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/01/07 11:45 PM

Hello Hewers;

I have yet to see edge marks left on a historic hewn timber which look like it was made by an adz. All of the marks I have looked at have an arc to the swing, as shown by the nicks in the blade, and if the blade did not exit the cut you can see that the cutting edge is rarely perpindicular to direction of the swing. Below is a photo of an ax mark from about 150 years ago which shows what I am saying.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/jimderby/IMG_3188.jpg

My question is were adzs ever used to dress timbers?

Another photo I will include is one with two axs laid on two collar beams from the same carrage house in the position the marks show that the axs stopped during hewing. (the third beam in the photo is under the handles to keep the axs in position).

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/jimderby/IMG_3179.jpg

Am I correct to think that one beam was hewn close to the ground and the other was elevated?

Thanks
Jim

Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/02/07 03:36 PM

Jim,

As to your second question, you can get both of those angles to your stop marks if you are hewing somewhere around knee height.

Much higher or lower and it's one or the other.

And I've never seen adzed timber either, so I would be interested to hear and see conclusive evidence of it.

cheers,

gabel
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/06/07 01:05 AM

Hi everyone on this slant to the hewing topic,

Well I personally have seen many examples of adze finished timbers, especially those that were exposed on the ceilings of homes. These timbers are usually very smooth, with an undulating surface texture, and in many cases were beaded on the lower 2 corners with a hand plane.

I have studied your photos closely, and I personally came to the conclusion that what you think are axe marks are really overlapping adzing marks. This type of finish can be the product of using the adze with a slight tip to the blade, and working at an angle to the surface.

Also what you believe are marks on the edge of the axe blade are really the divisions between the overlapping marks of the adze.

Now this is just my observations, and I respect your comments, it would be nice to hear from other knowledgeable professionals who might have an opinion in this area of expertise.

It is just this type of observations that are very important in historic restoration and reconstruction, if you are trying to do exact reproduction of surfaces.

NH


Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/06/07 07:09 AM

Hi Northern Hewer,

You may well be correct in your observations.

A few years back during building the TFG pavillion at Keene I recall watching Paul Russell using an adze to remove the excess above and below the the faces of a tenon and he even finished the tenon faces with the same tool. The part being worked on was placed on the ground and held down by the foot. During the examination of any old buildings this practice would not immediately be obvious since the tenon faces are concealed from view.

If I were applying a chamfer to the lower edges of a floor joist I would more likley use a hand axe to make discrete cuts and then use a draw knife to clean between the cuts down to the required profile. The stops at either end would be done using a chisel.

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/11/07 01:48 AM

Hi Ken
It is always nice to hear from you, and I enjoy your input as I suspect others also do.

I also have created traditional chamfered corners on vertical exposed posts, and I in turn did the end cuts which were not a 45% but rather a rounded fancy ending to the chamfered edge, this I created with a small draw knife. I used the draw knife pretty well to do the whole operation.

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/11/07 02:03 AM


To everyone on this thread:

Just to pursue the adzing topic a bit more. I have had access to many examples of adzed finished surfaces that were hand hewn, the reason for the special finish on the surfaces seemed to be linked with the special position of the timbers in the structures, and the tremendous amount of work put into their fabrication.

The 2 examples that come to my mind are the anchor beams in the Dutch Barns at UCV which are 14" by 24" by 30feet, and the large 20" sq. by 30 foot beams spanning above the wooden guides supporting the upper end of 1846 Muley vertical saw blade also at UCV. In both these cases the beams were the only ones nicely adzed and finished in the individual timberframes.

Other than that the exposed undersides of the second storey floor joists usually small rectangular timber would be adzed and then hand planed and beaded on the lower corners.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/11/07 02:12 AM

To go along with this thread and one that I have had to deal with in the past was the actual hewing of large diameter timbers.

The large timbers that I refer to in the forgoing posts were very large round timbers, I suspect the logs that they were produced from would have to have been somewhere between 40 and 50 inches in diameter to square out perfectly square the final timbers required.

these timbers would be placed on a work bed of 6" square to begin the process of squaring and if I were to stand there and look at these huge logs their tops would have been close to level with my eyes.

I ask for comment now on how you would proceed if you were given the task of hewing these timbers, and the only tools that you had to use were historic tools of that time.

NH
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/11/07 03:21 AM

I would split(rive) as much material as possible, in the longest lengths possible. To do this I would score in maybe ten feet from the base and see how well the sides would split off from the timber....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/12/07 01:44 AM

Hi Mark:





Thanks for responding with your solution, I suspect for the first step in the hewing process of these large logs.

Splitting large sections off the outside circumference of the logs, in my books sounds like a reasonable way to move forward quickly.

I know in one barn that I examined that had a swing beam, (which for those that are not familiar with the term is a very large beam that spans one side of a barn floor, and is usually 9 or 10 inches square on the ends but at the centre is maybe 9" or 10" by 24" in height), now this barn had very large floor planks that were split out on one side, and the upper sides were flattened and smoothed off with an adze. These could very well have came off the large timber that was procured for the swing beam. These planks were very thick and uneven in thickness along their lengths, and were over 3o" in width. I could also be wrong though in my assumption, and these planks could have been split specially for the flooring sequence of the construction of this very early barn. One thing that I am basing this assumption on is that the length of the planks were 10 feet shorter than the swing beam.

Now I ask the question Mark, say that this large log was procured for you and you only had one log no spares, would you feel confident enough to continue on with your action plan? and if so what type of tools would be needed and used, given that you only had the historic variety of that period.

Mark thanks again for your input and your solution as it unfolds.


I ask other knowledgeable people on this thread to jump in with their solution given that they were chosen to head up the construction of one of these buildings, and were also given the raw material, manpower and capital to prepare this structure in a historic correct fashion, (no cheating) complete with these large timbers for their respective places in the timberframes.


Nh

Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/12/07 01:21 PM

Sure, riving can be controlled, it doesn't have to be a big pop. Especially in pine, which is probably the species. The split needs to be directed from the top to the bottom of the tree. In other words, score in 8 or 10 feet from the bottom and begin the split here, not at the bottom. Start with a couple of steel wedges and a nice long strong froe or flat iron bar of some kind. If there is lots of wood to come off, make multiple splits, or at least two splits so that you can see how the grain is going to run before you get close to your timber. Once the split is begun with iron wedges, have some wooden ones on hand and leapfrog the wedges along the split. If the split gets moving in the wrong direction, it's time to bring out the scoring axe and stop the rive by scoring in to the problem spot and restarting the split a bit further from the timber.
Are you actually doing this at UCV? I might be tempted to make a trip down and volunteer some help. Would be fun to chop a big one.....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/13/07 01:28 AM

That is a great response Mark, I sure enjoyed your plan, and given the opportunity to lead a group I am sure that it would be a great display and one that many would enjoy immensely.

I have been retired now for a few years, but when I was active in my restoration and reconstruction role at UCV I took on many challenging projects over the years that necessitated a great deal of research and I might add head scratching. Not everything dealing with historic restoration is straight forward, solutions are found not only using research but I often called on other professionals in the field who might have knowledge or who could offer help.

I never handled or worked with logs larger than 36" in diameter so this exercise in talking about hewing logs larger than that I hope is helpful to those coming behind me.

One thing that I have found out though is that there is not much help out there when the going gets rough, Many for instance can say that they have hewn, but as you increase thesize and length of the logs then that is where the helpful information starts to dwindle.

My group at UCV put together many handson demonstrations and reconstructions, and I believe the most enjoyable ones were when we were hewing on the large 45' hemlocks and pine that ended up squaring 12" full length. Even the Amish folks would come with their families to watch, many saying that the tradition of hewing was disappearing gradually in their area.

Anyway thanks again for your reply, and I will leave you with one question:

Do you think that it would be possible to split off large planks in the order of 24 feet, and about 6" in thickness?

Maybe others could join in this chat as well

NH
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/07 02:45 AM

Hi NH

I have no experience riving anything longer than four feet long or ten inches diameter. Now I am curious about large riving.

Speaking of riving, I am disassembling a federal period cape and the studs used for the second floor walls were two inch planks split to 4" to 6" widths, who cares if the sides are uneven.

Back to the adzing questions. How do you stand to adz diagonally across a beam? I have never seen a skewed adz, is there such a thing? I still do not understand how to consistantly swing an adz with a sideways arc.

I look forward to visiting UCV sometime!

Thanks;
Jim

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/07 06:33 PM

Hi Jim

Thanks for jumping in with your remarks about now being interesting in riving large planks or pieces of lumber.
Maybe we can come up with some responses that will fill that need.

It is very hard to explain how adzing is done it is alot easier to show the technique at least for me. It is also a very dangerous job, (adzing) when tried by someone that has no prior experience. One of the reasons is that you are working in between your feet. I do have some good footage of adzing that I put together for a lad out in Utah a while back and Personally I think that to see is worth a thousand words.

It was neet that you ran across the rough studs manufactured from rived material, those old timers were able to do alot of things with rough material weren't they!, and they didn't need a architect or an engineer to lead them along, just common sense and the need, and help from those gone before them.

NH



Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/16/07 02:07 AM





At this time I would like to suggest my approach to riving or splitting large planks from the sides of a large tree like that above, destined to become a squared hewn timber.

I would roll this log up on good stout bed pieces at least 4-- 6"by6"'s placed about 8 feet apart, making sure that they are level, and parallel to one another.

After layout of the timber on the ends of the log, I would extend the lines to the top and after removing some bark I would snap a chalk line full length on both sides. I then would take the hewing axe and flatten as much of a surface as possible without scoring on both outside faces. After this was completed I would measure in at least 6" on both sides, and snap another line this would be the splitting line. Like Ken above I would work along this line with steel and wood oak wedges to open up a preliminary riving line.

I would then turn the log over and repeat the process on the under side. If you place the wedges carefully you should be able to turn the log easily, but the bed pieces need to be long enough.

Carful observation of the splitting lines would have to be part of the process.

Using consistently wider wedges should eventually split off the a large plank on both sides.

This completed smaller planks then could be rived on the other 2 sides.

traditional hewing would finish out the surfaces, in the end producing some lovely wide heavy planks, some narrower ones, and 1 lovely hand hewn timber.

I would welcome and invite comments on my suggestion

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/17/07 09:30 PM

Hi everyone on this thread:

The suggestions above that refer to spliting large planks for various needs in the early times was necessitated by the need for flooring in barns and other areas that required stout carrying capabilities. These large planks can be seen as surviving examples and no doubt were split out at that time.

One idea that I do have pertaining to the splitting of large planks was that the tree was split right through the centre giving you (2) halves to work with, and then quartered or split in different ways, much as the splitting of rails for fencing. this would result inno hewn timber, and the tree in question would be for splitting only. Splitting would be carried out with smaller dimension timber, and would no doubt be easier to work with.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/19/07 01:06 AM

To get back to my original subject of historic or traditional hewing, many times over the last few years of chatting with various individuals, it seems that many admantly lay claim to the doctrin of hewing timber in an elevated position, or higher up than bed pieces on the ground.

I would like to pursue this line of thought for the next little while. I personally was taught to hew at or near ground level, and over the years I never was challenged by anyone that came by where I was working, and many thousands did.

As the years rolled by I was compelled to do extensive research on everything that I did, and proper hewing technique fell into this category. Many of the old texts that I had access to, described and in many cases were accompanied by descriptive plates on groups as they worked at their trades. From these various sources I could set up displays in woodworking as close to being historically accurate as I could make them.

Some of the older texts were of British origin,and \or of very early American settlement. I was portraying 1860, and I realize that techniques change in relation to the year, and the nationality of the peoples who arrived in waves of immigration from various countries. these founding people influenced these changes damatically but they in turn would adapt new ideas quickly.

Does anyone have portraits, or other knowledge of the techniques of historic hewing when it comes to the height that was used if not in this country then in other countries?. I believe that this one topic would be very interesting to those that wish to pursue hewing in their lives for whatever purpose.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/21/07 02:33 AM

Well I guess it is time to shut down this thread for now thanks to everyone that joined in and chatted, and I hope that some good ideas were put forward to help those that dropped by silently for alook

Happy hewing

NH
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/07 01:48 AM


NH –

I’d been meaning to plug into your thread for some while now, and hope you don’t mind my doing so, despite your having officially called it done.

This particular call for action caught my eye in a quick fly by, when you posted it and I wanted to speak to it despite the delay.

I know of a few historic images of folks hewing high, both are Continental, one medieval, one early Twentieth Century. The latter is a photo of two men engaged in the two man scoring technique I often use and which I believe I’d alluded to in an earlier hewing thread, it can be found in - The Craft of Log Building - A Handbook of Craftsmanship in Wood - by Hermann Phelps – The former is an image represented in a stained glass window in Chartres Cathredral, it also shows two men hewing, one on either side of the same waist high log. I do have a post card of this panel stowed somewhere too safe to find.

I hew high, and couldn’t do otherwise if I wanted to, my back would object too loudly to ignore. I suspect, then as now, pain and the need to avoid it, would have driven some people to do the same, perhaps even counter to what were considered the norms to their locale.

I also hew left handed, though with the ax on my left, what most consider rightie, though in my case my left hand is forward. My earliest hewing experiences were solo self teaching exercises, like hewing high, I simply did what felt natural. In everything I do my workpiece is on my left, adjacent to my dominant hand. I also suspect doing what felt natural was as common in the past. As supposed left handed axes are found in numbers far greater than the percentage of the population which is lefthanded, this is especially evident in axes with offset polls such as Goosewings.

Anyway, thanks for the thread, and for the opportunity to pipe in.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/07 03:21 AM

Hi Will

Thanks for dropping by, and all that great information.

I am a thorough believer in good research and especially photos, and old drawings, wherever you find them. As I stated before I had to be able to prove the authenticity of every move and be able to back it up with historical materials both to my superiors, and the general public when they stopped by my site. I also was a good listener like the "wise old owl in the tree", and one can learn a great deal if one wants to. I for one have enjoyed the feedback and comments since this thread started, I am sure many more have too!.

I do believe that to arrive at the same point, one can take many different roads, and hewing timber is just one of those points.

People did things in many different ways, sometimes from necessity, but like in your case your back made you hew in an elevated position, as well you hewed in a fashion that you felt at ease with and that seemed to come naturally--good for you!!

At this time I welcome more visits and questions since things seem to be moving ahead once again on this thread.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/07 01:57 AM

Hi everyone once again:

this question is related to the style of broadaxes that seemed to be used in various areas.

Through my career I used my family heriloom axe which was referred to as a "North American" style broadaxe. this term as I see it is one that can be hung from both sides of the head depending on whether you are right or left handed, and that is what my research seemed to show up in books,papers and photos that I have looked at or found at the research facilities at my disposal.

Our museum's collection at UCV also backs up this research, but I am also aware that other types were used but none seemed to be present when our collection was put together in the 1950's. What I am asking here is there anyone out there that has had access to any information on just how wide spread the use of earlier styles of hewing axes was in the earlier years of colonization (the colonies) and just when they seemed to disappear and for what reason?.

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/02/07 01:32 AM

Hi again:

Just to add a few more remarks I was wondering if any of the visitors to this thread who may have visited any of the many museums especially in the New York State or adjacent states had noticed unusual axe styles in their collections?

Thanks for dropping by and hoping to get some feed back for everyones benefit,

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/30/07 01:10 AM

Hi everyone again:

This is a question that I see coming up once in a while, and that is sharpening your broadaxe if it is just wood dull or preparing the damaged edge of on that for one reason or another has become nicked.

Lets hear some of your solutions

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/08 02:03 AM

Hello everyone on this thread:

I was hoping to get more response to the above queries, but manbe the topic is buried too far, but then maybe not I am going to move it forward once again in the main stream to see if anyone has any additional comments.

Many have asked me about tightening up a loose handle I personally use very thin hardwood wedges and gently insurt them in the eye from the outside end. Alittle bit of glue will hold them tight in place.

this will eventually weaken the handle, and it will be necessary to rehang the axe head with a new handle. I have a very good dvd out that explains how to hand carve a new offset handle, and explain what kind of wood to use and where to get it.

Hot dry weather will contribute to the shrinkage of the wood in the head and the problem will intensify during these periods.
Once in a while dipping the head in water for a few minutes will retighten up things , but is only a stop gap measure.

I am open to other comments, and maybe alittle discussion on handles in general

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/08 11:12 AM

How about soaking the head in a can of oil, the wood absorbs the oil and doesn't evaporate. I have used a spruce root for a off set handle before, the grain all running in the proper direction, no glue, clamping, forms etc. It has serviced well. Tim
Posted By: timber brained

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/08 07:59 PM

I have an old broad axe that I picked up on ebay that turns out to not be useable. If looking straight into the blade edge it has a large bow directly in the center of it. I dont know why it is like this but it definitely makes it not a good working axe. It should be flat like a chisel edge , but it is more like a gouge shape as it is now.. Anyone know why this would happen and if there is a way to correct it. I thought about trying to even it out but this would be way too much material to work off. Perhaps it is just one to hang on the wall? tb
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/08 09:20 PM

Actually, TB, the axe should not be flat like a chisel. Looking directly into the cutting edge, it should have a slight belly of 1/8th or so, like a gouge.

In my experience, there's no way to hew cleanly with a perfectly straight edge -- the corners dig no matter what you do.

I've also seen evidence of this in old frames. If you look closely at old hand hewn timbers, you can see that the axes were only cutting a swath a few inches wide with each stroke -- not the full length of the cutting edge.

gabel
Posted By: timber brained

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/08 09:42 PM

That is really interesting to know Gabel. I always thought of the broad axe as a large chisel. This might explain why I have had difficulty with traditional technique. I have had great results straddling the log and riving back with hatchet but I have not been able to hew very well with the traditional technique. Why would the face be so wide if they were only cutting with a few inches of the cutting edge? For weight? If for weight why not just put the weight more towards the poll and have the weight vertically on top of the cutting face? many questions? too bad it is a forgotton craft, but then that might be a reason I am so drawn to it. tb
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/08 01:54 AM

Hi TB and others

thanks for once again for adding to the reference material

TB: The wide cutting edge is very necessary in order to hew and cut away wide chunks of material.

Also remember that the wide axe's weight adds to the momentum of the stroke, and will increase the work accomplished, something like a fly wheel on a motor.

The curvature of the blade doesn't mean that you only use the centre part of the blade, this is only noticeable on the final pass along the log's face, and it is at this time that you really need that curvature to do a good job and leave a nice texture to the surface.

As you are hewing, the wide cutting edge is being used to its fullest, for instance if you rough score 12" apart you can clean away easily the 12" width, and you really move along.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/08 01:59 AM

Hi Tim:

Nice post about the oil treatment, I have had no experience using oil, it would be nice to hear from anyone that might have used this process though.

The other comment about using a spruce root is a novel idea, one that I have never heard of before, but then you are never too old to learn!!
It certainly would create a tough handle, and no doubt as you say would last well

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/08 10:34 AM

I have tried the bigger axes and find them to much to handle, I prefer a 7" blade, single bevel, with a off set handle. I converted it from a "kent" style head with a flat blade I put a curve in it, a compound curve. It had a tapered screw wedge that I reused. NH have you seen one of those before? Its the only one I have seen and works great, just a slotted screwdriver to remove the screw/wedge. Tim
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/08 01:29 PM

timbeal,

can you post a picture of your axe? In fact, I think we should all post pictures of our axes.

I'm with you timbeal on the big axes -- I use a Gransfors right-handed axe, but it's a little light. I am always on the lookout for an axe that might become my #1.

gabel
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/08 10:01 PM

I will try, any tips on posting a picture, and make it simple. I will look around and see if it makes sense. Computers are not my thing. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/20/08 01:53 AM

Hi Timbeal

Can't say that I have, but one can always learn in this world.
My old dad always said that there was always more ways than one to fix any problem, and yours sounds like a good one in this modern world.

I unfortunately had to stick with historic solutions throughout my working life, and I enjoy hearing about modern solutions that others might pick up on.

Thanks again for taking part in this thread, and offering one of your solutions.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/08 01:34 AM

Gabel and Timbel

I have a good view of one of my family hewing axe on the "TOOLS FOR SALE", You will have to scroll back a month or two in the archives of that thread

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/08 01:47 PM

NH, that is a nice ax, curious if you still have it. I think you should keep it, being a family heirloom and all. I have a few tools my grand father used in boat building here on the coast of Maine. There were many more that were lost after he passed on, and it would of been nice to have access to them now. I think Mo posted a process for pictures I might try, but it is a stretch, for me. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/08 01:43 AM

thanks timbeal for the kind words,

I have reconsidered selling and took the advice of many of you guys, although I know that someday when I am not here it will no doubt move along, but until then here it stays!!!

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/08 01:41 AM

This is alittle off subject but during my working career, one of my jobs was to maintain an 1857 water powered muley sawmill, and its equipment.

One of the high maintenance items that needed continuous attention was a large wooden mallet called the "commander". It was used to tap in the the large wrought iron dogs that secured the ends of the logs during sawing.

What I am getting at is that during my years there I used every conceivable type of wood to manufacture the wooden heads from, they in turn were banded with iron rings to keep the ends from splitting,

Nothing ever seemed to work well or last long eventhough I enlisted the blacksmith to shrink on the rings, eventually the rings would work loose and fall away from the ends, and if the heads had developed a split the whole thing would fall apart.

The old photographs never seemed to show much detail to work from, I am asking now for you guys\gals out there given this task what would you do to try and overcome this problem?

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/08 02:36 PM

I've been making commander heads since 2000, and there doesn't seem to be any solution other than keeping a stack of timber drop offs on hand to make more. And taking several extra heads ready for use to a raising.
My commander heads have been made out of eastern white pine, spruce, and hemlock. Some have split more than others.
I took one set of commanders to at guild raising where they told me that they were glad to see me as they had split and broken four commanders the day before I got there assembling the bents.
My job that day was to work with Dave Carlon and his crew adjusting and plumbing the post of this barn. Each post was 12"x12"x20' and they had to be moved to the correct distance from the outside gable was as well as the correct distance from the side wall.
I swung that commander all day long moving 4 post per bent in a seven bent barn. And never broke the head on it.
The very next weekend I took that same commander to a well know timber framing school to be used to raise the class frame and a student broke the head of the handle with the first three swings.
I believe it was due to operator error. He didn't understand that the end face of the commander has to strike the object timber flat. I think he hit it on a corner of the head.
I make my commander handles out of red oak, and have had the same handle for 8 years......
I have never suggested that anyone use a ring as I feel it will eventually fall off during use and that it could damage the timbers being assembled during a raising.... But that's just my opinion about rings....

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/08 01:12 AM

Thanks Jim:

That is very interesting, and it is nice to know that others are experiencing the similar problem that I seemed to experienced in the muley mill.

I also kept spare commander heads ready to be employed as the need arose.

The one wood that I had the best luck with was wild apple wood that was well dried and cured, and that had grown in a thicket where it had to fight for its life.

The old timers told me that Rock elm was a favorite if it could be had. Around here the specae disappeared with the dutch elm disease about 40 years ago.

anyway thanks for the info maybe someone will make use of our experiences,

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/11/08 12:59 AM

Hi to those on this thread:

Once again just alittle off topic but a very interesting question I believe, and one that i would like help with:

I have a well seasoned red oak timber 12" square that I would like to cut up in 1.25" boards, without any more bowing than can possibly be tolerated. I would like to not cut boards any less than 4" in width due to the project at hand.

I do not profess to be an expert in this regard, but I know that there is many out there that are.

what would a proper proceedure of cutting be to work around any internal stresses in this regard?

thanks in advance


NH

What
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/11/08 10:54 AM

I guess sawing is a form of hewing. Stud mills take small trees and put them through a 4 sided chipper head, than that cant goes through a gangsaw and out comes 3 or so 2x4's. As for the 12x oak, does it have some large checks, if so you will have to saw around those. Just saw it through and through to yield 12"x5/4 boards, look at your grade and resaw those on a table saw as needed. Here is another gamble, place it on the sawmill with one corner down on the track, in a diamond shape, saw a 4"ish triangle off the top, maybe 5", save it to resaw later. Flip the cant 180 degrees, saw that through and through to yield wider 1/4 sawn stock. Tim
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/11/08 11:17 PM

To relieve stress equally saw one board off of one side and then flip 180° and saw one board, then flip and repeat.....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/08 02:28 AM

Thanks for jumping in both of you guys!!

Jim That is what I would expect your advice would be but I needed to hear it from an expert in the field.
I expect then as you saw it down in size when it reaches the heart area of the log then that part would be put to some other good use.

Is quarter sawing similar as far as getting the best out of the log?

The old Muley mill that I am familiar with could produce generally just straight sawn lumber, and then you would sort through the sawn boards for the better quality ones, and then cut out areas from them that held the good quality material.
Good logs without knots (usually the butt logs) we would saw for the cabinet maker,without squaring, in this way we would come up with some pretty nice wide boards that contained more of the outer quality lumber which would have been lost in the squaring process, these boards then would be stored and air dried for 2 to 3 years under cover.

I realize that with the modern sawn rigs flipping the logs during the sawing process is not a big problem, just a pain in the neck.

I was wondering Jim though about quartering the log, and then sawing the quarters, is there any advantage in doing this extra work quality wise?

Also what about Timbeals solution of diamond cutting, I never heard of it before, would you like to comment on it

thanks again I am sure from everyone looking in

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/08 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Is quarter sawing similar as far as getting the best out of the log?


Quarter sawing is a method to produce lumber that has the annual rings going from face to face instead of from edge to edge. Quarter sawn wood is more stable than flat sawn.

Quote:
Good logs without knots (usually the butt logs) we would saw for the cabinet maker,without squaring, in this way we would come up with some pretty nice wide boards that contained more of the outer quality lumber which would have been lost in the squaring process, these boards then would be stored and air dried for 2 to 3 years under cover.

Sawing a log with the blade traveling parallel to the outer surface of the log is called grade sawing. You would saw the best face of a log first then rotate to the next best face, and saw that until the face goes bad. Then rotate again to the next best face and finish on the last face, (as there are usually four faces to a log). The piece left over in the middle of the log maybe wedge shaped, if so then it would be cut rectangular. And this is a very low grade piece of lumber that would be used as a railroad tie or some other type of blocking.

Quote:
I was wondering Jim though about quartering the log, and then sawing the quarters, is there any advantage in doing this extra work quality wise?

This is one method of quarter sawing for achieving high quality quarter sawn lumber. And depending on the size of the log when you start easier to handle, if large.

Quote:
Also what about Timbeals solution of diamond cutting, I never heard of it before, would you like to comment on it?

I've heard of it before, but I don't know if I'd go that way. It really depends on the target lumber and the stock you have to work with.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/08 12:53 AM

Hi everyone:Thanks Jim for the information, I know that sawing logs properly is an art, and comes with many years of standing behind the saw and being the one making the decisions.when I was a teen ager I took a load of basswood logs to the local mill.  These logs were if I remember straight 2 to 3 feet in diameter, but had large holes in their centres.  I really didn't know what the sawyer could do with them but I was amazed at that time to see how he cut around  the outside of the logs, and threw the hole out the window.  I took home a nice wagon load of beautiful boards and planks, that he was able to saw from them, I never forgot that day.

Is quarter sawing worth the effort if you have a really nice log, and are paying to have the sawing done by the hour? From my calculations you would not obtain many boards of any width, but rather narrower boards of good quality. There would though be no way to avoid some poorer quality boards in the process, am I not right?

thanks again

NH 
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/08 11:23 AM

The reason for the diamond was only to gain a wider quarter sawn board. Your log was already squared up. I don't do a lot of grade sawing, mostly timber and long stock at that. The longest to date is 53', lots in the 40's. You can achive the same results as the diamond cut by cutting through and through with live edges, getting the widest flitches possible than resaw those to the grade you desire. Jims method of flipping would be a good idea as will, or else you will end up with a thick-thin board at the end, this is mostly true in your hardwoods not so much with pine. There was a local cabinet maker here who had lots of 2"-4" hardwood stock on hand, whenever he moved he took it with him. He passed on before he could use it all. Tim
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/08 02:10 PM

Quarter sawn is needed most if you are gluing up a larger suface, and do not want too much seasonal movement. Otherwise, I would just mill the timber plainsawn and select the best pieces.
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/08 07:30 PM

Hi All-

I'm realatively new to timberframing (I have one raising under my belt but little joinery work) but I've spent a lot of time with axes as a lumberjack competitor.

I'm looking to get my first broadaxe and I have a pretty basic question. I swing an axe right handed with my left hand at the butt of the handle.

I've seen guys on the log holding the axe the way I do with a left bent handle and I've seen guys standing on the ground with a right bent handle. Any advice would be appreciated before I make the investment.

Thanks-

-Kevin
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/08 10:26 AM

Find some place where you can try some different types and set ups. Most folks have thier prefered method, it's something one must just do. Tim
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/08 01:11 PM

I agree with Tim, try to find someone with some axes and wood.(you're welcome to try mine...) I've gone through the process of setting up a tool before and did not like the result in the end, then had to start over. If you can find something that feels good, at least you have something to start with that you can work with.
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/08 02:16 PM

Thanks Tim- It does seem like people have a few different takes on getting the job done. In the competitions I'm in I have to cut footholds to stand on for the underhand chop. I end up making a small scoring V on the top of the block with my axe and then slab the piece off. I've seen some pictures of people working down the the top of a log in a similar fashion. In that case I would want the log on my right, up off the ground a bit (to save my back) and use a left bent broad axe?
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/08 02:49 PM

Hey Mark-

Thanks for the input, you guys have been very helpful. If you're serious about letting my try some gear, I'd love to. Are you going to the TTRAG conference? I'm waiting to hear about a job for that weekend but if it falls through I'd like to go. It's kind of a catch-22. I need the money from the job to fund the barn project but I need the knowledge from the conference to work on the barn project.

I'll have to post some pictures of some of my axes. They aren't anything you guys would find useful, but they are pretty cool pieces of craftsmanship.
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/08 04:40 PM

no, I'm not going to the conference. please post some pics of your axes! I'll show you mine if you show me yours.....
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/08 11:41 PM

Mark, I like the straight handles. The last one I made broke before I had chance to use it, I was just tapping the head on. It had a curved handle the grain was all wrong, my bad. A straighter handle and rived next. As for TTRAG, go. It only comes once a year, work is every day. See you all there. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 02:24 AM

Hi Kevin and everyone --back to my favorite topic!

Kevin--if you grasp (any) axe with your right hand the closest to the head of the axe, then it is official that you are right handed. You will feel comfortable using a Broadaxe with its handle gently swinging in towards your body, (this swing is away from the cutting edge or the flat of the axe.), also the log will be on your left hand side as you work along.

If in the above senario your left hand is the closest to the axe head then you are a left handed chopper, and everything is in reverse, for starters you will be hanging the handle from the opposite side of the head of the axe, but will swing out away from the flat of the blade. the log will always be on your right hand side as you work along.

The above instructions are for broadaxes that have their heads placed in the centre of the blades. The European heads generally would have to be either right or left handed models, so you would have to select one that suits you as an individual.

Some people can chop right or left handed and feel quite comfortable. My grandfather Michael who worked extensively in the lumber camps, could chop right or left handed but not many could.

Thanks for bringing this topic up it seems that from time to time it needs to be reviewed, and as noted above it may take a few tries before you actually have a properly curved handle that feels like it will be a keeper.

I personally like the feel of the antique handles for the chooping axes rather than just a straight handle. To me the swing in the body of the axe handle and the sharp bend at the end gives you more control, and you can place the cutting edge of the axe head to the exact angle of the cut, taking your height into account.

The only case of a straight handle being proper in my books is for a double bitted axe head, where you can flip it over and work with both cutting edges. These were used extensively in the lumber camps to help keep the choppers working steadier between sharpenings.

NH
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 02:30 AM

Hey Mark-

Nice collection! I thought I could post my pictures in this reply but I guess I need to get them up on my website to link them. I'll have to get after that.

I have a great (tragic) picture of one of the axes that I damaged in Australia last year. I was staying with a family there and training in the back yard on some snappy gum. The axe was ground at 14 degrees and the edge of the axe broke off in the block. I actually pulled the little foil edge out of the block and took a picture of the wreck. I had to build a jig and file the axe back up (to 17ish degrees this time) Some very hard wood over there. Stay tuned for some pics.

-Kevin
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 02:33 AM

Hey Tim-

I am going to do my best to get down to the conference. I should know by the end of next week. Hopefully I'll see you there.
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 03:36 PM

Hey Mark-

Here are the only picutres I have handy right now. I left them kind of big so you could see the little foil edge that broke off of the axe. I'll have to snap some pictures of the rest of the collection when I get back in town and get them up on the web.
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 08:03 PM

Thanks for the response NH-

What are your thoughts on the pictures I've seen of the log elevated with people scoring and hewing the top of the log? It's similar to the technique that I use to cut the footholds in my underhand blocks (you can see a bit of one in a pic I posted earlier). I thought that it might be an option for me since it would be like putting in a series of footholds.

A friend heard about the project and claims to have an old broad axe I can use. I'm going to check it out and see if I can breath some life back into it.

On the double bit axe... More than once when I've had one out at a demo or competition I've had somebody ask "You know why they had double bit axes back then dontcha?" I've gotten the explaination that you shared, jokes about guys cutting down two trees at once, etc. More than one person has told me that one side was sharper for felling/chopping and the other side was kept more blunt and durable for knocking spruce limbs off (and other abusive work). It seems plausible... any thoughts?

Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 10:27 PM

NH, I will once again disagree and say that I prefer a straight handle on my scoring axe, the curvey stuff just messes me up.
( - :
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 10:29 PM

I had a double bladed axe once. And at that time, I kept both blades equally sharp. While limbing out a pine tree of dead or green branches, I would swing down and chop and follow through to raise the axe up over the other shoulder and then chop down again using the other head with this swing. As I did this I would take a step and it didn't take long to limb out a trunk.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/08 11:28 PM

I have found the double bit axe usefull for clean chopping and grubbing. The clean edge is for where there is no risk of rocks or dirt, the other for the wire brush and stuff close to the ground. If the straight handle works on the double bit, why not on the single. I haven't actually tried a straight handle but I am and I will like it! If for no other reason than the ease of making it, so it won't break this time. Unless I find some crazy grain than I may try the traditional looking handle.

Kevin, that is a bad nick. Is the steal extra hard? I am just curious if it passes the file test, will a file cut it or do you need a stone? Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/08 02:16 AM

HI Kevin and others:

Kevin as I look at your pictures of the damged edge on the axe, it is my gut feeling that you have put too fine and edge on the axe, and did not leave enough support for the edge. Also the steel might be really brittle and hard on the tool steel inset, and fractured when it came up against a knot or other obstruction. Some knots are quite hard and can easily damage or take out a respectfully sized chunk of the blade edge. one type of wood that is really bad and that one should watch out for is Hemlock especially in a frozen state.

I personally like the edge on my broadaxe to be very sharp naturally, but as you leave the area of the cutting edge you should gain thickness gradually and be back to the full thickness of the tool steel inset at about 1.25".

Now all tool steel insets vary in thickness, The better ones are not real thick, and flow back nicely into the body steel of the axe head, and in many cases you can see the residual marks of the forging hammers as they folded and shaped the red hot steel creating the eye of the axe.

holding the axe loosely in your hands and striking it gently will create a ringing tone, and the sweeter the tone the better the steel and tempering.

I also use a good file to shape the edge if the steel tempering will accept filing, but as a note of caution if you can't file it then you have a really hard tool steel inset and it will be prone to chipping easily, now mind you it will cut great but you will need to use caution when using it around hard knots, especially dry hard wood like oak, or as I mentioned earlier hemlock
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/08 02:28 AM

Hi Mark;

I respect your perogative to disagree about the handle's shape that you feel comfortable with, i am just commenting on my experiences over the years. I started out with my father in the bush when I was about 12 years old, and being in the 40's the handles were boughten and their curves were straighter usually due to the machines that manufactured them.

As I began my historic role in my work life I had to get back to the original lines that had evolved as far as the axe handles themselves were concerned.

It was amazing to me how much nicer they felt and how the control seemed to be more accurate. I always suspected that the curature in the old hand made handles evolved through time mostly for the good. Remember that the old timers used an axe extensively, and was devistated if the handle happened to break accidently

Nice pics and just do your own thing I believe you are all on the right path..NH
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/18/08 02:22 AM

Hi Tim-

It was a pretty nasty dig. I'm not sure if you saw the wire edge that I fished out of the block and positioned next to the axe for the photo-op. That is my "hardest" axe. It was stoutest axe at 14 degrees. I used that axe in competitions in the US and Canada when the wood seemed a bit tough. It held up in some of the gum species in Australia. The damage occured when I was practicing a springboard pocket. You end up coming into the block heavy on the heel and fairly straight in. I was able to rough in a new edge with a file but a guy over there finished it out with a Makita 1" belt sander with a zircon belt. My other axes (pictures on the way) are lower in carbon and tend to bend before they break.
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/18/08 02:34 AM

Hi NH-

The angle was too thin for sure, even though the it was the stoutest competition axe I own. These competition axes are a lot like a race car. We experiment and test to cut better and better. Eventually you push the envelope too far and "blow a gasket."

Thanks for the tips on the broad axe. I'm going to try to pick up that axe from my friend this week. I'll refer back as I work it back into shape. Looking forward to getting started!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/23/08 02:17 AM

To get back to traditional Hewing and using the broadaxe, I think that it is appropriate to discuss somewhat the offset in the handle.

I personally use one that has a 3" offset, an a slight rise to the handle as it exits the head of the axe.

Does anyone have anything to add to this subject, and if so lets hear about your experiences

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/24/08 02:19 AM

Hello everyone looking in and taking part in this topic, welcome aboard, and join in!

BROADAXE HANDLES

My preference is a rectangular handle that one can nicely close your fingers over, and at the very end I carve in a cove for my little finger to lay nicely in.

The antique handles that I have all had this feature and I must say it really feels niceand comfortable especially if you are using the axe extensively like I used to at UCV

I really hate the feel of a boughten handle, maybe I am too picky, I don't know but wow what a great feeling to pick up one that has been carved out of naturally bowed stock. Making your own is worth every minute of your time many times over.

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/24/08 02:31 AM

Hello again, and further to this same topic:

"I put on a glass finish after the shaping and sanding and whatever it takes to get things close to what you feel you need.

If you never have tried to apply one of these finishes it is quite simple, you will be surprised at the unusual feel it imparts to the smooth surface of the handle


NH
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/25/08 01:01 PM

I am 100% with you on the rectangular handles. I have worked my competition handles into a rectangular shape and I find it helps a ton with control and fatigue. I still have to get those picture up for you guys. Stay tuned!

-Kevin
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/26/08 01:33 AM

Hi Kevin:

Nice reply about the shape of the handle, I hope that those looking in will take heed.

Spoke Shaves, and a small draw knife, and a shingling hatchet, are tools that work real nice when working on the carving of a new curved handle taking heed to the direction of the grain in the wood.

I never use any power tools when I am producing an historic handle, it just seems not right for some reason.

NH
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/26/08 01:36 AM

I use a double bit often, an old 4lb Plumb, it's my scoring ax, plus I use if for roughing joinery, it's sort of my daily driver.

It is not my primary felling ax in my hewing, that would be a 5lb Jersey pattern.

To in some way speak to your question, I long ago custom ground the double bit, the cheeks of one bit being much thinner, for when the piece at hand will accept a deep aggressive bite, and still eject a chip with every blow - The other side is left fat for when grabby work wants me stuck.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/08 12:58 AM

HI everyone looking in:

Will: I like your reply, It is weird how one comment can bring back details that you haven't thought of in a while. Your observation on the thickness of one blade of the double bitted axe versus the other blade.

Well that comment made me remember how my fater's double bitted axe had one blade for chopping with a thinner edge while on the reverse blade the cutting edge was sharpened for splitting with a more acute angle which would split and not lodge in the wood (easily).

By the way he always used "Rock elm" for the straight handle in his double bitted axe. For those that are not familiar with wood specaes "Rock Elm" (now extinct in this area) grew unlike its other cousins very straight with a lovely small crown on top. A mature tree would yield 4 or 5-- 10 foot logs to the first limb. The wood had a lovely salmon colour to it, and by the way don't try and split it, or try and break a board or plank, they would bend to the highest heaven before that would happen.

Thank you for jumping in I appreciate it.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/08 01:03 AM

Hi again everyone:

Before I sign off for tonight I am going to leave you with a question-----

Just for a conversation piece how many out there is familiar with "Rock Elm", and does it grow in other areas of North America?

Around here The Dutch Elm Disease eradicated about 90% of the Elm in the 50's, there is a few still trying to gain a foothold and in my opinion I believe a resistant specae will return but will take probably 100 years to do so.

NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/28/08 01:38 AM

NH,

Rock Elm. Will look that one up when I get home. I have a collection of old forestry/taxonomy books. You sometimes have to look in the really old books to find out that a common name disappears over time. I got into an arguement with my sawyer over some logs I brought to him. They were black gum. He insisted that they were pepperige. He told me that the really old timers used them for tongues on their wagons because they were cross grained and would bend but not break. We were both right and I had to show him a 1914 book to prove it.

I was reading your thread. My son and I are working on a project that includes looking at old barns. We looked at one last weekend from 1860's. Had four 62' hand hewns running the length of the barn holding up the floor.

Question for you. What is the longest beam you have seen/heard of? I am almost certain that these are tulip poplar because of bark that is still showing.

Another question. Elm is cross grained and will not split easily without threading. Would think that it would be a last resort for timber framing, although that might be true in Europe.
We still have quite a few american elms in my neck of the woods(northwest PA). They are almost always out there on their own. In a sense isolated from the disease. I taught my sons to identify them by profile, and before you knew it, they had found them everywhere. Penn State University has a real live collection of american elms. Old ones that line the walkways on the older parts of campus. They spent lots of time/money to keep them alive.

Enjoyed the thread and look forward to your answers.

gregk
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/28/08 02:45 PM

I consider myself a "tree guy" and in my time in the field (primarily in western and central NY) I haven't come across such a species.

Thanks to everyone for jumping in on the double bit axe question. The "two edges for two purposes" story is one that I have used in the past and I'm gald to see that it was true for at least some folks out there. I'm putting on a demonstration in March and now I'll be able to cite references!

-Kevin
Posted By: Kevin Holtz

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/28/08 02:56 PM

Hi NH-

I know I've been promising a while, but I will try to get some more pictures of my competition axes up this weekend. I'll try to get some shots of the handles too.

I've been buying handles and reworking them for the competition axes, but I spend a tremendous amount of time squaring them up (typically with a small plane and farrier's rasp).

I'm toying with the idea of starting with good straight-grained dimensional lumber, cutting out a pattern, rounding the edges slightly, and laminating on a "doe's foot" at the end. The core of the handle would be straight and true and I think it would take far less time to knock the edges off as opposed to squaring and truing a shotty factory handle.

Back to work for now, pictures to come soon!

-Kevin
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/08 01:50 AM

hi GREGK:QUESTION--LENGTH OF HAND HEWN TIMBERS--Well greg I have never seen them but I have heard that the pioneering UEL's that landed here in Ontario in 1784, and who had access to virgin timber, hewed plate material for buildings up to 100 feet in length.That would put the trees before hewing in excess of 120 feet standing height. No doubt many of the virgin pine would easily go the distance.

The second part of your question referred to the usage of elm for hewn material--well I did examine one barn that did have elm upper plates but that was the only time that I personally ran across elm used in this sense.

I do believe that like mice if you see one there no doubt are more, so in that sense I am sure that elm was used from time to time especially if you had no other specaes on your tract of land to use. Elm would have been hard to work with especially for plates due to all the mortising that would be necessary.

I am looking forward to what you find in those old forestry books. I have old hand books that date to 1850, that list "rock elm" in their strength tests.

Thanks everyone for the replys

NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/08 02:52 AM

Rock or Cork elm is a distinct species that has a very limited range in North America. Does not grow here in Pennsyvania. It is mostly north and around the great lakes. Sounds alot like American Elm in size but grows one straight trunk with horizontal branches. I see sycamore and elm listed in UK websites. Not sure if everyone knows this, but the glaciers retreated slowly out of Europe after the last ice age. Europe with left with far less diversification of species than we see here in the America's. I think they make do with what they have. Most of the good wood that is harvested in Pennsylvania is being shipped to China.

Gregk
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/08 09:09 AM

Hi Greg,

English and Wytch Elm (Ulmus Procera & Glabra) are just two of the elms to be commonly found in England. These are difficult trees to work with due to spiral and interlocked grain and does not split easily (firewood pile experience). Under the old manorial land system elm along with ash was not classed as "timber" and hence was not reserved to the Lord of the Manor, as was Oak, and so people were free to take these trees and use them for their own purposes. Elm does have traditional use in mills and cart building but it can also be found as building material in clusters of old buildings where either availability of same drove the population to build with this material or the quality of the elm on offer was sufficently good to substitute as building timber.

Some of the oldest buildings that I have surveyed and recorded have been made out of elm and these have now been standing in excess of 600 years.

Our 17th century granary is lined internally with hand ripped elm planks and barns frequently are found to have waney edged elm weather boarding. I doubt that sycamore would have been used extensively for building purposes as it is highly perishable but it was used for kitchen treen, draining boards, spoons because of its taint free qualities. When fully seasoned and planed to a nice finish sycamore has a beautiful luster or sheen.

Elm has to be used sensibly in buildings since it lacks the durability (fungal and insect resistance) compared with oak but I have observed from my own tests that the external perfomance of elm seems to improve as it dries and hardens so if you choose to use this material use it where it is almost always kept dry e.g. in the roof or alternatively 100% wet as in coffin boards and hand bored pipes.

Elm would not be my material of choice since it is hard to work, stringy and prone to sloping grain failures.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Ken Hume P.Eng.
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/08 06:36 PM

Very interesting Ken. We live on a 200yo farm with granary, lined with oak. Kids use it for a fort. We have some English Walnut. They are not native but someone planted them for a reason. Can you help with that one?

Greg
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/08 02:15 AM

Hi greg:

I know that the early pioneers would have planted a few walnut trees not just because of the nut but my mother harvested the walnuts from a black walnut tree for dyeing purposes, she hand spun and dyed wool from various animals using the liquor from the walnut husks.

I am not sure if the English walnut trees would produce the same type of dye, but I suspect they would.

If you looked back into the deeds that go with your property, you will probably find out that the early pioneers were no doubt of English heritage, and might have brought along a young seedling to their new home site.

Around here I know for a fact that they did bring in apple tree seedlings, as well as fruit root stock such as rhubarb, raspberries, goose berries.

Even right now if you want a good rooting of rhubarb just visit an old abondoned homestead site, you will find growing wild many of the old original strains. On our farm and by the original homestead site grew 4 very large crab apple trees. These trees were thirty feet high, and the trunks were aprrox 30" + in diameter.

a few years ago they started to die, and had to be removed, what I did was take graftings and started new trees to stay on the property. From One of the healthier trees I took a slice from the stump to examine the growth rings, I was shocked to find out that they had been planted very close to the arrival of the first owners of the property.

Another oddity was that prior to haaving the grafting done I thought that I could reproduce seedlings from the seed of the mature crabapples, but even with the help of a good horticulturalist, the seeds would not germinate. In the end it was determined that the seedlings themselves were brought here as graftings, and therefore would not produced fertile seeds.

So thanks for your question it spawned a good topic I think, and one that I like to retell to those that want to listen.

Just before I leave it is surprising that the English oak survived our Canadian winters, At UCV they planted some and the unusual seasonal weather played some funny tricks on the genetics of the trees, they finally did not survive after about 20 years. (they would hold on to their leaves right though the winter) and stand right out among the other bare trunks around them.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/08 09:12 AM

Hi Greg & Northern Hewer,

Greg,

Re English walnut (juglans regia) this really originally comes from Persia. I used to live in Persia and can recall getting very black from the sticky walnut husks when attempting to gather same to eat. I have done the reverse in my own woodlot planting black walnut (juglans nigra) in the hope that this will provide a valuable harvest of timber in 100 years time. I have found that it is not easy to extract the mature nuts from black walnut and this is quite the opposite from the relative ease with which an English walnut can be cracked and eaten. The nut remains in good condition for a long time and so it is quite conceivable that a colonist took a pocketfull to the new world.

NH,

I love your story and do not be too disheartened at the lack of germination of crab apple. This tree is found in isolated spots in English woodlands and these trees must have germinated from seed probably from fruit eaten by an annimal which was subsequently deposited with a load of fertilser. Some seeds need to be treated before they will germinate to break down their hard seed coatings. Try sandpaper.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/08 09:42 AM

Hi NH,

I forgot to add that juvenille English Oaks (quercus robur) tend to hang on their dry brown leaves all through winter but eventually this habit will decline and total leaf loss will occur.

When I lived in Canada I was told that the reason that oaks did not survive on the prairies was that it could not tolerate false springs i.e. a retreat back to winter following the bud break resulting in frost damage. We planted acorns from oak trees growing in my Olde Hampshire garden at Tom Musco's place in Royalston, Mass. to celebrate the raising of Pembroke Cottage a few years back. It would be interesting to discover if these trees survived and flourished.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/08 11:39 AM

Ken, The tap root of a White Oak is sent out in the fall. It is killed by frost. While the Red Oak sends it's root out in the spring. White Oak is not naturally found in my section of Maine for this reason. Red Oak is. Mass should not have a problen with White Oak.

The Beech trees here also keep the golden, crisp leaves into the winter. Tim



Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/08 02:50 PM

Ken and NH,

Sounds like we are talking about forensic ecology. A favotite topic of mine. My wife tells me the original owner/builder of our house was Dutch. The house is an Adams colonial. Thats John Adams, one of the founding fathers of the American revolution. She says that by the time this house was built, many of the european tradions had become Americanized. The original owner was an agent for several land companies that were selling land along the soon coming Erie canal. I often wonder why he picked this site(remote) and up on a knob, to build. We have remnants of all kinds of things. Two apricot trees. Apple trees in the woodlot. Lots of them. And of course grapes. We have the wild variety but the boys noticed that some of them were full-sized concords. Thats when I did some research on old self-sustaining farms. The house is surounded by sugar maples, some as old as the house. We are boiling that sap down as I type. There are several springs near the house and that may be the reason we are here. He also built the house way off the road, but near the fields/orchard/springs. That is unfortunate for us right now because we just got over 20 inches of snow! The original barn is gone, not sure of the story behind that. As I mentioned in another posting, my boys and I are rebuilding and that is why I found the guild.
I learned in school that immature and sick trees will hold their leaves. Also trees that are sick or old will put all of their energy into fruit/seeds before they die.
Of interest to us is the fact that an elephant is buiried here. Once the Erie canal was put through, this area of Pennsylvania, near Lake Erie, became a wintering site for circus performers. Two of them owned this farm at different times. One of them was the world famous clown, Dan Rice, who dressed up as Uncle Sam around the time of the Americam civil war. He eventually moved into town and married the mayors teenage daughter. What a scandal. Forgot to mention the rhubarb. Got it beside the granary.

Greg
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/08 12:44 AM

Hi everyone

Thanks for all the information reference the crabtree germination, and greg great for you and your son trying tosave a part of your local history. Try and find a photo of the original building and use it as a model rather than something completely different.
Ken: I did many different things trying to get germination to happen one thing was to freeze for x no of weeks but I didnt try sandpaper.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/08 12:51 AM

Hello again

Greg--we got that 20 inches of snow also, or up here 49 cms, (some clown decided that Canada should go metric) well now eventho I have lived here all my life I canèt figure out how may miles I get to the gallon without a computer!!, Im sure someone will jump in here and say its the greatest thing that ever was but not for me. One thing that it did accomplish was that everything now comes in smaller containers that cost just as much as the imperial ones did
NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/08 01:44 AM

Most everything that I do at work is metric. Science and medicine. We did get rescued by a front-end loader earlier so I took the boys to the slopes in Western NY. They can snowboard for free after March 1st. It was the best. Saw lots of Pennsylvania style barns on the Drive. The oldest boy stayed home to watch the sap. He did a perfect job. No burned evaporater. Now trying to convince myself that it is late. WE changed clocks ahead today. Do you do this craziness in Canada or in Europe?

Greg
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/08 08:54 AM

gregk, by "craziness" do you mean the time change, sap season, of the metric system? All through grade school the teachers said the metric system is coming so learn this. We are sort of half way between, I am thinking mostly of nuts and bolts on the cars/trucks. Sap season, I don't go there but really enjoy the sweet syrup, friends of ours make gallons of it, its our source. Good old local sugar. And the time change, Hugo Chaveze changed his contry to a single time, Why can't we have a compromise, say move it a 1/2 hour to the middle and leave it. I just got comfortable, and now here we go agin. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/11/08 01:40 AM

Timbeal:

Well said--half way between that just about says it all
I have a farming background so I always think in acres, feet, inches, bushels, pecks, gallons, quarts, pints the list goes on and on, then when I was about fifty they wanted me to learn to speak french, and listen to this pay me! well in 2 years I did learn to say hello!

One thing that is great they couldn't change the old historic buildings footprints, they still come in feet and inches. The old farms are still layed out using the old survey stakes, but they are nibbling away at them with their metric whatever.., nothing quite fits though. they tried but the metric plywood just wouldnt fit the stud layout of 90% of the homes so voila we still have 4 by 8 sheets of plywood around, 8foot studs, and the list goes on.

By the way we still have the new 4foot round balers, It does get confusing for me HUMMM--cubic centimeters,hmmm---millimeters now lets see---------the 1 inch manila rope--oh yes we went head great strides got rid of the 1 and 2 dollar bills that fit so neaty into our pocket book now we got looneys and toonies that make our pockets bulge out, and our wives purses weigh a ton or is it a tonne well who knows....

hope I didnt confuse anyone with my canadian talk it is a great country, beside another great country.

NH


Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/11/08 09:51 AM

We now need a passport to cross the border. I can almost bat a rock to Canada from my house. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/08 01:02 AM

HI everyone:

Well got the snow moved finally and was able to get out of my house, they say that the world is warming up, but you sure wouldn't know it looking out my window, a record snow fall up here yup broke a record that has been around since the 70's., and still lots of time to break more the end of march is still a ways off.

well back to some serious questions,

--I always liked to use tamrack in damp conditions if it was available what is everyone's views on this,
--and another one that I have wrestled with over the years old growth pine versus new growth pine, the old growth seems to resist rotting a whole lot better why is that, anyone got any ideas?
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/08 01:58 AM

NH, I use tamrack for sill instead of PT. I belive it holds up well, saw off the sapwood, sapwood is the rotty part. Same goes for pine, I use pine for exterior stuff just don't use the sappy parts on the exterior. As for old growth versus new growth perhaps we should view the sap wood as new growth and the heart as old growth, with the exception of growth ring count what is the difference? And besides there is nothing we can do about it. We are working on 3rd, 4th or 5th cuttings. It may be we have a bad opinion of pine because the mills send the nice clear sapwood to the building supply stores we buy it and than it rotts so therefore pine is crummy and don't use it outside. As I repeat myself I use my sawn pine out side and have no problems, no paint, stain or preservitives. Pine is the king of woods in my opinion, I enjoy working pine over any other. It is like butter, cream of the crop. Tim
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/08 02:30 PM

NH,

My old timer sawyer likes pine when he can get it. Keeps it all to himself. I think the wood that is bought for construction in my area is all doug fir. Rots very fast. Sawyer says that pine is also his favorite wood to cut. Stays true.

He did give me a stack of Tamarack that he had cut for someone 15 years ago. Guy never came to pick it up. The stickers were rotten but the boards were for the most part like new, just brittle. So we took it to our place and restacked it. So I think that speaks for itself. Just not much Tamarack in this area unless it was planted by conservation minded folks. See alot of that this way, an arce here, an acre there, dense stands of pines or tamarack that someone planted from seedlings.

Sawyer likes aspen, he calls it quake. He rough cuts it then planes it to dimension lumber. Likes it better than doug fir. We have lots of big aspen waiting to get blown over in this area so he takes it in trade.

Gregk
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/08 01:45 AM

greg and timbeal:

Thanks for the well worded replies, it sure is interesting to hear different slants on things.. Oh yes the comment about pine being the king of woods, it is in my books too, works wonderful, smells great (no complaints from the wife when you get home). Keep the replies coming
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/08 02:14 AM

It is weird how people adapt to differing woods depending on where they live and what is available. Around here the predominant wood for a historic building covering was sawn white pine, it will just last for better than 100+ years never rot just wear away in the weather.

I am sure that in many areas pine was not available, I have noticed hemlock used, and believe it or not elm for building cladding. The odd time cedar boards seemed to show up, I never could figure out why cedar was not used more frequently, its characteristics being a softer wood like pine, and its resistance to weathering.

One thing that surprised me in my research over the years was the widespread use of pine for shingles, it came up in old newspaper advertisements around 1860 in this area. We did in fact produce shingles from pine shingle bolts at UCV as a test project which stemmed form this research, and applied the shingles to some roofs in order to monitor their durability. This is still ongoing as far as I know.

I still am a firm believer that the close examination of historic structures and the continuing use of the species of timber that the old buildings constructors used is the right way to go in a majority of cases.

Hewing Photo:


I have run across a lovely early picture of a team of hewers flatenning a white pine somewhere in the Ottawa valley timber country. It is a very large pine, and they had prepared a spot to fell it in the forest by clearing the fall path, and laying the tree tops across the open space to cushion the landing.

The one gentleman was using what appears to be about a 10" hewing axe of the North American style, the handle in particular is about 30 inches long, with rectangular in cross section and with a nice sweep up and out, and is hung right handed as it leaves the axe head. The surface that they have just finished seems to be devoid of any tell tale scoring marks, and near the one end a bit of the final pass is still clinging on to the beautiful hewn finish, what a picture!!

The timber is up to the hewers waist, and a gentleman is standing with the scoring axe but I am unable to see details of the handle or the axe head --too bad..

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/08 12:25 AM

Hi everyone:

One thing that I did notice in the photograph was that the log was directly on the ground not up on anything in particular other than the branches and other smaller trees.

NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/08 12:47 AM

NH,

I did not see a picture. Is it in the post or somewhere else?

gregk
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/08 12:45 AM

Hi Greg
No it is not on line I run across it in an old historic booklet that I have. One other picture that was with it was one of an early steam powered sawmill, what I was interested in was the large pile of saw logs all with chopped ends.

It is the first picture I have ever run across that shows how the saw logs were harvested in the early lumber camps. The stories that I was always told about my granfather who worked in the lumber camps in the upper Ottawa valley was that they chopped the logs down, not saw them down, it was faster to chop I guess

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/08 12:48 AM

If there is good interest I will try and scan and post them, this will be a truggle for me

NH
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/17/08 03:14 PM

Richard,

I am certainly interested in the photo. But if it is too much trouble, I understand. What is the name of the booklet it is in?

Gabeld
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/08 02:03 AM

Hi everyone looking in:

Well I have scanned, resized and saved the hewing picture we discussed above, into my photobucket album but I am unable to export it into this thread for everyone to see.

If anyone out there can coach me on the proceedure to move the image to this submit box I would appreciate it.

NH
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/08 12:24 PM



NH,

On photobucket, click on the words "IMG Code" that appear below the image. That automatically copies the img code to your clipboard. then open a reply to this thread and right click your mouse on the text box and hit "paste". that should insert a long string of gibberish into the reply box and when you preview it or post it, it will turn into the picture. that is what i did here.

thanks for taking the time
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:01 AM



This is a hewing picture for everyone to look at. Hope you like it.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:04 AM




Here is a picture of yours truly hewing, at Upper Canada Village.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:25 AM



Hello everyone, here is a example of a timberframe joint failure, one that I run across a number of years ago.

NH
Posted By: jim haslip

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:31 AM

Any idea what the specific cause was?

Those pegs look like they might be "too close" to the post face? Did the other end pull out also?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:37 AM



Here is an example of dovetailing timber work that was necessary during the reconstruction of the fort at Upper Canada Village during the 90's. The timbers were Northern White Pine and were 12" square, with hewn faces.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:58 AM


First off --thanks Gabel for the directions reference the uploading of the images from Photobucket, it worked great, and I am a little smarter now I printed out the directions and have them hanging right by my side on the filing cabinet.

Jim:

A few years ago now when I helped host the TTRAG conference here in Morrisburg,I was examining an old collection of timberframe structures to obtain interesting construction details to fill in my lecture that I was asked to deliver.

This photo is of a 3 bay driveshed built about 186o. The age I derived from the saw marks, and type of nails used in its construction.

It emphasizes the pressure exerted on the tie joint, and a joint failure happening. The problem seems to be not in the placement of the wood pins from the face of the joint, but rather the height from the tie beam to the upper main plate. The building would have collapsed years ago but one of the previous owners had taken the initiative to stretch cable in a couple of places from one side of the building at the upper plate level to the other side. Unfortunately not enough support was given at this point.

I am very careful in my remarks to say that all the old time timberframers made no mistakes because they certainly did, and this is one of the classic examples of trying to obtain additional headroom in the upper part of a driveshed by raising the height of the upper plate above the tie beam.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 01:06 AM


First off --thanks Gabel for the directions reference the uploading of the images from Photobucket, it worked great, and I am a little smarter now I printed out the directions and have them hanging right by my side on the filing cabinet.

Jim:

A few years ago now when I helped host the TTRAG conference here in Morrisburg,I was examining an old collection of timberframe structures to obtain interesting construction details to fill in my lecture that I was asked to deliver.

This photo is of a 3 bay driveshed built about 186o. The age I derived from the saw marks, and type of nails used in its construction.

It emphasizes the pressure exerted on the tie joint, and a joint failure happening. The problem seems to be not in the placement of the wood pins from the face of the joint, but rather the height from the tie beam to the upper main plate. The building would have collapsed years ago but one of the previous owners had taken the initiative to stretch cable in a couple of places from one side of the building at the upper plate level to the other side. Unfortunately not enough support was given at this point.

I am very careful in my remarks to say that all the old time timberframers made no mistakes because they certainly did, and this is one of the classic examples of trying to obtain additional headroom in the upper part of a driveshed by raising the height of the upper plate above the tie beam.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 01:07 AM

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 01:19 AM

Hi everyone:

This is my last post tonight and shows The Ross Barn being raised at UCV with the help of about 35 men and pikes. The lad at the base of the post with the white shirt on looking away was my head timberframer a great fellow by the name of Gerry St. Pierre. Unfortunately he just passed away, we worked together for many of these historic reconstructions.

Preparations for this event took 3 summers, from start to finish, all the timbers were hewn from scratch, some of them from 45 foot hemlocks and white pine, that squared 12" at that point.

You will notice the network of timbers just for the foundation, the hewing just for that layer took one season's hard work for 2 hewers, as well as the work of mortising and tenoning by 2 other full time workers. At the same timewe had to put in place the large stone abutments for the framework to bear on, this all took place without the intervention of any modern equipment, just horses and manpower using taditional hand tools.

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 10:52 AM

NH, the photo with the compromised post is a good example of why not to drop the tie more than 3'. I often have clients that want 5 and 6' of drop. No, can't do it. I try to stay within 18"-30" of the top plate. One can have issues with the top plate too close to the plate as well. I have a barn dismantled and in my yard, where the tie is only 6" from the top plate and no problens, though. With out seeing the rest of the building I am guessing it is common rafters and no purlin, let alone any other roof supporting members. It is also hard to tell what other joints come into the post in the break area, due to the angle of the photo. Any rot on the exterior of the post? Thanks for the photos. I need to print out some directions and post them next to my file cabinet as well, and than use them. Tim
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/08 12:54 PM

Richard: Thank you so much for the awesome photos. These are really cool. Regarding the frame that failed, was that joint taking all the rafter thrust, or were there some other members helping support the roof at the ridge or mid-rafter? CB.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/08 12:40 AM

Hi Clark, and Timbeal:

No-- this was a typical 3 bay driveshed with no purlins to rest some of the weight of the roof structure on and to also alleviate some of the outward thrust of the rafters, and the many snowloads that must have come to bear on this joint over its lifetime. By the way this shed is still standing, and you would never know that this problem is hidden away up in the attic area.

One of the construction features though that this driveshed has that may have added to the joint failure is the width of the bays. The first 2 bays closest to the home were wide enough for two wagons to be parked side by side in each bay. If my memory is right I believe these 2 bays were 2o feet in width, and the last one was 16 feet and contained a small shop with a floor. This made for a 56 foot outbuilding and was longer in length than the 3 bay barn that I reconstructed in UCV, and the one that shows us in the process of raising in the above post.

The centre bay was framed in with a lovely set of swinging doors on the opposite side, so that wagons could pass right through rather than back out after unloading say firewood or other items.

When I look at these old structures I can truly visualize the work that went into each one having reconstructed a number of them over the years.

I believe that the hewing of the long plates and mud sills contributed a great deal of the total effort, and of course the tie beams and plates being in the neighbourhood of 24 feet contributed a sizeable share too.

As a last thought and is just a bit of a history lesson I guess This home contained a secret passage way to the basement and was used to shelter soldiers during the battle of Crysler Farm in 1813.

Thanks for your replies

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/08 12:53 AM

Hi Gabel:

I am sorry that I missed your question further back in the postings ---No the other end did not fail, and it was the only joint that did fail. Remember though that in a 3 bay structure only 8 wooden pins really and truly take the lions share of the roof thrust, it always amazed me how well these wood pins stood up to the task at hand. You very seldom see joint failures like the one that I stumbled across in this structure. In swing beam barns though at least the ones that I have examined the framers added one extra pin in each end of the tie beams, I do believe that for the extra effort of putting in one more pin per mortise it was well worth it.

Hope you enjoy, and I welcome others aboard

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/08 10:56 AM

northern hewer, I'm not sure how my post on planks got into the tool forum, but I am still interested in that document you mentioned about construction of a plank house. Is it possible to get a copy of it, or more info? Tim
Posted By: Zach LaPerriere

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/08 10:17 PM

Tim-

Could you move your plank house discussion out of the tool forum? I'm sure interested.

Everyone-

This is a great thread. Thanks.

Zach
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/23/08 01:10 AM

Hi Timbeal,

Welcome on board Zack, its been a while since we have heard from you,

Timbeal I examined a plank clad timberframe building dating to 1876 that was originally a 1 room school house, but being that it was now a home it was impossible to obtain pictures.

I was able though to get underneath it in a crwal area and see the ends of the vertical planks, as well as the supporting timbers and sills.

My department wanted to reconstruct an early school house this one turned out to be just abit too young for our site which dates to 1860, so it never went anywhere.

I was luicky enough though to run across a family near the school that had a past connection with the original trustees who had the building built at that time. When I paid them a visit Mr Wells came out from the livingroom with an original 3 page hand written document that was drawn up for the builder to work from. It is a wonderful document you could reconstruct this building exactly from the information supplied. Nothing was left out even the price at that time.

I am sure that someone will eventually want to build this type of building and I have the means to that end.

Timbeal or anyone else, if you are interested contact me directly for further discussion on this subject.

NH
Posted By: jim haslip

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/23/08 07:25 PM

Ah!, I see... so the rafters placed the spreading force on the top plate, the post extended above the tie-beam too far, and the weak link was the tie-beam connection at the post...
Did I get it right?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/08 01:17 AM

Hello evryone

I am not up to it tonight but I will be posting some of the highlights from the document for everyone to enjoy so just tune in for further discussion. It would be good to know just what part of the information contained would be a starting point.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/08 01:13 AM

Hi everyone looking in, As promised--- here is a few tidbits of information from this 130 yr old construction document drew up for the direction of work to be carried out in the construction of a one room school in Williamsburg Township --Ontario Canada.
This document is dated March the 6th 1877.

item#1

The building is to be 22 by 30 feet clear inside, plus a porch 18 feet long and 5 feet wide with hip corners on the roof, 2 doors in front of the main doors, with 1 window between the doors. (I suspect a boys and girls separate entrance.)


Item #2:

The timeframe for the construction completion is for Aug 1st 1877, (I suspect in time for the fall classes to begin.)

If the work began by the end of March it only gives the constructor approx. 120 days to complete the work.

For discussion

I realize that at this point not much information has been given out but as a contractor would you be willing to put a bid in yet and if not here is a little more info:

Item #3.

there is no basement but hand dug walls are the order "20 inches wide and 1.5 feet deep on the lowest corner, walls to be of good field stone, laid with a good lime and sand mortar, and the wall is to be 36" high,"

Item #4>

Wall Drains to be as follows: "of good sound cedar, tube to be not less than 6" square, covering top and bottom to be not less than 2" thick of good hemlock"

DISCUSSION:

Could someone comment on just what they want, a square tube of cedar again covered with hemlock?

(One more item tonight)

ITEM #5

Painting outside: "Painting 2 coats of paint and good paint oil, Cornice 2 coats of white lead and best of oil, Roof to be tarred with good coal tar."

DISCUSSION

( I suspect that they want the shingles tarred, but I am not sure).
Tarring shingles is not something that I have seen but it maybe was done to prolong the life of the wood shingles, anyone got any ideas?


NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/08 11:13 AM

With the right size crew, 120 should be right on schedule, but not with my crew. I would be off by my typical 2 months.

#4 sch.40 PVC and crushed rock? I understand the cedar pipe, maybe the Hemlock is a extra layer to help direct water to the pipe? Filter matt? Is it hemlock bark? I wonder what is left underground? Am I in the wrong ball park in assuming this is a drainage system.

#5 I will have to google coal tar. That doesn't sound like a fire retardant either. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/08 12:22 AM

Hi Timbeal:

Thanks for the feed back, and comments on my first post.

Item #4:

The wood pipe is for drainage around the stone walls, I sort of believe that what they want is for the square cedar pipe to be sitting on, and covered over by 2 inch hemlock planks. These wooden pipes will last a very long time underground as long as the air is excluded from the wood.

This is typical historical construction directions, they usually leave out some important details, just taking for granted that you know or are familiar with small details.

Item #5:

Coal tar is very flammable but then again cedar shingles are also, as I mentioned above I believe that the coating was meant to prolong the roofs life, but then we will wait for further comments

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/08 12:36 AM

Hi everyone:

Here is another entry that is sort of a brain twister:

"RAFTERS TO BE RAISED 20 INCHES ABOVE THE THIRD"

This phrase is up for discussion, please jump in and let me know how you would cut these rafters using this information,--I have an idea myself but for the time being I am going to let you guys and gals give me some feed back before we proceed to another item.

Thanks in advance

NH
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/08 02:10 AM

Hi Hewer, my guess on the roof is that the builder was instructed to increase the rise 20 inches above 1/3 pitch. So using 22 feet as building width one third is 7'4" rise plus 20" inches yields 9 feet rise, so slope is 9/11. Pitch in archaic carpenter speak is total rise over building width.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/27/08 01:14 AM

Hi Roger:

Bingo--nicely put

The only thing that I could add to your fine explanation is that your comment of the slope being 9\11.

If you were using the square to layout the cuts bottom and top of the rafter you would use 9.81 (plus a little bit more) inches in 12 to arrive at the 108 inches rise in 11 feet of run.

Thanks again for the quick response.

You would wonder how or why they asked for this particular roof slope, rather than one that would have been an even number say 10 inches rise in 1 foot of run, it would have only raised the peak approx 2 additional inches.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/27/08 01:29 AM

At this point I am going to throw out a question on what you might think your work would have been worth if you were the constructor in 1877. Now mind you all the requisites of finishing would have to be done including the windows, doors, hardware, chimney, benches, blackboards, flooring, materials of all kinds including paint, planks, timber, spikes, glass, brick, plastering, table, shelving, etc.

So what do you all think, just take a stab at it don't be shy, and we will see how close we can come to he figure quoted.

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/27/08 09:43 AM

$857.29 Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/08 12:30 AM

Thanks Tim:

We will give this a few days before I reveal what the exact cost was at that time. I like that .29Cents, but then again I am sure that 1 cent bought a fair amount, probably a half litre of kerosine,

Maybe a few more would like to risk a guess.

What about the pitch of the roof why do you think that particular pitch was asked for?

here is a few more information tidbits to base your guess on or to just read about--

-There were 6 windows with 12 lights each
-the floor was 2 thicknesses of g&t lumber hemlock and pine
-Planking was 2" Hemlock planks 12 feet long and all over 8" in width and each nailed with 3-- 6" wrought iron spikes.
-one roof ventilator
-Hemlock roof boarding
-roofing good sound cedar shingles #1, laid at 5" to the weather
-10 feet between floor and ceiling

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/08 01:07 AM



hee is a photo of the Schwerdfeger driveshed discussed above

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/08 01:11 AM

I just thought that I would try and download a picture to keep my skills going, I actually amazed myself that I was able to do it.

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/08 10:36 AM

OK, maybe I am a bit high on the quote. Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 12:19 AM

Hi Tim:

I am not giving you any hints, the next time I am on I will reveal the true price in 1877 dollars,

NH
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 12:21 AM

Canadian dollars?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 12:37 AM

Hi Gabel


Thanks for coming on stream, looking forward to your response-

"in Canadian Dollars"

I expect so because the construction was here in Ontario.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 12:43 AM

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 01:03 AM


Hi everyone:


This is the outcome of a surprise find in the attic of an 1865 church that I happened to visit to film the timber trusses that suspended the ceiling.

This truss did not have the metal repairs on it when I first viewed it. The timber as found was nearly rotted through, and had started to drop about 1.5 inches.

This timber by the way was in length, a 12" by 14" by 45' bottom chord that not only suspended the ceiling , but supported about 50% of the weight of the spire of the church.

You can see if you look closely where there had been a chimney at one time right beside the end of the truss, and I suspect leakage from the flashing had allowed the rot to happen.

The repairs as you see them were ordered by an engineer, and have pressure rings next to the steel to help with the tension on the timber. Also there is a new piece of timber that replaces the rotted section, which was about 6 feet long. Most of the rot happened where the brace from the vertical post (out of sight) met the horizontal chord.

This is just another of the many things that I have run across during my forays to gain information on the many facets of timberframing.

This truss by the way was a bridge truss, very strong construction all the parts other than the horizontal chord was hard wood (oak), and the vertical oak posts were mortised into the 45 foot horizontals with a half dovetail and wedges driven from underneath.

the other trusses seemed like new and were amazing to see and photograph.

enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 10:54 AM

NH, do you recall if the half dovetails had pull apart some or were they still tight?

In 1877 the US had just come out of the Civil War by a few years and Canada/England may of had a better economy? My price is in US dollars so you will need the exchange rate for that time. I did factor that all in, didn't I. Tim
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 07:01 PM

Hewer you wrote:
Quote:
The only thing that I could add to your fine explanation is that your comment of the slope being 9\11.

If you were using the square to layout the cuts bottom and top of the rafter you would use 9.81 (plus a little bit more) inches in 12 to arrive at the 108 inches rise in 11 feet of run.


I hope the quote comes out well.

Anyhow, I think the simplest or least derived slope ratio is the way to go when at work. In this case, 9 ft. rise over 11 ft run. Hold 9 in. over 11 in. on the framing square and step twelve times for rafter cut length. Take a minute and examine the outside back face scales of the traditional framing square, inches divided by twelths. In a time when roof pitch or total gain was specified the simplest modeling and calculation can be accomplished on the square directly. Lets say a building is 28-4 wide with the roof rise of 11-5. Using the back face of the square hold 14 2/12 and 11 5/12 and step twelve times for rafter layout. For layout with the best accuracy use the square for setting trammels or large dividers. Precise length or slope in base 12 is not necessary.

On the cost I bid $1,235 with no factual underpinning. Old builders manuals such as Trautwine and Audels have costs at their time of publication, it would be interesting to find a close contemperary to 1875.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/08 11:48 PM

Hi Timbeal

Yes the dovetails had pulled apart some, I suspected from the shrinkage of the wooden dovetails, and probably the shrinkage of the wooden chord timber. I noticed that the shoulder of the vertical posts had lifted up out of their mortises approx. 1\2", nothing really to get excited about, but there was movement.



Well as promised here is the agreed cost between the school trustees and Elias Snyder the builder.

as stated "I bind myself to build said school house according to plan, and specifications, for the sum of $450 dollars to be paid in May and the rest when the building is completed".

At the bottom of the document there was a final entry--

"received sum of $485 of the trustees lot #6 Being the full amount in full dues 1877 Dec 26"

Elias Snyder


PS I notice that he also needed a few extra months like the contractors of today usually do

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/30/08 12:13 AM

Hi Roger

Well your reply to the rafter cutting is very interesting and I take my hat off to you!!, and may those looking in take heed of your comments.

The square is sure an interesting tool, and if well mastered one can do just about anything with it. I have in my possession an old text book that deals only with the "Steel square", may times I have read it.

Thanks for quoting on the cost of the school building, I am at a loss to know what the comparison between US and Canadian currency was at that time. I do know that British pounds were still floating around right up until confederation in 1867.

My dad who was a pretty good carpenter said that during his career he met one fellow that amazed him in his ability to produce any number of complicated cuts with his square, hardly ever making an error. My dad used to set me down as a young man and explain to me as much as he could what he knew about using properly the inscriptions on both sides of a good framing square. After he passed away some time ago I inherited his tools and I cherish especially his square, which by the way I never was allowed to use

Once in a while he would clean it thoroughly, and rub white paint into the markings to freshen it up and make its use easier.


Anyway thanks for the reply and information, I believe that every one aspiring to do carpentry, or timberframing should have a course in the use of the framing square, real early in their career.

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/31/08 11:22 AM

Roger, thanks as well. I have a rafter book comming from Summer Beam Books and hope it shines more light. I have always used a 12 base for rafter layout. The 10th and 12th on the square have been a sore spot, I use the cheeper squares with 1/8's for general layout. I hope to find a better use for the traditional square. In some drawings of historical structures you will see a pitch in a base 12 with a rise of some odd fractioned number say 6-3/4", and I think you just explained it. Thanks

It seems I am more of a traditionalist than I thought. The builder of the school went over the time limit by a few months. That is where it comes from, it's a tradition. And I was a bit high on the quote. I have some prices of my Grandfathers boat work, where the numbers are very small in comparision to today. They almost worked for pennies a day. But the workmanship was much more. Tim
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/31/08 09:47 PM

Thanks guys, but I'm just passing along things that I have learned from others. So I salute all the fine carpenters I worked under as a young man.

Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/31/08 11:39 PM

wow, what a thread this has turned out to be.
thanks for a good one, NH!

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/06/08 12:59 AM

Hi Derek:

I said don't worry about the spelling and thanks for the words, my old grandfather Michael couldn't spell his name but he could sure hew timber, and by the way he liked to get the young fellows together and see who could out lift him. Not many could.

He held the record at that time for the number of logs chopped down and square butted in one day.

I will be back with some more good pics I am readying for posting in a few days.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/08 12:56 AM



Hi Everyone

For those interested in half dovetail timberwork, here is a good historical example of a halfdovetail used in heavy timberwork associated with the timberframework in the 1847 Muley Sawmill at UCV.

You will notice the 20" square 30 foot white ash timber being suspended in a shared dovetail mortise cut into sister posts, the dovetail is securely held in position by wedges driven in from the outside.

Just for your information there is an identical timber right below the floor that is also suspended in the same fashion. this mill was constructed by the Beach Brothers who were English millwrights that was sent to this area by the British Government to establish mills in strategic locations to encourage settlement.

I hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/08 12:59 AM

Hi Roger:

It looks like you swing a pretty mean broadaxe good photo.

Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/12/08 01:13 AM



Hello everyone:

Here is a sideview of the same timber to just give you alittle better prespective of the the extremely heavy timberwork associated with the mill framing just above the vertical blade and its guides and many parts.

Notice also the very long sway braces that were used throughout the framework both on this level and on the lower level.

This long bracing was necessary to hold the mill as steady as possible while the machinery was in operation, due to the jerky forward motion of the sawframe that advanced with each stroke of the vertical saw .

NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/12/08 09:53 PM

Thank for learning the picture post. I really enjoy them.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/13/08 12:11 AM



Hi everyone, and thanks gregk for the encouragement, I enjoy sharing my life's adventures in the restoration\reconstruction field.

this will probably be my last post dealing with the 1846 Muley sawmill that in many ways was a great part of my life, not to only operate, but to maintain and understand the complicated early millwrighting that is necessary to successfully keep it in operation.

This mill was already 115 years old when it was removed from its original site, and reconstructed at UCV in 1961. It since has run for 47 more years, and in that time it has needed 3 complete reconstructions of the head race, and 2 complete reconstructions of the turbine box, shaft, crank and linkages

Its equipment looks crude to the average eye, but in reality to cut successfully with it it entails using very fine lines and settings that is awesome.

These long braces are an integral part of the framing and have to be maintained at times by tightening and wedging

Hope you enjoy NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/14/08 12:44 AM



Hi everyone looking in

This photo is of a reconstruction of the pressure box containing the 1840 30 hp water turbine that powers the woollen mill at UCV

This ring of timbers has to be strong enough to support approx 30 tons of water along with the weight of the turbine and the associated shafting

You will notice that the timbers are all held in place by dovetails, no wood pins are used as a securing medium.

The timbers are all white oak, and are 10" square, of #1 quality.

These timbers being mostly underwater will outlast the wooden box by a factor of 3 at least.

To be authentic the timbers were cut in our muley mill as a demonstration of sawing hard wood during the previous summer.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/14/08 01:07 AM




This seems alittle off our hewing topic, but we want to remember that historic mills even stone mills contained an internal structure consisting of many parts of hewn timber, which was an integral part of the structure, for instance the floor(s) of which there are 3 in this mill, the roof containing purlin posts, hewn rafters, and then the husking frame which contains and supports the milling stones, each pair weighing in at about 1 ton.

Please note the door frame that was removed from the mill walls during the teardown on its original site, and now being reinstalled in the reconstructed wall.

Just for those that are interested, enough stones were destroyed during the demolition that the purchase of 2 stone houses of similar stones was necessary to complete the reconstruction.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/16/08 01:31 AM



hi everyone tonight:

this is the final bent of a small horse barn that we reconstructed at UCV. It was a 1 year event meaning that we hewed, framed and raised the building in the space of one open season (May to September).

The barn was identical to one that was found in a painting owned by one of the Bellamy family members, as well the 3 bay driveshed noticeable in the background it also was reconstructed from the same painting, and was identical to the original building.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/16/08 01:41 AM

Hi again

I will post some more views of this raising but is there anything that any of you out there looking in, may want to know about the process of the reconstruction.

The stone mill that you noticed in a previous post was the grist mill reconstruction associated with the driveshed and small barn

The whole process was well over the million dollars at that time, the Grist mill waspowered by water as well as a steam engine each of 45 horsepower.

One of my roles as supervisor of restoration was to put in place the water wheel and its associated shaftings complete with babitted bearings, The stone grinding wheels, (which was a story in its self), the steam engine with its 8 foot flywheel, and the mill machinery.


NH
Posted By: mo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/16/08 05:56 AM

fantastic photo Northern Hewer! I like the one man's hand on the tie. Great thread, and with what you have learned what would you say about today?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/17/08 01:14 AM

Hi Mo:

Well that is a hard question to answer

I am very prejudice to the old work, to me it just seems to have character to it. I will be posting eventually the bare framework of a church being dismantled, it stands stark against the skyline, but as you study the hewn timbers closely like i had the chance to do you could plainly see the different workers that shaped different parts of the frame, but that is for another time.

I stand in awe at some of the wonderful modern frameworks that has been posted from time to time, They simply blow my mind away with their beauty, and yet there is something about the hewn surfaces and hand plane marks, and the complications that involve working with rough surfaces that make the old frames special.

I have worked with many excellent craftsmen that would walk away from my group (which they were a part of) saying that it took too much thought, or it was too complicated.

Looking at a reconstructed frame ready for cladding in the early morning light cannot be duplicated, its clean lines and yet rough surfaces quite a mixture it creates a special feeling in those that behold.

I do salute those out there that are working very hard to please their customers, I suspect that it is not easy because people have such high expectations now. I believe that it stems mostly from the very smooth finishes on the modern timberframes, natural flaws hidden on rough timbers become very apparent on smooth surfaces, and so on. I am a thorough believer that wooden frames built to serve the modern market are being pushed to the limit, and that in turn is pushing the constructors to the limit at the same time. It seems to me that even the architects are scratching their heads trying to meet code at times.

I don'tknow if I have answered the question but I have tried thanks for stopping by, I would like to hear from others so just barge in and say hello

NH

Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/17/08 02:05 AM

These are awesome photos, Richard. Keep 'em coming! CB.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/18/08 12:54 AM

Hi everyone in TTRAG Land

Well thanks Daiku for stopping in I intend to keep them coming they are doing no good lying around in my filing cabinet.

Each picture has a story to tell, and some that are in the story have passed on, but their memories,their enthusiasm and their image lingers on

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/18/08 01:14 AM



This is the unclad frame of the driveshed by the grist mill at UCV. We have just finished a weekend of raising the driveshed and are caught up in the upper level before we came down. That is yours truly on the left side.

You will also notice that there is no small barn yet, (previous posts) It will come in the next years planning.

NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/18/08 11:54 PM

NH,

Please tell me why there are two horizontal beams only 3 to 4 feet apart. The one your feet are on and the one you are leaning on. i have seen this in old barns and just don't understand why you would spend that much time/money for what seems like a small extension of height.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 12:41 AM

Hi Greg:

Thanks for opening up with a good question, shows you are careful observer.

I wondered if anyone would pick that feature out, When most people think of drivesheds, you might in your minds eye think of drivsheds similar to say those that appeared by churches their only role was to shelter the horses during a church service.

In reality there were many other types of drivesheds, we have 4 different kinds in different areas of the UCV's historic zone, 2 of which I helped reconstruct during my time there,

This driveshed was chosen for reproduction because of its unusual heavy framing members, and of course it exceptional framing details.

The inset horizontal tie beam in each end of the building that you are referring to, would seem to many to be unnecessary, but in reality it is on the same level as the other 2 centre tie beams, and was there to accept a complete floor covering stretching from one end of the building to the other. This area was sometimes used to store hay, and at times being that it was a driveshed associated with a grist mill, used to store grain in large bins, and maybe bags, barrels, or any other item necessary to keep the mill running.

These bents were exceptionally heavy to raise, and we enlisted the help of a gin pole and pulley blocks that had been used to move buildings with, and that were in storage.

We were able to hoist 3 bents from one setting of the gin pole, and then to hoist the 4th bent we had to reposition the gin to the opposite end and lift the last bent in reverse to the others.

I will be posting some good shots of the gin pole in the next short while.

Thanks again for posting the question I hope everyone enjoyed learning alittle something about drivesheds. I could describe further many other types but only if there is an interest.

Thanks again Greg(k)

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 12:57 AM



Hi everyone

Here is a good view of the gin pole in operation during the raising of the driveshed, hope you enjoy because I well remember each year the culmination of our full year's work right through some of the hottest days. This was labour day, and everything went as scheduled.

One thing that I din't mention was the 2 front centre posts were not on plates but rather just on large flat stones set as closely to the right elevation as possible. That made them longer than the 2 outside posts, and when framing them one had to remember the difference in length.

NH
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 01:02 AM

Thanks for the explaination. So if I was inside this structure, I would not see the two levels as I do on the outer wall? Only the lower level that is at your feet?
Posted By: gregk

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 01:13 AM

NH,

Lookin at this thing more closely now. So it is "floating" on the ground? No foundation? Great pictures by the way..So happy u figured that out. I am at Penn State University right now with my youngest. We are going to watch the spring football scrimmage in the morning. Paterno, and I quote " never sent an e-mail, never read one, never touched a computer. Does not have a cell phone". He finds it difficult to keep up with "recruiting".
Posted By: CarlosCabanas

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 01:14 AM

I would love to see more pics of the gin pole!! Do you need a crane to get the gin pole up!! haha Seriously how do you get the gin pole up? Looks like a feat in itself!!

Carlos
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 01:01 PM

One way to raise a gin pole is with a "raising" pole:



It depends on the size of the gin pole how it's raised.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: CarlosCabanas

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 02:19 PM





Northern Hewer

Did you set that bent up off the ground, on the timbers that are on the sawhorses?? And if so... why?

It looks like there are two ropes holding the bent down?? Are there lines from the top of the bents back towards the sawhorse??? And again... why??

Also how do you keep the bottom of the gin pole from kicking out? Is it dug in or tied to something?

Jim

Thanks for the picture of the gin pole raising. Makes sense.

Carlos
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/08 04:41 PM

When I made my gin pole, I made it with a large timber base, like an upside down T with braces:



This way the bottom is heavy and some what stable from left to right. And it provides a lot of surface area to bear on the ground/frame deck, if erected inside the frame.
I learned this from Jack Sobon, and also saw it in a book by Richard Babcock.

If you aren't going to make yours with a large base then yes, you have to secure the base so that it won't slide out on you when you raise it.

Some people do dig a hole.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/21/08 01:19 AM

Hi Carlos, and Jim,

Carlos I will try and answer your queries,

first off we always lift the bents up as high as we could with all hands on board. This usually is only sawhorse and a small timber off the ground. At this height when the main lift starts the short 8' pike poles can follow right away with varying lengths of pikes following in behind to cath the bent should something fail, like a broken sling, or whatever. We end up with 16 foot pikes that are secured well into the timber, and at the full height of the lift the handles of these pikes are driven into the ground to hold things until the all clear sounds and ropes are secured.
The ropes that you see going back to the saw horses will follow the lift up and will hold the bent securely at the top of the lift, also they are for security should the bent go too far. Ropes also follow from the opposite direction to also hold tightly in opposing directions.

The gin pole itself is set into a special shallow hole about 16" deep, this is sufficient to keepthe bottom of the gin from moving. once the weight of the lift starts no way will the gin move in any direction,

Lifting the gin pole up is a manouver in its self. This gin isn't real heavy but it is surprising the amount of effort it requires to get it in the air. What we did not being able to use modern machinery was to block up the gin as high as we could, and then with ropes and man power on lines and lifters and pikes at the top end we physically hoisted the top end upwards, once the pikes could be used with efficiency it was no contest, but up to that point it was difficult. You had to be careful though that it didn't hesitate and come back down once it raised above the lifters level. Everyone had to work together and be briefed on what to expect, and what is expected of them.

One of the dangers was that someone with a pike would stumble on the lift,and let the metal spiked end of the pike fall remembering that someone below not looking upwards could receive a serious blow to their head. We did have some close calls but no injuries. We also were required to work without any type of safety equipment.

I was continuously trying to visualize what dangers could happen and then do a safety lecture previous to the day's events. It sure wasn't easy, and if someone was seriously injured I really had no idea what might take place, other than first aid was usually very close at hand and instant communications with security and other personnel on tap.

Jim:

I like your gin pole I's sure that it would work well, My father used a gin of a different type when he was building the fort at UCV it was stationed in the centre and moved around to all four sides to hoist the timbers as the walls rose up

Well thanksfor jumping in I must go now

NH




Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/21/08 01:24 AM

Hiagain:

Before I leave if anyone else has additional questions or wants to post pictures of their gin poles I'm sure that everyone would enjoy it immensely

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/21/08 01:06 PM

I posted more pictures of mine in the thread about parbuckling:
http://www.tfguild.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=13562&page=0&fpart=1
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/22/08 10:30 PM

my gin pole set up uses a strap type comealong. it's handy for working by yourself, but i wouldn't want to stand under the load- i've had teeth shear off.

i use two ash poles secured at the top and three lines.

hewing season is almost over here- it's getting too warm! i'm planning on getting some video up on youtube and will post it soon.

one thing i found is that you can use your leg to advantage when hewing standing on the log. if you're right handed, the left hand holds in about the upper third of the handle, and the left knee pushes forward at the forearm. most of the swing then comes from the leg. push the axe forward with the knee, guide it in its fall with the hands.

i love the look of a hewn timber. it's sculptural. also makes it possible to leave parts of the log round if you know where its going in the building and where the joints will be.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/23/08 12:49 AM

Hi Toivo

There is nothing wrong with using the 2 pole system, I believe that it is a more permanent setup though and might be a little harder to move around.

A 2 pole system was widely used for stacking hay in the days gone by, it was ideal for that purpose.

I understand that you stand on the log for hewing, do you stand completely on the log? how do you keep your balance, and do you hew down beside your feet, or ahead of your feet?

I am also curious where you learned this technique,

Thanks again for coming on board, with the question and the information about your style of hewing.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/23/08 01:05 AM



before I leave this area here is a good picture of the completed driveshed and the small horse barn. Notice how the two roof lines really comlement one another, the small barn is being used presently as a coopering shop, but it has the horse stalls all built in along with the mangers,

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/23/08 01:20 AM





this next photo is a church frame that I happened across one day.

It seemed to stand out so bare against the skyline, and I had a good chance to examine it before it came down. I referred to it on a p;revious post, and said that I was sure that you would appreciate seeing it.

All the ceiling timbers are still in place and you could really get to see the structure and style of framing and hewing on the timbers

One thing that struck me was the absence of sway braces, or very few

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/23/08 02:06 AM

yes, i stand up entirely on the log which is pinned either to the notched stump and a notched sleeper in the bush or two notched sleepers in the log yard. balance is something to get a hang of, especially for the smaller joists and braces. i leave the bark on for traction on the first face, then stand on the one square face and work from there.

the axe handle (32inches) is offset slightly so that when you hold the handle knob at your waist the flat side of the blade balances right against your baby toe. i hew right beside my feet. it goes without saying that one must be very aware, but this seems to come about naturally. i feel safer doing this than with the swedish style (which is nice for finishing) with the log at waist level, where a glancing or too-hard blow can put the axe into your thigh. in what i've been told (by my grandfather) is the finnish style, it's just a matter of keeping your toes tucked in on the log and keep you eye on the chalked line. the weight of axe to plumb keeps the face of the timber square. you hold the axe on a relaxed right arm and let it pendulum with the weight doing the work.

from what i've been told this was the way that railroad ties were hewn in the bush. i have an old cnr axe that my grandfather gave me. the octagonal handle on it is elegant and i've used it as my pattern for others (none quite as nice as the original yet).

interesting to see that little finish broadaxe:

http://www.kfhume.freeserve.co.uk/pages/publicationspages/finland2001pages/finland2001frame.htm

that looks more like a surfacing tool than something you'd chop a tree square with. ????

thanks for the background on the 2 pole gin-pole! i think many of these techniques are often patterned more by habit, happenstance and imitation than by enlightened practice.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/24/08 05:06 PM





Hi everone:

Here is a good shot of the foot of the rafter associated with the church frame (previous post).

This maybe old hat to some of you, but to some the mystery of what type of notch or cog was used to secure the bottoms of the rafters to the upper plates lives on.

In this case the cog was fit snuggly down into a corresponding motise in the top plate, and then they used 6" wrought iron spikes to secure it there. I was surprised that no wood pins were used as a securing medium.

Also there was no overhang tail fashioned on the end of the rafter, They no doubt used another technique to apply the overhang.

I have seen angled blocks used, and on another church they mortised holes all along the plate and then inserted square support pegs to build the overhang out of.

Remember that the overhangs usually carried right around the building corners and identical returns were applied.

For those of you that never applied historically an eve return it is tricky to replicate, especially if there are multiple rounds of trim that needs also to be returned as well as carrying these multiple rounds up the gable ends.

One such project that I worked on had 5 rounds of different trim of varying sizes and shapes, one round being fashioned out of 4 by 4" pine.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/25/08 01:05 AM

Hi again

I have a question for someone out there

"why do you think that the cog is offset to one side of the base of the foot of the rafter rather than putting it right in the centre"

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/25/08 12:59 PM

Standard layout rule, 2" off layout side 2" wide.....
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/25/08 11:38 PM

I need a better picture. Is cog the same as tenon in this example? Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/26/08 01:11 AM

Hi everyone

thanks for the replies--Jim--yes standard layout rule 2" off the layout side-- right--but when you look at the rafter laying beside the one in question notice that the cog seems to be centered,

Timbeal--cog--I suppose does have the same function as a tenon but in a different way, for instance it is not pinned, but it does fit into a mortise cut into the plate, other than that I really don't know what to say.

Cogs do come in different forms, with smaller rafters the cogs will extend right across the whole base of the rafter, in the case of these fairly large rafters the cogs are situated as you see. One thing that struck me though was that for the job that they were doing these cogs seem fairly small, and being shaped on the face would have been harder to cut without an adze.

The thrust fase of the cog no matter where they are used are always are at a right angle to the foot of the base of the rafter, and are a little tricky to fashion. I used an adze as mentioned above predominantly to shape the cogs on the feet of the reconstructed buildings that i was involved with at UCV.

Whenever you are examining existing buildings for reconstruction it is almost impossible to know for sure just what the cog or tenon on a hidden joint truly looks like sometimes you have to make decision based on your experience or if you are lucky you may be able to come across it in research document or historic book written by an author dating to the period that you are working in.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/26/08 01:26 AM

Hi everyone:

before I leave this photo of the church frame one of the interesting framing features, that seemed unusual to me at that time, was the ceiling tie beams were on the same plane and in line with the upper plates and the vertical posts

It seemed a wonder to me that there was enough wood left at the point of intersection to make a secure mortise--maybe someone could comment. I did theorize that the tenon from the ceiling tie beams passed through the plates, and the tenon from the post coming up through the plate was short, that would be my own solution.

The only thing that I can say is that they seemed to hold securely for the lifetime of the structure, which was probably over 100 years.

It would be nice to hear an engineer's point of view on this topic and what he would do if asked to reconstruct this building.

I was not able to get up and take a look at that time, and when I went back the frame was demolished and gone.

As I stood there that day trying to visualize the raising that must have taken place, it seemed to me that each whole side of the building must have been raised and then the tie beams inserted in the air from scaffolding. Of course the ends would also have to have been raised first, and then both sides, and then the tie beams, in that order.

I must point out that the whole frame was white oak timbers which would make for strong connections but tough hewing.

I hope you enjoyed this trip with me back to a time when framer's did their own thing------

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/27/08 12:05 AM






Hi everyone dropping by

I think that it is about time to end this thread due mainly to a prompt from a good friend, besides that I truly was considering starting up fresh, so don't go away too far I thoroughly enjoyed having you on board.

For those of you that want feel free to continue to wander through these 23 pages of questions and answers, as well as personal photos, I have many more and I promise to bring more to your viewing pleasure as the days roll around.

I am ending this thread with a hewing photo of yours truly at UCV working on one of the many timbers used in the reconstruction of the Ross Barn.

I will drop by from time to time to answer any questions that you might want answered in regards to any of the posts, if I don't seem to respond just put the finger on me in the new thread so that I realize that there is additional interest to be taken care of here

The Northern Hewer

Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/08 11:58 PM







It seems that many are still visitg this site so I will for the next short while post some additional interesting photos.

I can't seem to get the pics to load so I will try tomorrow night--sorry

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/12/08 12:06 AM



hi everyone: sorry for being so long delivering another photo.

This picture shows a corner layout of the mud sill of the Ross Barn just before the raising took place of the upper structure.

You will notice the sizing of the timber's seating in reddyness for the corner post

You can also see the tallow on the pins, we always kept the wood pins in a pail with tallow, it keeps the pins from drying out, and provides a slippery surface for driving them home with the commander.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask

Hope you enjoy

.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/13/08 12:08 AM

Hello everyone

Just a further note to this pic before moving on, the seating as you see it here was produced using an adze only and after the ring of sill timbers were slid into position and proper measurements were taken,

On the timber you will also notice the wooden rule that I always kept close by me as I worked. I was taught by my father to always use it along with measuring poles of varying lengths. We used metal tipped poles, these metal tips came out to a square knife like edge on both ends, and varied in lengths from 3' to 16'-- (3', 6', 8', 10' 12', 16' respectively). Metal rules were not used on site, and I will tell you once you became familiar with measuring poles you would not go back to a flexible tape for accurate measurements.

One exceptional use of measuring poles was to square up frameworks both standing and horizontaly while fitting up on the ground. You would measure up the post on the framing line say 6' place a fine nail, and then from the base of the post out 8' on the plate from the same framing line and place another fine nail.

The 10' measuring pole should when everything is square just touch both fine nails. It was at this time that you could check the contact point of the post to the seating on the plate and adjust as necessary, also at this time you could do layout work for the brace holes using the correct measuring pole for that particular building.

What pictures tell!!

I hope that you enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/13/08 04:47 AM

Hi Richard,

There have now been over 27,000 hits on this topic.

Is that a record for the forum ?

Congratulations

Ken Hume
Posted By: frwinks

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/13/08 06:32 PM

hats off to NH for posting all the awesome info and pics cool

keep 'em comin' mister
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/14/08 12:05 AM

Hi Ken and Frwinks

Ken nice to know that you are looking in from over THERE! I really am not trying to set any record but there seems to be quite a few that stop by each day for a look in, I compare it to a line up at a great restaurant.

Frwinks also thanks for plug and I take it that you are enjoying the posts, that really makes my day, and I hope that you are learning from your visits.

I welcome conversation please feel free to jump in with your experiences and comments.

Well all I can say is that I am glad many seem to be enjoying what I have to offer and I will try to continue to post general interest pics along with some commentary on this site as I get the time.

My other new site deals mostly with historic structures in particular Mills of the 1860's period, but I will be posting photos of other structures that include drivesheds, shops, bakeovens, smokehouses, and we may even talk about the outhouses that were a necessary evil back when.

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/15/08 12:46 AM



Hi everyone here is another view that I just ran across of the church frame as it is being dismantled in Dundas County.

It alway impressed me how the network of timbers spanning the whole width of the building seemed to say so true and straight without middle supports and what a problem it must have been during the raising many years ago to insert the timbers due to their unusual side connections and other members as they needed to be placed in their respective positions.

Hope you enjoy.

NH
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/15/08 11:09 AM

Hi NH

With regard to the earlier mud sill photo, I have not seen the top surface of a sill releived like that before in historic framing. Is that something common in youre experience? What is the purpose?

Jim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/16/08 12:28 AM

Hi JIm:

Good question:

Well for starters this system of framing requires one to refer to framing lines which represent the true outside diameter of the timber.

The sizing that you see in that photo is required because the timber was overhewn it appears about 3\4". Now the upright timber that will stand in this spot is exactly the same length as all the rest of the vertical timbers that make up each bent of the structure. This sizing of the mud sill or plate at the contact point of each upright timber along the mud sill ensures that the upper ends of all the posts are right in line and will accept the upper main plate and make the roof line straight.

The upper main plate will also have to be sized at the point that the vertical timber contact it.

Depending on the hewing at times the sizing is hard to notice because of the accuracy of the hewing. I have seen barns where there was very little sizing at connection points but that was unusual with hewn timber.

I hope this answers your question if not just come back with more questions and we will continue to discuss this point until you are satisfied with the outcome.

Thanks for coming on board

NH
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/17/08 10:28 PM

Hi

I cannot tell if this barn will have a wood floor which lands on the sill. If so, relieving the top of the sill will produce a level eave but an irregular floor. I can see using this method if it were a shed with a dirt floor.

Jim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/17/08 11:48 PM

Hi Jim:

Once again very observant a trait I really like in people, I hope many are looking in as we talk about this item of interest.

Being a 3 bay barn this is the #3 bay and is the section that hay is stored in, meaning that the hayloft decends to ground level. This would indicate then that the irregular variation of the top of the sill creates no problem,

Now as you move to the centre bay that did have a floor covering of 3", pine slip tongue planks this irregularity could cause you some distress.

Remember now that this sizing had to be done at each vertical post at its point of contact with the plate, to ensure that the whole frame would go together properly, no mistake about that. To overcome this slight iregularity you would just get out your adze and in about 30 minutes or less cut away the proud material.

That is exactly the way that these types of problems as they arose were handled.

It could be that in the centre bay section very little needed to be taken at the sizing points so there may not have been a problem at all.

This is what using rough hewn material is all about, you expect these types of problems from time to time, and you handle them.

By the way I would say that a level eve is visually quite important

I hope this answers your question and I thank you for it I hope everyone enjoyed us sharing this bit of historic timberframing information

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/08 09:43 AM

NH, was this sill a replacement or modeled from a older building which wasn't savable? In the recreations are/were you using or reclaiming some of the original pieces? In the sill situation it seems the tops could be placed flush and the odd bottom would be accommodated with the stone foundation, relieving the worker of the adze work. Have you seen this sill post housing in original structures? Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/08 11:59 PM

Hi Timbeal:

Once again good question

This was brand new historic reconstruction. The building was private property, and we had to get permission from the owner to gain admittance for detailed information.

The original barn is still being used and will probably survive for some time. The reason it was chosen was because it dated back to the 1860 period and had unusual early framing characteristics such as tie girts between the tops of the purlin posts, and very heavy handhewn timbers, which in itself meant that the timbers were chosen from the 1st generation forests.

The timbers also were rectangular rather than square which placed properly in the framework allowed good heavy relish at the seating points.

The braces were another story they also were handhewn from hardwood, rectangular rather than square, and the seatings of their feet did not follow the regular framing plan which would have been that they would have been laid out along the framing lines. They (the feet of the braces) rather followed a line about 15 degrees inside the framing lines.

This characteristic created a lot of hard work for the hewing team, and then the framers had to create a method for creating them from the hewn stock, and accurately placing them in their positions with a good tight fit. These braces I might say were tricky to make and install but once in place they were truly a strong bracing mechanism.

I think Timbeal that you need to consider what you are proposing in the later part of your reply above. In my opinion it was much easier and more accurate to place the timber sill level on the large load bearing stones, using the framing lines as a reference medium for this job, and then work from the framing lines upwards to the seatings.

Another aspect to consider is of course the rough hewn surface of the upper part of the timber sill being that they are hand hewn and rough and uneven, here again in my opinion it would be not good workmanship to just place the vertical timbers in their respective mortises giving no thought to what was going to happen further up the line.

I have to say though that the purlin posts's feet where they sat on and were mortised into the large cross girts were not gained into the the top surface. Under close examination it seemed to me that the original hewers were working under very close tolerances, and the need for anyseating at these points were unnecessary. We in turn paid cose attention to this detail and the reconstruction included this feature.

This barn's large doors also had very unusual door hinges being fashioned entirely from wood. Here again we were able to examine and copy the original hinges and install them to a very high accuracy rating.

This barn was a 3 bay English barn but exhibited traces of the German Dutch framing characteristics that seemed to have been included, such as no overhang on the eve, and the wooden doors hinges.

Thanks for the comments and questions Timbeal, and I am open to more questions if anyone wishes to put them forward.

During the TTRAG Conference in Morrisburg a few years back I took the group at that time to visit this barn and we had quite a discussion on the many points

Hope everyone enjoys

Nh

Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/19/08 10:36 AM

NH, as I reconsider my proposal I pulled out Timber Framing #81 and browsed on the article The English Barn in America, I found the last section The Foundation to be helpful in that it pointed out how the sills were laid. "the sills were placed, leveled and squared. Than the gaps in the wall were filled with thin shim stones" This does leave us to question what the level reference was, I am guessing it is the top of the sills. Sobons sills were sawn but that doesn't mean they were true. The difference was made up with the "shim stones". Still questioning if the original, and still standing structure had reduction/gains on the sills? Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/19/08 11:31 PM

Hi everyone--good evening --

Well before we leave this topic I have a couple of more unusual framing characteristics that I ran across as I was doing the documentation on this building, I am going to tell you what they were and Maybe you will give me your best guess at why the original framer did what he did:

a--The purling posts placement--

The building is 30 feet wide and as I measured the original mortise placement for the purling posts I noticed that instead of there being an equal 10 feet between the outside of the building to the centre of the mortise holes in each case the posts were 4" closer to the centre line of the building ie: 10'-4" from the outside to the centre of the purlin posts.

I replaced the posts in the same position during the reconstruction although I sort of wondered if it had been a mistake on the framer's part. In the end I discovered why this had been done.

What is your guess?

b--Ceiling timber placement--

In the east bay another irregularity showed up during the initial documentation of the building...

The east bay had a ceiling in it originally and was used mainly for horses and a few cattle. The ceiling timbers were framed in so that over the alley way they were 4" higher on that end than on the other end where they met and were mortised into the posts

Here again I thought a mistake had been made and I double checked to see if the posts had decayed on the bottom ends and created false readings. To my dismay though it was evident that this was not so and I really was torn between correcting this error during the reconstruction. It was decided though to not change things but keep the original measurements during the reconstruction.

The answer to this also became evident after the framing was complete and the floor in this section was installed--what do you guys think the irregular measurements were there for.


I hope you enjoy and don't be afraid to jump in with an answer I am sure everyone will enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/19/08 11:48 PM

Hi Timbeal:

I am a firm believer that things were done in many ways, and it sounds like the article which I am not familiar with states clearly that the ring of sill timbers were probably Hewn,
Mortised and Framed in the yard close to the construction site. I would expect that at this point the seatings were all completed.

At the same time or previously the stone walls were raised ready for the ring of sill timbers. Once in place on top of the stone walls the timbers were probably wedged and levelled up and then thin stones and mortar filled any gaps, which would be normal in that case.

In our case we did not have stone walls but individual large flat stones placed so that they were under the load bearing points.

We also levelled up the sill timbers as best we could without a transit to work with, the main thing being that no wind in the timber placement was allowed. We then filled in the gaps with an historic mortar mixture which was 3 sand and 1 of slacked lime.

Whether the original timbers were seated and how much is not an issue because we were using freshly hewn timbers which were as I mentioned oversize, I think that I mentioned 3\4" roughly.

I hope this answers your question I have did the best I can to make it clear for everyone.

You did mention that you wondered what the level reference was well for me it would have probably have been no doubt 3 different places 1--the seatings on top of the sill, 2--the framing line on the side of the timber sill there from the work of the framers), or 3--the half lap mortises on the corners. Any one of these spots could have been used as a levelling reference point

Thanks again for the additional dialogue I am sure that many are following this conversation along

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/23/08 12:47 AM

Hello everyone

I am still waiting for some feedback on the questions that I posted a couple of night ago that deal with the framing irregularities of the barn we are discussing. So jump in and take a stab I am sure that many would like to hear what you have to say.

NH
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/23/08 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer

The building is 30 feet wide and as I measured the original mortise placement for the purling posts I noticed that instead of there being an equal 10 feet between the outside of the building to the centre of the mortise holes in each case the posts were 4" closer to the centre line of the building ie: 10'-4" from the outside to the centre of the purlin posts.

I replaced the posts in the same position during the reconstruction although I sort of wondered if it had been a mistake on the framer's part. In the end I discovered why this had been done.

What is your guess?


NH



Was it an 8" post?

sounds like the framer was setting out from/to the edge of the post, not the center, so it was an even 10' to the edge?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/24/08 12:57 AM

Good evening everyone:

Well thanks Gabel and Derek for what I would call I believe very educated answers.

First part--
Gabel--pretty good response I would say--

The original framer when he laid out for the mortise to secure the bottom of the purlin posts had it in his mind that the exact centre of the rafter would bear directly on the outside corner of the purlin plate, and that necessitated moving the mortise over 4" closer to the centre of the building the posts being 8" square. In my book this was pretty good work and it certainly was not done by a green horn, but by a very experienced framer who was pretty particular I must say.

I had sort of forgot about it until we were doing an initial layout of a pair of rafters on the ground prior to the raising and discovered why the mortise ended up where it was.

Derek:--also a good guess I must say

The extra height over the walkway gave a little more clearance for the horses heads especially their ears as they entered on their way to their stalls.

Personaly I would have put the ceiling timbers in level if I had been the one in charge of the framing at that time.

I must say though that lighting was not a factor because of the small windows in this case.

Thanks again for coming on board

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/24/08 11:08 AM

How many hands high were these horses? Tim
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/24/08 12:33 PM

In the same article of TFing #81 Sobon mentions "The top side of the floor framing is, of course, the reference face, assumed to be flat and level". This being a series of articles on English barns in America and NH, you being in Canada? Could those folks of been applying a different approach to framing? NH, I believe you would find this series of articles very interesting.

In the last few post were you discussing a drive shed or the stable? Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/25/08 01:19 AM

Hi everyone

Timbeal well I have no way of knowing even what kind of horses was used approx 148 years ago I expect though that they were the "Canadian Breed" which is a small tough working type which I believe came out of Quebec, but then I am not a horseman by no stretch of the imagination.

Also Thanks for the push in the direction of future reading I am always open to new information when it comes to historical subjects.

I am sure that Sobon wrote some good articles which I am sure he can back up with personal experience or research no doubt, but there again we need to keep an open mind.

I did work under the direction of one of Canada's leading restoration arhitects during my life's work, and to that I have added experiences like looking closely at what was done by the common carpenters from long ago. I have also listen with interest to the experiences of others in my field including writers like Mr Sobon, and others that have come and went before him. I was also fortunate to have discussed with thousands of tourists woodworking topics, of which timberframing and hewing was right near the top. They came from all over the world England, Australia, France, USA, and the last few years from Russia many groups I hosted personally with translators. I learned from them and it made me humble and it made me realize that our history is so young compared to Europe, japan, England, Italy and the list goes on.

I marvel at what the younger generation is doing in the timberframing world today as they push the timberframe homes to their limit to please the builders.

I was discussing the 3 bay barn that I reconstructed using the original as my blueprint so to speak. My main objective was to preserve for future generations the fast disappearing barns and other outbuildings, that were constructed in my immediate area, realizing that there probably were changes due to the many ethnic groups that settled here in 1784 climate being another factor in a style change.

I am sure that I am boring some that are dropping in so I am signing off for tonight.

Thanks for the feedback

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/26/08 01:14 AM

Hi everyone

Just out of curiosity since I have never read one of Sobon's books, could you give some of his background

Thanks

Nh
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/26/08 10:15 AM

Jack does not use a computer so he cannot answer peresonally here. I do not know him too well but I will share what I know.

Jack is a liscensed architect who has been studying historic timber framing for over two decades. He is a hands on researcher: for example, one of his recient topics has been English barns. In studying English barns, he built one at his house using traditional methods and tools, even raising it by himself with a gin pole.

Jack and Tedd Benson, who reciently replied to the interupted plate thread on this forum, have come to represent two opposing philosophies of timber framing: study and reproduce traditional frames using old techniques to relearn some of the lost information verses Tedd's forward looking, modernistic approach.

Jack, sponsored by the National Park Service, put together the book Historic American Timber Joinery: A Graphic Guide. To me this book is a very important record of wooden building joints in North America. He has collected information on about 12 more joints which were not included in the first edition and there are probably more out there. Everyone should have this book and when an unrecorded joint is located, the information should be recorded and sent to Jack. Not to be critical, but this book does not (yet) include information on the use of wall planks such as plank-on-frame or true plank houses, the shapes of posts (gunstock, joweled, taipered, etc.), or some nailed joints (hip jack rafters are usually nailed onto the hip rafters).

Currently he is studying steeples. One big advantage Jack has in not using a computer is the steeple drawings he has been producing for Timber Framing are so complex they cannot be done with a CAD system, only by hand (so far!).

I am sure there is alot more to the story.

Jim

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/27/08 12:58 AM

Good evening everyone

It is always nice to have a message or reply waiting and yours was great Jim.

Thanks for the background information on Mr. Sobon, I have heard his name, book and workmanship passed back and forth as a reference medium many times, it seems to me that he possess a great deal of background information on true historical timberframing, and other topics, my hat is off to him.

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/27/08 01:39 PM

I have attended a Jack Sobon workshop taught at the Shaker Village in Hancock, MA. And I speak to him at least several times a year, on my travels to the western side of our state.

Part of his personal history is that he worked for Richard Babcock of Williamstown, MA for many years while going to college for architecture. Richard Babcock has written several books most of which are self published, so the only way you can get one is to buy it from him. I had the opportunity to listen to Richard Babcock speak at a guild conference once. At that time I bought a book from him.

His business was to take apart frame of barns and houses, repair and re-erect these frames. Sometimes for private clients, sometimes for historic associations and/or groups. Lots of these were done in MA and up and down the Hudson River valley of NY.

When you read Jack Sobon's book of Historic Joinery you'll see in the notes where the joint was found. That is what size and type the building it was used in, and it's geographical location in the States. It is possible that lots of these joints where found as he worked for Richard, as a young man.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: Joel McCarty

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/27/08 05:03 PM

It should be noted that Historic American Joinery and the pending steeple publication (as well as others) are Guild projects conceived, refined and run by the excellent Will Beemer.

He writes the grants to the National Park Service (every two years).

He assembles the team (Jack Sobon, Ed levin, Ken Rower and Jan Lewandoski), and begins the long process of publication, in cahoots with Ken Rower.

Finally shepherding the resulting articles into a monograph, usually with additional commentary not appearing in the original publications (in Timber Framing).

Guild members and TF Subscribers get to see this stuff long before the general public - just in case we got something terribly wrong.

Most of this material is now available for free download from the TFG website. Links are on the bottom of the homepage. Also for sale in analog format on the TFG webstore, and through the granting agency, the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training. (A cool bunch of folks who write training materials for NPS employees - the NPS is the nation's landlord of historic structures; we're proud to have been recognized by them as experts in our particular and peculiar field.)

So hats off to Will Beemer from bringing a great idea to life and keeping it going, to the team for doing all the work, and to the National Park Service for paying the bills.

-Joel McC

Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/27/08 11:23 PM

I'll second that.....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/28/08 01:15 AM

Hi everyone tonite

thanks Jim and Joel for the replies and more background material on Jack Sobon, and Will Beemer--- you know the old saying behind every good man there is a great-----------

I'll also second that....

NH

Posted By: dave felshaw

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/30/08 01:32 PM

Question! My Great-great Grandfather was awarded a contract to "frame and counter hew" a grain mill for a $1.77 1/2 cents per 10 square. I understand frame, but what is counter hew?
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/30/08 03:38 PM

Originally Posted By: dave felshaw
Question! My Great-great Grandfather was awarded a contract to "frame and counter hew" a grain mill for a $1.77 1/2 cents per 10 square. I understand frame, but what is counter hew?


Dave,

I've seen the term "counter-hew" only once before -- in the book Light and Heavy Timber Framing Made Easy (FT Hodgson, 1909). Here is a link.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kkk1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=%22counter+hew%22&source=web&ots=c4wtiUOI6W&sig=HF_TvsK5J1eQp7aU0POr9DIho44&hl=en


This term means the process of "re" hewing timbers as part of the layout/cutting process to make the timbers closer to square and closer to dimension. It is done when laying out by the square rule on hewn material. When you snap your layout lines (at say 2" from the edge), there will be places that due to irregularities in the hewing will stick out more than 2" from the layout line. Counter hewing is the process of hewing off the places that are "proud" of the theoretical edge.

This can be done just at the joints or on the whole stick. If it is done just at the joints then at the tenons, it is basically reducing both sides of a tenon.

I think this would have been an important part of the process when a carpenter was using timbers that were supplied (or hewn) by the farmer/owner, which in my understanding, was fairly common.
(We all know what it is like to follow someone else's work.)

Now, you've got to tell us more about the contract! Where, when, what, how big, how much, did it include the raising or just framing/counterhewing?

Could you scan it and post a link? or pictures?

I would love to know more!


GH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/31/08 01:06 AM

Hi everyone:

Thanks for coming on board with a bit of your family history Dave.

The "Counter Hewing" question replied to by Gabel Is well answered. The reference that I have seen is in an 1865 book written by William E Bell entitled "Carpentry Made Easy"

In it he refers to Counter hewing a timber that has a heavy wind (twist), and he in particular mentions doing only 2 sides (the reference sides) ie; outside and upper side say of a plate.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/10/08 01:32 AM



Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/10/08 01:42 AM

Hi everyone I am sorry for being away but I had business to attend to.

This photo is of 2 of my best friends and co workers, they worked together as a pair on heavy hewing projects, we had altogether 3 pairs that worked and filled in on each other's days off.

Earl and Donny could work on very hot days for 6 to 7 hours, you will notice the historical heavy clothing that they wore, unbelievable as it may seem it seemed to shelter them from the heat of the day. I wore similar clothing and I can honestly say that I seemed to be cooler than the general public approaching the work areas with their modern attire. I used to feel sorry for them with their burnt areas.

Well anyway I hope you enjoy this scene it is as accurate as one could possibly make it.

You will notice that work progressed along with two men because one could rest and interpret while the other focused his attention ot the work at hand. It is almost impossible to work and talk and keep focused on what you are doing if you are alone, it becomes very unsafe also.

NH
Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/10/08 02:52 AM

Can't see a picture, and I want to see these guys stylin' with axes and the gear!!
Steve
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/12/08 12:53 AM









Good evening everyone:

Waccabuc: The picture is in a previous post but I will resend it as per your request:
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/14/08 01:26 AM

Hi everyone

Waccabuc could you receive the photo OK

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/18/08 01:12 AM



Hi everyone:

Just a little change of pace and back to basics again

Here is a photo of a few of the large mud sills (12" by 12" by 30 feet) being prepared adjacent to the reconstruction area.

In the foreground you can see on of my favorite tools, I have just finished fashioning out a tenon with it and also in the background you will see the tenon guage that I use to make sure that the exterior size of the tenon is as accurate as possible. this is obtained by sliding the guage along as it is being created.

these timbers were created from large hemlocks that squared 12" at 30 feet, each timber took a tremendous amount of work considering that the large ends were over 36" in diameter.

the whole network of timbers making up the floor alone took us 1 full season to create (may 15 to sept 15), and contained the largest of the timbers that were hand hewn.

I hope you enjoy
NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/18/08 05:36 AM

Hi Richard,

Please add "Mud Sills" to the glossary together with a definition for same. Is this the same as ground sill ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/18/08 09:15 PM

NH / Ken:

I know "Mudsill" as a regional term here in the Nothern US. It's completely the same as sill, just refers to horizontal timbers that rest in the mud so to speak (ground contact). I find it often used by the elder generations. No offense NH!!

I guess it's one of those varriations, like "crow's foot" or "birds mouth"... same reference...


NH:

That tenon gauge reminds me of something I use to make canoe paddles with: a notched board. Mine is made of plywood w/ an 1 1/8" throat to measure shaft diameter on the paddles as I use a spoke shave.
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/18/08 10:05 PM

Mudsill, in my understanding, is a sill on a foundation bedded in mortar ie mud.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/20/08 05:19 PM

Hi everyone:

I sure enjoy the comraderie between you guys, and Don no offense on "the older generation thing" I am older and proud of it in lots of ways!

I always knew the lower sills to be called mud sills the term was picked up from my father's generation of craftsmen, and just carried forward.

We also used a false tenon guage for the mortise holes that fit exactly the tenon guage in the photo. If you used both of them as you created the various mortises and tenons, you could be fairly sure that everything was going to fit providing all other criteria was met, such as squareness, and the timbers being in plane.

We had a discussion a while back on seatings on the upper sides of the mud sills, you can see we have prepared the locations of the vertical posts of the upperframework as you look in the background at some of the other timbers lying around in the preparation area.

Some of the longer timbers were 36 feet in length (the barn being 3- 12 foot bays), and these timbers in the rough were about 38 feet long to allow for trimming and squaring the ends.

I believe you can see one of these adjacent to the foreground timber.

Thanks everyone for coming on board

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/20/08 10:24 PM

Glad no offense NH...

The tenon gauge makes perfect sense... where would we be w/out our little jigs and fixtures!?!?

I'm thinking Mudsill would be a good "member name" for a new forum member. I just checked the "M" user list. There's "Mudd" and "Mudman" but no Mudsill (yet)...
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/23/08 01:40 AM

Hi everyone:

further to this topic:

I beleive there are a few persons in our midst that would appreciate just what I am referring to when I am talking about these large hemlocks in the rough------

"squaring 12" at 36 feet"

I travelled this area for about 100 square miles to get my eyes on trees of the right specie, of the right size ( as best I could ascertain from ground level), and of course they had to be straight as well.

Cutting them for this project seemed to make it worth while, but I still hated to see them fall knowing full well they had escaped the saw many times to have attained their height and size.

7 hemlock trees of this size were required just for the floor structure, and then for the upper framework 9 more of the same length but slightly smaller, and then all the posts and girts that made up the framing.

Please remeber this is just a small 3 bay barn nothing really special other than of course the early age of the structure, the unusual framing details, the hand hewn braces, the wooden door hinges, and other details referred to in previous posts.

Hope you enjoy this trip down memory lane



NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/28/08 01:33 AM



Hi everyone tonight:

Here is a good view of the mud sills, and timbers for the ross barn floor, being lifted and fitted in their positions.

You can see that it takes about 5 or 6 pairs of men to lift and carry the heavy timbers with comealong timber carriers.


I am open for questions if any comes to your mind(s)
about any details in the photo.

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/28/08 01:42 AM

Hi everyone:

before I leave, and because I can't change my post (edit button does not work yet), you will notice in the background the long timbers waiting to be hewn.

We worked out right along the roadway so that we were quite visible, and accessible to the visiting public.

Many of the old Amish order and the Mennonite people especially would come and gather around with their families. The older folk would come and express their thanks for the display, and thought that it was great that the old trades and the historic structures were being reconstructed and saved by the Ontario Government's facility at UCV.

NH
Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/28/08 02:16 PM

Yes, I see it now. Thanks for another good picture. Those boys look just right.
Good way you had - one hewing and one explaining to onlookers.
Steve
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/01/08 12:55 AM



Hello everyone tonight:

It sure is rainy here tonight, but when we were working on the timbers in the photo it was dry ande hot hot summer.

This photo is an event staged on the Labour Day celebrations and it was this time every year that we would have a timberframing event to coordinate and put together the project that was ongoing for that season.

You can see the timber network in the foreground that took us the full open season to hand hew and timberframe ready for this event.

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/01/08 01:02 AM

Hello again tonight

It sure would be nice to be able to edit our posts but as yet no luck.

The network of timbers in the foreground are those that make up the barn floor structure between the first and third bays of the barn, and has a centre supporting beam that is noticeable in the photo.

You will also notice that the timbers are all left round on the sides and bottom, with just the tops being flattened. This technique makes the timbers about twice as strong as being squared, and with alot less work.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/12/08 01:20 AM



Hi everyone: sorry to have been away from you all but the summer is time to get a way from it all for a few days.


This photo is of a dovetail connection between one of the vertical timbers that make of a bridge truss in the attic of a 1865 church.

You will notice the end of the wedge that was driven in from underneath. This wedge forces the half dovetail sideways securely holding the horizontal bottom chord of the truss from dropping down. This bottom chord by the way is 45 feet long and is a hand hewn northern white pine.

Over the years the joint has opened up slightly probably due to shrinkage of the timber parts.

Hope you enjoy, and I appreciate any comments or questions that you might have.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/12/08 01:33 AM



Hi everyone again tonight:

Because I have been away for a few days here is another photo of the work as it was ongoing in the Ross Barn yard during the reconstruction.

You will notice in particular in the foreground one of our measuring poles that we used in all our layout work.


We had various lengths from 14 feet right down to 24" that was indispensible as we did identical layout work as we moved from timber to timber

If you have any questions feel free to comment and come on board

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/22/08 12:59 AM

Hi everyone:

I just would like to add as a comment to the last photo, the lad working with the mallet in the background, (was) my lead timberframer on many reconstruction projects.

Gerry St. Pierre was a very dependable person and could be relied on to carry through complicated reconstruction projects on tight schedules.

He is now in a better place but he will be and is remembered at every opportunity. I do wish that he could meet each and everyone of you, I am sure that you would enjoy reminiscing with him the good and bad and I might say scary parts of past events

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/22/08 01:26 AM





[IMG]

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o198/Hewer/TimberFramingandStaff171.jpg[/IMG]


Hi everyone tonight:

Well back to basics again.

Every once in a while I like to return to hand hewing something that I loved to do for many years.

In this photo I am putting on the "Finishing Pass" along a pine timber.

For some of you that might not be familiar with my hewing terms the finishing pass is removing the last 3/4" of material along the log you are working on. this will bring you or in this case me as I work right down to the blue chalk line that is the reference finished surface.

Now it will still be a rough surface but should exhibit the tell tale bite of the scoring axe-- just slightly--and these marks should be approx 3" to 4" inches apart.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/22/08 01:30 AM



sorry for the problem with the photo in the previous post-- we can't seem to edit yet for some reason

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/23/08 01:09 AM



Hi everyone tonight:

If anyone has any questions regarding last night's photo that shows me scoring the 3rd side of a pine timber please feel free to do so.

This next photo is one that shows me using the carpenter's adze.
I always paid close attention and kept focused on the area of work. It is impossible to visit and talk while adzing, you have to stop work and then respond to questions, at least that is what I have found out over the years.

One little slip is all that is needed to create a serious situation or injury.

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/23/08 01:16 AM

Hi everyone

For those that might need instruction in the use of these tools visit the tools for sale section of this web site and I will be glad to help you in any way I can.

Thanks again for stopping by

NH
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/23/08 01:59 AM

kneepads, NH, kneepads
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/25/08 12:45 AM

Hi Mark:

Yes knee pads for sure especially for those that are learning, we weren't allowed to use safety clothing or accessories as we worked in the 1860's context. We had to work carefully and as safely as possible, but even then accidents can happen.

All the working historic mills contained many questionable safety areas, but we did try and work in safety as much as possible using training and other methods.

That is why as you travel around the country many of the historic sites have only static displays whereas UCV was a completely operational site from one end to the other with around 125 costumed interpreters.

Thanks for coming on board,

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/12/08 01:11 AM



Hi everyone:

It has been a while since I have posted something new from my collection of photos, this one is the attic of an 1865 lutheran church and shows quite plainly the truss system for the roof.

Near the centre of the picture you can see the 1.8th inch wrought iron rod that suspends the centre of the lower chord of the truss. This lower chord is 12 by 12 hewn pine and is 45 feet long

You can also notice how a purling plate sits on top of the trusses and about centre, and the rafters are positioned on top
The original roofing lumber visible from underneath is all muley sawn no doubt by a local mill and are quite wide but as usual not that long.

One thing that astounded me when I first visited this location was the excellent condition of the wooden parts after all the years.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/17/08 12:39 AM



Hi everyone,

I have been away for a while and I just noticed that many are still dropping by for a visit to my site. Here is a good view of an attachment point that emphasizes just how much wood is removed at times to accomodate a building's structure, and yet seems to continue to be very strong.

this building's original ancestor was well over 200 years of age and going strong

Here is a good view of one of the front vertical posts of the driveshed that we had just put up a few years ago.

I thought that it might be a conversation piece because of all the different horizontal tiebeam attachments, as well as the mortise for the brace from the upper main plate
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/08 01:07 AM

Hi everyone

To break the monotony, tonight I have a question for those that are looking in, and maybe we will learn alittle as we go along:

I would like to discuss and talk about the subject of pitch of roofs.

To start off would anyone like to suggest what the following term represents if you were asked to construct a roof containing:



a) 1\3 pitch

For the benefit of all looking in please state in your reply the inches per foot of rise, and the degree of corresponding inclination, and the length of the common rafter needed to make up the roof of a building 24 feet in width.

(The roof will have no ridge and the rafters will half lap at their peak and be pinned.)

This is a timberframed building with a heavy upper plate, that will be mortised to accept a cog on the bottom foot of the rafter, with no eve overhang.

I hope you will join in

NH
Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/08 10:01 PM

Well here's my guess,
1/3 of 24 is 8 so this is an 8/12 pitch. An 8/12 is about 33-3/4 degrees.

This is one way of figuring the length, just remember Pythagoras. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. The diagram shows how I found the lengths of each of the three sides. I then divided the length of the rafter side by the length of the run side. This gives me the ratio of the rafter to the run, the line length ratio.

For every foot (or inch, or whatever increment) of horizontal run, the rafter is 1.2017 units long for an 8/12 pitch. You are 12' of horizontal run so 144"x1.2017= measuring along the top, roughly 173-1/16".
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/08 10:55 PM

I think a 1/3 pitch is really a 4/12.

Given that, using the same equation I get a hypotenuse of ~12.65

12.65 X 12' of run = 151.8" for rafter length. (But it's been awhile. I'm not a math whiz...)

How we doing Northern Hewer?
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/08 11:39 PM

144" divided by .8321=173.0561, which is just a tad under 1/16. It is a 8/12 pitch and the degree, 33.69139. Source, A Timber Framer's Workshop, Steve Chappell. The tangent is .6667, anyone superstitious? How historically prevalent is this roof slope?

Tim
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/29/08 12:35 AM

This is my pet peeve, the term PITCH has to many uses and meanings. I was trained that PITCH is rise over span and SLOPE is rise over run. So the diverse meanings for pitch do lead to the confusion of usage of the previous posts.

Tim, I see old 8/12 roofs.
Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/29/08 04:13 AM

I agree w you Roger. I learned it that way from the booklet that came w my 1st Stanley Steel Square. Then use slope (rise over run) analogously on the tongue and blade of the framing (Steel) square to step out the rafter Length (hypotenuese).

I see lots of old houses and barns w 8/12 roofs, some 9/12 too. But 8/12 is a noticeable break point, or break angle, for the human feet and balance not to slip or tumble easily. Working on a 9/12 slope roof demands much more attention and energy for balance and grip, and thus slows down the pace of the work significantly. "Time is money" also applied in the good old thrifty days. Gumshoes are good. 8/12 sheds rain and melting snow, taking along accumulated debris quite well. Lower pitch roofs hold more seeds, leaves, needles and dampness, giving moss, lichen, bacteria and fungus a good growing medium which can destroy roofing material faster than UV radiation.
Finding balance - that's a good life.
Seems the term pitch isn't used so much anymore.
Steve
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/08 01:01 AM

Hi everyone:

thanks for coming on board, I am sure everyone is enjoying this discussion.

I would ask what everyone thinks of this in relation to pitches of roofs:

This is a method to lay out a roof to a 1\3rd pitch, related in a 100 yr old text,

(remember this is to make it exactly a 1\3rd pitch)

a) draw AB AND BC at right angles
b) describe an arc from A
c) divide the arc in 3 equal parts as indicated by E and E1
d) draw lines from E and E1 connecting them to A
e) place a square with the blade on 12 on A and the tongue so that it disects the arc
f) Placing the square as shown we find that a third pitch (or hexagon mitre) is 7 inches to the foot instead of 8 as most workmen suppose

Using the same method we find:

The quarter pitch (or octagon mitre) is 5 inches to the foot,

The half pitch or (square mitre) is 12 inches to the foot

Hope you enjoy--please comment

NH


Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/08 02:06 PM

Hewer, your example matches "Practical Uses of the Steel Square" by Fred Hodgson. This method is unlike the common methods of defining PITCH, such as rise over run or rise over span, instead he uses a method of dividing the arc of the quadrant, a method of angular description which will not agree with the rise over span or the rise over run methods. It is an absurd idea that tells the world that it is wrong and Hodgson knows the exact way. Very strangely, everything that follow in the Hodgson text refutes this method.
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/08 05:38 PM

In Hodgson's Practical Uses of the Steel Square Volume 1, Mr. Hodgson quotes the instructions that came with a Sargent framing square as saying the following:

"The pitch is the proportion that the rise bears to the whole width of the building."

So a 1/3 pitch would be 8 inches of rise to a foot of run, as others have said.

Roger,

Where does Hodgson outline that screwed up version of pitch? I couldn't find it in my copy of PUOTSS.

Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/08 05:44 PM

Gabel, the middle of page 202 and read on.

http://books.google.com/books?id=8Uk1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=steel+square+hodgson#PPA202,M1
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/08 06:54 PM

Found it -- i was looking in my later edition and had to pull out the older version.

It's funny, he outlines that method and then immediately says not to use it, as no one else does and the commonly used way will be "near enough". what was he trying to do? why mention it?
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/08 07:54 PM

It is supposed to be a clarifying example, that claims theoretical correctness but on examination is a muddle. The whole example steams with attitude and lacks rigor. In a following paragraph our square savant does battle with learned quidnuncs.

All in all, Hodgson give me a headache. His various books seem like a cut and paste out of his other books. He needed a clear minded editor.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/08 12:08 AM

Hi again everyone:

Especially: Don, Our barns,Timbeal, Roger, Waccabuc, Gabel

I do agree his approach is hard understand at times, but all in all I do believe his heart was in the right spot.

He stresses that one should know and understand the various aspects of the use of the steel square, eventhough at times it seems to clash with reality.

Anyone studying his books will glean some new understanding of roof framing besides that which comes nicely bundled up from the factory with steel bands around the various sections nowadays.

Today I was talking with a vary good framer for a while, and the subject came around to framing in a complicated roof structure with valleys and hips. He really had never had to even think about such things as framing and cutting rafters to accomodate roof slopes because it was always there to be unbundled and most times fit where it was supposed to.

Fred Hodgson's works overall I salute because having been written before the modern trend started tries to waken up those that are aspiring into the realm of the carpentry world as it was known at that time with various descriptions that were around at that time and zeros in on the use of the steel square in paricular.

I have read various old texts written before Hodgson's works one was "carpentry made easy" by William E Bell (1858). It had sections that related to the construction of timberframe structures using hewn material, which I found very interesting but the terminology would sometimes slow you down.

Oh yes sorry about the headache Roger

NH



Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/01/08 03:40 PM

I checked Google Books and found 'Carpentry Made Easy' by William Bell, based on a quick scan I think this is worthwhile book to study. As in real estate the three most important factors are location, location and location, Bells opening chapter in building math suggests to me that the three most important factors in carpentry are proportion, proportion and proportion. Bell addresses the pitch problem as a dicotomy between building specification and true inclination.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WnwOAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=carpentry+made+easy+bell#PPA43,M1

I suppose pitch has long been a source of confusion.
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/01/08 03:51 PM

spelling typo dichotomy
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/01/08 11:40 PM

Hi Roger and others:

Thanks for going that extra mile Roger and finding William Bell's book on Google.

I tried to click on your location marker and was blocked for some reason, anyway thanks again this time for William Bell.

He was from what I understand an architect and builder in his time and seemed to know what he was talking about.

Was the book for sale on Google?, I was just wondering how you were able to review the book's content.

NH
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/02/08 12:14 AM

The link should work or at least it works for me. The book is public domain and is free to view and download through Google Books.

http://books.google.com/bkshp?hl=en&tab=wp

Type in the search window title and author.
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/02/08 07:31 PM

I believe that the content on google books may only be accesible in the States. I know that a forum user in the UK last year couldn't access a book I had linked to.

Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/02/08 08:04 PM

Gabel, that makes sense. Since copyright laws vary nation by nation it could be useful for UK or Canadian members to do a search from Google Books UK or a Canadian Google portal.

Hewer, the page from Bell that I linked to is 43 from the 1859 edition.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/09 08:54 PM


Hello everyone:


There are many good topics floating around on the many different chat subjects, I would like to talk a bit about raising frames.

I am a personal great believer in using man power to raise frames safely, I feel that you have much more control over things providing that you have sufficient bodies around to make it happen.

Mechanical power in an historic sense usually was a gin pole, i have had to utilize it when sufficient man power was not available, but found it less than OK when taking both options into account. I guess the chance of mechanical breakdown is always there to haunt one when the lift takes place and the ropes tighten and you can hear and see the strain as everything slowly settles into its lifting mode.

I always felt very confident when just ropes and pike poles were the main lifting factor.

Anyone have any comments?

NH
Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/25/09 02:16 PM

The main lifting factor is human effort, fine as long as its well planned and executed. On stick frame jobs I've been hurt when too few men tried to tackle more than they could, when one person loses heart in a pinch everyone else suffers. From something I read once it was common in communities of old to see men who were victims of a lift gone sour. If you are a good planner, communicator and excell at directing groups then it works fine. I prefer to let some form of machine do the heavy work and I control it. I'm more a creature of the deep woods and don't care for the frenzy of groups. Although I don't care for the time pressure it instills, if I need to a crane is my preference.

This shot is a windlass gin we rigged up to tip up a few bents. Using a simple machine my wife and I tipped these up, no hurry, no flurry, no liability. No one is in the path of a drop, a cable failure could still get us I suppose, we were at a fraction of the working load of the cable. A runaway windlass handle was probably my greatest concern. A round windlass wheel and ratchet catch would lessen that possibility greatly

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/09 01:21 AM

Hi Don:

Thanks for stopping in with a great pic, and your approach to the lifting mode problems.

Boy, When you mentioned the round windlass wheel, it sure brought back old memories from days gone by.

At UCV we had in storage, house and barn moving equipment that included rollers, and the winch apparatus which was a simple wertical wooden shaft about 8 " in diameter set into a moveable skid with a bottom and top wooden bearing. tha vertical shaft had near the top slots to insert a long pole maybe 12 feet in
length.

You could literally move just about anything including a 3 bay barn or house by mooring the skid to a dead man or other permanent object, and then attaching a cable or heavy rope to the object to be moved and thence around the vetical shaft.

If the object was really heavy you could insert a set of pulley blocks between the winch and the object to be moved to increase the pulling power of the winch. This scheme could again be increased by increasing proportionatly the number of sheaves in the pulley blocks

I interviewed a gentleman who specialized in moving buildings with such an apparatus, and he said he often used only the power of one person walking around pushing the pole on the winch, he said it was sufficient to move a very large barn.

I also ran across a winch in a driveshed that was mounted above one of the bays, it consisted of just a round axle sitting in 2 wood bearings at the ends, and had smsll round poles that were inserted in the shaft near one end, that could be used to rotate the shaft to lift any number of different objects, a good alternative for today's stationary hydraulic\electric power units

This is alittle off subject but I also ran across water powered winches that were used to hoist bags of wheat and other forage grains to various levels of gristmills. These winches were very simply constructed using again horizontal wood shafts and friction pulleys their adaption can be explained more fully if anyone wishes just ask.

Thanks for coming on board everyone, I hope you enjoy this foray into the days of yesteryear and to peak into the uneducated minds of those that could really imagine solutions to countless numbers of seemingly unendless moving and hoisting problems, of course one being to raise the frames of large barns\houses outbuildings and mills in times of low manpower. This is not to mention tearing out tree stumps and moving large rocks in the land clearing early phase of the settlement of any area.

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/09 02:23 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
....the winch apparatus which was a simple vertical wooden shaft about 8 " in diameter set into a movable skid with a bottom and top wooden bearing. that vertical shaft had near the top slots to insert a long pole.......



Similar to what was described:




Windlass that we made from above picture:



Quote:

I also ran across a winch in a drive-shed that was mounted above one of the bays, it consisted of just a round axle sitting in 2 wood bearings at the ends, and had small round poles that were inserted in the shaft near one end, that could be used to rotate the shaft to lift any number of different objects..


Sometimes called a "beef roll" as it was used to lift livestock for butchering:



This one had a wagon wheel on the end to use so that the pull rope went over the wheel which increased the mechanical advantage.

I just thought I'd add some pictures to show what was described....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/09 01:00 AM

HI Jim:

Thanks for coming on line and also with the wonderful pics of both types of lifting and pulling apparatuses

Both of the types that I described were quite a bit cruder in construction especially the overhead one that I stumbled across in the Schwerdfeger driveshed, it just had hand made poles stuck in holes at the end of the shaft.

The barn moving apparatus that I described was I believe (from the photos you posted) mounted on a heavier skid. You would have really enjoyed I am sure talking to Mr. Burchell the lad who I intervied and who had made moving buildings his main source of income for many years. He got out the fiddle and we had a great time for part of an afternoon.

I wonder if you had ever ran across early historical mill windlass equipment like I described. The ones that I examined were in mills close to Staten Island and in southern New York State, and Maine.

Thanks again for posting for everyone to see

NH
Posted By: mo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/09 06:24 AM

thanks for all the good info everyone, everyone starts at the peanut gallery. im a sponge.

p.s. cranes are too obtuse
trees for big machinery
driveways aren't too wide
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/09 11:46 AM

The last frame I raised went up with hands and two ginpoles. It was out of necessity, we had to walk into the remote site. It is just another tool in the box. I have added a snatch block to the bace of the pole this allows more hands on the rope without folks getting in others way, more ellbow room.

Tim
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/09 10:02 PM

Originally Posted By: mo
thanks for all the good info everyone, everyone starts at the peanut gallery. im a sponge.

p.s. cranes are too obtuse
trees for big machinery
driveways aren't too wide


nice one, Mo
maybe we need a haiku section of this forum?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/09 01:00 AM

Hi Timbeal and others:

Timbeal I always put a snatch block at the base of the Gin Pole in my raisings, and then from there I used a single horse to do the main pull with men following up with pikes across the face of the bent.

I made the use of safety ropes that followed up with the bent and could at a seconds notice secure and hold the lift.

Thanks again for coming on with your pesonal experiences.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/09 01:01 AM

Timbeal I am interested in the fact that you used 2 gin poles, was it because it was a heavy lift or was there another reason?

Just curious

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/09 12:22 PM

The second pole goes up easier than the first and moving one from one side of the building to the other for the top plates than back for some other task and back for another. Two was a temptation and that is the way it went. It was in the plan from the start. We stood the bents up by hand, they were planed to be raised with the gin poles, I was unsure of the number of hand available. The whole building could of gone up by hand but at more risk and grunt.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/29/09 01:18 AM

HI Timbeal


Thanks for the reply, putting up 2 gin poles certainly would advantageous if one was contemplating a busy day.

This thought never crossed my mind during our building raisings to have 2 already set up at the start of the day's proceedings it sure would have been an asset.

I found that during the taking down and putting up again of the gin pole in a new location there was a general lull in the interest factor and participants interest also

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/29/09 11:42 AM

NH, I also made up a couple metal caps for the top of the poles. A 6" pipe with a flat plate on top with four holes for the lines. This allows the pole to be twisted with out winding the guys around the top of the pole. A big relief I must say. Some day I would like to see a universal pivit for the bottom allowing the pole to be tilted in any direction and still be anchored down well.(a universal joint from a large trucks drive line). And maybe a boom atached as well, like on a ship, allowing timber to be lifted and swung into place so the pole wouldn't have to be moved, perhaps. For now I am really happy with my four-rope caps.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/09 12:32 AM

Hi Timbeal and others:

I also capped the gin with a metal cap I had the blacksmith fashion it with 4 wrought Iron rings to hook ropes and pulley blocks.

One thing that I did on the two securing lines was to use two sets of 1\2" rope double sheave pulley blocks, this really helped to fine tune and adjust the cant of the gin

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/09 12:35 AM

NH:
Got any pictures?

Timbeal:
Same for you.....
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/09 11:14 AM

I am having problems with the machine which houses my pictures, when this is fixed I will post some.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/09 01:10 AM

Hi JIm and tim

Jim if you look back on this site you will see some pics of a couple of the raisings that we did at UCV using a gin to assist in the raising.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/09 03:00 PM

Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
I would like to see a universal pivit for the bottom allowing the pole to be tilted in any direction and still be anchored down well.(a universal joint from a large trucks drive line).

Tim


Tim:

Sounds like a universal pivot on the end of a pole is a great idea. A truck's u-joint, like you say, is one option. And I bet some sort of "ball and socket" configuration is possible too... maybe a large trailer hitch ball set into something, or a pintle hitch set-up.

Yankee ingenuity grin
Posted By: Emmett Greenleaf

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/09 07:59 PM

an articulated gin pole/derrick. already been done. used a lot by the VMI cadets on their annual project(s). see pictures from the Ferry Farm Project. Designed for quick up/down with line storage in galv garbage cans. Base is also a skid block. Maybe we could entice Grigg Mullen to publish some drawings.
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/09 11:02 PM


NH –

I too, am fond of manpower, though I‘m not much for pikes or lifts without an assist from some mechanical advantage. With even multipart tackle we’re still in simple machine territory, not much to break down.

Not only is it always big fun to raise this way, sometimes it is just the right tool for the job.

I’ve shared the same story as Tim, literally gotten work because the other framers the client called first weren’t interested in raising on some out of the way inaccessible site, without a crane.

And in this instance, a frame I raised (with the help of many – a workshop cut frame) back in ‘ 01 at the New Hampshire Farm Museum it really was the best tool in the box.

Necessarily a piece on piece raising, it took two full days to assemble.(a long time for a scribed frame) Though the use of the derrick was to add interest to the workshop, it also was a little cheaper than raising with a crane and safer and allowed for far greater control than swinging pieces with the telehandler.

One person to lift each stick, and somebody behind them to tail the rope, one person to turn the mast and luff the spar, and two monkeys on the frame to seat either end of each stick.



Here we are removing the spar, and about to swing the derrick mast out from the center of the frame, and then swing the cubidle up into place (Yes a tree service crane was there for fortyfive minutes – no half day rate though, they volunteered to the museum)



The heart of the derrick was a set of castings (a base plate and box to ride it and the guy line ring and swivel and the fittings to fit the end of the spar and mast) which used make their living at one of the states many granite quarries, and are part of the collection at the museum. The raised spar (raised to put it above the frames roof system) is not traditional, and called for a nontraditional mast, a forty foot length of schedule 80 6” thickwall pipe and a little welding and fab.

And is it just me ? Does this thread not drive everyone batty ? Can’t the offending oversized photograph be re-sized or deleted ?


Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/09 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Will Truax

Can’t the offending oversized photograph be re-sized or deleted ?


Only the moderator can do that.....
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/09 11:20 PM

Um ya, or the person who put it up.

Not wondering who can do it, just asking that it might be considered.
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/01/09 12:32 AM

Can you edit any of your previous posts?
I can't edit mine....

So again, only the moderator can do it....

It seems that the time for editing is very short.....again.....

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/01/09 01:23 AM

HI everyone:


thanks for all the input and pics, you never know what might come out of a subject but this has really been a good run, and I am sure educational for everyone stopping in.

One thing that I have always been pondering over the years was how the builders from old hoisted up into place the 45 foot stack on the steam engine at UCV, now we used a crane when we restored it in '84

There was a good 1870 photograph of the stack lying on an incline with its top resting on the roof of the steam engine house when it was being installed at that time it was from this photograph that we were able to reconstruct the stack faithfully to its original design

This stack was quite heavy I would say probably about 2000 lbs
It had to be lifted up in a vertical position, above the roof of the steam engine house and gently lowered down onto the top of the boiler,that was already installed and waiting for the stack to be positioned.

In my mind this is the proceedure that I believe they used:

-utilizing a 40 foot gin pole, and grasped the stack slightly above the centre line. The lift began with ropes and cables attached

The stack was hoisted to the approximate height of 35 feet from the ground level. At this time the stack was gently stood upright the bottom approx 15 feet from the ground using mooring ropes attached to the bottom.

The gin and the vertical stack was then slowly positined over the opening in the roof and lowered carefully down into its final resting position on top of the boiler.

Final tethering of the stack then took place to complete the installation

I invite comments on this proceedure as it is only my idea just how this might have been done at that time we had no information about the installation just the photograph of the new stack ready for installation.

As I said I have pondered many times how this was done I am now inviting comments from you guys and maybe a few engineers out there who might be looking in.

Thanks again for stopping by

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/09 01:07 AM

Hi everyone looking in tonight:

Just a a further note to my posting last night, we also had in our collection a lovely painting of the mill along with the steam engine shed\house and the stack in place, secured with its guy lines 2 to the peak of the mill, and 2 in opposing directions I suspect to individual mooring probably 2 deadmen strategically located for that purpose.


The mill was gutted by a fire a few years after the painting was done very likely set by an overheated bearing in the husking frame, by the way does anyone know what the husking frame is and what its purpose is in relation to the milling equipment.


There are a quite a few people stopping by the site please feel free to join in and don't be shy.


For another guessing question in relation to the mill what horsepower do you think would be needed to operate the mill, its many elevators, shellers, 3 runs of stones and the bolter.


NH

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/09 01:24 AM

HI everyone:

It looks like no one wants to take a stab at a definition for :

Husking Frame:

The Husking frame in a grist mill is a very sturdy framework of timbers that suspend and hold very true the bed stones and their runners along with the spindles and located directly underneath is the turbine or driving power.

IN our mill the 4" vertical shaft that rises from the pressure pit where the turbine is located, extends upwards for 3 stories right up to the attic area, where it is then directed horizontally using gearing meant for that purpose and which is aattached to the horizontal shafting that in turn powers all sorts of equipment.

As the 4" shaft passes through the husking frame wooden pulleys are attached to it which power each of the 3 runs of stones using 12" pure leather belting.

This husking frame is completely independant of the mill structure especially if it is has stone walls, the reason being that the vibration that is generated during the grinding process would eventually destroy the very rigid walls.

The husking frame usually stands on a foundation that is also independant of the mill wall foundation, and is usually constructed using white oak timbers

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/09 02:27 AM

Hi everyone tonight

further to our discussion of the husking frame and associated equipment

In our mill the power source is complemented by steam power, which is located adjacent to the the mill structure and on a level that allows the power to be transmitted to the husking frame from the steam engine's flywheel which is 8 feet in diameter. the power is tranmitted using again 12 inch pure leather belting which was made special in England for this purpose. The belt is endless and is approximately 120 feet long

Both the steam engine and the 42" water turbine puts out equal horsepower which is in this case 45 hp and answers the question that I posed above and which I received no takers.

When the steam engine is engaged it in turns not only runs the mill equipment but has to revolve the water turbine because it is hooked directly to the shafting and there is no way to disengage it. In this regard it (the turbine)requires some water to lubricate the lignum vitae wood bearing that it spins on at all times. It also supplies some latent power due to the spinning action and the weight of itself as it spins at about 100 rpm.

As you get everything up and running the steam engine's flywheel the turbine, the grinding stones you are tapping into alot of energy sources just due to to revolving of all the different parts. This acts also like a governor and helps move the equipment through some of the tough grinding sequences, or as you engage extra milling equipment.

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/09 01:48 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Eventhough my background is mainly historic woodworking which involves hewing, timberframing, adzing, general historic carpentry, I also had to be able to produce authentic wall finishes which included not only wood finishes but plaster finishes using only historic mixtures.

As the years rolled by the operation and maintenance of the 1846 Mullay Saw mill became a part of my regular job description, which continued and ensued multiple repairs and restorations of the equipment and the mill itself.

When I talk about the Grist mill above you probably wonder how I became involved with that type of mill which seems to be so far removed from sawing lumber with a vertical blade. The task of installing the husking frame was suddenly part of my responsibility during the resoration process, then installing the steam engine which sits on a very heavy oak base which had to be custom made came up for me to fabricate and install, all this I enjoyed being a part of.

The mill itself needed some replacement sills and plates these were custom hewn to match the original ones, and had to be ready when the construction crew required them.

All in allit was a learning process, and working with various groups of tradesmen including and historic miller and his son I was introduced to and had to assist them in placing and setting the bed stones and runners, along with the pulleys and adjustments to the grinding stones.

One thing that I did learn was eventhough everything looks very crude to your eye, things like the stone adjustments were very accurate, and one could adjust the separation of the stones by the thousands of an inch increments due to the manner of the installation.

The same is true of the Mullay Saw milling equipment it looks very crude but in reality it's adjustments are like a fine watch

Well I guess I will sign off for tonight if there is anything dealing with the topics as I talk and explain day to day just leave me a note and I will be glad to expand on that particular topic for you

NH
Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/18/09 10:51 PM

This has nothing to do with historic hewing, but here are some shots of the rigging at a TFG raising--the Farm and Wilderness barn in VT. Three walls were raised from 2 ginpoles, guylines went to massive concrete blocks. Different sections of the camp raised the individual walls throughout one day. Roof framing was helped along by hydraulics.

You can sorta see the homemade pivot on the bottom of the poles, I believe it's part of the Guild's toolkit.





The smallest kids at the camp raised the center wall which was pretty cool to see:



And this is how the ginpoles went away...

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/25/09 01:37 AM

HI everyone tonight:
Thanks for the wonder pics timberwrestler I am sure that many will really enjoy them as well as myself. I wish that I could be a part of one of these wonderful get togethers, I know from experience that working with wood using any type of timbers hewn or otherwise can produce a wonderful, interesting, entertaining and educational event.

thanks for stopping in and sharing your experiences with everyone who seems to enjoy stoppoing by

NH




Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/03/09 01:57 AM

HI everyone tonight:

Well this next question is again a bit off the line from what we were talking about but I was just asked a question about supplying a bit of the history of square square nails for dating purposes.

From my research over the years square nails began being cut by newly patented machines about 1820 in Massechusets, and were improved upon year by year with new and better nail cutting machines. When you access the patent office records slight improvements and styles were to come forward as the patents and machines were put into service. This continued until the cutting of round nails was developed in the late 1800's and slowly edged out cut nails in the early 1900's at least around here.

These improvements usually came in the form of the nail heads, and the shank or body of the nails themselves.

One thing that I have wondered about though is did the square nail production in the States also run parallel with ahead of or behind say Britain or Europe.

Maybe Ken Hume could comment on this question I have always puzzled over this fact, realizing that Other countries also developed their own special patents to cover things such as cut nails for their own areas.

Thanks in advance

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/03/09 06:45 PM

Hi NH,

The person to answer this question is Chris How MSc. He is a Brit who now lives in Australia. Chris has studied and written much on nail development and especially in resepct of the development of patent nail cutting machines. I will forward your request on to Chris.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/03/09 10:24 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
HI everyone tonight:

One thing that I have wondered about though is did the square nail production in the States also run parallel with ahead of or behind say Britain or Europe.



NH:

Great subject...

The Audels "Carpenters and Builders Guide" (1923), states that at the end of the 18th century, American nail making machines were introduced to England where they were received w/ "great enthusiasm." (I assume the text is referring to cut nails).

And as far as Massachusetts goes, the text grants the first wire nail in America instead to a New Yorker in 1851.

It also states a German immigrant, a Catholic priest, who settled in Kentucky in 1876 formed the American Wire and Screw Nail Co. The priest learned the art of wire nails in his native Germany, so it sounds like some cross-continent stuff certainly went on.

The text does say Tauton, Massachusetts pretty much cornered the industry of "tack" making years ago.

Don't know how this info compares w/ what you've uncovered... anyway, looking forward to some more information from a scholar like Ken's contact.



Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/04/09 01:38 AM

Hi Ken


Thanks for stopping in with that contact person's name, I am really looking forward to hearing a response from him.

There is nothing like information from someone that has put a real effort into a particular subject and we all pretty well know that dating buildings makes a valuable use of nail types along with other factors to come to a knowledgeable conclusion.

I am sure that there are many others that are also waiting to hear his reply on this subject.

A few years ago there was a very good article on the "History of Nails Manufacturing" in one of the research magazines that came regularly to the library at UCV, the name of that magazine escapes me at the moment but I think that it came from a Washington source.

Thanks again for stopping in

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/04/09 01:46 AM

Hi again

This message is for Don:


Sorry for seeming to neglect your wonderful reply I didn't notice it when I opened up the site tonight and it wasn't until after I answered Ken's notes that I scrolled upwards and noticed your well stated and information filled reply.

Your mention that seems to imply that the tecnology flowed back towards Britain takes me by surprise, we will see what is forthcoming from Ken's friend in Australia.

Thanks again for coming on board

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/04/09 03:00 AM

Hi NH:

I do the same thing sometimes: miss peoples posts.

In reviewing your first post, I see you are focusing more on cut nails than the wire type, making some of my later comments less relevant. But the Audels book does state that American cut nail machines were brought to England first, not the other way around. Like yourself, I find this interesting and a bit counterintuitive. But thinking further, England was not awash in lumber like the Americas were at the time.

There must have been a great need for nails w/ all the forest resources (sawn lumber) from the many mills in the increasingly-industrial "New World." After all, England and Europe are home to no-nails-required systems like thatched roofs and wattle and daub, rather than shingles and board sheathing using many nails (just a hypothesis).

This book is a great study of New England historical methods of building. It covers cut nail manufacture and dates- pg. 24+25:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2W1Lq_nvlCQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=field+guide+new+england+barns#PPA24,M1

Again, nice topic. Looking forward to more discussion.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/05/09 01:40 AM

Hi Don:

thanks for being so understanding of an old TFer like me

It will be interesting to hear from Ken's contact in Australia I sure hope that he will stop by the site with his educated slant on this topic.


One has to be careful of articles that appear in magazines they sometimes are not backed up by accurate research.

When I had access to the UCV research library I could wander through publications like the canadian patent records which I did many times over the years to prove or disprove at times issues that were before me.

We also had issues of 1860 hardware catalogues that were filled with items that could be purchased by local stores for sale abroad and locally.

Circular saws in their primitive forms were there as well as cloth tape measures that could be rolled up much as our 50 foot tapes are today.

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/05/09 06:31 PM

No problem...

What do they say about old TFers?

"Old TFers never die, they just..."

Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/05/09 08:50 PM

Hi NH,

Chris How has come back to me and has asked me to post this on his behalf so over to Australia !! :-

You are much too kind in your description of my research. The bulk of the work has already been done in North America by Henry Mercer, Lee Nelson, Eric Sloane, Amos Loveday, Edwards & Wells, and very recently this year by Ryzewski & Gordon. I have only put the bits together and tried to fit in where we stand in Australia, and how the variations affect the UK.

To get a full appreciation I can forward my recent paper to Northern Hewer and others interested in this topic. NH is on the right track, and things that went on in USA were quickly noted in UK and vice-versa. Recent research has pushed back cut nails in America to around 1762 based on metalurgical finds. Barrel hoop was used and cut either by guillotine or by shears. The same thing happened over here in Australia when a party was sent from Sydney Cove, after the first landing in 1788, to Norfolk Island out in the Pacific to settle the island with some of the hard case convicts. They quickly ran out of shingle nails and cut more from barrel hoop; about 700 a day. So it's not surprising that the Yankees got onto this pretty early as nail shortages were critical from the 1650s or so. Their first machine was in 1790 and pretty crude, but did the job, using 2 levers and 2 foot pedals, by Jacob Perkins in Newburyport, Mass.

America struggled up until 1840 with changes in iron production and mechanisation. Thereafter they flew at great speed until around 1890 when steel wire nails came in to displace the cut nails. Over here in Australia we find the elegant US cut nail in the fine sizes used in softwood linings etc up until 1912. Australian carpenters seemed to like the finish or "fine" versions, easy to handle, to use, and to store. They were no use in Eucalypt woods, and broke easily.

To identify the changes, which were not uniform or linear, (depending on which State you are in), the neatest book is by Jay Edwards & Tom Wells, Historic Lousiana Nails; aids to dating of Old Buildings. This is beautifully illustrated and clear to follow. My only caution is that too much attention is given to the type of heads formed. Nelson's little pamphlet is also very concise and neat, but outdated now by more recent research.

Very roughly, cut shanks with hand formed facet heads are pre 1800. Those with struck heads and side pinched (across the shear of the cut) are pre 1830, though some say these were around in 1838. Neatly formed heads with face pinching, which slightly flattens the shank on the wider axis, will be after 1840. These are the ones we find here in Australia in thousands.
The Brits say they started importing simple US cut nail machines in 1811, but US sources say 1814!! Our MSc. colleague Adam Wilson found spur-head floor brads in a datable house of 1800 in Devon, England. Nelson & Mercer say they appear in the US in 1805-1810, so no one really knows who invented the cut spur-head brad. It may even be the Brits, using the American ideas, in order to develop the rising bed cutter needed to cut 2 nails at once, (because they interlock in pairs). In 1800, the Brits had machines capable of this, and Ryzewski suggests a shearing force of 300+ kilograms was needed, whereas in the US hand driven machines were being turned out by rival groups up until 1820 or so. America lagged in the introduction of steam power, & so relied on water mills up until 1818. The Brits started steam power for blast in 1698 with the Newcomen single acting engine, and in 1776 the canny Scot, James Watt, developed the double acting engine with seperate condenser to suit iron-works, which saved a fortune in fuel costs. The Cornishman, Trevithick, turned this into high pressure steam by 1801. Nail cutting and iron production followed these developments like a road map.

The true genius of the Americans was to challenge the long established pattern of hand made nails, each with its own function, and to develop a general nail shape, easily adaptable to needs and to timber, and CHEAP! That is until steel wire became available at a low price, then loading the machine was no longer a problem, and production costs were less than a quarter of hand loaded strip. Long established firms in Pennsylvania folded up in 6 years or so, or diversified to stay alive.

Ken, I hope that you will pass this on and please note that I will send a copy of my paper to NH and others who want same.

Regards to all the timber fraternity in the UK & USA.

Chris How MSc. C.Eng.

Hi NH et al,

Well you asked for it !!!!

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/06/09 12:52 PM

Originally Posted By: OurBarns1
No problem...

What do they say about old TFers?

"Old TFers never die, they just..."



they just let the chips fall where they may.....
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/06/09 08:09 PM

"fall where they may..."

good one.




Ken:

Chris' post is quite a slew of info and seems to suggest no real certainty in cut nail developments whether it be US or UK dominated. But he did say the Brits began importing US cut nail machines in 1811...only to cast some doubt on the info a bit later.

I'd love to see his latest paper. Please take him up on the offer to send it to those interested.

He mentioned one thing I'm not quite clear on: what are "softwood linings?"...is that like paneling / wainscoting?

And what are your thoughts on my earlier theory that it was natural for nail technology to have developed here in the US b/c of the abundance of lumber, thus the pressing need for nails. I don't have a clue about lumber availability in the UK/Europe at the same time (roughly 1700-1900). Surely it was shipped to England from America.

Anyway Europe does seem to be well versed in no-nails-required methods of building such as masonry, wattle and daub, thatched roofs, etc. Perhaps European builders continued to rely on such technology rather than start nailing up everything.

thanks--

Curious on your thoughts...

Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/06/09 09:21 PM

Originally Posted By: OurBarns1

And what are your thoughts on my earlier theory that it was natural for nail technology to have developed here in the US b/c of the abundance of lumber, thus the pressing need for nails. I don't have a clue about lumber availability in the UK/Europe at the same time (roughly 1700-1900). Surely it was shipped to England from America.


My guess is that the reason so many building and wood processing advances (such as nail technology, circular saws, boring machines, the Square rule, balloon framing) were made in North America in the 19th century is that we had one of the biggest, longest lasting, most widespread building booms ever. We were growing like crazy -- this is where all the building was happening.

Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/09 02:43 AM


Good point Gabel: it was a boom of wood-framed construction.


And living in Maine, us natives always remember that Bangor was the "Lumber Capital of the World" in the 19th century.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/09 10:52 PM

Hi Don & Gabel,

There is nothing new about nails. They were used to nail Jesus to the cross and must have existed a long time before that.

Its wrong to think that timber framing is a "no nails" method of building - its just the opposite. Please don't loose sight of the fact that lath has to be nailed inside and sometimes outside as well to accomodate plaster and the quantity required can run into to tens or even hundreds of thousands depending on the bulding concerned. I find myself perplexed sometimes when I see attempts made by some to make us believe that compound joinery employs wood joint solutions when historicaly the more widely adopted solution has usually been to employ simple butt joints and nails.

I am not as informed about the development of nail making machinery as Chris How but I am familiar with Yankee inventiveness and find no surprise that manufacturing techniques developed rapidly in the USA especially once the break with mother England took place when this would have become a necessity and we all know that necessity is the mother of invention.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/09 01:09 AM

Hi Ken and others

good point Ken and all that I can add is that what may factor into this whole equation was probably the following:

-accessibility to the purchase of nails eventho they may have been available ie no close retail stores
-the wealth of the individual in individual areas ie pioneering\new settlements, no capital to buy with
-trade barriers that interfeered with a purchase
-knowledge of the availability of certain items.

Technology spread in some areas very slowly due to many factors such as the seemingly huge distances to major distribution areas of hardware items. IN this regard I immediately think of the distance of Britain from Upper Canada the main supplier of trade goods with its fledgling colony.

For instance it took approx 60 years for circular blade sawing technology to reach Upper Canada and be put to use.

Trade with the major mills along the Eastern US Sea board eventually was to supplement and supply the mill parts and hardware items needed by areas like Upper Canada and other points further north and west.

Just as a matter of interest my father who undertook to construct a new Barn about 1946 right after the end of ww#2 could not purchase round steel nails due to a shortage of raw material here in Canada, at that time he travelled to New York state and was able to by a quantity of square cut nails in wooden kegs to work with. Also at that time they tried to introduce aluminum nails but I can remember as a young fellow, seeing the bent over nails that just couldn't be driven into the boards.

Thanks all for coming on board I hope everyone enjoys this thread

NH

Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/09 10:11 AM

Eli Whitney (1765-1825) was a great American inventer. He created a system of standardization in machinery and production. The British and French made fun of him and his ideas, saying it denied the craftsman's individuality, which it did. Immigrants to the U.S. were able to purchase land quickly, in a mater of a few years. They could not do this working in the manufactruing industry, they had to work the land. Whitney saw this and in turn developed machinery to make stuff more efficiently, by reducing man hours. His system was called the "American System", he used it first in his firearms factory.

I am reading A History of the American People, and just came across Eli Whitney and thought of this thread and the manufacturing of nails question. The author, I believe, was suggesting American industry was a leading force in manufacturing and capitalism. And leading the way in making nails and many other items.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/09 12:07 AM

Hi Timbeal and others:

Thanks for that bit of history I am sure that we will put together a fascinating story that deals with the manufacturing industry that will come from many different places.

Ken: if you are looking in I am sure that you must have some knowledge of nails in your neck of the woods, by this I mean when square (cut) nails appeared, and then when round nail manufacturing commenced. There appears to be some overlapping of the two types but then that happened with many different hardware items didn't it?.

From your research and your examination of historic structures in Britain what time period would you place on the appearance of the two types over there.

I also wonder sometimes if nail cutting machines were wide spread in Europe and even Asia and appeared roughly at the same time in all locations. We sometimes become very narrow in our idea concerning who invented what and close our minds to the idea that at least some of the world's great minds did not come from North America or Britain but very well came from Japan, China, Italy, Spain, France or some other area that had a great civilization at one time or another.

Any way I hope that more information is forthcoming I will drop in tomorrow night to see some of your replies.

NH

Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/09 02:44 AM

This is a good read on nails;
http://www.pasttools.org/nails.htm
Roland Robbins mentioned in one of the articles was known by my dad who built the little replica cabin that used to be there. He was apparently quite a character and probably worth googling for anyone interested in that project.

This is a link to Eric Sloane's article on colonial nail making;
Sorry for the length of that, I was googling by a nail I remembered mention of in the article. You maybe need to cut and paste into your browser?
http://books.google.com/books?id=NWE3f0IEiMQC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=plancher+nail&source=bl&ots=aMxfkF9vRE&sig=r-RQS1fIEWsOwLRMXAAt7p0cH-I&hl=en&ei=GMW1ScSKM42INeLJgNkK&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA92,M1

This is a nail from a saddlebag cabin I tore down some time ago. I'm thinking they were in panelling but oldtimers has apparently set in. Not positive anymore.


Not sure if or whether it pertains in any way, I live on the edge of the igneous blue ridge where it meets the metamorphic valley and ridge. The old beach road about 300 million years ago. On a restoration on the blue ridge side I was dealing with nails from the first furnace in our area,Point Hope Furnace. The ore was from our side. The furnace shut down when better ore was found on Iron Ridge on the valley and ridge side. The nails are noticeably more brittle from our ore than from the later ore.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/09 01:06 AM

Hi Don


Thanks for coming on board and being part of this thread

That is quite interesting and thanks for the view of what appears to be a very old example of a hand made type of nail

From the photograph it is hard to estimate the actual size of the nail could you maybe come back with that information for everyone that is dropping by lately.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/09 07:55 AM

Hi NH & Don et al,

I have now received Chris How's paper "The American Cut Nail” which was presented last month at Melbourne University, Victoria, Australia and I have been duly authorised by Chris to distribute this further to those who would like a *.pdf copy of same. Please send me a PM to receive a copy.

Chris will make a further presentation on the “Ewbank Nail” to the Construction History Society conference in Cottbus on 21st May 2009 and shortly thereafter this paper will also be available to all discerning timber framers and industrial historians. The Ewbank nail was widely used in England and the empire but apparently not in USA or Canada and so he would be very interested to hear from those people who encounter this type of nail in house construction in those countries.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/14/09 12:40 AM

Hi Ken:

Thanks for getting back to us in reference to "HIstorical Nail Research"--Chris How's paper, you will be receiving a PM from me shortly.

Could you provide a slightly broadened explanation just what the Ewbank Nail was and why it seems to be the focus of such and important presentation.

This information is important for identification if you and Mr Chris How would like feedback it.

Thanks again for taking the time to be with us.

How is your water mill restoration project coming along? I hope fine. Maybe you could post a photo or two from time to time.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/14/09 07:52 AM

Hi Richard,

I have now sent you Chris's first article on "The American cut nail".

The Ewbank nail is similar to the American cut nail and I guess any differences would lie mainly in the development and patenting of the machinery that produced these nails. I cannot yet say too much about this topic since the paper has still to be presented (i.e. published) in May at the Cottbus conference.

I was experimenting yesterday with posting pictures on Windows Live where I have been told by Microsoft that I now have 25GB worth of free picture storage space and so I will shortly be experimenting with making picture posts.

I am somewhat limited as to what I can say on line about live "private client" projects and so hopefully in due course I will keep it in mind to keep you appraised "off line" on major progress.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/09 09:40 PM

NH, I've put a quarter beside the nail above for scale, thanks I wasn't thinking of that.

Ken, That is a great article thanks to you and Chris How.

I had never understood why those old cut nails split so often, I couldn't understand why they would be laminated or folded, they weren't. Page 8 contained the answer. The rolling of the plate caused differential cooling and set up a shear plane within the plate stock. The 8d nail in this shot is on its side and shows the split. The others were some neat old nails I had laid on a shelf in the barn.


The old furnaces here have captured my attention for some time. I don't claim to know much about them, but for those who know less here's what I've gleaned, always interested in more. These produced the pig iron that then went to the puddling furnaces mentioned in the article. We had those forges but I don't know of any remaining. There is a farmer near here who recovered the trip hammer from one out of the creek. That would have hammered the pig into bar stock.

This is what the furnaces did to smelt the ore; Iron appears in nature as an oxide, rust, FeO. If heated in the presence of carbon, the O combines with the C and is driven off through the stack as CO2 and CO. The relatively pure iron, Fe, drops through the floating molten slag that has been collected by the flux and collects in the hearth protected from the O in the air blast by the slag. It collected there until tapped out periodically.

The whistle blew, contractors manned their molds The clay plug was knocked out and the stream of iron flowed down the trench in front of the tapping arch. Or the furnace would simply mold pigs off the trench, or the furnace would mold pigs at the end after the end of the contractors molding. It was reminiscent of piglets nursing off the stream. Our furnaces made pots, pans, stoveplate, the salt kettles used in Saltville and pig iron.


I've crawled in through the tapping arch and am standing on the hearth. This is looking up past the collapsing firebrick in the bosh at the top of the stack from where the furnace was charged with skips of ore, charcoal and limestone. The bosh is the widest area of the furnace where the reaction occured. It is the wear area. The inside is coated with glassy slag. The air belt surrounded the outside of the furnace and admitted air pressurized by the stream outside. The air came in about waist level on each side directed into a horizontal swirl by kneewalls.

Kicking around outside I found what I think is an interesting chunk of clinker that I suspect was part of the charge just above the melt when the interior collapsed. I think we are looking at whitish limestone, yellowish limonite, black charcoal and red rust that was iron forming that has since returned to rust.

I think the Swedish ore mentioned in the article that was prized by the British was what they called "oldgrounds ore" from a town who's name sounded similar to that. I believe it was a much cleaner ore of magnetite or hematite compared to ours.

I googled the Ewbanks nail, I didn't know the name. This is a good article with photos that came up;
http://www.abp.unimelb.edu.au/staff/milesbl/pdf/19th-century-nail-technology.pdf
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/09 04:46 PM

Nice link on the Ewbank nail, Don.


I liked Chris How's paper too. It's a peek into an obscure area of study, just like timber framing. I guess there's really quite a bit about old "nayles" to uncover. This is a great example of using the forum as an exchange. Much thanks to Chris How for allowing us a peek at his work, which must have taken no small effort: over 100 footnotes in a 15-page paper.

What I found interesting was not only did the US invent the cut nail (pg. 12), but in the 1790s, America found it necessary to import nails from Brittan in order to keep up w/ demand (pg. 10). Seems one had the innovation, the other the means to supply.

And like our "Great Chicago Fire" of 1871 that necessitated building innovations (for better or worse), London also burned in 1666 that saw significant softwood exportation to England (pg. 5), all effecting building tech. / methods including nails.

And to have been on hand for the iron vs. steel nail competition in Boston in 1892 (pg. 11)... must have been a moment for sure. The iron nail won the battle, but ultimately lost the war.

Great stuff. Big thanks to Chris How for sharing his work. And thank you Ken for contacting him.

Neat stuff. I hope Northern Hewer is getting closer to his earlier question of when cut nails went out of use first, be it US or UK. Though we are getting insights, it seems like a less than definitive answer eludes us. Seems to be the case in many TF-related topics!!

May the education continue...







Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/17/09 12:08 AM

Hi everyone looking in on this topic:

I can't express my appreciation greatly enough to thank each and everyone of you that have submitted and joined in on this topic.

Over the years of assessing historic structures one of the first things that I would pry out in some obscure spot was a nail and if it proved to be a cut or blacksmith produced example then my glance would wander on, the nail type would be of first importance. This nail and others would be saved and examined at a later time and place.

My glance then would be up to the undisturbed roof boards, to note the saw marks, I would then look at the braces to see if they were sawn or hewn, the size and cross section examination of the vertical timbers, and if any unusual framing characteristics were immediately observable.

You are never too old to learn, and this week I have certainly added to my knowledge of nails mainly through your efforts, and I thank all of you.

I may refer verbally to Chris How's paper if I now am asked for a more knowledgeable reply-- I hope that is OK Ken?--.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/17/09 02:52 PM

Hi NH & Don x 2,

As far as I know the cut nail is still in use today.

Chris how works in cooperation with Miles Lewis at Melbourne university in Australia. Miles is originally from the UK as is Chris.

Its just fine to make reference to Chris's paper - that's the whole point of doing research. What isn't right I suppose is for a person to write about something and make it appear as if they have done the research (and havn't) when really the credit lies elsewhere.

I agree your comments about the value of this forum and its rewarding to discover that sometimes what we, or people that we know, have to say is of interest to others. I sent a copy of Chris's paper to Kenneth Rower (editor of Timber Framing) - didn't even get an acknowledgement, thank you or reply - dead as a door nail !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/17/09 03:42 PM

Ken,

The cut nail is still being manufactured, more as on oddity I suppose. We've discussed Tremont Nail (longtime manufacturer in Massachusetts) here on the forum before. And cut "flooring nails" are readily available here in the US in most lumber centers, but they're not mainstream. I can only speak for this side of the Atlantic.

Tremont states it makes "steel cut nails for restoration projects and remodeling." I think Northern Hewer is seeking when the practice of using cut nails became secondary to wire nails (common nails).

NH, I think you still have questions remaining about time periods, usage of one nail type over the other, correct?
Nice comment by the way: "you're never too old to learn."



And I would think Chris How's paper would fit nicely in an issue of Timber Framing. Not your run of the mill feature.





Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/09 12:44 AM

Hi everyone looking in--

I hope that everyone is learning a little something from this exchange of very important research information especially those that will carry the torch on.

Talking about expanding one's knowledge this forum has to be one of the best available, no library can provide the exchange of ideas both historical and of a more modern nature as well as what you will find exchanged right here on this TFG chat room. A subject or muliple subjects are right here take your pick.

Take this nail thread, for many years I always felt that there was much more to the story than what I was able squeeze out from my research, and due to this medium the story of nails to me has become to a great extent more fully explained but there still are some gaps to fill in there always are.

I will admit it is coming a little late for me to put into general use but from time to time I am asked as a senior knowledgeable person to comment on as I was just lately the dating of nails in a structure that was being dismantled by a private owner.

More than ever now as I gazed on that structure I can honestly say that my reply will be as accurate as just about any one else in this area of expertise, so as I said above you are never too old to learn, and if asked to I will share openly with those that truly are in need of advice.

Thanks to all that have participated and to the TFG for providing the chat medium.

This does not mean I am closing this ongoing chat about nails I certainly am not and I am looking forward to additiional information.

I still do find it a tad bit confusing as I read through Chris's paper but as time goes along I want to study it thoroughly and try and digest all the information it contains, and I ask that others also do the same. A nice discussion of its content would I suspect broaden everyone's knowledge base, and as I sit here contemplating things wouldn't it be nice if its contents could be made available to aspiring historical restoration experts in the field of preservation technology. As well it would be very useful to those that have a close contact with interested public visitors, and supervisors of historic trades persons that need this knowledge base to perform their role properly.

I for one feel an excitement as I visit this medium every night mainly because of everyone's seemingly anxiety to share experiences with just plain interested people or hard core TFG building professionals providing the many varied approaches to this trade called "Timberframing" of yesterday, today and those that will be coming on board tomorrow and the years to follow.

Well enough said for tonight I welcome any additional thoughts on this subject

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/09 03:13 PM

Well said Northern Hewer.

I look forward to checking in with this forum each day too. You're right, there is value and great potential here in the forum. Hopefully it will be seen as a more mainstream way guild members can interact. When forums began, I think many relegated them to "fringe" mediums. Kind of like e-mail in its infancy: it was a neat thing, but people didn't really take it seriously, or instinctively shunned it. Now, e-mail is the preferred way of communication for just about everybody.

I have been enjoying this nail topic, and it seems naturally to lead to other areas of study. One of these is lumber. How's article talks about the early nails (which were blunt) having a hard time piercing hardwood, thus they were more suited to softwood applications. We take it for granted nails come pointed today, but pointing them was obviously a time-consuming or involved process until more modern times. Ironically, softwood is the lion’s share of lumber today and 99% of nails are pointed.

I guess we can say stud framing is considered modern in terms of our outlook on wood frame construction. Balloon framing appears to have been developed in Chicago / Midwest in the early to mid-19th century. I suppose early iron cut nails were used to nail the softwood frames together. Most of what I've uncovered through reading suggests pointed wire nails (what we refer to as "common nails") became mainstream in United States around 1900. Therefore, can we assume older house frames were fashioned with cut nails? Anyone out there who can verify?

I wonder what the situation was like in England and Europe. Did stud framing gain ground there in the 19th century? And what kind of nails were used there around 1900?

I know regional variations abound. Here in New England they say the area held on to timber framing longer than many areas of the United States simply because we love tradition and there was a plentiful supply of good-sized timber.

What was the situation like in your neck of the woods there in Canada, Northern Hewer? Was stud framing a late bloomer? Maybe too, it depends on whether you're talking about houses or barns.
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/09 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: OurBarns1

I guess we can say stud framing is considered modern in terms of our outlook on wood frame construction. Balloon framing appears to have been developed in Chicago / Midwest in the early to mid-19th century. I suppose early iron cut nails were used to nail the softwood frames together. Most of what I've uncovered through reading suggests pointed wire nails (what we refer to as "common nails") became mainstream in United States around 1900. Therefore, can we assume older house frames were fashioned with cut nails? Anyone out there who can verify?



Don,

Houses around here that were built ca 1880-1910 were balloon framed and used cut nails. These dates are a general rule of thumb with the usual exceptions and local variations. My house was built in the late 20's and it used wire nails.
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/09 08:52 PM


The earliest stick built house hereabouts is this one framed in ’46 if memory serves.

http://www.tupelohall.com/TourTupelo.html

A presenter at the Rindge conference had been given the ledger books of the carpenter who framed it. Interestingly he kept the timberesque raising bee in play and framed walls ahead and stood up both the house and barn in one day when the extra manpower was available. All this is known through his highly detailed ledgers.

It stuck in my mind because the same carpenter continued to timberframe barns churches and townhalls and framed the town hall in my home town, after the above house was built.

It is pictured here scroll down to the last picture - http://www.greatnhhomes4sale.com/Litchfield

The next town over from where the stickbuilt house stands. If any of you have read Thoreau’s, A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers you may have seen a photo of the church which shares the same parking lot, though formerly sat across the road and had to be moved when the Merrimack changed its course (it used to be a commonly told ghost story when I was a boy that the empty graveyard was haunted by those whose bodies had been allowed to wash down the river as the riverbank was washed away) I grew up in the woods on Watt’s Brook about a half mile from its confluence with the river, the town encompasses the finest bottom land in the state and still has farms aplenty despite its population expanding multi-thousand fold since my boyhood – 400 souls then 8,000+ now.

All these buildings are I’m sure, plumb full of cut nails, as was the 1821 timberframed Parsonage we restored this past year, everything from teeny 5d’s attaching the clapboards to 5” spikes in the framing holding butt cogs in their housings
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/09 12:08 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Reading over the many remarks in the above posts especially the post concerning the blunt cut nails the following comes to my mind.

I of course received a great deal of my carpentry education from my father who in his own right was a great, and I say this with no reservation "all around good carpenter".

One thing that he taught me along with many other tricks, was the following:

"son if you are under the impression that the nail will split the 2 by 4 or what ever you are nailing just take the nail and
blunt the end by giving it a few whacks on the pointed end with the hammer"

You know it worked every time it would go right through and not split the stud or what ever you were using.

I suspect that the blunt square nails were better to prevent splitting on account of their blunt ends than the pointed modern nails. This is of course if you drove them into the wood with their thickness parallel with the grain.

one of their bad features though was that as the blunt cut nail emerged on the opposite side it usually came through with a good chunk of the surface wood.

Thanks everyone for the remarks in the above posts

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/09 07:50 AM

Hi Will & NH,

I think that Will has made the case rather nicely for making more folks aware that nails are employed aplenty in timber frame construction and thoughts that timber frames only employ wooden pegs is a misguided fallacy.

I am no nail expert but a thought that often passes through my mind is that generally the grain direction of one piece being nailed to another is at 90 degrees e.g. in the case of floor boards being nailed to joists. That being the case the nail has to be able to perform both with and across the grain so what would be the preferred nail orientation when nailing down floor boards ?

Is the primary difference between round pointed and square blunt that the former penetrates through the wood forcing it apart i.e. splitting it whereas the blunt square nail shears the wood effectively making its own "pre drilled" path as per NH's observations?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/09 02:10 PM

Thanks Gabel

Seems your "southern" observations support general New England timelines, which is interesting.
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/09 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Hi everyone tonight:

One thing that he taught me along with many other tricks, was the following:

"son if you are under the impression that the nail will split the 2 by 4 or what ever you are nailing just take the nail and
blunt the end by giving it a few whacks on the pointed end with the hammer"

NH



My Grandfather taught me the same trick. I blunt more nails than not when driving them, it seems.
They cut through rather than split the wood.

Another thought along this line... I have burned hardwood pallets from time to time. When cleaning out the woodstove the nails left behind are often pointless, totally blunt. This must be so they don't split the top boards at the ends.

Nailed by machine, the age old problem of cut nails not piercing hardwood is a moot point.
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/09 02:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Will Truax


All these buildings are I’m sure, plumb full of cut nails, as was the 1821 timberframed Parsonage we restored this past year, everything from teeny 5d’s attaching the clapboards to 5” spikes in the framing holding butt cogs in their housings



Will, what is a "butt cog?"


This 1911 barn here in Maine is an interesting specimen in terms of nails. All the bracing is nailed w/ common wire nails. The braces are not even mortised, just butted to the timbers. There are also nails at prominent joint locations. Bolts / threaded rod, too. This barn is in sad condition, not quite even 100 years old. They built it over a very wet area and the foundation has cracked and heaved considerably.

I have found wire nails in barn joinery here in these 1900-era buildings. It always leaves me a bit disappointed as it heralded the end of tradition in timber framing technique...













Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/09 04:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken Hume


I am no nail expert but a thought that often passes through my mind is that generally the grain direction of one piece being nailed to another is at 90 degrees e.g. in the case of floor boards being nailed to joists. That being the case the nail has to be able to perform both with and across the grain so what would be the preferred nail orientation when nailing down floor boards ?



I would say preferred nail orientation would go with the floor board's grain. The joist is the more substantial timber and could resist cross-grain interference better than the thinner floor board... I'd say orient a cut nail parallel with the floor board.

(There. I think I'm done posting on this topic for the day!!)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/09 12:32 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Don , Ken:

by all means the proper way to orient a cut nail is with the grain of in this case flooring. The same is true no matter what medium that you are nailing to one another usually it is the surface cladding that the nail stays oriented with the grain.

To answer your question about what the term-- "Butt Cog" refers to well here is my explanation.

In Traditional timberframing the "Butt" or the lower end of the rafter that sits on the Upper plate usually stays in its place due to a "cog" fashioned on the end of the rafter. This "cog" has a 90 degree leading edge that sits down in a mortise usually about 2.5" from the exterior edge of the plate. This cog sometimes extends across the full width of the bottom of the rafter but not always.

after the rafter has been set in its place it was usual to use 4 or 5" spikes or a wooden peg to hold it in its positon.

Thanks for coming on board with those pics of the barn, one thing that struck me was the resemblance of the barn to a Schoharie Dutch barn with its main entrance doors in the end of the structure.


NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/09 12:39 AM

Hello all

Just before I leave that barn sure is finished off nicely with return on the eves, and the lights over the main doors. It almost has the look of the exterior of a large home.

NH
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/09 01:48 AM


Cut nails do sever the grain nicely as they punch their way through the wood, and are much less likely to split the wood, far superior to wire nails IMO.

It is however, a little recognized aspect of the diamond point on wire nails that there is a direction to place them. The diamond is asymmetrical and there are cut edges, they are though less recognizable than they were in years past and not as sharp, and not recognizable without a visual inspection necessarily longer than most would give them even if they knew they were there.

I thought the term butt cog was in more common usage than it apparently is. It is essentially the end of a drop in joist or purlin fully housed width wise though often the drop in is reduced in height with a relief cut.

See the Wiki - http://tfwiki.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Encyclopedia#B

Don, neglect aside, that barn was always better from without than within.

Ken, I do see nailed joinery with some frequency, typically but not always limited to simple butt cogs.
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/09 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Hello all

Just before I leave that barn sure is finished off nicely with return on the eves, and the lights over the main doors. It almost has the look of the exterior of a large home.

NH



Here in my neck of the woods large barns from this era are typically adorned w/ such trim work. It's one way I can date a building just by driving by. Seems it's always 1880-1910 range...

Victorian influences finally made it to farm architecture. A quote from an old publication speaks to this:

"[i]Among the many and recent improvements in farming matters, none is more conspicuous than the improvement in the construction of barns. The gables, doors and windows of the barn are frequently ornamented with pediments; and the eaves, or cornices with wide, handsome moldings."[/i]

--New England Farmer, 1855


I like that barn too... too bad it's in such disrepair. the roof leaks badly. Weeds grow on the wet floor... but the owner loves it and remembers his family farming there. His father had it built in 1911 and he really wants to restore it. There are numerous bottle jacks in place as temporary fixes. But it will take many thousands of dollars. I think it's too late for this one, sadly. He's a school teacher... I had to wonder if it made it through this past winter, given the heavy snows we had. But she still stands. I went by a couple weeks ago.

Nice subject to photograph. Kind of gothic all run down like it is.



Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/09 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Will Truax

Cut nails do sever the grain nicely as they punch their way through the wood, and are much less likely to split the wood, far superior to wire nails IMO.



I often wish they sold pre-blunted wire nails.

thanks for the clarification on Butt Cog
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/09 12:57 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Here I go again but there was an article in the local newspaper that pertains to a specific type of roof structure that is associated with one of the oldest Anglican Churches in Upper Canada-

This church now stands at Riverside Heights just a short distance from where I live near Morrisburg Ontario Canada, and was removed from its original location at the time of the St. Lawrence Seaway Cconstruction in the late 50's. It was one of only 2 churches that was relocated at that time stone by stone and moved to a higher location.

So I am throwing this term out to everyone, maybe we can put it in the TFG glossary if it warrants storing after we have kicked it around a while.

The term is a "Lynchgate Roof"

It is English in origin but it does have a special meaning.

This type of roof structure was built about 1903 by Robert M. Cox of Liverpool England for anyone that is interested in the builder's name.

Could anyone describe just what a "Lynchgate Roof" is and why such a name?

NH
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/09 01:35 AM


Wow Richard, 100,000 hits on your thread, a fantastic first for the forum.

Like I explained in my last post on your thread, I came up in a town named Litchfield, it shares the same rootword derivation as the roof you're asking after. Essentially I climbed up out of a boneyard...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lichgate

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/26372
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/09 01:50 AM

Yes, all hail: 100,000 hits!!

AP newswire: Historic forum reaches historic 100,000 hit marker...obscure thread starter says he's as shocked as anybody. "I still have many more posts to go," the Canadian carpenter announced, boldly...


Bravo Northern Hewer! You should get a plaque (hand hewn, of course) to mark this historic achievement.

As to your "Lynchgate" question, I had a friend w/ the last name of Lynch. The family was very Irish. Perhaps this word is Irish rather than English, per se?


[And I just passed my 300th post!]
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/09 09:12 AM

Hi Richard,

The name has most likely has been corrupted just a little. The word is Lytchgate and this is the small covered structure present at the entrance to most church grounds. Its like a little open timber framed building but don't confuse this with a church porch which is attached to the church.

The word Lytch means "corpse" and thus this gated structure was used to obviate the need for a vicar to allow the body of a plague victim or other excummunicado individuals being brought onto hallowed ground for a burial blessing.

A village close to where I live in North Hampshire is called Lytchpit and it doesn't take too much imagination to figure out that this is where all of the thousands of plague victims were unceremoniously damped into a huge open grave with some shovels of lime then being thrown over the lytch to help the body quickly break down. The other close equivalent as mentioned by Will is Litchfield and this means the same thing only maybe the Lytches weren't buried or cast into a pit.

Nice topic that you have chosen for your 100K post !

I will try and get a picture and post this for your delectation.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/09 01:25 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Ken: you hit the nail right on the head, I must confess that I misspelled the name the article in the paper used "Lych" gate not the way I spelled it. It is amusing because the plaque that was mounted on the gateway to that Anglian church spells it in this way, your spelling seems to need a "t", but what ever is right I expect yours is the right spelling though.

the article does go on to say that other spellings are "lychgate", "lichgate", "lycugate" or "lychgate"

I stopped and examined it a couple of days ago up close, to see what damage had been done to it due to the frost tipping the stone pollars that supported it last winter. What I found was that one of the supporting timbers had split where it sat in a notched housing on the top of the stone pillar so the whole unit had to be lifted off for safety reasons and moved to a location behind the church for the time being.

For 106 years of age the condition of the lytchgate roof seemed to be exceptionally good but the stone pier has tipped badly.

Their estimate of repair according to the news article was $225,000 which seems a bit high in my books.

I think that the pier could be excavated around its base and with some manouevering with cables could be straigtened up and below the frost line form and pour supporting concrete, then just repair the timber and replace it back in its original position, what do you all think?

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/09 01:26 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Ken: you hit the nail right on the head, I must confess that I misspelled the name the article in the paper used "Lych" gate not the way I spelled it. It is amusing because the plaque that was mounted on the gateway to that Anglian church spells it in this way, your spelling seems to need a "t", but what ever is right I expect yours is the right spelling though.

the article does go on to say that other spellings are "lychgate", "lichgate", "lycugate" or "lychgate"

I stopped and examined it a couple of days ago up close, to see what damage had been done to it due to the frost tipping the stone pollars that supported it last winter. What I found was that one of the supporting timbers had split where it sat in a notched housing on the top of the stone pillar so the whole unit had to be lifted off for safety reasons and moved to a location behind the church for the time being.

For 106 years of age the condition of the lytchgate roof seemed to be exceptionally good but the stone pier has tipped badly.

Their estimate of repair according to the news article was $225,000 which seems a bit high in my books.

I think that the pier could be excavated around its base and with some manouevering with cables could be straigtened up and below the frost line form and pour supporting concrete, then just repair the timber and replace it back in its original position, what do you all think?

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/09 09:36 AM

Hi Richard,

Now it my turn to apologise - I just checked the Oxford Dictionary and find that there is no "t" in lychgate though it is pronounced as if there was one present.

A digi pic of this upset would be good. I think that you could probably build a couple of these for the sum mentioned.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/09 01:56 AM

Hi Ken and others looking in:

sorry I don't have any pics of this problem presently but I agree the price seems to be a bit out of line,

I think that we have the correct spelling now maybe someone who knows how to file it should put it in the TFG Glossary for those thatmay want to refer to it.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/30/09 12:25 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Before I move away from this subject I would like to ask Don in his post above dealing with the "AP wire" that dealt with the 100,000th post. I have tried to find it but I have been unsuccessful, I would like to read the article. Is there anyway you can direct me to the article, I would sure apreciate it.

Also thanks for the nice remarks dealing with that milestone, it sure wasn't all my doing without you guys coming on board nothing would have happened --period.

I am glad that you all enjoyed the posts ,and joined in from time to time, my main object was that everyone learns alittle i really didn't expect such a loyal group.

As I look back just a few years-- helping to hosting the TTRAG when they met here in Morrisburg was real treat, right now with the economy faltering it sure is straining people's resources from what i can make out from some of your comments, and will probably hurt attendance at some of the future meetings.

Your new president is making good progress at least in my opinion I hope that he can pull off some of the things that he is hoping to do. I guess we have no choice but wait and see.

This is alittle off topic but you guys should be getting used to me by now, my son is restoring a home he owns that has a turn of the century tin ceiling in it, some sections need repair, is there anyone out there that knows of a supplier?

thanks in advance

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/30/09 01:43 AM

Hi Richard,

My little "AP neswire" line was a parody, a joke. It was all meant in good taste.

I write for some local papers and kind of "went with it" here on hearing the news of the forum's 100,000th. I just fell into my writing persona and acted like your 100,000th viewing was a front-page thing.

It was just meant for our core of regulars to get a kick out of, etc. I didn't post it anywhere else. (I probably should have said it was a joke... gottcha!)


Anyway, here's to the 200,000th!!


(I still think you've earned that hand hewn plaque, however!!)


best--
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/30/09 06:26 PM

NH:
I thought I posted a link a while ago about where you can find "tin ceiling" reproduction panels; but that could have been on another forum.

There are companies out there that make them, and sell them fairly reasonable, I believe.

You should be able to find one, with a google search....
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/30/09 06:32 PM

Yes, it was on another forum, but I found the link I was looking for.
Here it is:
http://www.americantinceilings.com/patterns.html?gclid=CLDptbqCtZgCFQsMGgod62pHTA

And here is a second one:

http://www.thetinman.com/default.htm
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/01/09 01:18 AM

Hello tonight

To Don and Jim

Thanks for the clarification Don on the "AP Wire" You had me fooled for sure, I always enjoy a little fooling around it breaks the monotony

And Jim thanks for the leads on the tin ceiling repro Companies I will pass it along to my son.

I haven't been able to post any pictures lately from my album in Photobucet I really don't know what is happening but I am trying to figure it out.

Would anyone like to do alittle reminising on The Seaway\power project development shared between the USA and Canada on the St Lawrence river it happened here in the early 60's.

For starters they moved over 500 homes using two house movers, one that could lift 100 tons and one that could lift 200 tons, the tires were 10 feet in height, and 3 feet across their faces.

to be cont'd

NH

Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/01/09 12:33 PM

I'd like to see pictures of that....
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/01/09 01:53 PM

I've seen some of Richard's pictures of that, and they're really cool. Hope you can post them. CB.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/03/09 12:55 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Hi Jim and Daiku thanks for coming on board and also those nice remarks, sorry I can't post anything presently so guess I will just have to talk for the time being.

It was exciting times around here then, I was just a teen ager lots of work, construction went 24 hrs a day non stop, for about 4 years, crushing stone, pouring concrete, moving houses, cutting right of ways, there was a new railway line built, a new 4 lane highway, as well a scenic 2 lane highway just to name a few.

All the foundations for the moved homes were readied, one of the major tasks facing the engineering dept. was the construction of a coffer dam to divert the St. Lawrence river and dry up the river bed to allow the construction of the Hydro generation station.

Eventually it created a lake 21 miles long, and took the complete capacity input of the St Lawrence river flowing into it 4 days to fill to its highest point.


Hope you enjoy this little trip down memory lane
NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/03/09 11:42 PM

Hi everyone tonight:

Cont'd from last night---


It was at this time that the historic homes and outbuildings that are contained at Upper Canada Village were rescued from the inundation and moved to their new locations.

There were many more that were just tore down and in some cases burned to clear the land. As well many very old trees some 200 years or more were cut down, as well as old apple orchards.

It seems a shame that in the name of progress this sort of thing comes to pass, I should have said "in the name of power production" to have been truthfull, well I have to go now

NH



Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/09 05:59 PM

Hello everyone tonight:

Just to correct my post above the tree that I said was 200 years old, when I reviewed my notes the entry should have read as follows-- "it was estimated to be 500 years old"-- this tree stood in Moulinette one of the small towns that was inundated due to the flooding. A slice of this tree was preserved at UCV and it was 6 feet across the section.

There were 22 graveyards affected most of the remains were left except those that the families wished removed, the stones were all removed and the site was cemented over to contain everything.

22 churches were situated in the way of the project only 2 churches were removed to higher ground.

5 villages were erased from the map of Ontario, 2 other town lost most or a greater portion of their locality.

The new rail line was 40 miles long, and the new scenic road was 30 miles in length.

Some interesting information on the St. Lawrence river was noted as follows:

There was a drop of 92 feet from Lake Ontario to Cornwall about 80 feet was contained in the 21 miles directly in front of the new power house at Cornwall

The river itself is considered to be one of the most dependable rivers in the world and by this I mean the following: its maximum flow is only twice its minimum, by comparison its close neighbour the Ottawa river is 12 times.

The land expropriated to make way for the flooding was 225 farms, most of which had been in the same family names since the 1784 settlement, 22000 acres of land on the Canadian side, and 18000 acres on th US side. 500 summer cottages, 3,600 acres of trees from forests to fruit farms, fences, and yards

The project started in August of 1954 and the head pond flooding started on July 1 1958, power generation began immediately there were 32 huge generators, producing 1, 880,000 kilowats of power, each turbine producing approx 75,000 horsepower

I hope that I am not boring you TFer's but this is just I thought a nice bit of forgotten history something like those that fought and lost their lives in the many wars of our world~!


According to the many scuba divers that probe the depths of the St Lawrence it is an erie spectacle to see the streets and house basements still preserved underwater at those ghostly locations.

Hope you you enjoy this slice of history

NH



Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/09 07:15 PM

When I was a young boy in the 60's my family vacationed up there and had a tour of one of the power plants.
And we watched some ships go through the locks.....
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/09 07:23 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Hello everyone tonight:

Hope you you enjoy this slice of history

NH




NH:

I'm enjoying this immensely as history is one of my favorite subjects.

Here in Maine, the town of Flagstaff was lost to a hydroelectric project about the same time as your account. Flagstaff was legally dis-incorporated in 1950. The Dead River (aptly named as far as Flagstaff folks were concerned) was dammed.

These two videos tell the story:

http://www.windowsonmaine.org/view.aspx?objectId=9-30&currentfile=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ATIVa7WbHs


I'd like to see some pics/video of the St. Lawrence project if you can manage.

I guess the ultimate example of this kind of displacement would be the Three Gorges Dam on the Yangtze in China.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/05/09 12:04 AM

Hi everyone again tonight:

Well sorry to say I can't post right now but if I can get things up and running again in the near future I will post some.

Hi Don--you are like me I really enjoy everything about woodworking especially the old style, but you know I really enjoy a cut out of the history books especially in my leisure time.

Also your inputon the damming of the river at Flagstaff, Maine. I really didn't realize that there was a town named flagstaff in maine I thought it was in Arizona. I really sounds like tose folks went through the same agony that the folks around here did about the same time maybe a bit earlier.

Just a few more items from my file on the seaway project:

The Robert Saunders Powerhouse in 3,300 feet long and 162 feet high.

The dam that holds back the 21 mile head pond with its axis curved upstream is 2,250 feet long and 124 feet wide

There was a loss of 25 canadian's lives and 17 americans during the construction phase

Two massive locks raise and lower ocean going vessels one lifts and lowers 45 feet, and the other 38 feet.

The seaway took 50 years of planning between the US and candian governments. Talks started in 1913 and then the study began.

hope you enjoy

NH

Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/05/09 09:51 PM

NH:

History, especially local history, is always interesting to me.

I always liked carpentry ever since I could remember, but history is something I've warmed to in the last decade or so. It helps round out my identity: in order to know who we are, we must know where (and what) we came from.

And Flagstaff lives on somewhat here in Maine. That dammed section of the Dead River was named Flagstaff Lake. Though nothing like the St. Lawrence, it's a good chunk of water: about 22,000 acres.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/06/09 01:03 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well I think the majority of visitors have enjoyed this trip down memory lane eventhough it really strays from timberframing or hewing, I will say though that many of the structures razed by this so called progress for power production were the very earliest hand crafted structures that were built by the early settlers, thank god that someone had the foresight to rescue some examples at UCV.

tonight I will give the last bit of info on this massive seaway venture I hope that you forgive me for chatting on so but I have really enjoyed it.

Total excavation 95 million cu yds
concrete used 3.2 million cu yds
sand and stone 5.2 million cu yds

headpond capacity 100 sq
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/06/09 01:12 AM

sorry I hit the submit button-----------


headpond capacity-- 100 sq miles contains approx 23 billion cubic ft of water

Cost-----600 million dollars!!

note:

I still have feelings of sadness after nearly 50 years for those that had their holdings ripped away from them by expropriation eventho everyone for many years were good citizens, paid their taxes, and get this "thought they owned their land", no one really owns their land-- RIGHT--

until another night and another topic


NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/09 12:25 AM

Hi Derek and others looking in:

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, I just threw this topic in for the enjoyment of those that like history.

You Know There are alot of wonderful people in the world and I feel humbled to have had the opportunity to talk and visit with many thousands of them. I always studied my history and researched my subjects as well as I could so that I could consider my responses as accurate as possible.

Talking with all of you here on this forum , I realize many are just passing by. It reminds me of days gone now, as I worked and paused to visit with those that took the time to stop, and as I glanced up from time to time I would see many just glance my way and then pass on, they would be pointing towards me and instructing their children probably putting in their version of what they are seeing.

I just want to say right now it would be nice to talk to everyone of you, but I know that is not possible, I hope that you look back through my posts and posts of others over the last 7 or 8 months and really enjoy the trip I have really had a wonderful time

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/09 03:41 PM

Likewise, NH

May the journey continue...
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/11/09 12:51 AM

Hi everyone tonight

you know as I look and listen to everyone's responses and see the wonderful structures that you all are building from timbers I wonder sometimes how you please the customers, I don't think that I would like to go there, I will leave that up to you guys so carry on and I will really enjoy seeing the finished
product(s)

I am used to reconstructing period structures with all their little imperfections, that is what gives the old buildings their magical looks--

somehow I think that the modern clients expect too much from you guys!!--wood will shrink,check, split,twist, have funny little stains (in the wrong spots) is there anyting else that I have missed--please jump in and let us know what other weird properties that wood has

Anyway happy Easter to everyone- that is if you celebrate Easter if not happy whatever--I am just an old TFER and a Canadian one at that, or should I say a North American one at that since my father in his great wisdom about 90 years ago decided to go to San Francisco to help rebuild that great city after the earth quake at that time.

He met my mother and brought her all the way back to Morrisburg. She will soon celebrate her 97th, I asked her a while ago "mother what did you think of Dundas county when you arrived here" (about 1930).

Her reply was "it sure was pretty rough but I would have followed your father to the ends of the earth"


With that thought I will retire for the night

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/11/09 11:06 AM

Hi Richard, I am not sure I would call them imperfections, for that suggest something is incorrect or wrong and there for should be corrected and removed form the process, in effect, changing the product of that particular individual. These "imperfections" cannot be added artificially, they appear fake when done. That slip of the axe, as an example, landing in the wrong place; how many of these should we strategically place and where, most likely if this is tried there will be to many and in the wrong places. This, the axe mark, can only happen if the original intent of the axe is true to its cause. Another "oops" that can happen is the miscut piece and the fix needed to correct the process so it can continue to flow. I have visited numerous old structures and pondered what caused this or that to happen, it is always reassuring when I come across such mishaps, for they leave me smiling and knowing I am on the right path, human nature has not changed and dyslexia lives on. A most appropriate topic for Easter and the sins of man. In the end maybe they are imperfections.

Tim
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/11/09 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Hi everyone tonight

I am used to reconstructing period structures with all their little imperfections, that is what gives the old buildings their magical looks--

somehow I think that the modern clients expect too much from you guys!!--wood will shrink,check, split,twist, have funny little stains (in the wrong spots) is there anyting else that I have missed--please jump in and let us know what other weird properties that wood has


NH


As Tim suggests, perhaps "imperfections" doesn't quite define it… Idiosyncrasies, signatures, details, traits, etc. might be more apt.

Wood's flammability is only an imperfection in the eyes of the fire chief and insurance man. But in the woodstove, flammability is very much appreciated. Perfection is an honorable goal, but it's important to preserve the idiosyncrasies, signatures, details and traits of wood and those who work it.

Wood is a wonderful medium. The colors are like moods; the grain patterns become signatures; knots are like fingerprints: you could look at a thousand and not find its twin.

Other weird properties are sounds, smells—even dust, I suppose. A piece of hardwood has a distinct resonance when dropped on the shop's cement floor. Nailing softwood two-by lumber makes its own reverberation. Freshly-cut birch smells like peppermint; oak is almost ammonia-like; pine--well, that makes for a nice scented pillow customers like.

And those "magical looks." I would like to see some of those period structures with all their little "imperfections" you appreciate and speak off, NH... Like Tim said, a slip of the axe is its own beautiful signature.

I think wood is like language in a way. Different languages help define cultures, help record their idiosyncrasies. I'm glad there are different species of wood to choose from. The world would be a dull place if we all spoke the same tongue.


Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/12/09 12:40 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Well--good responses, I know now that my term "imperfections" doesn't quite cut it in the big picture, I suppose in my small world "imperfections" was a big part of my life.

For example in the selection of 6 by 12 white oak timbers that would make up the barrel wheel of our water powered saw mill during its reconstruction, I did in fact try and select timber without imperfections, such as ingrown bark, cross grain, knots, rot, worm holes,--I call these imperfections that I personally would not consider suitable for this expensive reconstruction.

AS I walked the pine bushes looking for trees that would fall in the "OK" category for purchasing I would look again for imperfections that were not suitable such as crook, black knots, woodpecker holes,--realizing full well that trees have limbs like meat has bones.

Thanks again for the broader terminology I am sure those looking in will scratch their heads alittle trying to figure out just what exactly we are saying, but to summ it all up I believe that for sure we want wood to retain its natural characteristics to a certain degree, I am with you a 100%, and for sure that gnarled old tree certainly has really tough fibres in it, and when you cut it and work up the resulting wood maybe apply alittle stain it will look far better than that plain old straight grained board (that we pay lots for)-- now I can just hear the sound of someone muttering--"now that is character"---

A good night to everyone

Hope you enjoy this chatter and thanks for all your comments--

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/12/09 01:38 AM

Thank you Richard, I hope all is well.

Derek, I just heard OSHA has a fix for splinters, gloves, you could get a substantial fine.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 12:53 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well sorry for having been away so long but I had to attend to some business.

Talking about wood in the last post and wanting to retain its characteristics, I began to think about broadaxe handles and the types of wood that I use to manufacture them.

I personally lean towards wild cherry as my first choice, it has the greatest patina after you use it for a bit of time. The sweat from your hands impart a glow to the surface of the wood that gives it a distinctive look and feel, like the rubbed surface of an historical piece of furniture.

I was just wondering if any of you woodworkers that stop by might have any preferences as far as types of wood to use, and maybe a reason to go along with the choice.

I also use a glass finish once I have attained the proper shape and offset. Is there any secrets you would like to share here with everyone, please feel free to jump in.

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 01:59 AM


I like handle patina, too: has a certain authenticity you can't rush.

Cherry is one of my favorite woods for woodworking (for furniture), but I'm surprized to hear you like it for an axe handle. Cherry is certainly a smooth wood, good on the hands...

I've held some beautiful canoe paddles made of cherry. They look great, but it's not the most decay-resistant stuff, so I would not expect them to last, nor would i expect them to fare well in a stretch of rapids jamming off rocks.

Wild cherry in your area is probably a bit different that the Appalachian stuff I've worked with (and love). I like to finish cherry w/ tung or linseed oil thinned w/ a bit of mineral spirits so it can penetrate deeply.

I've seen some wild cherry in Maine where I live. It doesn't get very big and has a "crooked" nature. Is that why you like it for broad axe handles?
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 02:48 AM

Heartwood cherry is actually on the high end of the rot resistant range. Certainly not like black locust, however. I've always used ash for tool handles, straight grain, rives easily. I've got to make a broad axe handle, maybe I'll look into cherry, it certainly has a crooked growth habit.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 09:27 AM

Hi NH et all,

A wood that is rarely mentioned on this forum is Holly. This was oft times used by blacksmiths to rehandle their hammers because it produced a wonderfully smooth surface which is further polished up by the hand when used at the forge.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 10:18 AM

Holly, Holly is a magical wood, even our entertainment derives from Hollywood, can I say "it has deep roots". It does not grow in my neck of the woods.

I do have a couple of handles made from black cherry, on my slick and a small hewing axe. The axe split clean off one day and my knot tying brother took it home and with a bit of glue and some string made it serviceable once more, needless to say I don't use it for heavy wood removal, but it still works.

Tim
Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 11:13 AM

Dogwood is another good one, happens to be in full bloom here right now. NH you said "glass finish"... scraped with a broken piece of glass?
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 02:14 PM

Yes, more on the "glass finish" please.
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/09 03:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Dave Shepard
I've got to make a broad axe handle, maybe I'll look into cherry, it certainly has a crooked growth habit.


Speaking of handles, crooked handles, has anyone ever made a laminated broadaxe handle?

Brings me back to canoe paddles. "Bent shaft" paddles are popular w/ modern canoeists and are often laminated (glued-up) on a form.

The paddle shape seems well suited to some unique broadaxe handle possibilities...







Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/01/09 12:15 AM

Yes, the racing days, 'tis the season and the water is cold and high.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/02/09 12:27 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well those were wonderful responses, and I certainly increased my knowledge about types of wood that grow in other regions and other parts of the world, especially Holly, it doesn't grow here but it sure sounds like a very interesting wood type for handles.

One thing that I have certainly learned over the years is that handles , buildings of all types, etc. were usually built/constructed with what type of wood grew in that particular region, and some regions were blessed with better varieties than others.

I also use black walnut for tool handles, choosing naturally bent limbs for the offset broadaxe handles. I have a favorite tree that once in a while gets trimmed up a bit.

White ash is also a great wood, and for broadaxe handles you have to select a naturally bent section like a tree that has grew up out of the side of a deep ditch, or by some stroke of nature grew in an unatural fashion such as being bent like the trees were during the last ice storm here.

Dogwood is one type of wood that I have no idea what its possibilies would be but thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Yes the glass finish I put on my handles is created with a broken piece of glass, it does a wonderful job of applying a final finish. I do show it being applied in my broadaxe handle carving video.

Well thanks for coming on line everyone, maybe we will get additional suggestions from other parts of the USA or abroad.

NH



Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/03/09 03:39 PM

Hi Richard,
I hope not to drag us afield but I thought I'd share a couple of pictures of Dogwood and a story that goes along with it.
This is one of our multi-stemmed ones in the front yard, they tend to be forest edge trees, this is old overgrown pasture, you can see several others in the background. Even single stemmed ones are typically not straight.

This is the blossom


The story is that this tree was used for the cross. The tree blooms around Easter and the blossom is shaped like the cross and shows the scars of the nails on the tips of the petal to remind us. The story goes on to say that this was once a tall stately tree that was banished to always be a gnarled small thing afterwards so that it could never be used in that way again. I was told not to cut one unneccesarily. It is not my intention to sermonize but it does make a nice story and I like the lore that accompanies different trees.

The wood itself is typically white, sometimes dries with a pink cast that I believe is an enzyme reaction although there is a reddish cast to the heartwood which it often does not contain much or any of. It is dense and quite strong, imparts no flavors and was used for tools, small parts and cooking implements.
This is the tech sheet, it looks like the last 3 sentences under "the tree" are a mix up but the rest is accurate.
http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/HardwoodNA/htmlDocs/cornus.html

If you look at the mechanical properties and have a feel for them, this is a tough,stiff,hard,dense wood

Many of ours are succumbing to anthracnose, it burns well and I try to lay up a few good looking chunks. There is much loss in drying so it may take a few pieces in the woodstove before you get a keeper. It self polishes like beech and is a nice handle wood, turns well also.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/04/09 01:02 AM

Hi Don

Thanks for the wonderful response and you certianly did not lead us astray by no stretch of the imagination.

I believe we all are beginning to become a little bit wiser when it comes to selecting a type of wood strong enough to be used for an offset broadaxe handle.

I believe that another of the main properties that is required is the natural bend at the point where the handle curves into the head of the axe. Without this natural strength in the grain of the wood it will not stand up to the forces directed to the handle when it is brought into hard blows during the hewing sequence, especially when trying to cut through a knot in the log.

It would be nice to hear from someone who has had the privilege to exchange information on handle carving say from the tropical regions.

I know some of the hardest wood is mined such as lignum vitae (used for turbine bearings), and I am sure that there are some surprises when it comes to handle carving as well.

Around my region some of the dense hardwoods such as ironwood just does not seem to have been used eventhough it is very tough and durable.

White elm moves around too much as the moisture conditions change, and white oak does not finish well and stays too abraisive on the surface

White ash is a good choice, as well hickory is another.

As I close for tonight please come on board with other suggestions for everyone to ponder and maybe expand their knowledge base on this interesting topic.

I still like the first observation "holly" from Ken in England maybe he has a few more examples up his sleeve to share with everyone.

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/04/09 09:16 PM

That was a nice post on dogwood.

I enjoy learning from Don P about different woods. It's clear he knows his medium...The Dogwood tale is a great example of folklore, which is one of my literary interests (but folklore really comes from an oral tradition rather than a written one; like poetry and song).

I'm curious to hear opinions on a laminated version of a broadaxe handle. Maybe it would be more work than a one-piece traditional design: the sawing of strips, making a form, etc. But it might produce a stronger product and a unique one at that.

I have made some canoe paddles, straight ones, w/ laminated shafts. Mahogany and spruce made for a neat (and strong)combination...people always comment on it (I can post some pictures later).

But for a broadaxe, envision alternating srips of ash and some tropical hardwood like NH mentioned... 1/4 ~ 3/8" strips glued up around a form would produce a nice handle, I'd think. A stronger one, too. Solid wood is prone to weak spots and fracture lines. A lamination is usually stronger as it is a combination of grain working together. Plus, a lamination resolves drying and checking concerns that are inherent when harvesting solid material for handles.

Curious to hear some thoughts.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/05/09 10:22 AM

Don, I would favor a simple naturally curved handle. The heart of the matter, for me, rests in the simplicity of constructing a single piece handle. As mentioned earlier, I have one which broke and was repaired, it was constructed from straighter grain and is fragile, I did not take a little more time to find the right piece of wood. I am now stocking, meaning, looking for and saving handle wood. A laminated handle verges on mass production, something I want to stay away from, next thing you know they are available to the masses and the mass will not know the roots from which the handle arose. To learn how to use a tool, one should make the handle as the first steps, just as a philosophy.

Historically, how many laminated handles were made?

Tim
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/05/09 12:41 PM

There was an article in the Timber Framing magazine a while ago about making a laminated offset handle. I don't know the issue number but it was interesting to see.
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/05/09 02:55 PM


Hey Tim & Jim:

Thanks for your comments. I see your point about tradition, Tim. I posses the same philosophy on many levels. I'm guessing laminated handles were not made way back when because of adhesive technology. Wood was manipulated historically, however (steam bending, etc).

If anyone knows that particular TF issue Jim refers to, I'd be interested to see the article.

Here's a few pics of my homemade laminated canoe paddles, the shafts of which I've found are considerably stronger than solid varieties-- see the repaired solid shaft paddle on the right.

The one on the left is mahogany and spruce. The other is maple, cherry and spruce, w/ a walnut tip...















Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/05/09 04:07 PM


I’m with Tim, even though I know and have split off juggles with a hewer who lams up his own handles and know them to have served him well…

I’ve had equally long service with solid handles and natural curves. And my style of lefthanded hewing, log to my left, left hand forward, requires an especially heavy and immediate curve. My power / lifting / control hand is my forward hand, my forward hand, is to the log, not the fingers of my opposite hand, so my southpaw requires a couple inches of clearance, just south of the poll.

Service life on any handle, but especially ax handles hinges on how well they are hung more than any other factor. An extra fifteen at the shaving horse fitting it just so, has proved to be what adds years to a handles service for me.

But then, I’ve never found the logic in sawing or laminating curves into wood, it grows crooked everyday !

Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/06/09 12:51 AM

Nice to have you back on the forum, Will.

Wood grows crooked everyday. Now if it would only grow to the shape we need...

Training a small tree or a branch to grow a certain way might facilitate a nice handle.

I'd like to try my hand at making both solid and laminated handles one day.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/09 01:31 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Well this is a rather interesting thread one that I certainly am enjoying immensely all the great responses.

Talking about growing curves for specific purposed, it is an old technology, for instance, trees for canes were nurtured from their infancy in different forms by just tying them when they were young and tender shoots.

I just have to throw this in here as I read all your posts, the old people would just take a piece of straight grained green wood alittle heavier than what would be required and secure it in some strong wood cleavage such as the rung of a ladder in the barn floor, with rope pull it and secure with stout rope, so that it had the bend in the proper place and leave it until well cured

This is a time consuming method but produces a good straight grained bent offset wood blank for the subsequent reduction into a handle or other object needed. I might also add that you really need green wood for this type of bending not kiln dried.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/09 01:33 AM

Hi again tonight

Just before I leave I wonder if any of you guys out there are familiar with the offset reversible broadaxe handle?

Any comments

NH
Posted By: Joel McCarty

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/09 01:58 PM

Free-Range, Cordless, Y2K Compliant? Do you have picture or a drawing?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/08/09 01:21 AM

hello again everyone tonight:

Hi Joel nice to have our administrator visit our thread but I cannot understand the connection of what you are asking for in relation to what we are chatting about, so unless I get a little bit more info I cannot respond unfortunately

Getting back to the various comments above I am quite interested in Will's remark's about his style of left handed hewing. Part of it I am comfortable with like "left hand forward"--this is normal practice--but then--"log to my left"--this last part I am not familiar with. Most left handed hewers that I have seen or been around work as follows--"left hand forward, and log to the right"--

I realize that everyone works in different ways, but this is certainly an unusual style and one that I have never seen.

Over the years of pairing up hewers on large timbers during the hewing process a right hand hewer and a left hand hewer could work facing one another on the same side of the log simply because of the opposite way they stand, working from the ends of the log towards the centre point.

Many large hewn timber display the remaining telltale bites of the scoring axes as they were driven into the finished surfaces from different angles usually by a right and left handed hewer working on the same log and on the same surface.

I am sure that you do work as you describe Will and I assume that you are adaptable to swinging an axe right or left handed easily, as many old timers could as the situation warranted.

I wonder for the sake of everyone looking in on this thread if you could explain a little further on your unusual style of hewing, and maybe a picture or two.

Thanks again this is interesting information and I (we) are waiting for your reply

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/08/09 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Joel McCarty
Free-Range, Cordless, Y2K Compliant?


I would say Joel is saying axe handles are found in the outdoors and need a little work as any chicken does, cordless means just that, no cord to chop off, and the axe is Y2K compliant, no computer to malfunction, unless the operator goes nuts, then you could make a movie out of it.

There is many ways to skin a cat, or hew a log.

Tim
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/08/09 09:09 PM

I have some video footage of Will hewing as he describes while working with us a couple years back. Perhaps he wouldn't mind if I made it available for viewing?

I can affirm that he hews as he describes. And it is quite odd-looking until you get used to it. But you can't argue with his technique once you've seen his results...
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/09/09 12:45 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well thanks for clearing up Joel's message I guess I am just getting too old to see through the meaning of modern English language

The last part though he asked if I had any pictures of the handle--yes I do in fact it is the focus part of my handle carving video on the tool forum for anyone that is interested.


The handle is quite unusual and was part of the tool collection at UCV. I was given special permission at that time to photograph it for a presentation on timberframing,hewing, broadaxes and broadaxe handles along with other topics to a group of restoration and museum personnel from Russia, that was touring NA at that time. It seems that under the old regime they had lost some background information on restoration techniques and were doing catch up.

Anyway I have to shut down for the night due to bad thunderstorms going overhead so see you tomorrow

Maybe we could continue the conversation about this handle for those that are interested.

To those that just stop by each night maybe we could hear from some of you on this topic

NH
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/09/09 11:17 AM


NH - I know and have worked with one righty who hews mirror image opposite of the way I do. There's as many ways as there is skinless cats.

For me it just makes sense, I work to the right of everything, no matter what tool I am using, so the workpiece is convenient to my dominant hand. I can't fathom why anyone would do otherwise.

I have one Axe hung the opposite way, what I would call righty and you would call lefty. A Goosewing, paid more for it and use it less than any other ax. I use it when contrary grain demands I hew backwards.

Interestingly, as mentioned recently in another thread, I bought my only Gränsfors used from another lefty, when she bought it she ordered what the catalog described as a left handed Ax, she opened the box to find a wrong handed ax. They were good about exchanging it for what they see as right handed, and she and I see as left handed.

Gabel - Post away, unless my landing pad is too shiny or too much of my belly is falling over my belt.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/10/09 12:28 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks for getting back and explaining further your unusual hewing proceedure.

What you say makes sense in my books and I am looking forward to seeing alittle of that footage when Gabel is able to post it.

I realize there is many different ways to do everything, and no one way is the only way, I would say though that The majority of the left handed people hew as I explained above.

Over the years I have chatted with people that stood on top of the log and hewed alongside of their feet --they came from Sweden.

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/10/09 02:05 AM

Hello NH,

Speaking of different hewing styles like Sweden, perhaps you saw this clip when we were discussing hewing in the TTRAG '09 thread.

This Japanese fellow is a breed all his own. Shoes are optional:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueIB0h4SzHc
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/11/09 02:14 PM

i like his attitude towards trees (i also covet his scoring axe)

that's how we do it too, except more aggressively juggling to begin with (aggressive juggling- hehe). that japanese way though would mean less tear out behind knots- which that axeman is apparently quite careful about. (our shortcut is to chainsaw score the heck out of the knots.)

it's nice to have a bunch of axes, just because, and to change gears through the process.

here's something that's helped my back this year- warming up with a medicine ball. axe calisthenics- the new aerobics? get out your spandex boys and girls
Posted By: Tom Cundiff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/11/09 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Will Truax

NH - I know and have worked with one righty who hews mirror image opposite of the way I do.


Hey Will, I hew this way too, I think we talked about this at TTRAG two years ago. I learned form Dave Dauerty at a Guild workshop. I got to try hewing with both right and left Gransfors Axes. It just felt more natural not to swing across my self in a compound arc but to keep it on one side of me. I had more control to hew this way and I could work longer before I had to take a break. I have found that I like wearing Motocross gloves with padded knuckles when hewing.
I got to work with Dave again last year and have some pictures of him face hewing a 48 ft. 10 x 16 Red Oak tie beam. Timber to his right and right hand forward. Gransfors Axe, Handle bent to the left.
[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/DaveHewing1.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/DaveHewing2.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/DaveHewing3.jpg[/img][/img]
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/12/09 12:46 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well great pics Tom, and no mistake Dave is doing a great job on that lovely red oak working in the style that you describe.

This shot reminds me of the 45 foot white oak that we did as a replacement under the 1846 Muley Mill at UCV, and I can vouch that it was after the hewing was completed that I continued to build my respect for those who originaly hewed out all the timber for that structure including the 2--20 inch square by 30 foot white ash timbers that span over and under the muley blade guides.

You know as we chat about hewing styles it is a fact thatnot many people really know if they chop right or left. Many students that I taught over the years would present themselves and one of the first questions I would throw at them is "Are you right or left handed" They might reply right handed and then as I hand them an ordinary chopping axe I would ask them to grasp it like they were going to cut down a tree. A few of the righties would lead with teir left hand and a few of the lefties lefties would lead with their right hand.

They would be surprised to find out that eventho they maybe write right or left in fact they chop left and right or reverse.

I was just wondering in many of you guys are in this category?

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/12/09 01:04 AM

NH:

When I pick up an axe to chop something, my right hand is always higher up on the handle, always.

Does this make me a "right handed chopper?"
(I write left handed, actually).
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/12/09 03:21 AM


Tom --

It was David that I was speaking of, he and I have known and worked with each other off and on for fifteen years now, including teaming up to hew the ties for the Malabarn. But we both hewed the way we do before knowing each other. I think it's fair to say, while we might be a distinct minority, there is no way that we are a minority of just three counting yourself. And I feel confident in guessing that people who hewed in this manner in the past, were found in numbers.

NH --

I assure you I chop left handed, I'm as lefty as they come, I write, eat, swing a ball bat, and both golf and shoot as a lefty, there is no way that swinging an ax, something I do well and almost daily, is an exception to my almost hopeless lefthandedness. If I'm felling or limbing or scoring, my left hand is is my high hand. If we are two man scoring, I can and will and even want to switch sides of the notch, and so my high hand. I am capable of doing so, but never entirely comfortable in the doing.

To return to the gist of this conversation, why would I swing a broad ax any different than a felling ax ?

Don --

Don't know what it means, except it reenforces what we've been saying all through this thread. There is no right way, except for the way that each of us perceives that to be, as we try to determine what is both most comfortable and efficient for ourselves. There is no left way, any more than there is a wrong way.
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/12/09 07:31 PM

axes--> the way as tao. invariably. i chop left handed, with the left hand up front. it seems natural to have the timber on the right. though i can understand how it might feel proper to have that guiding hand go in a smooth arc. that gransfor axe curves on its own, describing a forward arc down the face of the timber. this arc then smooths out and falls to plumb.

boy that axe looks small in his hands.

and a pretty timber getting all chaotic and sculptural.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/17/09 12:17 AM

H everyone tonight:

Great responses, it is only through discussion that one can feel comfortable with answers to questions like we are discussing.

One's body and one's mind are sometimes very hard to understand.
My daughter who is left handed at first wrote her name backwards when she first went to school, and it took sometime for this to reverse and spell her name in the correct format, at least to us.

I am in complete agreement that everyone should hew in what ever style that they seem the most comfortable with, but only after being shown what appears to be correct first for them. As I perceived students working at first with the hewing and scoring axes if I seen what appeared to me to be a safety problem I would interveen and work with them until I felt comfortable with their style because the most acceptable and safe style is the one that you have the most control of the axes with.

Would any of you care to expand on this theory?

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/17/09 02:49 AM

controlling the axe so as to get to know the wood is definitely the focus. the neat thing about axes is that they are quite aggressive tools, wasting large amounts of wood quickly, but only where the wood wants to. so it is both aggressive and inherently sensitive at once.

just to carry on with that thought, there is a rhythm to working the axe over the log. a kind of tempo. wind up just slowly enough and one stays focused, then to keep the body working at that rate along the length of the log. days measured in trips back and forth. how many tree lengths are in your back today? you stand as tall as the trees you can cut.

shifting gears- from splitting off juggles to bouncing the edge against the timber face. hewing goes by degrees. what i'm working on is patience. the desire to get it done. to get beyond that desire would be progress and a process improvement at this end. i think there is a direct connection between the desire to bring things to an end and the fact of having a body. every desire is mortal.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/09 12:10 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well great remarks Toivo: butI am slightly confused, do you mean that you hew standing on top of the log and glancing the axe on the vertical surface working along your feet? This I am sure is not for everyone to try, and if they do extreme care is needed and I think that you will agree.

The old manuscript(s) that I have studied show clearly the hewer working alongside the timber and hewing downward across the grain, this does not mean that this is for sure the only way but I was trained to accept what history has recorded to be factual.

The far East methods of squaring timber is another thing of course, with different tools, and different historical training.
As we are trained in our historical ways they also were and proudly so!!

The Historic structures that I reconstructed over 30 years were studied pretty closely for scoring and hewing marks for as close a reproducton as was possible. Of course these buildings did originate and were built by German, Dutch, English, Irish, Swedish, and maybe a few other nationalities thrown in. To create the same telltale marks on the surfaces for future generations to study we had to hew in this methodical way.

In most cases The permanent homes and churches were constructed with the most precision work, while the barns and outbuildings along with other types of outstructures were more crudely done, but none the less at times a temendous amount of finish was applied to the surfaces of these timbers. The large anchor beams of the Dutch Barns exhibit extraordinary smooth finishes no doubt an adze finish in many cases.

I always hewed with the timber about 6" off the ground on good solid sills partly buried in the ground. This created a base that could easily be passed over as the hewing progressed along the timber, and would disappear as the chips accumulated.


Keep the chat rolling in I am sure that there is more to tell

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/09 06:42 AM

Hi NH,

So that means that you are right and everyone else is wrong ?

You have described a back breaking practice that I simply could not follow and it also sounds to me like a recipe for burying the axe head in the ground.

Regards

Ken Hume

Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/09 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken Hume
.......it also sounds to me like a recipe for burying the axe head in the ground.


Recently, I viewed several hewing videos on YouTube. One fellow did mention that his axe did get into the ground sometimes....

I would assume that once a good chip pile was present that this would prevent the axe from entering the ground again.

I saw one fellow scoring to his chalk line along the top of the log while standing on the side. He then rolled the log to have this scored side on the side. Then he hewed off the side.

I've noticed new comers to hewing have difficulty standing on top of the log to score the side, and wondered if this method would be an advantage to a newcomer? Although it may not be historically correct, it could be easier to some.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/09 02:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Ken Hume

You have described a back breaking practice that I simply could not follow...



I assure you there is no easy way to hew.

I've found that few people have the combination of determination, strength, precision and stamina to keep at it long enough for it to hurt less and for them to become proficient at it.

Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/18/09 02:59 PM

I have a new appreciation of hewing after doing a bit @ the TTRAG event. To look at a big barn that's all hewn will be evermore humbling now.

How many hundreds of feet were hewn to make a plain old barn???

Maybe the farmer had strong motivations that kept his axe a swinging. It was his livelihood, his survival.

Then again, slaves might have done a majority of the hewing in some areas. Accounts read that pit-sawing of boards was done by slaves.

Maybe hewing should be regular training at boot camp! TF barracks?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/19/09 01:31 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks for all the viewpoints as far as the correct hewing position is concerned, and you all have and put forward good viewpoints.

I am sorry Ken that you seem to take my remarks in that context, I thought that I had made myself clear that depending where you live hewing probably was done in many different ways.

The old manuscripts that I had access to were Britsh in origin
and correct me if I am not right were you not taught to respect what is presented as a true representation of facts by unknown artists, and in many cases before photography paintings and artist sketches were the only way that scenes of work could be recorded.

For everyone looking in on this subject under discussion, what would be your preference, and how would you present proper subject material to those that want to learn a true safe method to work by?

I would much rather bury my axe head in the dirt than have it glance and be a danger to ones leg or foot.

I have always said that after the teaching is done then one can stray away from proven methods if one wishes but that person has to accept what may happen when using irregular methods, and I am sure that in many cases not only with hewing disasterous results were imminent and did happen.

Thanks all for the discussion which I am sure is not finished yet--

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/19/09 10:12 AM

It sound like the "don't whittle toward your self you could cut yourself". This is a false statement cutting toward your own body is the safest and most controlled, this is a bit of a stretch in comparing to the axe but the basic principal applies. The same goes for the adze. In using a certain motion your body creates a break stopping the further motion of the tool.

As for the old pictures, I have always seen them as misrepresentations of the truth, this done on purpose to keep the secrets secret, allowing some truth to leak out but not all of it.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/22/09 01:35 AM

Hi everyone tonight:Hi Timbeal,well I have did alot of wittling in my day and I always wittled away from myself if possible, but then as I have said many times before people do work in many different ways.Working on a shaving horse is one instance that it is necessary to work pulling the drawknife towards your body.  I always wore a leater apron to protect myself incase of a slip.

Talking about adzing, well I have did  a pile in my day, and here again you are working between your feet aned ankles.  If you have the proper rhythm and are not tired then you have a fairly good control of the adze.  The problem with the adze is that it can glance sideways if you loose control.I have did alotof trough adzing and it is quite dangerous if you do not pay strict attention to what you are doing because at times you literally are working beside,infront of , and below your feet, and as the work progresses it gets increasingly dangerous.anyway good remarks and do it as you will NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/22/09 09:29 AM

Anyone else whittle toward themselves?

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/23/09 01:03 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

WE have certainly given this subject a good going over I hope that those that are stopping by will benefit from our discussions especially if they are trying to grasp or maybe getting up the courage to try and hew a timber for the first time.

I prefer a 28 inch--3" offset handle for my broadaxe, and it does correspond to handles that we have in our tool collection at UCV.

Whether this is the correct length for everyone is not for me to say but maybe you mightlike to throw in a few remarks on the subject

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/25/09 09:07 PM

Hi Everybody,

Richard O Byrne sent me a link to a short on line video that shows the manufacture of Tremont nails. This video is important because it demonstrates a cut nail making machine in action.

http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320111/manufacturing-antique-cut-nails.htm

Watch, listen & learn.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/27/09 08:01 PM

Hi,

The hewing method employed by Mourad Manesse in France to hew mainly European larch can be seen on his website photo gallery at :-

http://www.charpenteur.fr/phocagallery/galerie.html

Standing on top of the log and taking a good swing just like log building proponent Charles McCraven seems to be the l'ordre du jour. There is some sitting down astride the log to put a good quality finish on the surface.

Those are some mean looking axes !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/28/09 12:31 AM

Nice pictures. That's the long-handled axe you need. Looks like he's taking quite the swing.

"Off with his head..."

p.s. enjoyed the nail video
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/28/09 12:55 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Thanks Ken for the wonderful group of historic restoration photos employed in France by what appears to be a very skilled group of artisans.

they sure employ some mean techniques of hewing and certainly broadens my knowledge on that subject somewhat.

Standing on top of the log hewing seems to be a method employed by tradesmen in a broad spectrum of the area from Frsnce eastward to Sweden and that whole general area.

It would be interesting to know if there is any indication that hewing was accomplished standing beside the log like here in North America --at least by a good share of the early pioneers.

What puzzles me somewhat is the UEL"s that came here in Ontario about 1784 generally were from Germany, Scotland, Ireland, and England used the beside the log technique seemingly contadictory to what was done in the olde country of origin.

Any comments?


NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/30/09 01:58 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well as I reflect on "Historic Hewing" in general, and maybe how these past conversations have added at least to my knowledge on the subject, it is reasonable that to lead someone as an instructor some of the historic background should be presented so that the student or students could select a style by which they might want to be instructed in. If the instructor can not provide the training in that style then he or she should at that time entertain a moton that they try and find another source for the traning that they require.

Otherwise the course then should go ahead using the training method that the trainer is well versed in and feels comfortable with.

any comments?

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/30/09 07:51 AM

Hi Richard,

I would not punish yourself over this issue. I won't be swinging an axe like Mourad any time soon. What I do think needs to be taken into account is a persons physical condition. Apart from teen and twenty year olds we are all most likely in differing stages of "decomposition" and so the method employed will of necessity need to take into account those physical limitions.

Safety must be the key consideration as an axe can do an awfull lot of damage.

Rest easy !

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/01/09 12:42 AM

HI everyone tonight:

Well spoken words Ken

I realize that not many person(s) in general will hew at any great rate but What I am interested in is to preserve the technique as best I can for future generations of interpreters, and those that wish to master the use of this great historic tool.

I did hew daily up into my fifties mainly because I was hardened to it, and one day led to another and so on. Another factor was at least in my case, we interpreted historic reconstruction of period buildings, and this was done from may to October, right through the hottest months. Some days when the temp reached into the 90's you knew that this surely was not a job that would have been historically done at that time.


One thing that I am almost certain of and as you reflect on it, is that the hewing or broadaxing even by the veterans of years gone by was a seasonal chore being done in the cooler weather like fall, winter or spring, not during the cropping season, or real hot days, I believe they were too smart for that.

The hot weather also played foul with the freshly hewn surfaces and special care had to be exercised to shield them from the hot sun's rays.

There is quite an interest in learning the technique of hewing across the land, and as I look back on the students that I had over the years middle aged men were the main grist of the pack.
No young men as I recall it.

Now when it came to hewing and really meaning business like meetng a deadline I had to recruit and train younger men that could sweat and din't mind getting a few callouses on their paws. Once you passed a certain point with them there was no turning back, and I got to say that at the end of a busy season they began to look like a seasoned pro, which as far as I was concerned they were. These boys were hewing under harsher conditons that I am sure their fore fathers did.

Now before I leave for tonight I do know for certain that in the logging camps especially on the west coast hewing did carry on year around, hewing railway ties especially was year around, so here again in my area hewing no doubt was seasonal whereas in other areas is was strictly a job with a dollr figure attached.

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/02/09 12:55 AM

NH:

Do you have any accounts to post (internet articles, books that may be refered to) regarding the hewing of railroad ties?

Must have been no-nonsense work. Not the gratification of hewing a project, pegging a joint, raising a wall, etc.


Maybe there's an old blues song somewhere:

I 'aint broke, but I'm badly bent
Swingin' this axe to pay the rent.

The rich folk from New York gonna ride this rail
No future's mine, jus' 'dis cross-tie jail.


Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/02/09 01:44 AM

HI everyone tonight

To answer your question about hewing railwauy ties I do have an article written by a person that experienced the last years of the lumber and tie hewing era.

It is not available to the general public though but I may be able to post some exerts from it--I will see--no promises

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/02/09 10:30 AM

I have a book on axes, it might have been called, The Boys Book of Axes. I can not put my hand on it right away, in it cedar is mentioned as a tie material from the Maine woods. The axe used was called the Cedar Axe, it was used for felling and hewing. A picture in the book depicts a tree felled and still attached to the stump while it was hewn in place.

Tim
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/03/09 02:23 PM

I think Richard is referring to a manuscript I sent him a while back that was written by a man who lives in the retirement community where my wife works. He worked on the rivers floating the hewn ties from the woods to the tracks in the 30's. I have a photocopy, and it's about 75 pages.

"From the broadax to the railroad tracks" by Mark Goodman in cooperation with the Wind River Historical Center, Dubois, WY.

I have no idea how you could get a copy, but it's a fascianting read. Millions (really) of railroad ties were hand-hewn in the woods, and floated and flumed to the railroad tracks. CB.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/04/09 01:04 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Hi Clark, and thanks for jumping in with that information and clarification.

From what I can make out railway ties were manufactured from many different types of trees, depending on the area that the hewing Companies had control over.

In the extreme west the giant redwoods were cut up in short lengths with very long cross cut saws and then the ties were split out and using the hewing axes they were straightened up somewhat into regular shapes and sizes.

Whole landscapes were cut off to produce railway ties during the era of railway construction that happened about 1840's to 1900, and one of the methods of producing the ties were to fell the trees still attached at the stump, and then walking up along the length of the tree it was flattened and then cut up into ties.

NH
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/04/09 01:25 PM

My wife talked to the author yesterday, and he's recently had a stroke. Perhaps we can arrange to get the manuscript scanned and converted to pdf. I'd be willing to host in on my site. Would there be much interest in that? I think it would make his day to hear that folks were clamoring to read his research/personal history. CB.
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/04/09 02:15 PM

That's a great idea; it's got my vote. Sounds like an interesting read.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/07/09 08:20 PM

Hi Guys,

Here is the site that you have been seeking for hewing action :-

http://www.en.charpentiers.culture.fr/treesintohouses/fromtheforesttotheworksite/squaringoff

Check out the whole site. Its sets an example that the TFG should mimic or better.

The gauntlet is thrown down. En guarde !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/07/09 08:32 PM

This is a great find.
The Guild should try and do a similar set up... only better.

So far, I've just watched the "Croatian squaring-off method" (Filmed in 1982 it says). What I noticed is the hewer is using the same axe throughout the entire process. And what a beautiful tree- no limbs for 100 feet!

Posted By: Joel McCarty

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/07/09 08:47 PM

Very nice.

Thanks Ken.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/09/09 12:21 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks also Ken for providing such a educational peek into the historical subject of hewing. I can access the site but I cannot play the video just a few frames and then it quits on me. Can anyone help me out--thanks in advance

I hope that everyone is enjoying your find.

Also Daiku thanks for jumping in and just maybe providing hard copies for those that might want to broaden out their knowledge on Tie hewing here in North America.

NH

Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/09/09 12:10 PM

Clark,

I'll clamor for the reading material.

Thanks,
TW
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/19/09 01:32 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well I have been away for a while but life has to go on in other areas although this is one of my favorite ones, with your guys and gals in historic "wood working world".

You know as I look at the information that Ken sent on hewing it seems to me that our North American style of hewing adapted some of the best features of other countries that is represented, while retaining the safety features of our type of hewing.

It is just like the styles of timberframing it appeared to change about every 150 to 200 years.

For instance the Pennsylvania "people" that immigrated up into Upper Canada about 1784 seemed to switch quite quickly to the 3 bay style of barn construction, and at least around here only a sprinkling of the "large Anchor Beam" central isle barns were built and then things seemed to change about 1800.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why this old established style of construction faded away so quickly?

Anxious to hear your thoughts---------

NH
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/19/09 02:01 AM

Hi NH,

Good question. I can only speculate why immigrants often dropped certian styles of barn after settling into their new territories.

Perhaps a combination of tehnological advances and environmental factors are behind barn evolution. Here in New England, in the early days, the "English Barn" soon gave way to the gable-entry "New England Barn."

As many know, expansion and serviceability were problamatic with the side-entry English barns. A center isle w/ a door at each end allowed a wagon to reach all areas of a New England barn even if it was expanded (wich was done by simply adding bents to the rear). And w/ two doors, no need to turn the wagon around to exit.

America expanded too and farms grew. Sheep farming gave way to dairy here in Maine, which required ever-bigger barns w/ larger haylofts, etc. Steeper roofs, longer buildings... Doors no longer swung open, but slid on tracks because you didn't need to shovel as much in order to slide a door open in winter.

The introduction of sawn stock may have also played a role in barn design. Those mammoth anchor beams come to mind. Ease of construction w/ sawn stock maybe got rid of the anchor??... Why hew a anchor beam if you didn't really need to...

The open "post-free" space the anchor beam afforded might have become less important as well. I don't know much about why the Dutch built this way.
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/19/09 03:08 PM

Recently, I was at a site where some volunteers were hewing some logs for a small house that would hopefully represent a settlement house of their area.

One volunteer was using a board axe that he owned and claimed was fitted with a handle that was "field reversible". That is he could just pull the wedge in the handle end and reverse the head so that it could hang the other way. That way he could hew either left handed or right handed as he felt the need.

Him seemed to think that this was a standard "feature" that this head and handle were made this way on purpose.

Being new to broad axes and handles, I had never seen or heard of such a thing.

I was wondering if anyone else out there in hewing world has heard of such a thing?

Signed inquiring mind....

Jim Rogers

Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/20/09 02:03 PM

i've seen but not used an axe like this. laurie's hardware store in thunder bay ontario had one - though apparently, as i was told by the old finn in the armchair who minded the shop- it was not for sale because he liked it so much just to look at it. as i recall it had a removable wedge as you describe Jim to make it left or right handed. i wonder how that would be handy. maybe to accommodate changing grain, but one would need to be ambidextrous or chop cross handed?
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/20/09 03:26 PM

Thanks for your reply.
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/20/09 03:38 PM

thinking about how it would be useful, i was reminded of that japanese hewing video on youtube, where the craftsman comes against a tough knot, stops, then comes at it from the other side. but would you switch around the axe head just for that? or maybe to move from standing on the log, chopping on the right hand side of the timber say, and then getting down beside it for close work with the timber on the right. ???
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/23/09 01:46 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well we seem to have gotten back to the subject of broad axe handles.

Reversible broadaxe handles are pretty neat, in fact I have made a few of them myself from an antique specimen that I happened to come by in a collection of tools.

They are not easy to make but real handy especially if say the broadaxe was handled down from generation to generation and the new person's hand orientation changed say from right to left.

Another senario would be that the axe would find its way to a new home and the new owner's hand orientation was opposite of the original owner.

Thanks for coming on board both of you

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/28/09 01:05 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

I would like to go back a few entries to "Our barns's" comment about the evolution of "English barns" to "New England Barns".

The descripton of each type seems to put the "New England Barns" having the same characteristics as The olde Dutch style barns with the central Isle, and the large anchor beams with exits at each end, while the "English barns" use a side entrance with a barn floor that also exits each side of the structure.

Up here in Upper Canada the English barn seems to have caught on after the advent of the "Dutch style or New England barn" mainly because of the ease of filling ie; the mows are located on one side of the barn floor, extending right up to the peak.

I guess that I am taken back alittle that it seems that in the New England the English barns predated the "New England Barns" whereas in our area the reverse seems to be true.

Maybe we need alittle bit more clarification on this issue,

Thanks all for coming on board

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/03/09 12:49 AM

HI everyone this rainy night:

Well to address another queston posed by Our barns on why the dutch built those rather large open ailed barns with the massive anchor beams, well I am no authority but I was always told that those large open floor spaces were well used for many different chores which needed really open spaces, one being the hand thrashing and wind cleaning of grain after it had been separated from the straw.

Even after the advent of the threshing mill powered by a tread mill the whole operation took place in these areas.

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/03/09 01:27 AM

elusive triple post. NH you are an internets geniush.

interesting to hear of axes being passed on with buildings. makes sense.

Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/03/09 02:11 AM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Hello everyone tonight:


I guess that I am taken back alittle that it seems that in New England the English barns predated the "New England Barns" whereas in our area the reverse seems to be true.

Maybe we need alittle bit more clarification on this issue,

Thanks all for coming on board

NH


Hi NH:

The English Barn is the older style around these parts. I think design drivers depends on what one needed in a barn at the time. New England is not great farmland, pretty rocky, but it is great grazing land. As I've studied, once the midwest opened up after the civil war and railroads really got things connected, New England farms were not able to compete w/ the "bread basket" of the midwest, some of the most productive land in the world as far as grain and vegetables.

New Englanders switched to livestock and put that grazing land to good use. Dairy (and to a lesser extent, beef) really took off as the new farming trend.

A farmer needs a big barn to do dairy to any scale. The long aisle of a New England barn proved efficent for cow tie-ups, and for the hay fork typically mounted at the ridge... hay could be carried to the many mows all along one side (typically the north side, which kept it cooler in summer), while the cows were lined along the south side (keeping them warmer in winter).

Expansion comes up in many readings as a shortcomming of the English barn design. The English barn was typically a smaller barn for a homesteader/ subsistence farm and worked well for early New Englanders. But as America grew after the Civil War, so did the dairy industry.

I can reference some books if you're interested.

I'm interested to hear that the English Barn became the style of choice in your area. Maybe smaller operations drove this. Was livestock big business in those parts??
Posted By: Bruce Chrustie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/07/09 02:20 AM

holy crap! when you see blood you have scored too far wink
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/09/09 12:50 AM

Well Hello again everyone tonight:

Hi Our barns--

Thanks for the deep look back into times gone by especially in your area --your conclusion in the progression of barn styles seems well put, and I must say well thought out indeed!!

It makes great sense at least to me that the smaller barns came first and then the larger barns later to fill the nitch needed to develop the large dairy herds that grew quickly across the midwest US

Here where I live the smaller family operated dairy farms were the backbone of the agricultural dairy industry for nearly 250 years, and to some extent is just now being swollowed up by larger operations. My son still operates a 36 cow dairy herd but pressure is being applied from alot of different areas for expansion\change, this usually comes from the environmentalists and gov't agencies, and I must say that it is not for the best in my books.

Hi Bruce:--want to elaborate on who is seeing blood--any way it is nice that you dropped in

NH
Posted By: Thane O'Dell

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/09/09 02:49 PM

NH
I have a proper felling axe, a broad axe head and an adze head. Other then needing some handles for my tools, what would be the best way or suitable why to learn this craft. Obviously a one on one lesson would be ideal but if there was a video available would that be enough to get started?
Thane
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/09/09 07:54 PM

Thane:
Northern Hewer has a video about hewing for sale.....

Posted By: Thane O'Dell

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/10/09 02:08 AM

Thanks Jim. I will message him.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/14/09 01:01 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Hello Jim and Thane:

Thanks Jim for the offering Thane directions to My training videos posted on the "Tools for sale" Forum I appreciate it, and Thane thanks for the interest, I have sent you a reply.

It would be nice Shane to describe the broadaxe, and adze heads that you have, maybe we can offer you some tips on maintenance.

There are many very experienced people that drop by this site each day and you can benefit from their experiences and advice I am sure.

As well there probably are many as well as yourself that may benefit from a good discussion

NH





Posted By: Thane O'Dell

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/16/09 12:15 AM

Hi guys and thanks for the support. I have recieved your message NH and will consider which dvds I would want to order from you.(cost being the issue) As my wife took the camera to work with her I can't post pictures of the Broad axe or adze and will have to describe them as best as possible. The adze looks new although it has some rust. There are no signs it has ever been used. It even has an edge. The Broad axe head is 11", flat on one side except at the ends where it comes out a bit. There is appx. half inch of hard steel on cutting edge with some small rust pits(nothing major). The handle can be fitted either way. I have made many handle for hammers and axes but I know what they look like so it's not hard. I've never held a adze or broad axe in my hands before. Things like this need to be made properly or you just make things harder for yourself. I believe the first axe used in hewing is the felling axe(correct me if I'm wrong) which is used to remove most of the stock in the scoring process.
This axe I bought from Lee Valley and believe was made in Germany and cost me $100. It has a thin wide blade and a 36" handle. Thats it! Now I just need me some learnin!
Thane
Thane
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/16/09 07:13 PM

Hello everyone tonight:

Hi Thane and thanks for the reply.

I ( and maybe many others) are looking forward to your pics and maybe helping you to get to know and feel comfortable enough with your tools to attempt to use them safely.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/19/09 01:38 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Sorry that I have been away so long but I have been away for a spell for a little R and R.

Hope that everyone is well and enjoying our return at least in this area to summer, it has been dreadfully wet around here.

One of my land mark barns in this area just bit the dust, age finally caught up to it and I guess we could add neglect on the owners part. One good thing is that a few years ago I visited it and did some sketchings

speaking of barns, on our tour that was part of the Morrisbug TTRAG Conference a few years back we visited a stone Barn near Brockville Ontario, this was one of the most photographed barns in eastern Canada, well the new owners just recently demolished it only the front stone arch remains, and of course any photographs that some of you may have taken at that time--

Do any of you remember it? I would like to know.

You know timberframing can take many hats, but I wonder how many of you have tried your hand at timberframing a mill structure with its many intricacies and huge timber framework members?

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/19/09 07:17 AM

Hi Richard,

I suppose that wind and water mill work is our speciality.

Our current windmill project in Barbados has arms that were single piece greenheart - 68 feet long 14.5" x 11". The main windshaft is also greenheart octagonal 24" x 24" with the vertical drive shaft the same dimension but in purpleheart.

We have been unable to find replacement single piece arm timbers and so will make up new multi piece arms with a 40 foot centre section and 20 foot outers with 6 foot overlapping scarf joints.

This kind of project is not for the feint of heart. Windmills are very dangerous beasts. People regularly get killed.

Regards

Ken Hume & Son
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/25/09 06:50 PM

Hello,
it's m' 1st time commenting here and maybe we can say what I have to write is more structural rather than relating to this particular topic. I find the topic, if you can call it that at this point, interesting but following it , oh, taxing. Anyway here goes- This line has gotten way out of hand to the point that there are so many entries that they don't fit my screen -and I have a big screen. I have to scroll to the right- or is it left- to read. Can it not be broken up? It has become a giant monopolistic subject and needs to be reigned in and like AT&T broken down into its constituent parts, Or maybe eliminated and allowed to regenerate... I don't know...
Don
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/25/09 06:57 PM

Don:
If you go to the top of the thread and click on "Topic Options" then select the last one at the bottom called: "switch to flat mode" you may find it easier to read.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/26/09 07:08 PM

Thanks Jim, that is better. Just getting the hang of this, it seems there is a lot to figure out.

Don
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/29/09 01:10 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Thanks for coming on board Ken with that interesting update on your windmill project in the Barbados.

I for one take a real interest in mill construction having been involved with all 3 waterpowered mills at Upper Canada Village over the years in one way or another.

One thing that amazes me is the fact that each one was constructed no doubt without a major input from the powers above but mostly from a millwright with many years of experience.

At the output during preparation of each ones construction site, a thorough knowledge of the finished mill with its equipment had to be well understood.

Take for instance the Mulley Saw mill, the placement of the water Barrel or as some refer to it as the Rose Wheel at the extreme lower level of the site had to be within at the very least a few inches of both side and vertical placement so that as the stories were added and the machinery put in place things had to be right "on",.

Ken--Your reference to the search for 68foot timbers for the windmill arms brings to my mind what a monstrous construction it trully is, just the mast and main pinion timber, not to speak of the massive bearings to hold and contain this timber, along with the breaking system, and thrust problems that one would encounter during the furies of one of their many hurricanes.

Your problem of putting together shorter timbers by using a 6 foot scarf to reach the 68 foot necessary length seems to be quite a challenge.

As a question that comes to my mind how did you arrive at 6 feet rather than 8 feet or possibly shorter for the scarf, did you use historical or modern methods to arrive at this final size?.

And maybe you could just touch on the scarfing method for everyone visiting thi site.

Thanks again for coming on board

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/29/09 08:18 AM

Hi Richard,

Working on old structures is not necessarily to be thought of in fundamental "new build" design terms but maybe thought more in terms of design evolution where some factors are fixed or constrained as in nature. All greenheart timbers leaving Guyana today are shipped inside 40 foot sea containers and it is this factor that now determines the basic raw building block dimensions for this mill. The new arms are to be made up as per the orginals at 68 feet long and this will be achieved by using two 40 foot timbers for each arm with one 40 foot clear span timber used in the central portion of the arm and the other 40 ft timber halved to provide 2 off x 20 foot timbers that will be then be scarved to either end of the central 40 footer.

If we do some simple arithmetic we can arive at the maximum scarf length possible i.e. 40 + (20 - 6) x 2 = 68.

It gets worse ! Piggy backed onto each side of the 68 foot arms are 41 ft whips which form the spines for the sails and these bring the fully assembled diameter of the sails up to 84 feet all of which is supported at one central point on the 2 foot diameter windshaft.

Some time back on this forum I asked if anyone could provide references to books that contained examples of metal reinforced scarf joints and both Gabel & Will T came up trumps in this respect and the knowledge contained within the pages of those reference books has been put to good use.

The method employed for scarfing is currently under development and so I am somewhat reluctant to discuss this here in an open forum. I am working with a millwright who has over 40 years experience in rebuilding windmills and the combination of experience, brain & computing power will doubtless arrive at an optimal solution given the current constraints. As with natural evolution adopting this design development step solution methodology will either work and the mill live on to crush another day or alternatively if it fails then this type of windpowered sugar cane crushing mill will become extinct.

This site can and does provide a potential powerhouse of knowledge.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/09 12:24 AM

HI everyone tonight:

Well I finally made it back on, I don't know about all you guys and gals out there but I have been having a rough time signing in sometimes it is pretty near impossible.

Anyway Ken for everyone out there that might be interested in a few more details the mill you are restoring, would you comment on how the power is transfered from the 24" main drive axle to the crushing machinery no doubt in the lower part of the mill.

I expect that a large vertical shaft was incorporated, could you please comment.

The mill structure itself is it of timber frame construction?

The last question that I personally am interested in being quite familiar with placing and running of the grinding stones in a grist mill, is the grinding machinery that handled the sugar cane being an altogether different process, and the daily capacity of such a mill in tonnes.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/09 08:04 AM

Hi Richard,

Currently a large 24 x 24 purpleheart vertical shaft is employed to bring power down the tower from the sails to the horizontal cane crushing rollers. A very long time ago these rollers were mounted vertically and were set in groups of three ? What this means is that the cane was fed through the first set of rollers and then a couple of ladies on the receiving side would take the partially crushed cane and turn this about and feed it back through the second set of rollers. In time this process was automated by insertion of a "dumb lady" plate which automatically received and re-fed the cane back through the second set of rollers. The reason the "dumb lady" name was given to the plate is thought to derive from the practice by the original ladies of chattering as the mill crushed the cane and when replaced by the plate the mill effectively then fell silent. There are no known working examples of these vertical rollers still in exisitance today or so we thought until passing by a cricket pitch one day where we noted a large iron cylinder roller being used to flatten the pitch. This roller had axial grooves cut along the outside of the hollow roll. Closer inspection revealed that this was indeed part of an old vertical roll setup which demonstrated that the rolls were made up from multiple sections stacked one on top of the other and slid over the outside of a large turned wooden post - not dissimilar to the ones recently posted on this website.

Seems that recycling is not a new concept. Sweet !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/09 01:21 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer

Well I finally made it back on, I don't know about all you guys and gals out there but I have been having a rough time signing in sometimes it is pretty near impossible.
NH


NH, don't log out..... just close your browser and next time you enter the forum you should be logged in....
This works for me, but I'm unsure if it will work for you....

Jim Rogers
Posted By: OurBarns1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/09 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
HI everyone tonight:

I don't know about all you guys and gals out there but I have been having a rough time signing in sometimes it is pretty near impossible.

NH


Hi NH,

Try this as another fix to your logging-in issue:
At the top of this page, click on "My Stuff"
Select "Cookies"
Click the button labeled "Expire Cookies"

It says "Expiring (deleting) the cookies set in your browser by this board may be useful if you suspect that they are damaged or the board is malfunctioning for you."

I'm enjoying the mill discussion. Great stuff, especially the scarfing and the 24 x 24 purpleheart timber shaft.

Ken when this project "winds" down maybe you can post some pictures of all this.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/09 10:24 PM

It would be nice to see. Some video as well, maybe.

I cleared my cookies out and it fixed the problem.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/18/09 12:46 AM

Well Hello everyone tonight:

I just was able to get loged in for the first time tonight, it has been quite a struggle for the last week or so. I just thought that I would try it to see if it would work as I was starting to give up and lo and behold it worked, nice to be back with everyone again.

I would like to thank Ken for the posting that explained the main cane crushing component of the Barbados Mill--way back on the 2nd of the month, it sure was appreciated, and I am sure many members that passed by this site stand in awe of the millwrighting that must have gone into the construction of these mills.

One question that I have for you Ken---

-- what kind of a braking system could handle such a monstrous piece of equipment which in case of an emergency could stop and hold the mill's sails idle through high wind disturbances?

I know from experience that the slow revolving sails would create an immense tourque, and in turn would require a specialized braking system along with very heavy gearing

Thanks again Ken
NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/18/09 07:20 AM

Hi Richard,

This may come as a surprise to some as it did to me but there is no braking system. Should there be a need to slow the mill down then the cap would be rotated out of facing directly into the wind and then the cane crushing rollers would be loaded up to slow the mill down eventually with the cane causing the mill to stop. The sails can then be turned backwards manually using ropes secured to the ends of the sails, the rolls cleared and then the sails tied off and secured to horizontal posts built into the lower part of the mill wall.

This is not exactly a very safe system of working and at first sight this would certainly not meet today's health and safety at work (OSHWA ?) standards but a delicate balance of weight and force (torque) is going on in the cap and the introduction of braking forces might well result in unexpected consequences.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/19/09 10:39 PM

I once asked an older sawyer how the would start and stop a water powered mill, in case of some need such as service the blade.
And I asked what kind of "clutch" was used to disengage the arbor.....

You can't imagine the look he gave me......

And he simply stated, you "stop the water......."

It seems that most mills that he was familiar with had some type of water way that could be opened and closed by inserting or removing some short planks in a chute.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/09 12:55 AM

Well hello everyone:

Thanks to Mr. Ken Hume who put in a help call for me--- once again I am able to access this chat room, it has been 1 month since I have been able to come on board with all my friends from around the globe--it feels really good for sure!

I have been looking at the last post from Jim in regards to an explanation about starting and stopping a muley mill, well here we go--------

To start things off jim, you must understand that the muley blade is tethered to the crank fastened on the end of a 12" oak axle which in turn extends through the centre of the horizontal water barrel.

The tethering is via a large heavy oak pitman that in turn pushes upwards and downward as the axle rotates, this rotation can reach up to 125 rpms with 80 or 90 being a normal speed one at which the machinery is designed to run and run and run with very little maintenance whatever.

Now to answer your question---

You can see there is no clutch between the power source and the vertical blade, so to stop the mill the method that our 1858 mill was designed to use was as follows.--

At the end of the head race and in line with the water barrel directly below the blade there is an opening in the end wall of the head race of approx 24" by 36". On the inside suface of the wall along each edge of the opening are metal plates securely fastened. Against these plates slides a door (vertically) also with metal plates that bear against the ones on the wall. This door has fastened to it a heavy upright stem of oak (2 by 6) which reaches well above the raceway walls. fastened to this upright and cantilevered over a fulcrum is another rather heavy horizontal oak 2by 9 which is long enough to reach the exterior wall of the mill, now the tricky part is that this fulcrum has to be placed at the point that the weight of the 2 by9 should balance the weight of the door and vertical stem, but not quite.

Along the wall (on the upper level)extending down to the end of the 2by9 is a round pole that the sawyer can pull up on or shove down on depending on whether he wants to start or stop the mill.

This system works really well and I will explain.

To start the mill the sawyer shoves down and instantly opens up the gate fully allowing an inital thrust of water to hit the inside of the barrel wheel, this gives the equipment the power it needs to lift the pitman and the blade to the top of its first stroke, then the revolving motion with the momentum of the weight of the pitman the blade the 12" oak shaft, and the large cast collars gives the saw blade a smooth motion with the equipment acting like a flywheel so to speak.

To sort of end this discussion for tonight I will add that the sawyer can at his own discression slow down or speed up the mill with a gentle pull up or shove down on the pole by his side

This mill uses about 2000 gals of water per minute at full throttle

hope you all enjoy this little chat please ask any question and I will try and answer them to te best of my ability.

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/09 02:47 AM

Thanks for the explanation of how that mill works....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/09 02:26 AM

Hi everyone tonight

You are entirely welcome JIm, it is questions and interest from people like you that makes my day, and I hope that those that stop by can understand some of the mill technology from years gone by.

Our mill as it operates today uses a barrel wheel, or as some prefer to call it a Rose Wheel, there are pictures of it in past posts on this very chat site, itmay take alittle looking around to find them, but you might just run across some other tidbits that are quite interesting that deal with many other subjects, including the original one hewing timber by hand with a broadaxe, this in itself is quite a varied subject depending on who you are talking to, and what part of the globe you are from.

The term Rose Wheel I expect is derived from the cast iron collars on each sideof the Barrel Wheel's box, These collars fit on tapered surfaces on the 12" oak shaft and rotate with the shaft at about 1\4" clearance from the sides of the box creating a pressurized interior cavity. One of the main enemies of this set up is believe it or not a single square nail, if one happens to work its way along the head race and enters the pressurized area on its way out it could get lodged between the collar and the wooden oak box, 1\4" being just the right gap for it to enter and hang by its head. If this happens it is very difficult to remove, and will stop the mill dead in its tracks.

To get back to the term Rose Wheel, the cast iron collars referred to above have multiple cups casted into each one in such a way to give it an appearance of rose pedals.

One interesting feature about these collars is that the 2 of them are like a reflection in a mirror and applied on each side of the Box gives thrust in the same direction.

The produced power from our setup at UCV with an 8 foot head of water and at full throttle is about 6 horsepower, which does not seem like much in our world but remember whatI said above once you have the whole setup revolving say at 80 rpm it is developing far more power than that simply because of the mass of all the revolving parts, including the force of the water. At full throttle 2000 gals or approx 10 tons of water is forcing its way into the pressurized cavity every minute, and then trying to find its way out, that is when you capture useful energy to work with.


I have had course to measure the horsepower at full throttle (125 rpm) with the machinery revolving and I estimate that for brief periods you could have 20 horsepower of useful (smooth)energy.

I hope that you enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/09 07:20 AM

Hi Richard,

Your power estimates are of interest to me.

In simple terms power = torque x rotational speed and this does not necessarily follow a linear relationship i.e. if the speed doubles but the developed torque say halves then the power produced is the same as before. I wonder if your power testing managed to develop a set of Power / Torque versus speed curves for the mill. This might have helped established the optimum speed at which the mill should run when in production.

6HP is not so different from that provided to a small portable band saw and so this sawmill should be able to do some useful work. What happened when the saw got to the end of its travel and hence had finished absorbing the power produced by the water wheel. Was there a general speed up in the reciprocation of the saw or did you have a flywheel momentum storage device to help smooth out power demand fluctuations ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/09 05:16 PM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks for coming on board Ken:

to answer your question on speed up of the mill at the end of the cut, well here goes----

depending on the size of the cut ie: (face cut) by this I mean cutting a 6 inch cut versus a maximum cut of 28" would of course produce different cut termination results.


As the saw approaches its final vertical cut the sawyer is fully aware if the water gate is fully open or only partially open--if fully open then there is a tremendous increase in speed and he needs to close the gate immediately to slow down rotational speed, whereas if the equipment is sort of coasting along with a minimal amount of water to affect the cutting action then at times no adjustment is necessary during the final cut.

My method of calculating horsepower is maybe not the most scientific in the world but I believe it gives some approximate results, or results that are in the ball park area.

I was fortunate to have been asked to power a belt drive 1860's shingle saw, by extracting power from the barrel wheel. Now I knew from my experience that to drive this circular bladesaw up to speed and do work with it you would need approx 800 rpm or it would wander in the cut, and the speed needed to be held constant.

I knew before hand that because the rpm's of the barrel wheel being a max of 125 meant that a series of pulleys of proper diameters would be needed to come up with the final 800 rpm's, meaning to me that to just get the shingle saw up to running speed would be a great effort on the part of the barrel wheel.

Now one thing that was sort of questionable in my mind was that the shingle saw also had a cast flywheel which would create power once up to speed, would it be enough to do some work, alittle work, or no work--that was the 64 dollar question.

Anyway we forged ahead with directions from my superiors at that time. I had many misgivings about safety especially of the cast flywheel, Iknew that excessive speeds was quite hazardous and a calmity could result if the operator could not keep the saw from running wild after a cut was finished. to this end a safety brake on the flywheel was installed.

To make a long story short, we were able to cut shingles by allowing the machine to pick up speed do a cut and repeat again.

after this trial period I was asked to cut a large quantity of pine shingles for one of our restoration projects, and to this end we removed the shingle saw and in another location powered it using a massey 35 hp modern engine. Now it made it work and we could cut fairly steadily.

As a final notation to this discussion this same shingle saw was used for many years powered by a 2 horse tread mill, which I operated daily, it actually could saw shingles steadier than the 6 horse power of the Mulley saw mill, but not quite as steady as the massey tractor.

I always wondered why the 2 horse tread mill seemed to have more power than the Barrel wheel.

Any comments out there

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/22/09 02:50 PM

Hi Richard et al,

You might be interested in checking out the following article on a watermill just unearthed on the river Thames at Greenwich.

The article can be found on pages 30-35 in the November 2009 edition of "Current Archeology" magazine. Part of this article can be read on line at :- http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/water-power-in-medieval-greenwich.htm

What they don't tell you in the on line version of the article is that the remnants of this Thames water mill have now been dendrodated to 1194 - that's early. The framework discovered employs tusk tenons in the construction. Mud would appear to have amazing preservative properties.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/22/09 03:41 PM

Hi Ken and all tonight

Thanks Ken for posting thatlink on the unearthing of the tide mill in your area. It certainly is a spectacular find, and will no doubt rewrite the history books that deal with that subject a little bit for sure.--And we think the tide mills are a modern contrivance!

It does boggle your mind how the historic millwrighting methods of long ago were developed to such a high degree.

By this I mean even today with all our so called equipment and knowledge, and education, if anyone of us were asked to create such machine without the aid of any of our modern tools of the trade, and just given man power, and axes and a few other tools to come up with this finished tide mill, it would be an extraordinary effort.

I had similar requests to construct timberframe structures using only the tools that were availble at the period of construction, and I am going to tell you that every step had to be thought out carefully, and a so called (new\old) solution had to be sought after and found to carry on.

One thing that I will say about refraining from using modern methods, or cutting corners is that you arrive in the end with a finished product that looks very historically correct.

Thanks again Ken and I hope everyone enjoys

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/22/09 03:47 PM

Hello everyone, and just before I leave--


You were mentioning the preservative power of mud, well back a number of years ago I helped my father clean out a dug well of about 30 feet deep, as we removed the layers of silt, what came into view was an oak cribbing of about 8 feet in height , and I must say in perfect condition. This goes along somewhat with what you are referring to and I thought that it needed to be said now, mud will for a very long period preserve wood as long as the oxygen is not present for microbial action.

Also during my time in the restoration reconstruction at UCV my work was overseen by one of the best restoration architects in Canada, his name was Mr Peter Stokes. I asked him the following question in connection with a stone foundation wall needed to support one of my structures. The wall construction was stone and not a problem to reconstruct with the old lime mixtures but the base or the footing was more of a problem. I asked him what was used at that period of time . Hs reply was to lay down thick oak planks and then up goes the wall, which is what we did, and the building stands true today, I reconstructed many buildings using the same technique

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/09 12:15 AM

Hi everyone tonight;

Just to carry this thought a bit further, I wonder Ken what you were instructed in regards to footings for those older structures, and the original walls that you have examined, have they stood the test of time?

I was also wondering if the tidal mill was on a (floating) foundation?

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/09 08:15 AM

Hi Richard,

The only tide mill that I have examined in detail is at Elling near Southampton. This mill is fully operational and operates at different times in the day corresponding with tidal flows. The foundations are brick and doubtless these will have been modified or altered over the centuries. Mills frequently burn down and so surviving mills are generally a mix originating from different centuries.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/24/09 01:11 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks Ken for the reply, I know the reconstruction processes carry on and on, and only stops when technology pushes ahead with something new and the old structures just don't fit into the picture. In our world today the roll over of technology advances is forging ahead at a blurring speed, and even good old structures are dismantled to make way for new advances.

My son who dairy farms here in Ontario has a tough time justkeeping up from year to year with new equipment advances, and health rules which are continuously changing.

There are Tidal mills in operation here in North America but probably do not date back as far as in your area, I expect the technology came from Britain originally. Where there is a significant Tide such as along the coast area in Nova Scotia, harnessing the in and out flowing water is a smart idea.

At UCV our 3 mills are fed from an artificial lake of about 2 acres in size, that has no natural inflowing source. Their combined usage is about 6000 gals per minute, until the gristmill kicks in and runs on steam power, then the combined usage is about 4500 gals per minute.

The lake is replenished during the evening utilizing a 6 foot by 30 feet in length sewage screw pump revolving at 6 rpm. It can nearly keep up with the mill"s water consumption but not quite, it turns out about 4000 gals per minute, and is quite the machine. By that I mean that it sits on two massive bearings on at each end and on a slope of about 10 feet in 30 feet of run. The screw itself sets in a concrete trough and at no place touches the cement surface but runs close enough to cntain the water as it is forced up the incline. There is vertually no wear and can run continuosly with only a smallish electric motor driving it.

Well I must go for tonight hope you all enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/24/09 12:35 PM

Good morning, speaking of tides check this out. And as a note I believe the term is centripetal not centrifugal force.

http://www.quoddyloop.com/tides.htm

Here locally we can see tides in the the 25'-26' range in the upper part of the Bay of Fundy up to 50' changes.

There is a large push to bring tidal power back in regards of generating electricity. They are also looking at large windmills on floating platforms 20-30 miles of the coast. Which way is technology going? It is advancing Fast, but there is still a connection to the past.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/09 12:49 AM

Helloeveryone tonight:

Hi Tmbeal since you posted the last entry, and I am curious about the centrifugal and centripetal correction.

As Isee it centripetal is a violent force moving towards the centre, and centrifugal is the reverse, if I used an incorrect term I appologize.

I have witnessed the huge tides in the bay of fundy, and the reversal of the flow of I believe the St John river there, but I might be corrected,-- a great force if it could be harnessed.

With modern technology advancing like it is you would think that harnessing this tidal bore would be a piece of cake.

well here we are wandering off subject again I am goingto try and get things steered back on line.

I am going to put this subject out to see if any constructive thoughts will (centripetal) in.

--MULEY MILL-- STYLES OF SETTING UP THE LOG--

taking into account the old wooden saw frames have no modern conveniences to move the log around preparing it for each saw cut, do you think that you would flatten only one side and after rolling the log on its flat side then cut right straight across edging the boards as a final gesture.

Or would you square the log all around and then cut the square edged boards or planks edging all the boards from the squaring process in a final cut?

Which way would give you the better quality boards, and whichway would give you the wider common cut boards with the least waste

And finally which waywould be the fastest, and the most profitable, and best use of your water supply?

OK--lets hear what you have to say on this scenario that has just been passed along down the line from the lead sawyer who is trying to train you as a new recruit to operate this mill----good luck and I hope you make it

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/09 02:28 AM

Richard it was nothing you said, it was in the link I posted, to which I referred. I will look into it in more depth.

As for turning logs on the carriage after cutting the first face, what modern conveniences do you allude to?

I would say it depended on what the boarding was going to be used for.

Did they have an edger of some sort to trim the flitches with? They could have used some with live edges. This would have allowed faster sawing of the log, but in part, limited the use of the lumber.

I can almost see it as today using s4s 2x or finished boards and being left out to hang when we need to use rough cut lumber, it is less refined, some people just don't know what to do with rough lumber. Could the same be said for live edge flitches? You have more options with a live edge but one needs to handle it differently. It is even less refined.

I can see them doing it both ways.

Tim
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/09 10:11 AM

When I learned sawing logs (eastern white pine), it was from an old timer who was using a circular saw.

He would try and square up a cant and then cut boards so when they left the saw they were done.

But he would only saw to the heart/pith and then roll the log/cant over and saw in from the other side, thus reducing the stress in the log hopefully, evenly. And if the log did have stress in it, the last board, known as the dog board as it was the one dogged to the mill carriage, maybe be out of shape. Such as hour glass shaped, thin in the middle thick at the ends or the other way around. And if this board was out of shape it didn't matter much as it was the lowest grade board in the log due to the pith/heart being in it.

If the boards coming off the log did have some round edge to it, he wouldn't completely saw them off the log, he'd saw them until just about to drop off the log, and "gig" back and drag the board back to the log deck. I'd be standing at the tail end of the mill, and he'd grab the board and twist it up from the bottom, breaking the holding grain off the log, with my help. And we'd stack the round edge boards up on the log deck.

Then after he had finished sawing the second side of the cant and the carriage was empty, we'd stack the round edge boards up on carriage in line with the saw so that he could run them down past the saw and cut off the round edge on one side.

Then we'd flip them over and run the other side to a set width.

If he did, by accident, cut off a round edge board and it went down the conveyor belt to the board pit, the pit man would set it aside and it would be brought back to the log deck by the fork lift and re-processed to create square edged boards.

When I saw logs here at my mill, I try and square up a cant that will produce finished boards at the end of the cut. And following the cut to the pith/heart method and then flip over and come in from the other side, as I was taught.

But in doing this, you have to "read" the log and watch for stress. And if you see the boards shifting as you're sawing them you have to adjust your sawing plan based on what you see. Especially sawing hardwoods.

Hope this helps you.

Jim Rogers

Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/09 11:04 AM

Jim, this is what we do today, was a different approach applied in the muley days? I believe that is NH's question/quiz. I do think it was approached differently, how different I am not sure. We will see.

Centripetal force is the new term applied to what we used to call centrifugal force. Centrifugal force is not found in todays high school Physics book, it has been so since the late 1990's.

Centripetal force is as you said a force toward the center, and I like the "violent" you through in there. It is attached to the center by a string, chain or gravity, these are the connections to the center hence the force. This is Newtons second law F=ma. If this connection is severed or released the object will travel in a direction away from the center in a straight line, it will no longer circle the center, there for no centrifugal force exist, it is now just accelerating. The force is connected to the center, centripetal.

Feel free to clarify this if it needs be.

Tim
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/26/09 10:51 PM

Tim:
I'm not totally sure what a muley saw is or how it operates.

Jim

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/09 12:29 AM

hello everyone tonight:

Hello jim and Timbeal:

I knew you would try your best to come on with an answer Jim and thanks for the information and a look at your sawing technique.

Timbeal also thanks for coming on board and your remarks on the centifugal versus the centripetal forces. I had to look it up in the dictionary because I wasn't familiar with the term myself, but then again I am only an old farm boy with a one room school house education.

I am sorry Jim I mistakenly thought you were familiar with the workings of a Mulley Mill, to this end and for the sake of others that drop by I will quickly review the basic workings of such a mill.

I believe that everyone knows now that the Mulley Mills were basically driven by water, used a vertcal 6 foot blade, and in some cases 7 foot blades, these blades were stiff enough to withstand the upper thrust of a pitman revolving under the floor level, or in the area adjacent to the water barrel.

The saw frame was on the second floor and was usually mounted on wooden v shaped hardwood slides imbedded into the soft pine beams of the saw frame and slid back and forth passing by the blade on other v shaped hardwood blocks imbedded in the floor timbers.

I had mentioned that there were no modern methods used to roll the timbers on the saw frame, just cant hooks and pointed bars.

Once loaded on the saw frame the log is positioned in front of the blade in such a way that the best use of the log can be realized. The log is held in position for the cut by pounding in heavy cast iron dogs on each end of the log.

What I had eluded to was once a sufficient flat surface was cut on one face of the log, (usually 2 cuts). the log was rolled 1\4 turn on this face and then lined up for the second series of cuts.

Now the first 2 boards had both edges round and these boards were laid aside. The next set of boards all have one flat side, and if you cut right across the log all the boards would have one flat side and some of the centre boards would be quite wide and have some nice outside material in them. In a maximum centre cuts you could obtain a few 25 or 26 inch boards from a large pine log

This was the fastest way of cutting up a log with a Mulley saw, but edging the boards was tricky because there were no centre supports in a mulley saw frame only end supports, only one being moveable to accomodate different length of logs.

We normally squared our timbers getting as much good lumber from around the heart and as Jim mentioned as you neared the centre during the final cuts at times the final piece would be a little out of square or varied in dimension from end to end.

We used to vie with one another to see who could saw out the truest lumber and finish up with the centre cut true end to end, not an easy feat on these old saw frames, but quite possible if you took care in set up.

These blades had 2 inch teeth at about 2.25" spacings, and the teeth were bent slightly alternating to create a cerf.

The blade was also slightly out of perpendicular so that on the up stroke the teeth would lift away from the face of the cut, and gave the log enough room to move ahead before the blade descended for the next cut

I hope this helps explain the workings of a mulley mill, they could be very temperamental and each cut had to be monitored to be able to compensate its wanderings on each succeding cut.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/09 07:03 AM

Hi Richard,

What was the stroke length of the saw ?

Presumably the blade was always in tension - being pulled down into the kerf by the frame and not "thrust" or "pushing" as you mention above.

Do you know what tooth form was employed ?

Hi Jim,

I followed your proceedure but would the centre boards not potentially be the most valuable since these are the only true radial cut boards on a thru and thru cut ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/09 05:12 PM

Richard:
Thanks for the explanation of a Mulley Mill. I think around here they are called "sash saws" or is that something totally different?

I now understand what you're saying about how to edge boards.

And if that is the case about having only two log rests on your carriage, then I'd square up a cant so that when each board comes off, it is done.

Ken:
Yes some of the middle boards are radial cut, but it depends on the knot placement as to whether or not they are valuable.

It depends on the end user.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/09 11:32 AM

HI everyone tonight:

Nice to hear from you guys your questions help to expand on this conversation for the benefit of others.

Ken-JIm:

We have to clarify one technical aspect of this type of mill
A Mulley Mill operates with a free standing blade, which is an improvement on the earlier style of what was referred to as a sash saw, or a rather thinner blade which had to be restrained in a wooden sash, and the whole sash had to be lifted and lowered to move the blade up or down so the cutting action could be done.

The Mulley blade was about 3\16 " in thickness and as I mention earlier the teeth are about 2" in length at 2.25" spacings and the configuration is almost identical to a rip tooth on a small hand saw. The bottom edge of the tooth is almost square out from the blade (not quite) and sharpened square across and slightly beveled on the other remaining angled edge.

There were two methods of preparing the tooth for the cutting action the first was to slightly bend the tip of each alternating tooth slightly to create a kerf, or swedge the tooth tip to also create a kerf.

We always slightly bent the tooth tip which seemed to work well, so I cannot speak for the other method. I do feel though that it would work well used by an experienced mill operator.

Anoter thing that we always did was to peel a slight channel in the bark ahead of the blade on the initial cut to ensure that removal of any hidden debris was effected cleanly for the blade.

These blades dulled easily and if the teeth became damaged on one side the blade would then begin to wander and heating problems would develop and poor quality lumber with uneven thicknesses would be noticed

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/09 10:02 PM

NH:
Got any pictures of this you can post?

Jim

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/29/09 12:06 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Jim: Look back in earlier posts, you will find views of the water barrel being restored, also you will see views of the 12" diameter oak shaft being turned and prepared for the insertion and the eventual leading in of the cast iron crank on the pitman end, as well as the cast iron bearing on the running ends of the shaft.

You will also see the 2 large cast iron disks that have the buckets casted into them and that also are mounted on turnings on the shaft, one on each side of the water barrel (box). These cast disks are what give propulsion to the shaft as the water hits them from inside the pressurized box during start up.

You will also see views of the saw blade in the sawing area, and the large 20 foot saw frame with the (2) bunks , one solidly mounted and the other that can slide along on the frame to accomodate different length of logs.

These pictures should be rather close to the beginning of this thread, but not right at the beginning.

Ken: The crank has an offset of 9" giving the saw an 18" stroke. Now on large logs (say logs over 18" and up to 36") during the cutting process the saw dust has to work its way out from along side of the blade and in the cavities between the teeth, so on large cuts you need to take your time to allow this to take place.

I hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/09 10:51 PM

i do enjoy it! thanks

here's one for you northern hewer: i mentioned a finish-canadian style of hewing, standing on the log. it's not a replacement for standing beside, but sometimes it's a way to zing through the wood. and you get the balance game.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/09 01:49 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks to everyone for all the recent posts and conversation, I have once again been experiencing log in problems but tonight it seems to be working well.

Tovio thanks for the hewing video it verifies what others have told me in reference to the hewing style in that part of the world.

I would not advise anyone to try that style without good instructions though because even a seasoned pro like myself would consider it risky.

It is nice though to see it being practised via the safe medium of the computer screen.

The comments on the quality of sawn boards using various methods of log set up is interesting.

I would just like to comment that in the squaring up process there is always waney edged boards, and I am not so certain that time was taken to cut the edges square using the muley blade,s equipment, I rather think that the waney boards were just taken back to the farm and used up.

Well best of the season to everyone, and if all of you have enjoyed this chatting site please let me know by signing in and posting what subjects you liked the best.

I would really like to hear from you

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/10/09 12:04 AM

it looks dangerous doesn't it? balance is like that.

actually it works out pretty good- an instance where the danger is so immediately present that the danger stays in consciousness and you tend not to cut your toes off.

the balance game is only a test on the 4" faces- otherwise it's shuffle shuffle backwards- don't fall off the back of the log though!

zing zing zing and cut where you see

Posted By: Don P

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/10/09 01:43 AM

There might be something to that toivo. I've never tried it but have watched an old tiehack use that technique. I don't use an adze much and keep meaning to get some shinguards but the same focus has worked so far. The tiehack did pull up his pants leg and showed me a terrible adze scar though.
NH,
I didn't want you to think we were ignoring your request. I imagine others are in the same quandry as me, just can't think of where to start, this entire thread has been a pleasure. Best of the season to all!
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/10/09 12:04 PM

I think, if you need shin guards while adzing you may be using the wrong technique. But there is nothing wrong with a bit of insurance.

Tim
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/11/09 12:37 AM

don't people adze between their feet? how would you hit your legs?

i actually feel more comfortable hewing from above than the side- the thing is if the axe glances it moves away from you. standing beside it's coming towards your thigh. the danger is toes with narrow widths. but as per the barefoot japanese hewer (i think it's earlier in this thread -massive and still good!) with a decent size timber it's easy to tuck your toes in. no real danger in dabbing off the log if the worksite is clear.

yes Don- to my understanding toothis was the way that railway ties got done up here. it's about getting it done- i love non-standardized methods. so many ways.
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/11/09 04:15 AM

Nope -

If I'm adzing something I'm standing on ( and that, for me, might be half the time I'm swinging one, I use it as a carpenters tool, to bring small sections to a needed dimension,and never to dress timber to some kinda fakey desired texture - Hewing is an ax thing ) I'm aiming under my foot, and my toes and the handle are the brakes.

Wild overswings are almost impossible, and I've never had a mishap - Also this is not my own thing, not sure where I picked this up, but I am sure it is (or maybe was) an accepted norm.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/12/09 01:24 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

I agree immensly that using the proper technique the adze will not hit high enough to injure the shins ---but--watch your ankles

My father made a slip and the corner of the adze penetrated through his leather boot and severed the tendon on his ankle, he was one year learning to walk again.

When I told him that I was going to be using the adze in my restoration work , he cautioned me to be very careful and not work when your arms are beginning to tire because it is at that time that accidents can happen.

I always practiced real caution and took short breaks when I felt that my concentration was begining to wane.

I have did alot of hewing and adzing over my career and really had only one scare and that was when I was creating a watering trough using a gutter adze. It happened very quickly as accidents usually do, I slipped and fell forward and the adze handle went down under me turning the blade of the adze upwards, my knee just missed the blade, I was some shook up though and thanked the one above who must have been looking over me.

Thanks to all of you for coming in on this thread it makes for a very interesting and I hope educational read for those that come our way.

As we get closer to the holidays I again would like to say that commentatng on this thread has been one of the greatest highlights of my computing career which by some standards I suppose has not been too lengthy.

Happy holidays to everyone

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/31/09 10:55 PM

i'm with you Will on resurfacing sawn timbers. that said, it's nice to put an adze over an axe-hewn face for a last pass, that or a slick, mostly to clean up any scoring marks, but also just to have a last go over. and they're both light tools, so it's a pleasant change of pace for the body.
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/31/09 11:26 PM

also i love the idea that's been tossed around of cleaning up faces with a scrub plane. any historical precedents for such a process on hewn timbers NH?
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/01/10 12:51 AM

I was taught to brace the handle of the adze against my leg. This really reduces the chance of an injury. I've seen that technique in an old Audels book from the '20's.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/02/10 01:02 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

And welcome to 2010--it just seems like yesterday that we were waiting for the world to collapse when the clock ticked into the 21st century--it seemed that no one knew what was going to happen, but low and behold here we are just chopping away

Back to business--well Dave you are righton line I always braced my one arm against my leg without a doubt this steadied my hand and made adzing much safer

The best of the new year to everyone

I will be posting on the Tools for sale forum once again a new updated version of my training dvd', should anyone be interested check it out in a couple of days.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/03/10 01:17 AM

Hi Tovio:

Well hello again everyone, and nice question Tovio:

If you have been following my thread you probably know that I have examined many historic frames in this area, and I can only speak for this general area, one that was the settling ground for approx 12000 United Empire Loyalists and their families starting about 1784.

I personlly never noticed any plane tell tale marks having been used on outbuildings or barns, but having said that the homes with exposed beam ceilings, and the floor boards above were planed by hand to create a lovely finish appearance when you glanced up

The beams were usually beaded by hand on their corners after the planning process this again added a special touch. I have restored period homes using a hand beading plane and I must say the finished product was worth the effort--try it don't take my word just use a small timber to work on to get the feel.

The hand held router will not put the bead directly on the corner like say a Stanley beading plane will

Any comments on this subject?

NH
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/10 10:29 PM

Hello NH and All;

I wanted to comment on the adz techniques. From what I have read, adzs were swung a variety of ways. Sometimes coming up under the foot, sometimes between the feet, and I have seen a photo of a Japanese temple builder working in Hawaii with one foot on the ground, the other on the piece "chipping" diagionally. As Will said, hewing is for axes, "chipping" is for adzs. I have read accounts of adzs being nicknamed "the devil's shin hoe" and "Devil's shin eater" indicating they were sometimes used at shin height. Shipbuilder's adzs are often lighter and may have shorter handles since they were sometimes used overhead or on the sides of a ship. Also, there is such a thing as a butchering adz for processing meat.

Adzs are ancient tools and one of the very early spellings of adz is nads and nadge, in addition to many phonetic variations of adz and addice.

Salaman's Dictionary of Tools has illustrations of over thirty types of hand and foot adzs and other references in addition to the illustrations, but does not include any types of ancient adzs made of stone.

Take care;
Jim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/07/10 01:23 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

On this subject of technique used in the adzing process, in my opinion and my experiences every different finish that presented itself required a different posture in order to not only do the job but to do it safely.

finishing the surface of a square timber was entirely different from adzing the surface of a newly laid floor of uneven boards. creating a seating on a timberframe again meant that the user of the adze had to get really down to work andremove paper thin shavings. As I stated in a previous post creating a gutter or a trough with a gutter adze meant that the adze had to be used differently. The barrel maker working with his specialty adze inside a curved surface, and the list goes on---

In my opinion once one has achieved a fair knowledge of the use of any tool be it an adze , broadaxe, slick, even a handsaw, one should be able to handle a new situation should it confront you, eventho you may not have actually had the opportunity to have did it at a prior time.

I can remeber saying to my father as I was learning the trade many years ago--"what if I have never done it before"--he quietly said--"you will have enough experience and knowledge to figure it out, do not worry", he also said during this conversation "when a real construction or other problem confronts you, just think very deeply about it and the answer will present itself--be careful"

I can honestly say that I never ran up against any problem that a solution would not come, and getting back to the adzing part of this conversation, many times I was confronted with historic restoration finishing problems that involved adzing, and had to be solved on site, it was at this time that I remembered my father's words--think, work and be careful.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/10 01:49 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Well I thought today is a good day to clean up the stored tools so I got out my broadaxe(s) and dusted them off, sprayed a little WD40 on the metal surfaces and with a very fine emery paper worked the rust remover into the surface of the steel until the surface looked real good, then I wiped off the resulting liquid with a a clean paper towel. I then applied a little machine oil and wiped the surfaces down.

I then took a fine sharpening stone and touched up the cutting edges, until they would shave my arm--they are ready for business!

I am heading back into the bush to pull out some spruce timbers that will become the ceiling supports for my son's country home that he is constructing. They will be 6" by 8" by 16 feet, and will carry the floor for the second storey. The flooring will be 1".5" by 10" pine grove and tongue, and adzed on the bottom surface and be open from below. I am intending to bead the bottom corners of the timbers with a hand beading plane, leaving the surface to show the hewing process.

The flooring will be nailed down with 3" square cut nails which will be set just flush with the top surface of the floor.

This should give me alittle workout and bring my (70) hewing skills back up to an acceptable level.

Now I have to rest for the work ahead.

The best of the day to everyone

If Rob Leslie is passing by this site would he contact me Please by Email--thanks



NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/29/10 02:06 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Well the weather deteriorated here so I decided to stay in the shop and turn out a few chisel handles, they were needed to replace some that have become split somewhat and ratty looking.

I think that I will turn out 4 slick handles, while I have the lathe up and running, to fill an order for a lad out in Tennesse, These will be 22,24,26,28inches long and will have the same lines as an 1840 one that I have in my collection, he has asked them to be from black walnut, and to be glass finished with a dark antique stain and boiled linseed rubbings on the surface

This will be an enjoyable order to fill turning out slick handles is not something that one does on a regular basis.

I will try and post some pictures of them when I finish and before shipment for those of you that might be interested

Have a good evening

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/10 02:26 AM

Hi everyone tonight

While I am working on handles and |I| suppose generating some interest in handles in general and how they are created I might say that putting the curve in handles can be accomplished in many different ways

I generally look for a curved piece of rough stock, but for some this is not an option so i would like to share this small piece of additional commentary in regards to creating say a curved broadaxe handle

The early generations would never consider buying even a regular axe handle but rather create their own with the special curves and sweeps that were passed down for generations, and this would probably be a pattern that hung in the corner of the driveshed

In the case of broadaxe handles creating from a pattern would be the norm.

A rough blank slightly larger than the finished handle would be cut from a good straight grained plank and soaked in boiling water for maybe an hour or so to soften the wood fibres

The rough warm blank would then be secured in such a way (usually close to the end that enters the eye) so that as force was exerted on the opposite extreme end of the blank (usually using a rope twisted) it would create a curve in the handle to the offset that one usually worked with in most cases 3" off the flat of the handle. It is usual to create an additional .5" offset to allow for spring back when the rope is released in a month or so.

Properly done this curved handle will retain its curve and be really strong,

Many curved handles were made like this one that comes to mind is scythe handles with their many curves.

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/10 01:25 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Just as a further note to handle making I believe that adze handles are sort of unique they were usually not bent artificially but rather fashioned from a good stout straight grained plank of a wood of one's liking, I really like wild cherry if I can get it, and especially if it growns in an environment that has made it work to survive, it gets tough like people I suppose in a similar environment

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/10 02:33 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Further to my previous posts on curved axe handles, using a piece of green wood would also be an option for the curving process should that type of handle be needed and soaking in hot water is also not an option

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/10 01:49 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Sorry for the hiatus but I have been away from the cold weather for a few weeks, I appreciate the interest that the remarks on this site seem to generate, and maybe we can generate a few more in the weeks to come.

As an old woodsman commented in a northern lumber camp up around Perth Ontario--

"In the crisp winter air, many choppers moved among the trees, working in pairs there was a continuous sound of the large pines falling ripping and tearing their way to the earth, with a final thud as they came to rest"
"And then those with the large flat hewing axes moved through each with a helper to cut the even notches along their lengths some as long as 120 feet"
"those large pine giants slowly began to loose their coats of bark and exposed their inward white blemish free flesh, the song rang true as the choppers sang-"to England with our signature carved in each piece"

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/10 03:15 AM

england gets our woodchips. we keep the timbers and exploit seedlings sheltered away as seeds in ships full of sawdust, warming and ready to sprout in the spring times of somewhere overseas. no offense but the trees stay at home.


there are a bunch of good red pines up the road on an MTO powerline right of way, though contested by the adjacent property owner. apparently he's a taxidermist, and if i can convince him, the trees are mine to cut. it's that time of the year when it's nice again to work in the bush.

spring is coming!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/10 02:14 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Thanks for coming on board Tovio I thought that everyone had deserted me it has been a while since anyone came on board with a comment,

I was just wondering if any of you still think that it pays to get out your own logs and have them milled over just going out and buying the lumber. Around here the going cost of band mills is $60 Hr., and adding that to your time and fuel costs is there anything left to fight over?

I would really like to hear your comments, I think that this subject needs some discussion

NH

Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/10 08:20 AM

Hi NH,

Like Toivo I have spent this last week in the woodland cutting a half kilometer's worth of 10 years regrowth on a pollarded hazel hedge. This has yielded hundreds of beatifully straight and clear stems that would be ideal for making thatching spars, liggers etc but I fear that most of this will simply be left in the woodland to rot down due to the difficulties of marketing same. This is a big problem for woodlot owners in England and has come about due to the gradual fragmentation in the woodland management and produce useage chain. Instead of the primary use of woodland being for timber production this now seems to be very much more perceived to be a visual amenity and nature conservation areas for bobble hatted hikers to tramp through to satisfy their wanderlust.

Whilst cutting my hedge I have been eyeing up a block of 50 year old Douglas Fir, underplanted western red cedar, and have been toying with clear felling this block. It would be so much better if I could fell and convert on the spot but then we are back to the same dilemma as the hazel - without a predetermined use or buyer for same agreed then this would potentially just rot away as well. Having cut and converted logs then these would need to be moved to a stack to allow for replanting the cut over block. Every operation in the woodland requires investment of either time or money and generally both so it can be cheaper just to do nothing and allow the timber to keep growing.

What I really need is a local Jack Sobon type who would be happy to come and cut / hew or mobile mill convert wood for free, which he or she could keep thereby allowing me to pursue my woodlot management objectives of returning this back to the growth of native deciduous trees (oak, ash, cherry, etc.)

This would therefore be a win win scenario for both of us but I doubt that it will ever happen.

Ideas please ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/10 02:25 PM

My first idea would be to ask Jack if he'd be interested......:)

But you could call Woodmizer sawmill company and ask them for a list of all sawyers in your country and then ask them (the sawyers from the list) if they have anyone interested in your logs for timber.... you may just find someone who will do what you want.....Woodmizer does have a "find a sawyer" option on their phone system, but I'm not sure if it applies to other countries....I could call them and ask for you....
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/10 05:26 PM

Hi Jim,

Good idea. I will follow up on that suggestion.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/10 01:28 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Thanks to everyone for coming on line and the interesting line of the thread, I suppose it is similar to the line that I put forward about whether it still is feasible to cut your own logs and mill versus just going and buying the dimension lumber at the store.

Cutting a thousand feet of logs will take an average day for two people along with a tractor, wagons,saw, fuel, time, and then another day to truck it to the mill, your time, fuel, and cost of milling at $60 Hr. I should add in there the repairs to the saw, files, fuel,, and unexpected breakdowns, and wear and tear on the old body.

Like Ken what do you do with the woodlot that you are paying taxes on, just to see it grow?--The tax man likes to charge you for this luxurious product that really is costing you money.

This woodlot is housing the wild animals like deer, coyotes, moose bear, birds, and many other of the government's so called wild inhabitants, and also \mr gov't will tell you that it is wet land, and you shouldn't disturb it by cutting, draining, or otherwise.

The way I see it maybe we should be paid to take care of it rather than pay taxes, and maybe we should be able to have access to a certain amount of lumber in lieu of cutting and managing the acreage that we can't disturb in any way for fear of offending those that make their home there.

Around here we have these hordes of wild geese that drop in twice each year to fill their bellies on our crops , as well as the deer that freely tramp through and eat the crops as they try and grow each season.

I really feel that things are alittle out of whack and not getting any better, but maybe I shouldn't complain, hydro is going up, gas is $1.00 litre, the cost of getting a good education is about $50,000, and there is no good permanent jobs for our youg people after they are educated.

Oh yes I should say they are making the cars more efficient, but they are getting bigger with bigger motors and in the end you get about the same mileage,

funny world isn't it but i promise not to stray so far away from hewing , but then I can't get in the bush without disturbing those that live there and may have to do it at night so no one sees me cut a tree down, working in the dark without lights is dangerous,and anyone that hears that I am cutting trees at night might think that I am just alittle crazy.

I used to think that I own my home because I made payments for 25 years-- but only if I pay the taxes--in reality I don't own anything, just manage it

Doggone it though I still love hewing, and creating things from that old bushlot eventhough I have to be careful not to offend anyone or anything

NH

Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/10 08:31 AM

Hi Richard,

One benefit that I do enjoy here in England is that I do not have to pay any taxes on ownership of my woodlot. I do however need to pay a hefty chunk of money each year in public liability insurance just incase a ton of beech tree comes down on a trespasser.

Sometimes trees do need to be cut. Its a use it or loose situation and so providing this is done in a thoughtful and sustainable fashion then one should be prepared to take the long term view. My woodlot was last cut over in any serious kind of way by Canadian Lumber Jills towards the end of the last war and the evidence for this can still be read in the woodland archeaology. Time for another cut. I have been investigating the possibility of buying a Lucas mill so that I can take this right to the felled tree. Anybody ever used one of these ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/10 11:54 AM

For what it is worth, Allodial Title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

Just don't die. And it probably can't be purchased with debt notes.

Ken, how about hiring some youths to hew? It would keep them busy and out of trouble. Pit saw? Sell it as historic material/fabric. Possible marketing ploy.

I had to look "ploy" up, I think it fits well.

Tim
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/10 10:13 PM

Hi Tim,

I spent today in the woodland getting wet but came away very satisfied after completing my 10 year hedge cut.

I wish that I could find some young (or old) hewers, but how to do that ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/10 11:45 PM

It's hard to make it pay even when you own the bandsaw NH. Forget it at $60/hr.
my 2cents...
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/10 01:38 AM

I would be lost without my mill......a couple more pennies. I don't charge by the hour. I also don't directly try to make a living with just the mill.

Keep it as small scale as you can or go for the big times, I think the middle ground is the toughest area to reside in.

Ken, I don't live in your environment, but I do offer it as a serious consideration.

Tim
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/10 09:36 AM

Hi Tim, Mark & Richard,

I do recall that someone asked Jack Sobon the easiest way to hew logs and Jack's answer was to pay someone else $10/hr to do this for you.

On a more serious note Jack's argument might still hold true even if the $/hr has changed more than just a bit. A tree standing in the woodland is really worth nothing until one starts to invest time and money into its transformation into a finished woodland product (felling / conversion/ extraction). Hence if the cost of the log is discounted and the cost of hewing becomes the main investment to produce a finished beam then adopting this method would also potentially help to reduce extraction costs and so maybe this approach might still hold true today on a small, local, sustainable economy basis.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/13/10 11:14 AM

Ken, Jacks hewing suggestion rest in the length of the timber, long stock was more economical to hew than saw if it was 18' or longer, and a 8x8 and up.

Around here most folks have ATVs to recreate with. They also can be used to extract timber with by adding an arch which is towed behind. There is other small scale logging equipment available but it is cost prohibitive.

If you are going to use human power to hew than a logical next would be animal power, if it is available.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/10 12:08 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Just to expand this topic out a little lets do a hypothetical problem that needs solving,

Person "a" needs a 10"square hewn log 25 feet long out of white ash

Person "a" has the standing tree that fills the bill in his bushlot

He has the ability to cut and haul out the tree with a minimal investment using his saw that he cuts his firewood with and a good heavy team of work horses just waiting to get a little exercise.

Now the tree is out in the open area ready to begin its reduction into a hewn timber.

From my experience the first side will take the best part of 6 hours to flatten, the second side will take 5 hours, and the other 2 sides will take 3 and 2 hours respectfully.

This makes a total of 16 hours which is I believe a realistic timeframe for a tree of this size and length, would anyone like to comment on this time analysis please feel free to do so.

I suspect that you will have to pay more than minimum wages for this type of skilled worker, so in this regard I would say at least $25 hr. or $400.00 for wages to hew the timber.

My question to you all would it be advantageous to precut the timber oversize and hew the final finish, and how much of a savings could be realized, or would it cost more in the end

NH
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/10 02:41 AM

I would charge .35/bd.ft to mill white ash
so,
10x10x25/12=208 board feet @ .35 = $72.80

If you leave it slightly oversized and hew 1/4, I think you would be more like 1 hr per side, or approx $100 to hew.
PLUS you would have the white ash side cuts, worth possibly enough to pay for the sawmill and the hewer.
AND the hewer might also give you a hearty thanks, after all we are talking white ash here...
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/10 12:26 PM

I see this in two different avenues.

First If you don't have a saw mill and want a timber then you will throw the extra boarding and price / bf out the window, that is not the goal, the timber is and how do you achieve that by the simplest means, I should say lowest cost? You already have the timber, no cost there. No cash outlay.

The second is along Marks lay lines, I would have to add the cost of the log into the equation though. The butt end of the log would fetch a higher price so why use it as a timber at all. So, you would have to be brave and stick $1.00/bf to it, there is $208 before you even start. Hewing may take some practice but I don't see you having to pay $25, I would put $10-15 on it, I will go the low road=$160 for a cost of $368. Now feed the horse, I round the total to $400. I don't buy hard wood timber does anyone know the going price for ash timber?

In addition why even hew it after it is sawn? Doing that has always.. not done much for me. You can tell when it was sawn and then hewn, there is that extra bit of perfection that doesn't quite make it actual.

You would only be adding to the cost of the timber by hewing it after it was sawn. Why would you do that? It would cost more in the end.

I would not saw a 25' timber exchanged for the edgings. Flat grain, sappy, short, tapered, narrow boards.....and hew a finish it on top of that?

Tim

Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/10 01:33 AM

I don't mind hewing on a sawn surface, I think the key to getting it to look "right" is in the scoring.

going price for ash around here is probably 1.00-1.50 bd/ft.

I wouldn't hew for 15/hr unless it was my own stuff.

The outside cuts on a bigger ash log are good stuff in my books, they will cup, but just use them in narrow widths, good handle wood... should be clear of knots.

btw, I think your time analysis on hewing a big ash from the round is pretty good. I had to hew a bunch of 24 ft 6x12 oak joists from the round some years ago, and the time was quite similar. Such a relief to get around to that last side on the big hardwoods.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/10 01:58 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

It really isn't that simple is it many things go into the final answer.

Truly I think that you both are right looking at it from each perspective, and some of the answers in life are very similar but not simple at times to figure out.

I did specify that the final timber had to have a hand hewn surface, so in the final analysis the cost would have to reflect the cost of putting that finish on the timber.

You are very right Timbeal the timber will look unnaturally true and square when sawn and then a hewn finish applied, I have had to wrestle with such senarios throughout my career in the restoration field.

Listening at times to many talk about producing frames for customers I suspect the short cut has been taken many times for cost's sake, but for true work nothing beats the fully hewn timber which gives that unmistaken look that carries the little flaws, twists, and uneven measurements.

When you really examine the input from both of you guys there really isn't much difference in cost, there is alot of difference in the amount of work, and for my money I will go the way of fully hewing the timber, laying it up to cure shielding it from unaturally drying currents of air and the sun of course.

Around here you cannot obtain someone that wants or is able to swing an axe easily, not impossible, but it will cost more than minimum wages which is $11 \hr, maybe $20/hr would attract someone to do alittle physical work

Thanks for coming on board both of you that is what makes this chat room special, and maybe informative for those looking in.

NH
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/10 10:50 PM

I wish I was a little closer to your location NH, I would come over and do some 20/hr hewing......
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/10 01:34 AM

hello everyone tonight:

For a new line of thought in regards to learning an old craft, I would like to look at how many of us acquired the skills that enabled us to use the historic Broadaxe and of course the other many points of necessary skills like setting up and lining prior to hewing.

For starters I was fortunate to have been taught by my father, who in turn had been taught by his father who had actually lived and grew up at the time that hewing was needed to construct timberframed buildings. I was taught of course to use the style that my family used, and many other aspects that went along with the hewing process, I related in previous postings that I also had the opportunity to research my hewing methods as a backup to presenting it in as true a fashion as possible to the general public for a period of approx 30 years.


I realize that this is very seldom the case and many that now hew acquired the historic methods in many ways very much unlike the way that I did.

I would like to take this opportunity to ask those that have these special skills to come on board and let those that want dearly to learn to Hew timber and use their Broadaxe an insight into a way of acquiring these skills.

How many of you out there just learned by trial and error?
How many studied and researched before attempting to Hew?
How many took an historic course before embarking out with your axe?
How many like myself had the family background training to help them along?
NH







I was just wondering
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/10 03:08 AM

My first exposure to hewing was reading Eric Sloane books. My first attempt I used a coopers broad axe. It worked, but the axe wasn't heavy enough. I then was shown how to do it with the right tools in the Sobon/Carlon workshop at Hancock in 2006.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/10 02:50 PM

Hello everyone tonight:

Hi Dave:

Thanks for joining this discussion and your comments on how you acquired your skills, I am sure that it will guide others in the right track.

I am sure that there are others that would like to join in please do so, and it matters not whether you had a success looking for help,I think that your story/journey in your quest for instruction is what many really need to hear.

We will wait patiently for others to join in.

It would be interesting to find out how others besides myself who have tried to help and pass along the special skills learned their knowledge in this field.



Nh
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/10 05:53 AM

I learned to hew from Joe Erikson, who I beleive came to Canada to dodge the Viet Nam draft. He had worked in some museum in the USA and was working on a "strictly cash" basis at the time.
I found Joe by accident, my girlfriend at the time had taken an introduction to the trades course and she got placed with Joe afterward for two weeks. I got pulled out to the job site after a couple of days and Joe and I ended up working together for a couple of years.
The method Joe taught me was what he called "yard hewing" with the log at hip hieght and a short handled broadaxe. He would often finish up after hewing with a couple of handplanes and make a very nice looking log.
I remember once someone at a job asked Joe what the tolerance was for cutting stuff at one of our job sites
Joe said "zero".
Posted By: frwinks

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/10 02:40 PM

And since Mark taught me how to hew, I too hew @ the hip using a short European goosewing axe
Thanks to Joe, who "showed me the way", I use the plane a lot in my work, and can turn an "out of tolerance" hewed stick into a very decent looking piece grin


Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/10 11:47 PM

I am still learning. I have picked info from a number of sources, books, people, observing and trial and error.

Today I worked a 25' pine log, 6"x7". I do not hew on a regular basis. For times, in line with NH's previous time post, I have 5 hours total in it, it is almost done. I left the last 8' on the end to video, maybe. I noticed that as I progressed around the log the times got longer, I was pooped out. A part of that time was snapping lines and such, a little rest too. I tired four different axes and my one felling axe for a total of 5 axes. Single bevel, double, long handle short handle, I even docked the handle on my newest axe, which I acquired at the geometrics workshop for $35. This new axe is the heaviest but removes the most wood the quickest, it takes it out of me though.

I would really choose the double bevel Gransfors axe as a favorite, but the stock handle is not in alignment with the blade, it bends slightly into the work making it nearly unusable. I shaved the handle down thinner a while back but it's just not enough. I fall back on my home made axe, a kent style which I reshaped, but I think it has too much scoop in the blade, but is really not too bad. It is nice and light. If I was to hew on a regular basis I would rehandle the Gransfors axe. A long handled and short handle version would do all I would need.

I also tired the blubber axe, as Jack Sobon called it I asked his opinion at the geo workshop. I posted a picture a while back some where here on the forum. I would say it could have been used for finishing timber, it leaves a flat surface, no scoops. It still leaves me wondering.

I have not tried hewing at an elevated height. There are a number of methods and combinations from axe type to styles of hewing all with variations.

Tim

Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/23/10 12:30 AM

How many people have looked at old timbers to see where the hewer was standing? Any timbers I have looked at, the hewer was working over the top of the timber, working backwards. I'm not saying any one is right or wrong, just looking to see if there are regional variations.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/23/10 02:34 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks to you guys for relating how you acquired your techniques,
I am sure that many looking in are enjoying the chat.

I for one have never tried the hip height technique, with the short handled broadaxe, but I enjoy watching and looking at the photos above.

Dave: I have spent many hours examining the finish on timber of period structures in order to try and produce timbers with similar finishes--not easy to do, and I might say at times the finish that I had to produce sort of went against the grain, because the original timbers were not finished in the best manner, I am sure that many different people worked on the same frame, one in particular was a church frame that I examined, it appeared to me that the whole congregation worked producing the frame timbers. Some were real nice and others looked like beavers chewed on them.

One thing for certain that frame stood for over 100 years and would still be standing if the church itself had not folded.

As far as stradling the timber while trying to hew, in my opinion is not practical nor safe, but then this is only my opinion, but an opinion based on experience in the hewing field. People will try and work in many different ways, for better or worse, I do strive to try and show a style that I know for certain was practised, and to this end standing beside the log while hewing is a style portrayed in sketchings and tapestries, and paintings, and I might say taught to me through family history.

A while back on this thread there were posted pictures of a hewer working while standing on top of the work piece, this is definitely a style that would need to be taught by a very experienced tradesman or teacher for sure on account of the blade passing close to the hewer's feet.

Keep the comments coming

NH





Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/10 01:00 AM

I hew with one knee on top of the log, which is placed on a low hewing setup. The axe is going in a downward stroke, not towards the hewer. Quite safe. The axe is not swung wildly anyway.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/10 11:10 AM

Another aspect I used, was selecting the right tree for the job. I had two choices, I chose the smaller one, with the free board footage.

Tim
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/27/10 03:40 AM

for sure Timbeal- or maybe even the other way around, and the tree selects the project. enough hewing to get to square at the joinery, and to heartwood most other places, and that's the dimension.

one thing i've found is those rubber gloves make holding the axe less work. they're grippy. staying relaxed and working with a good day long rhythm also helps. in log building we had 6-pack days- one man- six logs scribed. the chainsaw allowed for a more mechanical, steady day. with hewing it's more like 1 timber hewed and then on to some other kind of lighter work.

Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/27/10 06:47 AM

Hi Toivo,

Do you mean those knitted gloves that fit either hand and are coated with squiggles of a glue / rubbery like substance ? If yes I agree with you and have recently taken to using those to swing the axe as well.

REgards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/10 01:36 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Hewing timbers as accurately as possible is quite a challenge, but to also execute the work as it progresses using period tools and methods is another thing entirely.

It always amazed me that the final product usually reflected all those hours of hard work, and then the fun began when the freshly hewn timber was moved to the framing area, and the pressure mounted because each move had to be very accurate because an inaccurate measurement could completely ruin a 30 foot 12 by 12 with many hours of work, especially if it was accidently cut even an inch too short, and it being a connecting girt in one of the frameworks.

We did use measuring poles for all layouts of varying lengths, multiples of which cold be used to come up with any measurement, we found this way of measurement superior in everyway to modern methods to reconstruct old frames.

It was quite interesting because real accurate overall measurements did not really matter, what really mattered was that all the measurements were the same, (if you all are following along on this line of thought)

these measuring poles could vary from accurate measurements by say fractions of an inch due to shrinkage,humidity, or wear, but generally speaking the emerging structure would be quite accurate, and fall in line with some of the odd measurements that the old structures exhibited

HOPE YOU ENJOY

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/10 12:17 PM

That same concept was use in the Geometric work shop with Laurie Smith. Trammel points, or large dividers used to apply lengths and more. A simple stick with pointed nails could be used to walk off long lengths. Or the dividers used to walk off a shorter distance on the rod which could be applied to gain all the repeated sized through out the frame.

In the latest issue of Timber Framing I enjoyed Laurie's article on useful geometries for carpenters. I liked Fig. 6. specifically for more accurately drawn 3 circle daisy wheel, faster, simpler, and more accurate. The ogival arches was a treat as well.

If I don't use a method, learned, I tend to loose the connection. I recently used a long measuring pole or radius to generate the curves cut into the post on my own project, which is based on a two circle layout. I used three methods to achieve the overall building, rods/diivders, tape measure and chance.

Tim
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/10 02:01 AM

measuring sticks- i like the idea for late afternoon joinery.

Ken- the gloves i've been using are knit with a rubberized palm. there are winter and lighter versions. i prefer them to barehand for tool response. i feel more connected.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/30/10 01:35 AM

|Hello everyone tonight:

Great responses

The measuring poles that we used were made from 1" square oak of varying lengths some of them were especially made for the different runs of the braces that usually varied even within the same framework.

The use of measuring poles ensured that repetitive measurements would be of a standard length and not vary, and minimized measuring mistakes that might be the case using a modern tape measure.

One of the neat pluses for using measuring poles was the ability to tick off say the mortise placement positions of joist/stud housings along the flat surface of the measuring poles, these little ticks would always be referred to as the work progressed and transferred to the timber surface for the work to begin. We would even make notations by the ticks as a reference to what they stood for

Three of the measuring poles would be of 6', 8' and 10' lengths that were quite handy for squaring up frameworks when the trial fitting began.

The use of measuring poles could be used by those that could not read, but could produce good frameworks, one of these old time framers just happened to be my grandfather who could not read or write but could hew and frame up buildings, (he could also figure money and what things were worth).

These measuring poles were metal tipped to take wear, they were square ended and fitted nice and neat on the pole ends and were drew out to a sharp edge.

Hope you enjoy

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/10/10 12:04 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

While we are discussing layout techniques using rough hewn timber, and measuring poles to locate accurate locations for seatings and other types of points of interest such as exact final lengths, I always used and was taught to use the 36" Blind Man's rule. This folding wooden ruler was used to locate measurements from 0 to 36", and in many cases the main length of runs for barn braces came in at 36". In this case you could use a 36" measuring pole or the 36" Blind Man's rule whichever you preferred.

The technique that I used for layout usually involved placing a scratch awl at one point and then sliding the measuring pole against it or the Blind Man's rule which ever you preferred, and left it there until all measurements were done and checked for accuracy.


NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/28/10 12:19 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Exact measurements---this is a topic that needs alittle more scruttiny---

Given a pile of rough hewn timbers for (a three bay barn) of varying sizes both cross sectional, twisted and bowed, and with the measuring and cutting tools available or known of during the early 18th century, which ones would you select or need to carryout the precise layout of all the mortise's and tenons and all other construction jobs dealing with this structure.

List the contents that would be in the timberframer's box(s) if he had more than one box which he no doubt did, don't feel shy lets get the list started

It would be nice also to list the direction you would give to your 2 helpers on the first day of the work (these are going to be hired hands) and will be standing there ready to go to work and will want to know what the work hours are going to be and of course the wages.

Please remember that the owner wants a completed building before he pays you, and what price would you place on the document and maybe your demands as far as payment is concerned.

He is supplying all the timbers, sawn materials, shingles, nails and hardware items

Lets have fun you modern experienced and not so experienced timberframers--lets look back in time------

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/28/10 01:35 AM

I'm not that familiar with the old ways but, this summer I just did the layout on a 3 bay barn with two carpenters so lets give it a shot.

I don't know much about foundations of the time so I will leave that to someone else.

Ok lets start with the ideal tool kit of the time. Please feel free to add to this or subtract from it as you feel fit.

2 hand saws crosscut and rip
1 brace and bit
1",1 1/2", 2" bits
2 rafter squares
I would say a couple combination squares but they were apparently invented in 1878 so scratch that.
2+ framing chisels
1+ slicks
1 sharpening stone
1 file
1+ string lines
a measuring stick of some sort. (tape measures and folding rulers were invented 1850+)
1 marking gauge
1 draw knife
2-3 mallets if not made on site
1 froe
1 shaving horse if not made on site
2-3 hammers/hatchets with poles
1 awl
1 marking tool or knife(to replace a pencil)

I would also assume he may have the following
-an assortment of axes, one of which being a hewing ax
-an adz
-most carpenters would have had a couple planes too.

I suspect I'm missing stuff but its a start.

I would start by getting the mules ready(probably log ends), pegs going, and then move into knee braces using the worst stock for that first. After a few knee braces the helpers should be fine finishing them off and I would get myself at least a half day jump on the straightening of timbers and layout of the frame.

The first day would be shorter. Kind of an intro. After that I would be leaving for work at dawn and coming home just before dusk. My helpers might show up just a bit later or leave a bit earlier if they had pigs to feed or cows to milk.

Price I will leave to someone else. Although I probably would have the owner pay the helpers directly if he knows them well.
Posted By: mo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/28/10 02:32 AM

I'll give it a shot:

Toolkit:

Cribbing ponies
straps
wheeled device for moving timbers

Chalkline
level
dividers
plumb bob/line
string
framing square
wedges
scratch awl

handsaws
axe
bits/brace
chisel
slick

froe
shaving horse
drawknife

pole
guylines
block
windlass
pike poles
beetle
hammer
mallet
driftpins

food
water
tourniquet
splint

1st day (assuming foundation is done, if not foundation): get an image of the frame in the helps mind. goals to be set at different intervals of the project. inventory timber and designate sticks for placement in frame. crib the plates and place the xframe timbers on top of plates. find flat area to scribe the seperate frames. pay at the end of week according to performance (this colony is an "at-will employment" area).
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/28/10 12:24 PM

Hi everyone tonight:

Well what a great start you 2 brave souls, a great start to the list

To everyone else lets jump in and help Mo and Gumphri put some finishing touches on this tool list, after all we don't want to get held up without the proper tools and have the hired help standing around do we?

I fully intend to stay out of listing and will moderate from the sidelines--I do see though a few items that would need to be on site that are not listed--

We will be discussing the foundation eventually so you foundation guys think about that aspect from the mid 18th century period.

This barn will not have a full foundation but substantial bearing points

Just a note before I leave to many who will be looking in, now is your chance to jump in even with only one item, it could be a very valuable tool that might be needed and it would be nice to have it available should the need be required by your paid helpers

To you history buffs, you might clarify the type of tool(s)that were available and maybe suggest that they should or shouldn,t be around. Let us keep in mind no later than 1867 which was the year of confederation for Canada, the year of census taking and those wonderful Hardware Catalogues, and to that end should have been listed for sale if they were patented yet.

Thanks again--have fun--lets keep going down memory lane

\NH\
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/28/10 11:01 PM

Wheelbarrow, for the foundation. And a good eye.

Bartering and borrowing, grain, livestock and such, for the cost consideration.

I found this interesting.....http://www.wvculture.org/hiSTory/journal_wvh/wvh51-4.html
"Folkways can tell us much about the non-monetized economic exchanges of rural West Virginia. If someone possessed an implement that was not in use, another person could arrange to borrow it or request help with the work he or she intended to do. It was implied that the borrower would later repay the favor by lending something in return, volunteering labor when necessary, or contributing other goods at some mutually convenient time. Within this context, a relatively poor farmer might contribute mostly labor while a relatively prosperous farmer might more readily lend equipment."

Tim
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/28/10 11:19 PM

Tim, Things still work that way where I grew up. Often where livestock or harvest is involved.
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/10 01:16 AM

beers stashed in the spring for the end of the day.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/10 12:28 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

Further to our discussion ABOVE--

No one seems to be coming forward with further suggestions so maybe I will put in a few items

-two man crosscut saw will be a must for sawing to length
-Peevey for rolling the timbers (2)
-timber dogs (4 sets)

NH
Posted By: toivo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/10 01:32 AM

and some big spikes to make a bunk. let's add that to the list.

and now we need horses to carry all of this.

axe, chisel, cross- cut saw, square, string. simplify, simplify, simplify.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/10 06:45 AM

Hi Richard,

Why do you need 4 sets (pairs ?) of log dogs ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/08/10 02:19 PM

Hi Ken and Tovio:

Ken-- during the trial layouts an extra set of log dogs come in handy to hold the frame down while the squaring off and checking for accuracy is ongoing, maybe many would skip this step but in my books it is imperative to catch mistakes prior to the day of the raising

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/09/10 08:42 AM

Hi Richard,

Aha, so this relates to framing rather than hewing. I have just ordered up some blacksmith made log dogs (one short and one long pair) for hewing but have never considered that these tools might also be used in framing, though you suggestion might have legs.

Anyone else using dogs during layout ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/09/10 11:10 AM

Ken, I have used clamps when working alone to hold one end of timber while I deal with the other. Those curved sticks some times have a mind of their own, they don't behave as a straight piece. Dogs, I imagine, would bump the timber too much when setting them or at least a chance of it. Maybe I am seeing the dogs used for a different purpose than NH is proposing?

I do like my dividers. I am starting to use them more for copying small increments in trim work and such. My big set will stretch out to 24" I don't need the tape measure. No more holding on 1" or trying to stick the hook end of the tape into a tight corner, or guessing where the fraction is on the bend of the tape. Yes, dividers/compass would surely be on the list.

Tim
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/10/10 02:23 AM

Hi everyone tonight

I should add here that I always worked with hewn material that continued to carry the chalk line lining marks on all the finished framing surfaces.

I expect that most of you work with smoothly finished surfaces, and possibly no lining chalk marks.

During the fitting process the frame's long segments are laid out in the fitting area, on top of six by sixes and held tightly in position using timber dogs, while all the other segments are tapped into their positions.

Then using measuring poles of varying lengths the measurements are double checked using the intersecting points of the chalk lines to ensure their accuracy and also to ensure that they will properly meld into the finished frame as a whole.

I hope that I have explained how these sets of timber dogs would be used in the fitting process

NH
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/25/10 05:06 PM

If there was real interest wouldn't the poster speak to the topic?

Is the interest perhaps in selling human hair thingys from other continents and countries?
Posted By: bmike

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/25/10 06:44 PM

Will, me thinks that post is a spambot.
Posted By: Joel McCarty

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/25/10 09:02 PM

Standing by, ever vigilant.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/25/10 11:06 PM

...with a spambot swatter.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/05/10 03:11 PM

Hello everyone today:

well I don't very often sit down in the dayime especially when my help is required eslewhere around this dairy ranch, but I just thought that I would look in to my chat site and to the other very interesting sites to see what is happening.

I had a call to visit an old barn and help the owner make some informed decisions about the sequences required to straighten up and stabilize her building which I commend her for wanting to preserve rather than tear down the normal practice it seems.

It continues to amaze me how the old timers moved buildings and attached them to existing buildings, and remodelled the structures to exhibit a lovely continuation of the exterior roof lines.

That is what happened in this case but in doing so there is some compromises that happen, and sometimes thse compromises cause frame failures to happen when major weather disturbances throw the book at us, I think back to the ice storm that piled 3 to 4 inches of ice on the roofs of old and modern structures, straining and bowing the timbers and trusses to their breaking point. I must say though that most of the older buildingsbuilt without engineering reports papers etc seemed to have been put up with a fair amount of extra strength

ewnjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/29/10 01:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

Sorry for being away so long but duty called me down on the farm, and I can't refuse the needed help out there.

Today I had a meeting to explore a call to restore 2-- 6" cannon frames, the material is 6" white oak and would no doubt be a very interesting project. I will keep you guys and gals updated as time goes along.

NH

Posted By: jameshelti1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/14/10 05:32 PM

thanks
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 08:20 AM

Hi,
hewing can be more than just one thing. There are lots of different techniques and idiosyncrasies but I wonder if these have names, particularly regarding surface appearance. A beam hewn tangentially results in a different surface appearance then one hewn along the length. Also, somewhere in this very forum is a link to a picture of some hewn work out of Finland with a very particular surface appearance. Are these various hewing forms named in a way that someone could make a reference to them other than to describe an action or location?

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 11:43 AM

Hi Cecile,

That pic of the hewing styles employed in Finland might well be an extract from an article that I wrote for Timber Framing nearly 10 years ago and this can still be downloaded from :-

Visit to Finland

The article contains photos of the hewer, axe and finish (forgive the pun) obtained on Scots pine logs on a church at Karsamaki.

I agree with you that we are heading towards a point where someone really needs to compile and document in a paper for publication of a full collection of hewing tools, styles, signatures, finishes obtained, etc., used to convert logs for both academic and craft reference purposes.

I would encourage you all to download a watch all 4 videos (20mb each) from :-

Viking ship construction

where you will see wedged cleaving and "T" axe hewing of monster oak to produce clinker planks and a mast fish and also how pine tar is made in Finland which is used in Viking ship construction.

When you all get your jaws off the ground we can talk again.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 02:20 PM

Amazing.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 03:21 PM

Hello,
I made some pine tar there, with Leif Karlson a few summers ago while in Sweden. He does it every year just to keep the tradition going. We hauled, I'd say, around 3 quarts from this burning and since that is not so much I'm using it sparingly, mostly to dip nails. On the other hand we just covered the barn this summer with a mixture of Swedish pine tar, linseed oil, grown and pressed right up the road here, and lamp black pigment. In Finland, they eat tar.

Ken Hume, probably your article was one of the first times I came across such a focus on this Finish style, or technique, or method of hewing. I don't even remember it standing out when I visited the open air museum there near Helsinki some years back. These Finish axes are also real peculiar. I found one on the ground up there once and brought it home, put a handle on and it has been one of my favorite axes since. Though mine is not equivalent to a broad axe (PIILUKIRVEET), and not good for surfacing. But are you aware of any such categorization or do you have plans to make one up? I sure would like to see something giving the characteristics of let's say cross-grain hewing or along-the-grain hewing or this wavy Finish pattern. Just to compare and contrast, you know, and then choose.

This cleaving shown in the film could only be reliably done with Danish oak. The way they manage to the point of excess their oak stands, and all. It should have its own species designation, it's not normal, this oak.

I thought the videos were a bit weak on details and digital animation does nothing for me but the intent was clear and the project mighty.

Don Wagstaff - (not Cecile, to whom I am married)
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 04:00 PM

->DON<-
I myself have made that same mistake in the past! (calling you by your wife's name)

I have never heard of any naming of the hewing styles in my study. Perhaps we should come up with a way of naming them.
Perhaps a good method would be to classify them according to tools used and region of origin and/or usage.

I wold think that these classifications would have to be pretty general, because every hewer will have his own spin on things.

You might have names like American Felling-Pennsylvania Axe or Germanic Bundaxt-Breitbeil or Central European Bradvil

Then on top of that, you might also tell if the hewer works cross grain, long grain, or in a sweeping motion, or whatever other direction you might can think of...

Also, I want pine tar! Too bad we don't have pine in Indiana
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 08:10 PM

Hi Don,

I saw the pine tar pit at Turkansari Outdoor Museum near Oulu in Finland and was taken aback by the diameter of pine tar burn pit. They make pine tar sweets from this gunk which are apparently good for sore or stripped throats. This pine tar was imported into England and used to coat wooden ships plus I have also seen it used on the lower parts of timber framed buildings (brick & sills). Part of the front door of our granary is coated with this tar with later planks simply being covered in creosote.

The Danes and Vikings occupied large parts of England (Danelaw) long before the Normans came calling and so its quite possible that a significant transfer of carpentry know how arrived in England from this source.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/10 08:31 PM

Ken, English shipbuilding and Naval tradition owes a tremendous debt to the Danes and Norwegians who occupied half of Britain at one point. Many of the naval terms in the English language (and about 1/3 of the most common everyday words) are derived from Old Norse, such as starboard, bulkhead, Bulwark, and others. Even the word boat is apparently of ON origin. In addition, the Normans are descendants of Viking invaders who were bribed by a French king to settle in Normandy. As can be seen on the Bayeux Tapestry they preserved their Viking carpentry skills at least until the invasion.

As far as carpentry goes, Scarf, butt, window, scant, possibly rafter (ON raptr), and other terms are derived from or influenced by Old Norse.

I read once that the Norwegian Stave Churches are all coated in tar, and are re-coated periodically. This is perhaps key to their longevity in such excellent condition, such as ornate carvings retaining all of their details that date to around 1050 on Urnes Stave Church
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/25/10 06:49 AM

Hi, Just thought I would include this US government produced film , also because it is not from off of youtube. Other interesting films to be found here on early logging in the US etc...

I think this double scoring technique he uses is an interesting alternative to notching.

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/03/10 12:38 PM

Hi,
any thoughts on how you get this from this?

Don
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/10 01:27 AM

Don, what are the dimensions of your timber there, and of the original log?

Today I cut down a hard sugar maple tree and I am hewing a 25' section of it right now. The log has an average diameter of about 10 1/2 to 11" at one end and about 8 to 8 1/2" at the other end, I am hewing a 6x6 timber out of it, with one end just a little bit wany.

Part of the reason is I wanted to see how well maple does. I want to see how easily it hews and how stable it is afterward. How much it checks and cracks as it dries, etc.

My experience with hard maple tells me that it is a dimensionally stable wood, meaning it does not check, twist, bend, bow, cup, or warp excessively. But it does expand and contract a bit from season to season which is a disadvantage in some situations. As I am writing this I am sitting at my desk that I built a few years ago entirely out of solid hard maple with a solid 27" top that has not had a bit of trouble not being in a climate controlled environment.

This wood is very stiff (similar to black cherry, which has been used in framing), has a very high crushing strength, is straight grained (it is an excellent wood to make arrows out of because it is very easy to find perfectly straight grain), and around here we happen to have an over abundance of it (to the point where it is advisable to remove some of the smaller trees to allow the neighboring and much more valuable cherry and walnut trees to grow)

As far as hewing, I found it to be surprisingly easy. A good heavy axe swims through it easily, and the straight grain makes a fine partner in the process. It notches very easily, which is surprising because it is very hard and very tight-grained, both properties that make wood resistant to cutting.

What opinions do you all have about maple for use in structural applications? I know I have heard that hard maple is particularly well suited to use as bracing because of its high crushing strength and low bending. I am wondering how it can handle larger spans
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/10 06:39 PM

Hi D L,
I didn't really take note of what the diameters of this stem were beyond determining that I could get a balk 8 X 15 X 9001 cm out of it. I try to limit how many numbers there are floating around in my head. Sorry for you about that. I am going, though, into a lot more detail over this particular piece of wood just here with the full unedited photographic accounting to be seen at this location.

I imagine that fresh maple does hew nicely. That comes mostly because the fibers making up maple wood are short ones and no matter what you are cutting/carving with, maple responds well to a sharp blade.

Not to worry about structural applications. Any such concerns come again from these short fibers and the regular dispersion of poors - known to many as DIFUSE POROSITY - throughout the wood but are really only relevant to the furniture maker, in particular the chair maker. You wouldn't want to make tenons out of maple in a chair construction. Better to use floating tenons of another suitable wood.

Maple must not be exposed to the outside climate or moisture from the ground though. It is susceptible to fungus attack.

Greetings,

Don
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/10 08:00 PM

Thanks Don, as usual you are a wealth of helpful information.

Unfortunately for me, the two tree species I have most abundantly are pignut hickory and maple, both of which are very susceptible to rot. That is one of the reasons I have decided to seal all timbers on outside walls with wood tar, and to seal the boarding gaps as well (makes the whole things kind of like a Klinker built boat). The other reasons being it is authentic, and it looks and smells wonderful.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/21/10 12:12 AM

Well hello everyone tonight:

Thanks to everyone for the wonderful and informative threads that you all have put forward, I know that I have really enjoyed reading and catching up the last page in particular.

This is alittle off line but maybe someone might have an answer for me--my son bought a older home that has a slate roof which is not in bad shape, but the flashing in the valleys needs replacing--does anyone out there have any ideas how this might be done.

I have looked it over and really can't come up with a possible solution without spoiling the whole roof

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/04/10 08:43 PM

Hi,
this question from NH about slate roofing was never addressed so here is my poor response. Although my experience is with tile not slate, and this picture * is not of the valley. Regardless, I have done something similar in a valley, lining it with lead like you saw in the picture and the principle is pretty straight forward, although at a valley the slate would overlap the lead.

Greetings,

Don

*© Architekt Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Marc Sattel
Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/06/10 04:00 PM

NH,
If the slates are sound and good for more years of protecting from the weather, they will be removable with care and some skill that is simple to learn, then after valley flashing is properly replaced the slates can be re-installed. Removing and re-installing good slates won't "spoil the whole roof". The pitch of the roof, and size and thickness of the slates, and the length of the valleys will determine the ladders, planks, padding, scaffolding etc he'll need. Don't work up there when the slates are wet - very slippery!
Of course the roof sheathing and rafters are to be checked for soundness and proper nailing. If the slates are all the same size you don’t have to keep them in order of removal. You're wise to get some more sound slates, new or old, closely matched in color of the same thickness and the same size or larger to replace a few you might break. Hold a removed slate up with one hand and tap it lightly on a face with a hammer. If it rings it's good, if it thuds it's mush and is good for roadbed material.
I prefer to make valley flashing pcs of 24" x 10' cold rolled (hard) copper or lead coated copper, 16oz or 20 oz per sq ft. I'll use lead sheet, 2.5lb or 4lb per sq ft for step flashing or chimney counterflashing or cap flashing and pans, but very rarely for valleys. Lead is available 4' x4' and 4' x5'. It is dense and easy to form, but doesn't hold to a bent profile like hard copper will. You can bend the lead by hand (wear gloves and wash your hands before you eat lunch) but you'll need a brake to bend the cold rolled.
Pull out all nails that held down old valley flashing. Install 30# felt in the length of the valley, fasten w copper nails. Valley flashings to be bent in the shape of a W, with hems at the outer edges. The inverted ^ at the center has 1" legs and it sticks up to the sky, allowing expansion/contraction of the metal. Then the wings or outer legs of the W lie flat onto the roof planes and are c. 10" wide. The outside edges get another bend, or hem, 3/4" - 1" wide (the entire 10' length) inward onto the top (sky side) of the 10" wide wings c. 180 degrees but not closed tight. This prevents water from running beyond the edge, plus cleats hook into it at 12" oc to hold flashing in place and to have NO NAILS PUNCTURE THE VALLEY FLASHING except one copper nail at each top corner to hold it. Cleats are same metal, 2.5" x 4" and are nailed w (2) copper nails to the roof deck just outside the valley, one end bent as a tab to grip inside the hem, the other end tab bent up, over, and flat down to cover the 2 nail heads.
Just as the metal flashing is to be installed, roll out red rosin paper to isolate the metal from the felt ("tar paper") so flashing metal will slide/move rather than get cemented to the "tar". The next flashing sheet up the valley overlaps the first by 6" with its hems inside the hems of the 1st sheet. Keep the water in the valley and flowing downward, right?
This new work should have no need for caulks or mastic or roof cement. To temp repair an existing leaking valley (or around chimneys) these rarely are 100% effective regardless of how much is gobbed on, unless you can see the damaged areas of eroded and corroded lines , tears and pinholes in the metal and fill and seal them. Re-do annually until you can afford to properly re-flash.
Two books w rules, specs, pics and drawings: "The Slate Book" and "Copper and Common Sense".
If you have to buy new slates any N American slate will be good for 100+ yrs, except PA slate good for 50 yrs - not worth the slightly cheaper price IMO.

Tools: you'll at least need a slate ripper, and good to get a slate hammer. New or used made by Stortz Co Philadelphia PA are excellent. If you have to cut or trim slates as you install them over the valley flashing sides you'll need a slate cutter. Nail holes are best "punched" rather than drilled. Punch holes from the back of the slate, using the slate hammer point or a nail set as a fine punch. Slate cutters usually have a punch point too. Slates hang on two, and only two copper nails, HUNG, not nailed down tight. A wide tipped flat bar is very useful. I am still using my 35 yr old American made Stanley Wonder Bar. So much better than the recently Mexican made, or is Stanley having them made in China now ? - prob worse.

Normal overlap of next course is Exposure plus 2" (e.g. 9" exposure requires a 20" long slate). Wear gloves and a respirator when removing existing slates and vacuum cleaning or sweeping existing felt and/or roof deck. Wear tough old pants and sneakers or boots w rubbery soles for a good grip. Prepare to get real dirty. Like most good quality construction work it's the 3 Ds, Detailed, Dirty and Dangerous. Could we add Difficult? not if you follow the rules and are prepared.
If you work smart and safe you'll have no need for good luck, except for the weather, and we can't do anything about that.

Glad to be of help Richard. I appreciate your hosting us at TTRAG in Morristown and Upper Canada Village. I learned lots at the Conference and tours. I still play one my Bobby Watt CDs every week.
Steve Miller
Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/06/10 04:18 PM

To Don,
In my limited experience with flat tiles on sloped roofs the rules and techniques are basically the same, although in some details of roof tile installation Portland cement mortar is used for filling, esp at rake edges.
Nice picture with the lead step and counter flashings. Good work. Covering the roof planes is straightforward and easy to learn and do well. Using proper techniques and materials for flashing edges, intersectons, valleys etc is where excellence in attention to detail is required and what will insure a good effective job well done. More than half of our roof work over 39 yrs is replacement and or repair of faulty flashing work. Could have, should have been done right the first time.
I enjoy seeing your creative work on your blog. Do you still need a smart farm dog? one of my Aussies? I have 3 pups available.
Steve
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/07/10 01:19 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Well thanks Steve for all that information on repairs to the slate roof's flashing, and I will relay your remarks to my son.

also thanks for your kind remarks, hosting you guys was one of the highlighrts of my career, it makes me feel good that I had something that I could share and be enjoyed by the TTRAG group who are all pretty knowledgeable people and great to have met.

Right now I am in the midst of the reconstruction of 2 period cannon bases that use 6" by 12" white oak sections, I will also need the services of a blacksmith to do period metal work It will be nice to get back in the groove so to speak.

You know and I am addressing those that are looking in tonight and that maybe need employment or ideas, you guys need to expand your knowledge base outside of building homes, timberframing is only part of what you can do with heavy timber, historic millwrighting, Historic mills, historic roads\bridge construction, even period fencing, repairing period machinery--even slate roofs like we talked about above--I could go on but I believe you get the drift.

I have been party to many and varied projects from modern to extremely historic--for instance restoring churches, print shop;s, tin shops, barns, drivesheds, smokehouses, one year I was put in charge of constructing a very modern food outlet, another I worked inside a modern store outlet and I must say that moving back and forth between the 2 mediums seemed to recharge my batteries.

I even did a lttle farming where I raised my family

Well good luck to you all, maybe my remaks will help some especially when you are still young enough to be able to learn more--be open and reseptive to new ideas don't stagnate in one area move on learn, move back if you need to, listen be like to wise old owl in the tree

NH
Posted By: ghdfans2010

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/10 08:33 AM

Hello! I am new here! That's very nice that I can find this forum from google. I found many useful info and funny stories here! I will come again.
Posted By: Housewright

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/10 12:52 PM

Hi NH;

Would there be much to see at Upper Canada Village whiltraveling to or from the conference at Montebello?

Thanks;
Jim
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/10 12:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Housewright
Hi NH;

Would there be much to see at Upper Canada Village whiltraveling to or from the conference at Montebello?

Thanks;
Jim


Definitely worth a stop. The sawmill is particularly cool. CB.
Posted By: Robert Leslie

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/10 02:04 PM

I justed checked the UCV website and hours of operation were not clear so I called St. Lawrence Parks. Access is now Mon. - Fri. from 10:00 to 3:00 to street view only. No building access. This ends Oct. 29 when they close to prep for winter schedule. There is a toll free # to confirm at http://www.uppercanadavillage.com/10090701.htm.

Rob
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/10 12:57 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Unfortunately the buildings in UCV are now closed for the winter season, and walking through the site is on for a while I am not sure for how long, it seems that each year with budget restraints the open season shrinks somewhat, it closed this year on Thanksgiving Sunday.

There is alot to see when things are going during the open season, 3 waterpowered mills, one steam powered (the grist mill), the wollen mill (water powered), and of course my favourite the 1848 waterpowered Muley saw mill.

I posted some pictures of the reconstruction of the sawmill's waterbarrel and drive axle, which took place about 6 or 7 years ago now. The reconstruction of the 12 " oak driveaxle with its offset crank was in itself a major part because it was held in place with hot babbet poured around its wings held in place with the oak wood of the shaft and original wrought iron rings on tapered turned wood seatings.

I had offered to make a presentation to the TTRAG on the Mulley Mill and its reconstruction 2 or 3 years ago now which would have been a lecture along with a slide presentation but was rejected at that time.

I won't be at the conference in Montebello unfortunately but I will be thinking of all you guys, no doubt Will and Joel have set up a good itinerary

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/21/10 07:24 PM

Hello everyone tonight:

Well its been a while since I have posted but thought that an update on the Wooden Garrison Carriages reconstruction for the city of Cornwall Ontario is progressing.

The first unit is approaching completion-- approx 1 month of work in my shop

The frame is 6" white oak sections held together with long 3\4" cold rolled steel rods.

I will try and post some pics eventually

The casted barrels weigh close to 2 tons that are supported by these wood bases.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/21/10 08:03 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Further to my above post

Parts of this reconstruction are challenging because I did not have access to a large bandsaw or lathe and to reproduce the round wooden axle ends I had to rely on my skills with the adze

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/22/10 07:53 AM

Hello,

Reminds me of the time I was able to spend a day helping to raise this reproduction windmill near Troyes, a project of an acquaintance. In the video, at the beginning you see also the massive axel of the windmill, similar work to yours I think.



Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire Moulin de vent - 11/22/10 07:39 PM

Don,
Thanks for this informative and inspiring record of some great work done.
Steve
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/07/10 10:29 AM

Well, hasn't this become the mother of all threads???
way to go northern hewer!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/08/10 01:07 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Also a very happpy and (more) prosperous year we all hope in 2011

Just an update on my project I am half way there 1 unit completed and 1 to go in the new year.

I had many inquisitive visitors drop by, and one in particular, a young fellow selling corn seed.

He looked at the Garrison Carriage and said to me what is it? I said what do you thing it is? He replied it sure looks like something to support a cannon, well I said it sure is, then he said are you repairing it? I said no it is completely new, well he said you could have fooled me because it looks old.

I told him he just made my day, and he said why, well for starters I said good restoration workmanship is supposed to renew and look old at the same time, and I know from your comment I have attained the look that will fool 90% of those that will examine it in the years to come.

Of course there is that group that really knows what they are looking at, and to that end I have to be sure that the details of workmanship meet very strict criteria, and adhere to the guidelines of military equipment construction dating back 300 years.

I did some research at Fort Henry in Kingston in preparation for
the project just to ensure that the details on the Garrison Carriage standing at UCV's main entrance the one I was using as a copy, and that I had restored 20 plus years ago were accurate, and I did find some irregularities that I corrected this time around to ensure that the ones following in my footsteps will have as accurate details as I can supply

Thanks for the comment Mark I only supply what I consider interesting topics and you guys make it all happen

NH
Posted By: Ray Gibbs

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/08/10 01:14 AM

Where are you doing this work Richard? I sure would like to stop by some time to see that.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/08/10 01:17 AM

Hi Ray

Give me a personal email for details

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/12/10 08:38 PM



here I am working a few moons ago

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/14/10 01:55 AM



Hello everyone tonight

Here is a wonderful period driveshed-horsebarn combination that I happened to run across in my travels and searches for historic structures

It has 3 16foot bays on one end, and a fairly large horse barn on the other end. There was an original hay manger still attached in the 3 bays with stays dovetailled into the vertical timbers to hold it in place

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/15/10 02:30 AM



Hi everyone tonight

I will be posting a series of pictures associated with the restoration of the barrel wheel that powers the vertical saw blade in the 1846 saw mill at UCV

This picture shows the wings of the cast iron offset crank that has been inserted into the end of the new turned 12" oak shaft using molten babbet and wrought iron rings that are original.

The wings increase in thickness as they protrude into the end of the shaft, this fact alone along with the rings on turned seatings make it vertually impossible for the unit to loosen from the unending pounding and tourque assocciated with the sawing proceedure

If anyone has questions do not hesitate to ask

enjoy

NH

Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/15/10 02:54 PM

Glad to see you've figured out all the ins and outs (ups and downs?) of posting pictures, Richard. Keep 'em coming. CB.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/16/10 02:52 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi CB nice to hear from you and the best in the new year

well things sort of slow down in the cold weather here and I thought that I would sharpen up my posting skills. I must say I surprised myself that I remembered the pass words, but proceedures was something else, I had to refer back to instructions from one of you guys a while back, and it all came together nicely--I hope you enjoy them as much as I enjoy posting for you all.

I am proud to be associated with the TFG group and be able to present items of interest from my past.

One area of historical interest that I will never escape from is the mulley mill and its wonderful but complicated equipment for sawing lumber with a single vertical blade

Having the opportunity to be in charge of the maintenance as well as the operation was a one in a million roll of the dice, and I intend to pass on tidbits of information to those that want to listen.

I often sat in the early morning sunlight streaming through the interior of the mill reflecting on those that must have went before me, and felt their presence and was able to overcome what seemed like unsurmountable tasks that rose from time to time with its delicate technicalities.

I believe that one of the greatest challenges I ever had was to put the mill together in running order after having dismantled it for reconstruction and repair, knowing full well that no help was available if it was required.

see you tomorrow night

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/17/10 01:29 AM



Hi everyone tonight

Here is a good view of the offset crank and its wings upon its removal from the old wooden shaft.

It is at this point that you get a funny sick feeling in your gut because you know full well that in the next few months you will need to have a fully operational new wooden axle complete with the crank installed, placed in a new wooden pressure box of exactly the right width, and I mean with the following criteria:

The pressure box (a view will be coming in the next installment or so) has to be so designed that any swelling of the water acting on the wooden surfaces will not create problems, and to that end you have to be sure to allow for that expansion, but not too much either to allow for excessive seepage along the edges of the cast iron collars, or in the reverse not allow the shaft to revolve.

There is no text books available to my knowledge that contains
such information, you are on your own, and it is a lonely ride let me tell you.

There could be someone out there with that experience but I was not able to locate them for any assistance.

There are quite a few vertical blade mills sprinkled over the country but I dare to say that many of these mills are not operational, or maybe just coasting along with the equipment as it is, or not coasting at all.

Some of the mills that I have visited have cast iron pressure boxes from what I can make out these types were running side by side in the same era, but were not available over all the primitive, or newly opened up areas of settlement

hope you enjoy this trip down memory lane

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/19/10 02:59 AM



Hello everyone tonight

As I promised here is a view of the newly reconstructed turbine box being readied for the new wooden oak shaft.

The placement of this box was a very delicate job because it had to be move about 6" to compensate for the movement sideways of the mill structure over a period of roughly 40 years,

Many would say that this is not very much of a problem, but for starters this pretty well moved all the benchmarks that had been established during the dismantling process, and meant that all new ones had to be established

Try it!

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/19/10 05:40 AM

Looks like a really fun project. If it were easy, it wouldn't be much fun, in my opinion. Probably only a handful of people doing what you are doing. Could you pre-soak the turbine box and then machine it to the exact dimension?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/10 03:20 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Dave,thanks for coming on board and the comments:

Well for starters Dave the White oak I used to fabricate the pressure box was milled from green logs, I did this on purpose so that the swelling of the box would not be excessive, when it eventually was exposed to water.

The problem was it was hard to determine just how much the timber was drying during the time from the milling process, the fabrication process and then of course the installation process, and most of these processes was in a heated environment

I realize that across the grain not much movement would take place especially with oak, but then there would be some, and the box is 36inches across solid wood, you can see what I mean.

On both sides of the pressure box run cast iron collars approx 36 inches in diameter, and these collars are on turned surfaces shouldered to bottom out at exactly the right spot and have cups molded in them in such a manner that the escaping water forces the shaft to spin in the opposite direction

You can see why the expansion of the box could be a real problem because these collars have a very small clearance and must run true so that they do not bind against the side of the pressure box

One of the problems associated with this type of power source is as the water passes through it also brings with it many fine particles and anything the right size can jam the wheel and stop the whole mill

I want to say this whole process was very interesting for me and my team, but in the end it ran like a top and is still running perfectly after approx 12 years now.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/10 04:39 AM

Thanks for sharing! I'd like to work on a mill or two someday. Water, wind, whatever. There is a chapter in "A Village Carpenter" by Walter Rose, on windmills and their care. Very interesting reading.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/23/10 01:00 AM



Hi everyone tonight

Here is a goodview of the turbine shaft still in the lathe
You will notice turned seatings in the foreground the closest turned seating is the identical diameter of the outside of the wings, and slots will be cut into this turned seating for the wings to slide back into, and then be held in place with babbet and the wrought iron rings, a view of this I posted first.

Alittle further you will notice another turned surface this is for the 36" cast iron rings that have cups casted around its surface.

You will notice that this turned surface ends abruptly and it is this detail that is extremely important because if it is not correct the rings would bind on the side of the pressure box or they could bottom out too far from the box if the shouldering ended too soon

Keep in mind that these surfaces are tapered and again if the tapering is too tight on the interior of cast iron surfaces it could crack the casting when the wood expands as exposure to water eventually takes place

there is alot of ifs here--

-if the wood turning is too tight failure of the casting takes place
-if the woodturning is too loose then the cast iron collars will spin around and destroy the axle

getting it just right is quite a feat, it was always in the back of my mind that should one of the cast collars crack, to have it replaced would cost thousands of dollars because a new pattern would have to be made by a pattern maker and then casted to allow for shrinkage in the casting process.

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/23/10 01:22 AM

Fortunately they make tape measures that account for the shrink. We've had some stuff cast at an Amish foundry in PA that does very high quality work. But, I'd probably be worried about breaking something too.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/26/10 05:54 PM

Hello everyone today:

Merry Christmas to all my visitors to this thread

I invite any questions about the above topic before I move on to another

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/01/11 07:28 PM

Well welcome to the new year--lets hope that it keeps on improving for all of you guys looking for work

remarks for the good of the order

things here in Canada are not too bad but could be alot better, just too much plastic money in use I say and too many looking for the free ride-taxes here are unreal but without that the free ride ends I guess

Ken you were remarking about no one posting, I believe that there is quite a slow down on projects especially house construction by the general public, not the real rich they are sitting back and waiting for a real bargain to come along

I am retired now but watch around me the struggle that is going on for many to provide the things that are needed for their families, the incentives by various governments seem to be helping somewhat but it is only a band aid fix, it will not take away the debt shouldered by everyone, even the elerly and the new born.

well happy new year to you all

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/09/11 02:51 AM

Well hello everyone\:

Here we go into the new year and what a day with the shooting in arizona, what a tragedy.

I would like to talk a bit about historical wall surfaces and help explain to those that need help and instruction-the proceedures to attain the unmistaken look of old surfaces from times gone by.

Old surfaces can be attained on modern constructed walls of dimension lumber, but for me the real look only comes when you are able to apply the surfaces to wooden lath or split lath applied over a timberframe structure covered with an interior smoothing surface of 1" square edged lumber

This smoothing surface is then smoothed further by applying vertical strips of lath that can be further straightened by using an 8 or 10 foot straight edge horizontally as one works along the wall surface to test and correct the relation of one vertical strip to another.

These vertical strips also allow an internal space for the plaster to squeeze through between the lath and form what is referred to as keys on the inside

It is these keys that need hair in the mixture to give the keys strength especially on ceiling surfaces to hold tight the weight of the plaster until the plaster cures and afterwards.

The true plaster wall surfaces contain 3 layers with the first layer containing hair or another suitable substitute such as hemp it is known as the smoothing coat and is scratched using a board with nails slightly protruding. The scratching will enable the next coat to bond with the first smoothing coat. A wood float is all that is used for smoothing the plastered surface

This coat is applied vertically from floor to the ceiling in stages of about eight feet or less and using the straight edge is levelled from edge to edge horizontally as well as vertically. A level is employed to make sure that the wall is plumb and true before moving on to the next stage. It is also scratched before moving on

One can work with smaller vertical strips if so desired but a truer wall will result from wider vertical strips being formed and used.

The historic mixture for this is 3 (shovels) of good sharp sand mixed with 1 (shovel) of slacked lime adding the hair or substitute to the mixture. The amount of hair or substitute will vary from one plasterer to another but the book says about one shovel of hair to a mixture of "20 shovels full". The book also refered to the use of "animal hair mostly from cattle but other types can be used". It also states that "ceiling mixtures should contain more for strength"

Any questions?

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/09/11 02:26 PM

HI,
From what I can make of it, your interior walls are built up as follows, as it appears in your text:
1st layer - Wooden lath or split lath applied over the timber frame. (Horizontally oriented?)
2nd layer - An interior smoothing surface of 1 inch square edged lumber.
3rd layer ( we are yet apply any plaster. Right?) — Vertical strips... for keys.
4th layer - Plaster mixed with hair.
The text doesn't specify any further layers but since it does say 3 layers of plaster I guess there would be layers 5 and 6 of different or similar plaster mixtures and surface textures.

And this is plastering the infill panels I'm guessing because this is in the hewing questionnaire, right? And we aren't going to plaster over those fine timbers now. Or has that subject title totally lost any meaning at this point?


This subject caught my eye just because the other day I had to climb up in the attic to track down a leak when the ice and snow on the roof suddenly melted. While up there I noticed a wall I had plastered a few years back with — let's see, how do you call it, well, I'll say clay, sand, and cow manure, horse and reindeer hair mixed up good, and how good it seemed to have dried up and become solid. And largely thanks to the cow shit. Then I made a picture.

Someone looking good at those keys would notice a sort of grayish brown and also the darker brown. The darker color is the result of throwing the poop in there and has the effect of really binding the plaster well.

It's a foul smelling business at first but pretty soon the offense fades away.

I guess the only thing I would add to the other entry up there is that the type of hair could be of importance as some — human, dog, cow...— are normally quite fatty by nature and can better be substituted with hair known not to have this characteristic.
And it is true or the truth, that there is no beating the appearance of a good old-fashioned plastered wall surface whatever form it may take.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/10/11 12:45 AM

Hi Don and others looking in

I guess a little clarification is warranted

the 3 layers that I am referring to was only plaster layers.

I suppose the preparation of the wall surfaces prior to the application of the 3 plaster layers could be referred to as layers but I would like to refer to them as steps, so in this regard I would like to once again qickly run through the steps prior to the application of the plaster layers---

I was referring to one type of wall construction(of which there are many-- using timberframing as the building medium)--having said that we would have in this scenario 3 or 4 cross bents of large vertical wall timbers between which would be smaller vertical studs of rough 4 by 4's

In my scenario on the exterior wall surface would be a surface of 1" square edged boards, on the interior would be also a surface of 1" square edged boarding applied to the 4 by 4 studdings, up against the side opf the large vertical timbers that make up the bents

On this surface then would be applied vertical strips of 1" by 3" at maybe 24" \oc and on these vertical strips would be the
horizontal wood lath spaced so that the initial layer of plaster would be able to squeeze through and form a key on the inside cavity, it is this plaster layer that would have the hair mixture for strength

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/11/11 01:48 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

I hope that historic plaster enthusiasts are visiting and gaining some insight into the technique of constructing an authentic 18th century wall surface.

Don above has eluded to the use of a variety of ingredients that could be used if it became imperative to use a very cheap and plentiful supply of something else.

Don is quite right in our region the ingredients he eluded to were used at times, in outbuildings of lesser importance than the home say the barn, heated sheds, hen houses, pig pens, you name it but normally not the home.

Most period home's walls were finished with slacked lime and sand mixtures, the interior of the wall cavity might be brick or stone filled which could have been laid with a clay mortar mixture, which does not work bad but similar to lime mixtures and will harden well. Clay mixtures though do not weather well unless fire hardened, and its use should be restricted to dry areas.

The lime that was used then was a white lime powder that resulted from the burning of limestone, shells, or anything that was created with lime. The resulting white powder is very volatile and will when exposed to moisture begin to heat rapidly and can burn up any wooden or flammable container near it.

Great care has to be exercised when one begins to slack it with water to obtain slacked lime for the use in plaster mixtures.

I wonder if Ken would like to comment on lime mixtures at this point, or anyone else who is knowledgeable on this subjectt and who might like to add a comment or two

Don also eluded to not covering up hewn timbers, well unfortunately in an historic sense most times the rough hewn frames were covered up and disappeared into the wall cavities, Ceiling timbers were finished differently, at times (not always)
The timbers were adzed finished and beaded on the bottom corners and left exposed. In the process you could look right up at the bottom of the second story t&g flooring and made for a lovely look.

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/11/11 02:31 AM

http://www.lehmbau-kalkputz.ch/index-4214.html

That is a site in German (Google translate is at your service) and in it the author describes a number of techniques for the use of lime and clay to create wall surfaces, interior and exterior. He talks about older methods used centuries ago, but has also come up with a sensible modern application of those methods.
He describes the use of reeds like we would use lath to support plaster, suggesting this material for use in exterior applications or in places like damp basements where there will be much water. For other applications he suggests the use of reed and clay. The wall cavities are then filled with cellulose. In the past instead of the cellulose he says that straw dipped into wet loam would have been used to pack the cavities, this was used in wall cavities, roof cavities, and even floor cavities. A very interesting system indeed, easily adaptable to modern insulating materials and old materials alike.

He also describes a technique that is interesting to me, Sgraffito. This is the technique of carving through one layer of plaster to another layer of contrasting color to create design and ornament that is permanent.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/11/11 03:45 PM

Hello,
Is quick lime, this volatile form of lime, something to be easily gotten from a commercial supplier?

Slaked lime, which is the end, or say, usable product, doesn't generate this sudden reaction and isn't precarious to work with at all, though not pleasant to breath in by any means. But this is what we're talking about in relation to plaster, right?

Historically I think the distinction wouldn't have been so relevant because the burned lime, - stone where that was around or seashells if that was nearby - would have been gathered and slaked and, left to brew, at a work site.

(This brewing aspect is also interesting in relation to plastering work. For masonry the slaked lime would have been left to brew for months ahead of the time it was used. Lime plaster for the finest work could be left in containers at the bottom of a well for as long as 40 years before it was used. That is called putkalk or well lime.)

I could buy this distinction between, let's say homes, and other buildings which were not lived in. But I don't know. Could it have anything to do with social or economic standing. That is, in expensive houses walls might be plastered with lime plaster and in simpler houses it was clay plaster. That's what I've seen around here so it's a question where one type of plastering was used or the other. Maybe it's geographical. What about in eastern Europe or the Southwest in the US? The way I like to look at it is that lime plaster is more refined and subtle and you can make a more exact surface than with these, let's say, rough clay plasters - not forgetting the fine tadelak work out of North Africa which is in fact combining clay and lime.

Anyway, that picture there above shows a variation in as far as it is a framework nailed onto the inside of the structural timbers, in this case the roof truss, with a lattice work - a reed mat in place of split lath - to form gaps for the plaster to latch onto. Pretty straightforward. It's clear that for a lot of history - or maybe not so far back really as just last week I sat in the kitchen of an old sheep farmer in France who's heavy timbered ceilings beams were wallpaper covered - timber, stone, brick were covered up with intention. Which I think says something about how important plastering in whatever form has been. But also how subject it is to fashion or trends.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/11 02:02 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming on board with constructive dialogue in relation to the many ways that were used to achieve wall surfaces around the globe.

It seems to boil down to what was available locally, traditions, and what technology was handed down from generation to generation

Over the years I tuned into the local building traditions of Upper Canada, which was settled by a mixture of German, dutch, Irish, Scottish, and English immigrants.

This of course resulted in a mixture of ideas and eventually resulted in a "Canadian" technique that only experienced persons can sort out where and when ideas originated, sometimes 2 to 300 years in advance.

I am not an authority on European techniques and really enjoy the input of this type of information from all of you.

I try and not stray away from areas that i am familiar with and feel comfortable talking about

The "reasonably old structures" surviving in Upper Canada are not old by European standards, but do exhibit the infusion of genetic building blocks that came with these early pioneers, who added features of other founding cultures and eventually these ideas melded into and became the "Canadian" culture as we know it today.

Take the technique of hewing square timbers by hand, this subject has really been kicked around on this thread, but as you study it you realize that the final resulting technique used just before stick framing came into main stream, probably combined the best and easiest way to work safely, and produce squared timber, with no more improvements made, it just seemed to stagnate and be taken by many as the way it was always done.

When you start to investigate the various techniques it is like looking back in time or as you look to the heavens and see light that is only now reaching us from time gone by.

Thanks for all your input you guys, maybe more of you will comment and widen out our level of knowledge.

enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/11 12:43 PM

I purchased some pre slacked lime in dry form from Virginia Lime Works, part of their mix and go line. I just needed to add sand. It was not putty. I had a few bags left over, afraid they would go bad, like the typical bag of cement left in the shed for 5 years, I mixed it up into a putty and stored it in a big plastic tub. I did this with the understanding it would last in the putty form. It was topped off with a couple inches of water to keep it from drying our. After almost two years I now have a nice light blue, hard, smelly lime block. Apparently the mix and go does not work like the raw putty lime does. I have a couple bags in the dry form which I am hanging onto to they have not gone hard, yet.

I heard NASA was watching a new big green shape in space, whatever it is, it's probably long gone or changed into something different, like my putty.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/13/11 12:50 AM

Hi everyone tonight:

You are right Timbeal, What you were working with was not the real slacked burnt lime, it also is a powder but very volatile, and once slacked will remain in a putty form for a very long time, provided that it is kept wet, some dug a hole in the ground and stored it there, we did that at Ucv and retrieved some as we needed it for demonstration purposes and maintenance on the historic structures.

This same putty mixture by the way is what is used for the final third layer, as you build up the (3) coats on a wall surface, it is put on very sparingly and trowelled to a very smooth surface, and when dry is very hard, and when tapped lightly will ring

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/13/11 08:29 PM

Hello,

Still, I think it can be tough to really get it with lime. But the more I work with it and learn about it, the more I appreciate its uses. Here at home some of the many uses include:

White washing.
With pigment and a binder it makes a very fine paint.
Pointing
Masonry
Floor
Plastering
Glazing putty (mixed with linseed oil)
Linseed oil paint additive

I also use it with puzzolan, or trass, what could the English equivalent be? Volcanic dust which has a very marked effect on how it hardens - relevant for capillary moisture movement in supporting walls and masonry foundations.
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/13/11 08:52 PM

The Swiss website I talked about earlier mentioned 3 different additives for the different layers. The first layer he used coarse sand, the second layer fine sand, and the final layer he used marble dust. Would adding marble dust help to prevent shrinkage (and the resulting cracking) in the plaster as it dries?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/11 02:17 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Good discussions, and thanks for sharing with everyone

I am sure that the european, italian , swiss wall mixtures would vary with each culture, and of course the ingredients that was available in each region. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the Italian, or Mediterranean culture had many centuries of experimentation and came up with formulas that even today cannot be improved upon, providing that we knew what they used.

The only thing that I am sure of is that in Upper Canada only good sharp sand along with the lime was used in the preparation of the wall surface's 2 underlayers, and if possible hair from cattle or horses was used as a binding agent.

I have read some accounts where the mortar used in the ancient Roman walls in Britain have been examined to determine just what they used at that time, Ken might have something to add on this front, I suspect that they also used ingredients that was available locally rather than import.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/11 08:38 AM

Hi Richard,

The ancient Roman capital of England at Silchester is only a short bike ride away from home and I visted this last year with Chris How from Australia who examined the still standing city walls to same. He spotted pices of charcoal in the lime mortar mix that used to hold the wall together and with a life span now of over 2000 years the Romans obviously knew a thing or two about building. I will take a digi pic the next time I make a bike ride round past "Calleva Atribatum".

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/11 11:21 AM

Hello,

It was a matter of common practice, up until the collective worldwide derailing of sanity going on just now, that reuse was the norm. Brick, wood and I have heard, but it may be a myth, even lime mortar. But you could include window panes, roof tiles - christ, who knows how far this cycle of re-use was or could be perpetuated.

I have spent many hours for days knocking old lime mortar off of brick and reusing the bricks. There are noticeable impurities imbedded in the mortar, mostly bits - up to 5 mm and sometimes as big as 1 cm - of shells. These impurities, the result of the less than clinical production precesses, play no small part in the overall character of the mortar. Because modern production is largely a clinically controlled process, where imperfections are frowned on, these defects are done away with and result qualitatively in a different product. This old lime mortar is truly wonderful stuff I notice as I struggle to remove it, and I am left to live with the knowledge that the best that I can do will never match up in reality.

But back to lime plaster and lime plaster applied to interior walls, as the subject was. Except to say those Roman weenies never could occupy Friesland. Ha. Pleased to say that I just hauled some of my lime, in a bucket with the lid on and topped off with water, up from the well after a few years, and it remains a nice, smooth and sticky paste. Only 30 or so more years to go now. It's true that the sand used is particular in that not any old sand will do. Sharp edges give the lime, (binder) a chance fuse with the sand,(aggregate). Binder, aggregate, strength! Water, catalyzer plus makes it easier to use. Watch out, not too much.
I like the idea of storing it in the ground and digging it up later to use. Only thing is that eventually the lime would leach and seep into the ground and leave only sand behind. Better store your clay in the ground and give the lime an impermeable bottom to stand on while it brews.

Now I wonder about finishing off the plastered surface. I can think of no lime based surfaces left without some kind of finish treatment. In fact I think any such surface would be technically incomplete.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/11 12:43 PM

I am amazed every time I walk past the small patch of clay and straw infill in my little blacksmith building. It is holding up very well, no noticeable degrade in the material after 3 years. In hard rain I walk by it and it almost always appears dry! I can just make out straw fleck through the lime wash covering the clay. Time for a second coat this spring I suppose.

I do see some loose sections but these are due to me not having sufficient pinning to the timber with the waddle system.

I also have a section of lime plaster in the house I am testing for durability. It is in the wood storage corner, the lower section is boards, about 3' up the plaster starts. When the wood pile is fresh it reaches the plaster, I am seeing a 1" chunk which was knocked with a stick of wood, some cracks at the lath and in the corner. I have only one coat at this time. As the inner working of the house change this area will no longer be for wood storage and i will finnish it off. It is holding pretty well for the abuse it gets.
Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/11 11:26 PM

I've been putting the first coat of lime plaster on my living room walls. Because I'm slow, I've had the lime putty (topped with water) in my basement for about 3 years. For whatever reason the standard 3/1 sand/putty mix was coming out way too dry. I have no idea of what ratio I did use, just whatever felt right on the hawk and trowel.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/11 01:13 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks ken and others for coming on board with constructive information it helps to keep things in prospective using a varied recipe of mixtures and methods from around the globe.

Don--you mentioned the finishing of the wall surface, according to my research the last or third coat, would be just the putty lime trowelled on with a steel trowel, maybe others have additional information on other techniques.

The Grist mill that we reconstructed at UCV had of course stone walls, and on the interior surface the final layer was not trowelled but floated with a wood float, and left a wee bit on the rough side, and not very level, the mixture was just sand and lime 3 to 1.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/11 07:39 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Don: that final finish on the walls I suppose that you could be referring to could be a paint layer or wall paper or it could be paint graining if you were able to do that or had the funds to hire a person that could do it for you.

paint graining is not too hard to do it just needs alitle practice and a bit of knowledge to accomplish.

Our historic painter(s) at UCV could do this type of finish, and to appreciate the technique, and to be able to evaluate their work I took a couple of historic course on paint graining and marblezing.

The result of this type of painting can be just fantastic, especially the marbelizing, a good historic painter, can reproduce just about any type of marble finish with amazing reality

Once again I do not profess to be an authority on paint graining, but then again many wives and husbands that look at the product (timber finishes) that you guys produce can easily spot flaws, it is this type of supervision that I had to be able to put forward or at least converse about with the professional person.

I might say that the majority of these historic specialists are not easy to supervise, they take very great offense at being supervised at all but feel that they should only answer to high level managers

In someways I agree and have had hard conversations with some of these individuals, from experience I have worked forsupervisors that really could not do the work that I was hired to do.

It is my opinion that supervisors need only to have a good grasp of professional's jobs, they are being hired at good salaries to do the work or produce finishes that they are hired to do, or that the site required. Year end evaluations are extremely difficult!!

Maybe some of you have additional comments about being chastised by other than professionals of your training or experience, from past comments I can tell that there is problems from time to time.

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/11 10:03 PM

Hi,
Yes, NH, ( I don't know if I should be putting an article before that or not - as in the NH or the northern hewer...), and not to move the topic on or anything 'cause there is plenty more could be said here but I did mean how these old-time-plastered walls would have been handled once the plaster was up there. But just as important how they could or should be worked on even now, or in a non-historical setting. After all we shouldn't give the whole thing up for dead and buried in a museum out there somewhere.The use of clay here is widespread, relatively, but I see lime making strong inroads now as a wall covering.

The finishes I am aware of are paints, washes and wallpapering but then maybe not the sort of wallpapering generally thought of today. I mean the strung up paper with linen backing floating on a wooden framework attached to the plastered wall. I'm also aware of plastered walls being covered with modern sheet material - I don't know, maybe to get that oh so flat look.

Graining and marbleizing I've seen on columns and other elements but no plastered walls that I know of in these parts although I have seen it on wood plank walls and bedsteads.

As far as washes, I think, what could be better than a good ol' whitewash for in the stall or down the cellar, or in that gri - that mill. Also in rooms where not a lot time is spent, where the wash would rub off on your shoulder if you brushed against it, and yet where every few years or so, when it needed it, or yearly out there in the stall at the spring cleaning, one could easily mix up and slap on a fresh coat, and on the ceiling. And the whitewash I like best is the simplest, just a kilo of lime powder and a liter of rain water mixed together. Maybe some skimmed-off milk or a bit of casein powder in there if it is in a room that is more lived in like a kitchen or front room.

Northern hewer, have you ever noticed different wash mixtures for rooms with different uses? The funny thing about whitewash that also struck me in another entry up there is how it is translucent when first put on and then whenever it gets wet, but that at the same time wetting it makes it even stronger or more durable and opaque once it dries out again. It is the damnedest thing.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/11 01:19 AM

Hi don and others tonight:

typical historical finishes

Walls----

kitchens--beaded vertical or horizontal wide pine boards topped with a nice molding--boards could be washed with a red ochre paint stain--no additional sealing--above this wainscoating just the plastered wall surface usually left the lime white until such time as it needs refreshening, then maybe paint would be in order

floors----

wide 1.25|" thick t&g pine boards surface nailed, sealed with cedar oil yearly to harden the surface

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/11 01:57 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Well excuse me for getting carried away on wall surfaces but I am sure there are more than a few souls out there that appreciate an off shoot subject that really is part of the timberframing picture no matter if it is a home or outbuilding or maybe a high end drive shed with living quarters in one end for the hired help to call home.

We had a good example of this type of structure at UCV it was the Robertson driveshed it was 4 bays, the one end bay was a lovely living quarters, with a fireplace suitable for food preparation and heating, 2 centre bays for carriages, and the opposite end was a 3 stall horse barn, the centre section was ground floor, while the 2 ends were raised floors. The area over the tie beams was floored and contained grainaries, and hay storage areas, we used it extensively for drying some of our better grades of lumber from the muley saw mill.

It was a great area to cure slowly the fresh cut lumber, which after about 4 to 5 years could be used by the cabinet maker to create his hand made creations.

Before I leave for the night I am going to throw out a request from any one of you for a special subject that you might want answers to. If I can't answer it I am sure that someone out there can.

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/11 05:22 AM

I was going to ask about this anyway...

How often do you see exposed timber in historic structures? The only timber framed buildings in Central Indiana aside from barns are very old churches, and in those there is no evidence that they are timber framed at all.
The timbers are lathed and plastered over, never to be seen again.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/11 02:39 AM

Hello D L

Well DL some churches do have exposed beams in the ceilings, but if you want to see lovely timber framing just climb up in the attics above the lath and plaster and you will see some of the most beautiful original timber trusses, that are not weathered and just there for the viewing, here again you have to have the oportunity and permission to be able to probe around in these old structures.

When The TTRAG met in Morrisburg a few years ago I hosted them through UCV historic site, and I had set up the itinerary for the group to enter the attic of Christ Church to view the Lovely timber trusses that were exposed in the attic, these trusses held up the gothic ceiling of the sanctuary, and you can see just how the gradual arch of the ceiling was formed on the underside of the trusses,

It is a marvel to see the huge trusses fabricated using white oak, and sit there and imagine the order of construction and try to theorize how they were put together and raised in their present position,

This church was built in 1820 well before any modern equipment was available.

Another structure that I visited and photographed was the lutheran church in Williamsburg Ontario Canada built in 1865 The trusses in the attic are spectracular spanning 40 feet and fabricated using all hand hewn timber.

The trusses look like they were just hewn yesterday

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/11 09:21 AM

Hi Richard,

The Williamsburg church with the 40ft span is quite a timber design engineering challenge and so I think that we would probably all like to see one of your photos of this roof truss please.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/11 01:25 AM

Hi Ken

Thanks for coming on board, I will try and see if I have any pics loaded into photobucket, if not it may be a while but I will try to oblige if I can

I do have some good photos if I can get them arranged to post

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/11 05:55 AM

I would love to see those pictures, NH.

But in my question I was wondering about interior finishes in homes other than plain plaster.

Here's some to ponder:







Notice on that last one the curious tiled object. It is a Kachelofen, a tile oven. The procedure of using these is to get them very hot on the inside in the morning, and the thermal mass of the whole unit will slowly diffuse the heat during the day. Supposedly they can heat an entire house for a day with just a small handful of wood.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/11 01:14 AM



Hello everyone tonight


Well here is a shot of one of the wooden Garrison Carriages that I am working on

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/11 03:21 AM

Is that a 12 pounder?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/11 03:05 AM

Hi everyone tonight

I was just reviewing the posts above and noticed that ken had shown an interest in the 40 foot trusses in the Williamsburg Church and their construction, well just to catch up,--

The trusses are constructed similar to a bridge truss and are really strong,in fact the last truss from the south stone wall supports not only the ceiling's 40 foot span, but a good share of the weight of the spire which is supported equally on the stone wall and the first truss.

There are running length wise over the upper surfaces of the trusses hewn timbers that serve as purlins in other timberframes, they in turn support the rafters that seem to rise independent of the trusses but in reality are taking the roof's weight, including the present heavy snow loads

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/11 08:51 AM

Hi Richard,

Did you forget the digi pic ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/11/11 02:43 AM

Hi Ken

Sorry about the pics, I did look back at the reecords that I have and unfortunately I was using my camcorder at the time and the record is in that format not easy to pass around, or work with.

So for the time being I guess that my documentary is the best that I can provide, unless at some point in time I can lecture and use video format like I used at Montebello or the Morrisburg TTRAG gathering.

Always nice to hear from you

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/11 01:19 AM

Hello everyone tonight

I just finished my project and now to tune up my tools

I am going to have to replace my small mallet which received some bad scars--I was just wondering what is your preferences of wood for this particular job.

I was planning to use a hard maple blank that I have had stored away for some time but I thought that I would ask you guys what your preferences are

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/11 01:59 PM

My personal mallets are oak heads. They have lasted for years and years....
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/11 02:21 PM

Hello,
I guess regardless you will use that hard maple because you have set it aside, it is nice and seasoned, maple is resistant to denting, at least tangentially to the growth axis, it is easily obtainable and probably where you are maple is commonly used for this purpose.

Here in this area maple is not a common choice for a mallet, beech is, for many of the same reasons.

The mallet I have been using for some years now is a piece of ash stem with a branch coming off of it at a more or less 90° I have cut to form the grip. This leaves an extended amount of continuous grain and is very strong. It took some getting used to the asymmetrical weight of the thing because its form is organic and not contrived. Also, I have a nice solid mallet from hornbeam, (Carpinus betulus), I picked up from a guy in Krakow, Pl.

Some other woods good for mallets are, black elder and birch root. The wood from the root of many trees would make excellent hammers as long as they were solid and not laminated. I always try and salvage root wood if I can manage it.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/11 03:39 PM

A little something like this:
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/11 01:07 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Great responses, You are never too old to learn for sure, those are great suggestions and cover a large part of the interests of those who might be looking in.

My father really liked basswood for certain jobs because it doesn't seem to have growth rings so to speak, and will not splinnter--for mallets I don't know never tried it.

Oak is not my favorite but I do believe that for mallets it should not be straight grained but really of rough growth, growth habitat is the key here I would say.

Any one else care to add a comment



NH
Posted By: Waccabuc

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/19/11 05:25 PM

Good suggestions from Don in Holland and a good pic too. I used an ironwood mallet (via references in Eric Sloane's books) of branch and stem.It was strong & tough but it wasn't heavy enough. All ironwood I've kept for use seems to get punky and rot in 7 - 10 yrs.
I love basswood aka linden, for the nectar-loaded blossoms for the honeybees, as well as for the carveable,light, soft wood. Good for making lightweight boxes, not good for mallets
I'll look up elder for Don's elder root. We've got elderberries here. Alder maybe?
I'll go along w sugar maple, with a good curly grain. American elm is a top choice - really fibrous twisty grain, so difficult to split. I made 2 that have been in use for 30 yrs. One has a chunk split off one face. Think what are toughest woods to split, what don't you like to see as fat ones to have to split for the stove?
A curly pc of Amer cherry could be good too.
I think cherry will "ring" when dry & hard, more than elm, which is more "dead" and will absorb shock better.

Those leather-faced iron mallets w wood handles by Garland of Saco, Maine are hard to beat - good weight and balance and shock absorbing. Leathers are replaceable if you ever wear them out or if you leave one where your puppy can get it and chew it to mush.
Steve
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/19/11 09:05 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well once again great responses--I actually never thought about ironwood it grew abundantly here a few years ago but like other types are beginning to get scarce- a good suggestion though!!

wild apple wood was another type of wood that has a very tight grain and might be a good suggestion also.

I believe that any type that you finally go to use needs to be well dried and cured to be of good service

Thanks to you all for coming on board, I hope we have been of service to those that might be following this thread--I AM LEARNING AS WELL

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/20/11 02:56 AM

I like sugar maple for wedges, because it can take a beating without splitting or collapsing. It has great compression strength. I was splitting a hickory log, made some wedges from its branches and used them for a while, then cut down a maple sapling nearby and made some wedges. The hickory ones would last for about one drive, then they were toast. I never destroyed the maple ones. They were beaten with a steel hammer...

I tried walnut once just because I was in need of a mallet for a little bit and had some dry walnut firewood handy. not a good idea. walnut shatters. It worked for what I needed it for, but not much else (It got demoted to a can crusher)

Wild apple? ever tried hawthorn? I bet it would do the trick!

As a side note, we have been working on an old TF house, with about 3 inches under the floor between the wood and the dirt. We had to replace the joists and the sill on some spots. The sill is white oak (I think, it is very hard to tell)

The house is of generally poor quality. The joints are loose and poorly crafted. I suspect it was a hastily built setters cabin (the early settlers around me were Amish, so they build frames not log cabins. The non-Amish settlers in our area built log cabins)

To fight against rot and mold, we covered the ground with a generous helping of agricultural lime.

We also use ag lime in barns and such places with dirt floors to harden the ground. "poor man's concrete". In our horse barn the stalls all have lime underneath them to make the ground very hard (so a skid loader can clean them out easily) yet provide drainage unlike concrete. Lime is one thing people don't know about these days that is worth considering. The ground in our barns is certainly very hard and tough because of it. My Grandpa when he built the barns did not want to use concrete as he thought that it would be messier and, more importantly, be hard on the horses' legs.

What would limewashing timbers do for rot resistance? I know that in some cases in the old days wood would be whitewashed to keep it dry, I wonder how well this works? would giving exposed timbers a good lime wash help them last longer?

I have seen many times in my research the Swiss all-wood exterior timber framed houses with a whitewashed finish inside and out. Might this be part of the reason? I wonder...

Could whitewashing joints and places that might be vulnerable to moisture travel or condensation be beneficial?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/21/11 12:51 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well DL thanks for coming on board with more good choices for mallets, I had no idea about some of the suggestions, but all are good in my book!

The second part to your thread is very interesting and I would like to tell you a story that might answer some of the questions you are asking.

To begin I would like to travel back a few years--At UCV when all the Historic buildings were reconstructed,(about 1960) part of the work on each building was to reconstruct the window
sash(es). Good C select pine was used for the work and as the years rolled by about every 10 to 12 years nearly all had to be reconstructed eventho they were well taken care of and painted etc it was a yearly maintenance headache.

Now to expand on this my father about 1946 built a new barn and from the pine logs on the property, he had constructed 6 light sash for the barn at a local sash and door factory--that is now 64 years ago. These sash are still in use and going strong.

I put this question to some experts in the field, and their reply was that the use of mill run pine (heart wood) and the yearly White washing with lime and no exterior paint, lead to their longevity--the lime actually kept the rot at bay, and the bare wood could take the weathering.

I hope this information finds its way to the restoration experts manual because it sure works wonders, and I hope it answersyour questions

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/21/11 01:40 AM

Thanks for the response, certainly actual experience is more valuable than saying 'yes, I believe it works'

I know that paint can work well for a few years, but after that it can make matters worse by holding the water against the wood and not letting it evaporate. Even if it is good and fresh on the outside, if there is any separation between paint and wood (even a microscopic one) than it makes things worse rather than protecting.

With this in mind, I shall be sure and whitewash or at least lime wash my wood.

One question, was the whitewashing interior and exterior?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/22/11 02:14 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi again DL, no the whitewashing was strictly on the interior.

The sash were primed and painted in the beginning so the exterrior of the sash did start out painted, I remember helping my father in the light of a kerosine lanern puttying and installing the glass, nearly 70 years ago now.

The sash up in the hay mows though did not receive any whitewash, and were never repainted, they are still there and in pretty good shape today.

It always amazed me that in 1960 during the reconstruction of UCV,s historic stuctures, the historic architect could still find examples of original trim in the area, which at that time would have been well over 100 years of age.

Each building had its own unique trim style, and to reconstruct it faithfully a set of shaper blades had to be hand crafted to create new sections. The window muttons were a good example each alittle different in some way. The trim around the edge of the roof was another, in some cases there were 5 or 6 complete runs of trim to create the roof edges.

Another characteristic was the chimney styles, and the size and colour of the bricks or stone whatever the case might have been

Once again enjoy everyone

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/22/11 06:35 PM

One thing I guess I don't understand, how does whitewash on the interior protect from rot?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/23/11 02:31 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi DL

Well the whitewash is lime and water mixture a good disinfectant and will kill bacteria, so--lets review a bit

On the interior of a barn which has a high moisture content and in most cases the walls being not insulated will sweat.

Now remember the windows are single pane glass which in cold weather will collect frost an inch thick on cold days, then along comes a warm spell and everything is wet

This barn had no fans for about 45 years of its life and saw many of these wet cycles, but every year the interior was whitewashed early each spring

I was told by the experts, that it was due to these yearly whitewashing cycles that the funguses were not given the chance to create rot

I hope this answers your question

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/24/11 04:27 AM

So you posit that the problem of rotting out of windows originates with the interior moisture?

I am wondering about all of this because of a wall system I am working on. see here for details: http://www.tfguild.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25255&page=3
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/11 01:48 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi DL

Just to summarize just alittle further

Remember that we are talking about a dairy barn not a house--very different situations, normally homes do not have high interior moisture content so no interior rotting would take place--these sash would look excellent on the inside, but the outside or exterior surfaces would be the one that would rot from moisture.

Even painted the esterior surfaces would be suseptible if the paint layers cracked and allowed moisture to get trapped underneath, in this case the sash would last alot longer without paint just bare wood

take the case of wood shingles, they actually never rot but wear away from the friction of the water running and dripping from row to row.

horizontal or vertical wood siding is another example better left bare, not so niceto look at but weather hardy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/11 02:55 AM

NH, I see what you mean. I was not thinking about the dairy barn application in contrast to a home.

Perhaps if we humans lived in stalls like cows there might be higher moisture content in our homes? But fortunately we like to discard our waste immediately.

Europeans seem to universally paint their timbers when a buildings is infilled, might this have to do more with the tendency of the interface between wood and infill to hold moisture to the wood?
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/11 07:11 PM

Hello,

It wasn't that long ago that people lived in open spaces adjoining the stall.

Here where I'm living, right now on these winter days, moisture collects and condenses and at times drips down the window panes and the wood becomes wet.

So the painter will overlap the glass by a millimeter giving a bridge to shed the water. Then the problem becomes the carpenter's who will make troughs and profiles and openings to guide the water outside. Maybe there are better solutions.

The inside edges of a window sash with its munitions are profiled in order to shed this water. Even the Shakers who mostly avoided superfluous profiling knew the function it served on windows. Personally I learnt about it when I built my work shop. In an effort at simplicity I left the inside window edges angular and then watched water pool there on those flat surfaces.

The joinery techniques for windows can also be specifically adapted, using draw-boarding and avoiding glue which creates a vapor barrier and using bridle joints where they can be used at the bottom corners in place of mortise and tenon will facilitate moisture exchange.

That moisture is always there and comes mostly from the people (or other sentient beings) who are in the rooms. It will migrate to the coolest surfaces which in rooms with single glazing will be the windows. This can be an advantage because otherwise those cool surfaces might just be somewhere, as the writer DL Bahler points out, like where the timbers come up against the infill or the window jam meets the brick or other inaccessible places. When these are covered with the wrong paints or sealed with a polymer the moisture accumulates, when the temperature gets right bacteria and insects get active and damage the wood which can eventually need to be fixed.

No, I don't think a limewash will solve all the problems though it has its place and I also think that certain approaches to fixing perceived problems maybe lead to their own inherent disadvantages. Could be a conceptual problem instead of false action.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/01/11 12:53 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for the comments----- an engineer told me one time that it takes views from all angles to figure out the best approach to any problem------

In my latest project I had to drill holes through the sides of the Wooden Garrison Carriage for 1" bolts to pass through, these sides run at angles to one another (not parallel. These timbers were 6" in thickness and were about 36" apart.

For the sake of others looking in what kind of a proceedure would you use to ensure that the holes were straight enough so that the !" threaded rods would pass through unhindered from side to side. They also passed through a channel in a 6" timber spanner that held the sides at a proper width and could be really tight.

I have many years experience but found this quite challenging considering the tools that I have which was a 1/2" drill and a 16" ship auger.

I would like to consider the solution using the tools that i have which would probably be in line with what most people have in their arsenal

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/01/11 01:06 AM

what procedure did you use NH? sounds like a tricky one.

One possible solution is to cut a block with an angled side to match the carriage sides, so that when placed against the timbers the sides of the blocks would be parallel (I don't know how clear my description is?) These blocks could be held in place opposite each other, and would give you parallel reference faces for the purposes of marking and drilling. Then when you do drill, just go through both the block and the frame.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/03/11 12:57 AM

Hi everyone tonight;

Thanks for jumping in DL and a good starting point.

As you go for (hopefully) the right proceedure remember that you have only one try and spoiling the processed timber is not an option

DL I take it that you are suggesting going from the outside surface on one side and then progressing toward the other side, that would be a distance of 36" , do you think that you would exit where you want to or just hoping?

Remember also that the 1" threaded rod will not bend even a little bit so the hole has to be straight and true from side to side

I am not ready to share the proceedure I took yet I need some more solutions to come in first, so lets have some more input from you guys,

Thanks in advance

Have fun and learn

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/03/11 02:31 AM

My thought was to drill each side independently by carefully marking the positioning of the holes, and using the blocks to ensure the drill goes in at the proper angle
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/11 02:58 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well it doesn't look like anyone else is going to put their views forward on how they would tackle this drilling problem and as I said just using ordinary tools nothing special

How I did it was to use a slightly larger auger to allow for some error, and I drilled from the inside outward using the channel in the spanner as a guide for the drill, this seemed to work well for me.

Thanks for coming on board

enjoy and learn

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/11 08:42 AM

Hi Richard,

I have keenly been awaiting some answers on how this would be achieved but confess that I don't quite follow your explanation - a little sketch might help.

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/10/11 01:54 AM

hello everyone tonight

Ken I am not much good at posting sketches but with a little imagination I will try our best to clarify

The sides run at angles separated by a 6" spanner, I noted that the !" bolt will run in a channel located in the spanner.

I decided to use the channel as a guide for boring the holes through the exterior vertical timber walls

Knowing perfectly well that there could be some error I decided to use a slightly larger diameter auger, and a good thing I did because the ship augers are famous for not boring really straight, at least that is my observations from experience

The auger did wander a bit even after carefully lining up , and carefully sharpening before I used it.

I hope this helps

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/12/11 03:13 AM

Hi everyone tonight

Thanks for coming on board and those that are visiting the site

I had one last problem to overcome in shaping the various pieces for the garrison carriages, I had to put rounded axles on the ends of the fairly large timbers to accomodate the cannon wheels

The timbers were 10 by 12" white oak, and the rounded portions were 13" long 5" in diameter.

Of course I had no large lathe, just my experience and ingenuity to accomlish the task. Keep n mind that the wheels only had to slide on snuggly!

Now for the sake of those that want to learn lets hear some ways that you might take to go ahead with this problem

Have fun

Learn

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/11 01:38 AM

hello everyone tonight

There doesn't seem to me to be any one venturing a method to get this job done so lets go a different direction--

I am asking anyone and everyone to rate this job on a scale of 1 to 10 in degrees of difficulty

I am trying to make this a learning experience so lets get going

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/11 06:33 PM

I am afraid I don't quite understand the scenario, and perhaps I am not the only one? Maybe with a bit more clarification and perhaps some illustrations some of us might be more willing to hazard a guess?

thanks

DLB
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/11 01:26 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming on board DL

Maybe I am naieve but I really didn't think that putting rounded axles on the ends of large timbers was too hard to comprehend, I tried to explain it as best I could sorry if I did not come across clear enough

I guess that over the years I have come to marvel at the workmanship of our forefathers, taking forgranted that they accomplished many complicated projects without the use of electricity and power tools

I Put this quiz out to test the ingenuity of this site's followers, to see what solutions to accomplish this task they would use if it was put in their hands to carry out

I have not said no power tools but just basic tools, and I might add historic tools if one has them and can use them.

So having hopefully clarified things a bit lets again try to get some methods to go ahead with this project

|Have fun learn

NH


Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/11 04:23 AM

I went back and looked at the picture of your carriage, now I understand

The rounded sections, I suppose, would by necessity be the same piece of wood as the square sections, correct? This creating a static axle, where only the wheels turn. At any rate, that seems like it would be the strongest way to make it to me.

I suppose my method would probably be something along the lines of This: I would first make the ends octagonal by cutting away at the corners, to lines marked in from them to create 8 similar faces. I would then repeat the process on each of the new corners making a somewhat more circular section with 16 faces. From this point, I would probably take the drawknife and shave away at it and smooth it down to round. To ensure it is truly circular and the proper diameter, I would maybe make a simple jig consisting of 2 pieces of wood held at a certain distance apart, and then use this something like calipers to check the diameter all around.

This could all be accomplished with tools as simple as chisels, drawknives, and perhaps a good carving axe. A hand saw might be handy to make good shoulders.

this is just off the top of my head how I would do it, there may be a better way but this makes sense to me.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/11 12:27 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi DL thanks for coming back with a good constructing scenario I am sure that many will enjoy it.

I hope that someone else now will come on board with their version or technique

My dad always said there was more than one way to do everything and through my career working with many carpenters I found this to be very true. I personally was always learning new tricks just by good observation watching other good tradesmen carry difficult jobs through to the finish.

This is much the same thing so lets have fun and learn



NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/22/11 01:01 AM

Hello everyone tonight


Well I am still waiting for someone else to come on board

Lets try and put a new twist to this construction project

Lets have fun

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/11 12:10 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well for those that are waiting here is how I accomplished this task---

1)--I cut out 5" diameter discs from 1/2" ply and
2)--I positioned these discs on the ends of the timbers
3)--I then scribed shoulder lines around the square timbers 13" from the ends
4)--placing my skilsaw on the top of the timber I dropped the blade to the depth of the top of the plywood disc
5)--I made multiple cuts approx spaced .5" starting at the end of the timber and working back to the shoulder lines
6)--after that I took my small adze and with the poll i quickly knocked away all the material
7)--I then smoothed up the surface with the adze

I repeated this on each surface and in the end what was left was a 5" square protruding from the end of the timber 13"long

8)--I then took the adze and roughly removed the corners on the protruding square
9)--I made up a half round from plywood of a 5" circle and used it as a guide to smooth up the surface using a wood rasp

10)--very quickly i ended up with a nice round axle of 5" in diameter and 13" long

Thanks for looking in

I hope that this exercise will be useful to someone at sometime in their life--just store it away

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/11 01:32 AM

HELLO everyone tonight

please note that I have a new Email address for those that might want to contact me---check my profile
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/11 07:27 AM

Hello,

A peculiar and different sort of axe just came my way. This one is intended to perform a very specific and limited function. The specialization is what makes this particular axe intresting I think. There are larger versions used for rough hewing, though the one here, about half a meter long, is used to maintain interior walls of log buildings in Finland. In that sense not really a hewing axe at all but something more like a carving axe. Actually, difficult to say how one would characterize it as these axes and their function are unique.





This last picture is looking down the belly of the heft at the heel side of the beard, if I can use a little axe jargon.
(I've got more over there on the web site for anyone interested.)
Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/11 04:53 PM

Don, nice axe! Certainly unique to us, though I am sure in its particular region it is not all that unusual.

I have a particular interest in 'odd' axes.

I made a revision this past week to my own hewing setup, the setup for when I am working by myself.

Previously, I had my timbers set up higher, at a height that is comfortable for cleaning up with the broadaxe, but I changed my whole method.

Typically in the past I have done all of my hewing in the woods, but with my new setup I am altering that a little bit.

I have switched to doing only the rough squaring off in the woods, hewing them about a half inch over size, and with a bit of a rhombus shape since I am not leveling out the sides yet.

This work, notching and juggling, is done with my big Austrian rough hewing axe

to work with this axe, I set the logs low to the ground. A general guideline might be putting the center of the log about 4 to 6 inches below knee height. I notch while standing on the log, and cut out the waste from beside the log.

It's then that I take the now squared off timbers up out of the woods and haul them off to my shop.

For this next step, I use my nice Breitbeil


What I do here is I set the timbers up fairly high, maybe about waste height or a little lower. I mark 2 faces at once to be cleaned up, with lines snapped on top and below and shave away at the face until it matches both lines fairly closely. Doing it this way, I don't have to worry if the timber is perfectly level when I finish it off. The Germans would use a board with a plumb bob attached to check the straightness of hewn faces. here all I need is a straightedge to line up the two snapped lines.

working this high, I have a lot more control over my axe and it is easy to keep it from breaking out the lower edge. It is also very important to work the axe in a circular motion, pulling it toward you when cutting. This means you are doing more cutting than chopping, which leaves a nicer finish and won't tear out edges.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/17/11 04:10 PM

Hello,
A few first impressions after a go with the Finnish axe... No set-up involved here, just went at it to have a little fun.






Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/17/11 09:09 PM

Hi Don,

Check out :-

http://www.kfhume.freeserve.co.uk/pages/publicationspages/finland2001pages/finland2001frame.htm

where you will see a Finnish hewer with his favourite axe.

The surface finish produced by him is identical to that which you have achieved shown above.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/09/11 01:52 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks ken and others for the technical information that you have posted for everyone to enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/10/11 01:58 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Just a quick question

As I was growing up working with my father and remembering his construction comments, one that stuck in my mind for all these years I would like to share with you and maybe get some comments

His theory was that laminated carrying beams were stronger than solid ones providing that the materials were selected properly--

What do you well educated and \or well experienced builders out there think of this

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/10/11 05:02 PM

when stick framing, we use laminated beams for large spans that wont have the support of a stud wall underneath. These are made of many layers of wood pressed and glued together.

Such laminates are tremendously stronger than a solid piece of wood for a number of reasons, the chief of which is there are many layers of varying grain structure instead of one single grain structure as in a solid timber.

However, it is my personal belief that such have not as long of a lifespan as a solid timber. The glue compounds that hold it together break down over time, and I suspect that after a time of maybe 100 years they will have lost a significant amount of their strength. When building a modern stick frame, this is something of a non-issue as the frame itself will have deteriorated similarly. However, in a timber frame I would say this fact makes the use of laminates something I would avoid.

DLB
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/11/11 01:37 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks DL for your input in reference the laminated and glued beams, I have also worked with them from time to time, but I am referring to beams built up with layers of say 2 or 3 inch material--ie a 10"by12" rectangular beam made up from 5--2"by 12" planks nailed together with arddox nails or in one case I had to use hardened steel nails (cement nails), maybe someone would like to comment

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/22/11 01:55 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Kimboy

I don't know exactly what you are talking about but thanks for coming on board and offering help

Really I was enquiring about the load carrying characteristics of laminated beams and posts versus solid timber, pretty straight forward I think

I would be glad to have input from anyone no matter where they are from or their background

Thanks again

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/24/11 01:43 AM

Hello everyone tonight

I used a double bitted axe for many years in scoring and chopping displays, I always found it well balanced and accurate in the strikes.

I am just wondering if any of you also used or found these axes pleasing to use

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/24/11 07:02 PM

I've always been a bit nervous of them, though I haven't ever been able to come up with a logical reason why! I can't recall ever once hitting myself on accident with the pol of a large axe. Now I have done so with smaller axes and hatchets working on joinery, but never with a big one.

That said, I could certainly see some advantages to the tool, always having 2 different striking surfaces suited to different tasks.

However, I am heading somewhat in the opposite direction seeking to acquire an axe with a very narrow bit (2 to 3 inches) for notching.

Myabe, NH, with a little convincing on your part I could be persuaded to try a double bit axe some time...

It interests me the ways people use different tools and methods to accomplish the same task. I think that is a good thing, and am in no way in favor of developing any kind of 'standard' practice for hewing, joint cutting, or whatever else.

DLB
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/25/11 02:10 PM


Hey DL -

I've long used a Double-bit as one of my primary axes, an old four pound Plumb, and like you suggest above, I filed one of the edges far thinner than the other for a deeper bite, and left one factory fat for the stems that seem to be grabby and tend to get you stuck.

I use this as my scoring ax when hewing, (but juggle with a 5 lb jersey pattern) and it has over the years made some partners in two-man scoring a "bit" nervous, but have never had any mishaps. It actually makes for less bit damage when an occasional contact between the axes happens.

I bought it because it had plenty of life left, and was obviously good steel. Now I wouldn't want to hew without it, and would recommend one to anybody serious about axe-work.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/26/11 01:47 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming on board with the replies and positive feed back, I also kept one edge filed and maintained for chopping with a thinner blade, a bit flatter on the cutting edge than the other one which I kept rounder for more dangerous and uncertain spots

Nh
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/29/11 03:33 PM

Hello Richard, nice to see this topic raised again, I mean the broader topic but also the double bitted axe topic. You make a good point about the particular balance of these symmetrical, straight handled axes. For me, this makes them an easier axe to use. I am using a double bitted axe that I found out in the desert once for hewing, mostly doing the juggling part, now and then for scoring and less frequently for surfacing.

Could you elaborate on the different edge grinds you are using. I am guessing that the thinner edge grind you mention gives you this elliptical or banana shaped bevel. But I mean, when do you use one and not the other, what is the effect, that sort of thing. Just interested in your experience. Thanks.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/30/11 12:46 AM

Hello everyone tonight


Hi Don and other looking in and showing interest in this topic, one of my favorites mext to hand hewing and creating wooden timber frames

Juggling or I refer to as "notching" in preparation for broadaxing is a pretty important function, to do it properly you need a good axe with a thin blade to get good penetration, and you need a fairly flat edge --not too rounded so that as you lay down the last set of scores approx 3 inches apart you are not penetrating unnecessarily deep into the underlying layers that make up the surface of the hewn timber.

The other blade can be more rounded, and used for clearing an area around a standing tree in preparation for felling with the two man crosscut saw--(pre chain saw era)--or chain saw--around these parts 1950's

I hope this helps explain my axe style and reasoning, besides that it is the way I was taught by my father--Ross, and his father Robert-- before him

The best of the day to you all and enjoy your time to the fullest
because time has an awful habit of speeding up after 40

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/26/11 01:51 AM

Well hello everyone tonight

It sure is nice to see that someone else has taken up the reigns in regard to teaching our younger generation the art of hewing--I spent a good deal of my life doing just that.

To the student---Just have an open mind about the style that is presented by your instructor and be attentive and learn the style taught without questioning--there are many different ways to do everything--that is one thing that I was taught a good many moons ago

NH
Posted By: vapo083

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/11 08:33 AM

THANK
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/03/11 12:10 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well we have had many good discussions covering many subjects on this thread, but closest to my heart is using the broadaxe styled closest to what the pioneers in this part of the world used, and the carpenters adze. You could include carving out a new offset broadaxe handle if you would like--there is nothing like a handmade handle for an old historic tool whether you are going to use it or just dislay it

I am offering a great addition to your library roster or educational centre depending on your needs--look on the "tools forum" for more details

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/16/11 12:02 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well I have a new discussion thread one that I have pondered about for some time now, not really knowing the reasoning behind the technique.
About 30 years ago I was given the task of reproducing a 3 bay english barn at Ucv.

At that time a good example became known to our Historic Group and it turned out that it had been constructed about 1800 in the area west of Iroquois Ontario along the St Lawrence River by the founding UEL's that were arriving to settle the area.

I began to document the framework taking very close attention to details that included the rectangular timbers (rather than Square) that were used in the walls, and their orientaions.,the size of the braces which also turned out to be rectangular with all hewn surfaces.

It was a feature of the braces that really threw me--their seatings both on the posts,the plates and girts did not follow the framing lines but rather sloped from their heels to the seating line.

This unusual framing detail was reproduced faithfully in the new reconstruction at UCV, creating a real challenge for my well trained staff.

I wonder if any of you have ran across this unusual framing detail

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/16/11 02:55 AM

Are you referring to a diminished haunch? I will see if I can get a pic loaded to Photobucket and post back in a few minutes.
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/16/11 03:05 AM

I could not, as usual, get anywhere with photobucket. I believe what you are talking about is referred to as a diminished haunch. The Dutch barns I am working on have diminished haunches on the braces, and wherever a beam meets a post. This is a scribe rule trait. When scibing the brace to the post, you would have a standard dimension that you diminish the haunch. In the barn I'm working on now, it is about one inch. There are scribe marks down the posts that you could line up your gauge at zero at the top of the mortise, and one inch at the bottom. Hard to describe. I will try a sketch of this, but I don't know how to share it when P bucket is not cooperating.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/17/11 01:26 AM

Hi Dave:

Thanks for replying to my query

Isn't it something that you are working on a frame with that particular characteristic.

I was very interested in your reply especially now that I have the term that describes that type of detail thanks to you.

We struggled as we put our frame together to ensure that this feature was reproduced as closely as possible.

It sounds like you have the techniques worked out to create these diminished haunches my hat off to you and for sharing with everyone.

In your opinion what is the advantage of using a "diminished haunch" over braces with their ends following the seating lines.

There has to be some sort of reason, but I am at a loss to know what it is

Do you find diminished haunches hard to work with?

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/17/11 01:44 AM

I like the diminished haunches. I've been working almost exclusively with scribe rule for a while now, and when I have to work with square rule, I feel like the reductions and housings are a pain. The haunches are not a problem, it makes no difference really whether you make a shoulder parallel to the face of the timber, or at an angle. The diminished haunch gives you more bearing on the end of a brace or the bottom of a beam. Without it, you just have the tenon supporting the load, no shoulder. In square rule, the housing is parallel, and you get the same effect on the bottom as the diminished haunch.

I will have to work on getting some pics loaded up so I can show you better how the layout is done. In scribe rule of course you have to do a full layout, and the mortises would have been cut first, and the brace or beam laid over the mortise, and the shoulder would be laid out by putting a square across the top and sighting down to the layout marks on the mortise. Hard to describe in print. Scribe rule is easier when doing it the first time, but scribing in new or repaired parts takes more time, and more test fits. I have pics somewhere of a new corner post that I had to scribe into a wall assembly, then flip it up on it's side and scribe it into the gable as well. Took a bit of time and not a good place for a mistake.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/18/11 12:25 AM

Hi Dave

Thanks for the explanation, but you sort of lost me in the second paragraph.

I suppose that we are not discussing similar situations I mean that I always was using hewn material with rough side faces that required the braces to be housed a certain amount, we always precut our braces using brace measure lengths for certain length braces in most situations, but for a diminished housing it required some adjustment due to the sloping haunch, and in my books whether it is a sloping haunch or regular type of brace with a parallel face the pressure of building movement would be handled the same in both cases

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/11 06:53 PM

Hello,

Would this be anything like the joint in question?



Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/11 12:23 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Yes Don that is exactly like the braces that I described earlier and has been labeled as diminished haunches.

Thanks for posting

I really cannot think of a reason for forming this type of framing detail, in my opinion it is alot more work to create and for what end?

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/11 10:51 PM

Don, is that a magical shaman from the northern hinder lands painted on the post?

NH, I don't typically use a haunch on brace work. But I do find a haunch for the housing easier to cut as Dave points out. The aspect I like is the grain is sloping the right direction. No squirrelly grain to deal with, null and void, as is possible with square housings. I call it "pat the cat", pat most cats the wrong way and they get irritated.

Well, the grain isn't sloping but the cut in relation to the grain allows you to shave nice smooth cuts.

Is this page/thread getting too long? It is always weird to load.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/22/11 12:01 AM

Hello everyone tonight

thanks for coming on board Timbeal and the comments on the point in question, and now I am going to ask another favour:

Could you or Dave explain to me your proceedure for cutting the diminished haunch angle, I suspect that you would do the braces first and then the matching angle on the post or beam, or visa versa.

When we were reconstructing the Barn at UCV we did the braces and then fitted the brace's feet to the sides of the post or beam what ever the case may be, until everything was square, it seemed to be quite a bit of extra work.

We were using 4 by 6" hewn white ash copying the size of the originals

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/22/11 07:50 AM

Hello,

Timbeal, there are so many possible responses to your speculations given the relation of the projecting brace to the shadowy figure, but I'm not even going to go there. I will state though that from now on I will not be able to go to that corner of the barn with a neutral mind-set.

Regarding the joinery, to me this is a completely standard, logical and even visually pleasing joint in its entirety. And as the question by Richard was a pointed one, I'll just add for now that in the way I have learned to cut it, all the lay-out is done prior to any cuts being made.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/22/11 09:47 AM

Don, truly at first I thought it was a picture of the famous amanita mushroom collector, but after closer speculation it reminded me of something I had seen in my grandfathers shed, the place where he cleaned his paint brushed.

Richard, the joint can be cut very easily via square rule, one solution. No mystery, with the exception of Dons picture.
Posted By: Will Truax

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/11 12:10 AM


NH - I'm a bit puzzled as to how these represent extra work, no harder to layout and particularly easy to cut with hand tools, the bulk of the waste removable with a small side ax.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/11 01:39 AM

Good evening everyone

Well thanks for all the varying explanations, I guess that our experiences probably are a result of never having came across or seen a diminished haunch that is until I examined the barn we reproduced, and then had to reproduce it.

From what I can make out there seems to be some fitting that would need to be done at some point during the fitting up of the frame.

I really was wondering if we were following the only proceedure as I explained above or if one could prefabricate the braces ahead of time, like one can the regular cut braces that follow the framing lines

I must say that I am a bit puzzled yet as far as why one would use a diminished haunch

In my opinion the regular braces would allow more freedom for movement off the frame in very high winds, it seems to me that the dimished haunch's very tight fit along the haunch would place an exceptional amount of strain on the side of the brace, rather that being a compression strain only

I wonder what an engineer might think about this reasoning.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/14/11 01:00 AM

Well Hello everyone tonight

Sorry to have been away for so long, but I was having password problems--finally got the kinks worked out thanks to Joel Mcarty, my hat goes off to you Joel, thanks for keeping at it.

I was just noticing my last post was in October, and I am sure glad to be back on board again.

I have some really good topics coming up so please come back and visit.

Well merry Christmas to everyone, or happy Holidays what ever fits--

As always

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/16/11 02:24 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well great weather here, usually -20F but tonight +50F

Years ago my dad and I would be starting out for the bush to ready the sleighing roads, and cutting ones into new territory

getting the sleigh out hitching up the team and pulling it a few miles on the gravel road to shine up the steel runners, a real must before trying to haul heavy loads through the snow

next getting out the axes, the crosscut saw, the steel wedges, the logging chains, and lastly the peevee, or canthook.

There is nothing better than entering the bush road on a coating of fresh snow, coming upon a group of white tailed deer, and a few wild turkeys, standing out black on the white snow

our agenda would be 40 cords of firewood, 100 cedar posts, and the usual 2 to 3 thousand bd feet of logs

In 1942- my father left to work on the Alaska Highway construction--The reason being to earn enough to construct a new barn. He was gone for 2 years, and when he returned my mother didn't even recognize him when he stepped off the train at the Morrisburg station. His return of course meant that he was in charge as head of the household, a role my mother had held for 2 years, what a change!

In winter of 1944 he along with my uncle cut 22 thousand Bd Ft of logs just with axes and the crosscut saw, along with the usual 40 cords of firewood and fence posts. On our property that meant that everything was removed from the bush lot that would square 4 inches

The nails were hard to get due to the war going on at that time, but we were able to get 2 kegs of square cut nails, and some aluminum nails which came out at that time

By that fall a new barn stood out against the skyline, and I stood in front of it with my duck, I was 5 years old,

I am looking over now at the same barn 70 years later, the same 6 light wood sash in place still in good order, it appears like they will last for another 40 to 50 years. I remember quite well playing in the putty as my father glazed the windows on the table of the old house, in the light of a coal oil lantern

I was just getting ready to start my schooling at SS#10 a one room school up the road that taught all 8 grades in the open room.


Well I hope you enjoy a little look back in time, this seems to be a time for remembrances of years and christmas's gone by

Does anyone like to add their touch I SURE would like to hear your story

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/16/11 09:47 PM

Well hello everyone tonight

Continuing with my remenicents above, I had the opportunity in life to experience and live the hardtimes first hand, in doing so though I learned and was taught some of the basic requirements to survive without much--one thing that we had though was a close family relationship, we pulled together to get through the seemingly endless cold nights, cut off from the outside world for weeks at a time

Hewing timber for a new addition ( a woodshed) took place during these days, I remember going with my dad and picking out the straightest logs, and then watching with wonder as he seemingly worked slowly and methodically with what seemed to me to be a very large axe to square up the framing timbers

These remembrances came back to me as my life unfolded and I had the opportunity to show those that wanted to learn the old craft, as I knew it,--a great feeling--

Father liked to reminise about the days gone by, and some of the old bush stories really got my attention, like the one he told about the horse they had that drew out the logs without any supervision, "just hitched him up and let him go, he loved it" . Hewing railway ties for the railroad construction was another story of course going back another generation to my grandfather's time

These oldtimers were real men--lived for the winter and bush work--and for their horses--loved them with a passion--

Well got to go

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: daiku

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/17/11 03:00 PM

Great stories, Richard. Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: Thane O'Dell

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/17/11 05:51 PM

More stories Please! Love them.
Did your father tell you stories about his time working in Alaska?

Thane
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/17/11 08:47 PM

Hello everryone tonight

Hi Daiku, and Thane thanks for stopping in to this old pelters niIch

Well Thane thanks for asking--by all means he sure did,I knew the names of most of the stations and sites along the Alaska Highway, like Dawson City, Fort St John, Dawson Creek, Carcross, The Liard |Hot springs,--many stories of black bears, living in tents at -50F, the perma frost problems the list went on and of course really held my attention at 6 years old.

I had the opportunity of travelling the full length of the Highway when I retired, what an amazing experience to see the places he had been, and to see the spectacular landscape

Hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/11 03:37 PM

I have one story I could share with you all.

Back in the early 80's I was hauling logs to a local sawmill for a friend. He introduced me to the sawyer.
And this sawyer had many years of experience cutting logs to lumber and harvesting trees to make logs.

While we were waiting for the heater to warm up the hydraulic tank so we could run the mill during the winter time when it was fairly cold at the mill, wed sit in the tool room around the wood stove and wait. During these times Id ask him to tell me a story.

He would tell about getting his truck stuck in the mud and how he and his brother would pull it out.

Hed talk about driving his truck to Boston to deliver three by planks for the forms for building Logan Airport before highway Route 95 was built.

But most of all, I liked the stories hed tell about harvesting logs before chain saws and using heavy equipment that had hydraulics.

One story that is my favorite to tell is when I asked him to describe to me step by step how they did it.

He said that theyd go to the woodlot and pick out the tree that they wanted to fell. They didnt have a chain saw so they would chop with an axe the felling wedge area. This would allow the tree the space it needs to fall off the stump.

To make the back cuts; theyd use a two-man cross cut saw.

Lining up theyd saw the back cut and put in wedges to hold the tree from sitting back down on their saw.

Once the hinge wood was reached, they pound in the wedges and the tree would fall over.

These were eastern white pine trees.

I asked: ok, so now its on the ground, what did you do next?

He said theyd limb it out. That is chop off all the limbs until they reached the top of the tree to an area where the trunk was about 8" in diameter. Most of these limbs would be dead branches and that they would pop off with a single blow with a sharp axe. Now they didnt use a regular axe, but they used a double bladed axe.

I have heard that some people sharpen their double bladed axe heads differently. That is one cutting edge is sharpened for one use and the other is sharpened differently for another use. Im not sure if his was this way or not.

He mentioned that with the right sharpening and a good swing you could chop off one of these dead branches with a single blow. And then follow through just like a golfer would do. But instead of ending at the top of the back swing; youd then continue to swing down to the next neighboring branch. And that you would kind of rock your body left and right; as well as side step to advance up the log from the stump to the tip.

After he described this to me, I went to my tool shed and found one of my fathers double bladed axes and sharpened it up. During one of our regular harvesting jobs I decided Id give it a try.
And I laid down a nice big white pine and then I limbed it out using a double bladed axe using the double chop method. And within a few minutes I was swinging and side stepping my way down the log chopping off all the dead branches. Most of them with a single blow of the axe. It was fast and it did work. I was very proud of myself for learning the old way of doing things.

Chopping off a green live branch was a different story. As they dont usually chop off with a single blow, depending on the size.

I said: ok, so now you have it all limbed out what did you do next.

He said that theyd then site it to see where the bends in the tree were so that they could figure on cutting the straightest logs. They would site it from stump end known as the butt to the top. Then theyd site it from the top to the butt. While walking back and forth theyd pick up a small chip or branch piece and place it on top of the log where they think theyd like to make the cut to make the logs. Kind of like a marker. Theyd move them as they view the log and see where theyd be best for making the most out of the tree.

Back then they didnt use a loggers tape like we have today. Theyd layout the lengths of the logs using a layout stick and a hatchet to mark the spots. A layout stick was a small round branch 4' long. Just small enough so you could hold it in your left hand and light enough to carry easily. The stick would have a ring carved into it at the middle, 2' mark. The ends would both have a ring carved into them 4" from the end. That was so that if they wanted a ten-foot log youd layout two sticks and a half. The four-inch ring was the added trim that every log will have in order to have the extra required by most mills.

So starting at the butt end, youd lay the stick onto the log and chop a small cut at the end of the stick. Just one wack to create a line. Then move up the log and place the end of the stick at this line and make the next line. Move over four inches and make a cut through mark. A cut through mark would be made by making two wacks removing a small piece of bark and exposing the white sapwood against the dark bark, which was very easy to see.

I used the stick to layout logs for many years until we were taught by forester how much wood we were actually wasting using this method. Once logger tapes were used then the stick was retired.

Ok I said, now youve got it marked where youre going to cut it to lengths. How do you cut it to length without a chain saw?

He said that they used the two man cross cut saw again.

Ok, well. I could see that.

But, I asked: when cutting down through a log, and the log is held up at each end the saw kerf would close on the saw blade. Using a chain saw, when we see this wed stop cutting down, and reach the bar under and cut up with the top of the bar. How do you do that with a two man cross-cut saw? You cant cut up the handles would be in the dirt and too long to allow you so pull it back and forth?

He said that I was right that they couldnt saw up. What they had were small, sometimes wooden, wedges in one pocket and a small hammer in the other pants pocket and that theyd saw down from the top on their mark and if the log started to close up on their blade that they insert the wedge and pound it in to hold the kerf open so that they could saw down through and not get their two man cross cut saw stuck in the log.

Ok, so now youve got the log sawn into two pieces and the log dropped a bit when it was cut through and released. This dropping may have shifted the log and you cant get your saw out because it has the handles on each end. How do you get your saw out? I asked.

He said that most two man cross cut saws have one handle on one end held on with a bolt and a wing nut. They would turn out the wing nut, slide the bolt(s) out and take the handle off. Then the thin blade could be pulled through the logs and released to cut again.

So when youre in one of those restaurants that have old long two man cross-cut saws hanging on the wall, take a look at the handles. Ill bet one of them has a wing nut on the bolt.
I have seen some, some do not, so I dont know if the wing nut is on the back side against the wall or whether these werent used in the woods.

Well that my favorite sitting around the wood stove story.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/19/11 02:37 AM

Well hello everyone tonight

Thanks Jim for sharing, and a look back in time, I could follow you through each step, those old stories are sure wonderful reminders of the days gone by

Large pines like the ones you are referring to usually required a soft landing to keep them from damage, we would clear a felling spot and leave the brush to cushion the fall, I expect you did the same thing

I expect there are some that wonder how they handled these large logs without hydraulics, well the old timers were pretty well versed in this category, around here the logs would be skidded to a loading area, and then rolled up on the sleighs one at a time, using long chains and one horse as motive power, it worked really well, and one could build up really large loads quickly, and I might add cheaply--most everything we did cost very little.

Maybe you had some other loading techniques that you might share

The double bitted axe you referred to was also used by my father, he kept one bit thinner and sharper for chopping, and one for brushing and using where there might be stones hiding in the snow

Thanks again for coming on board keep you stories coming

In the spring of 1945 (before the snow went) I went with my father and my uncle to the local saw mill as they drew the logs there to be sawn, the saw mill was powered by a steam engine, which ran on slab wood from the logs, I can remember going in the engine house to get warm, and listen and watch the steam engine driving the large circular saw, what great power.

As I grew older I realized how important it was for the circular blade to be held at a constant speed to keep it from wandering in the cut, the blades were hammered to cut straight at a certain RPM.

Steam engines are like diesel motors, they are driven by a sliding valve that admitted steam at each end of the power stroke
I helped install a 45 hp steam engine at UCV that can drive the Grist mill there, taking over from the 45 hp water turbine for part of the time to conserve water.

The steam engine worked with 125 lbs of live steam it certainly was not a toy, and could be quite dangerous. We found that out in 1987 about 3 years after the Grist mill was opened, a very large thunder storm knocked out the water main to the whole village, and in turn it stopped our ability to feed water into the boiler as it worked, if the water level had dropped too much it could have blown with disasterous effects.

It was from this scare that we installed a back up 200 gal water tank that would feed water to the injection pump by gravity, this would give us enough time to pull the fire and lower the heat to the boiler.

Steam power is wonderful -powerful- and quiet no sound
That also goes for the water turbine--powerful and quiet also.

Thanks again for coming in Jim

hope you all enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/19/11 12:13 PM

Hello,

Richard, In that old mill did you use lard as a lubrication? That's something always there in the operating windmills around here, a slab of pork fat hanging from the ceiling to wipe over the wooden gearing to reduce wear on the cogs and teeth.
It comes to mind when reading your story now only because we killed the pig this weekend and with all the meat set up to cure and packed in the freezer I'm busy cutting up fat and rendering it for lard, the less pure part of which I'll use as a lubricant and some of which will be hung and dried in slabs.
Oh yeah, our wood boiler for warming the house is out of use right now until the pipes which feed the safety mechanism to cool things down in the event they overheat are repaired.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/11 01:55 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don welcome on board, and thanks for sharing and the question

Well I am going to be quite frank, we did cheat a little, we did use a modern grease for lubrication especially in places where prying eyes were not allowed--one of the reasonings being that the historic equipment was very expensive to repair so we used a top quality lubricant to allay wear, thereby extending out the intervals between forced repairs--

We were quite aware that in the 1860's modern lubricants hadnot arrived on the scene in any great quantity at first only in industrial centres like Massachusetts, Chicago, Pittsburg, and New York and the predominant lubricant in the frontier regions was beef tallow and lard at that time.

This was a common question by visitors --"what did they use for lubrication then". We of course said lard and tallow which was highly regarded and rendered down from the slaughter of animals for human consumption

Also Goose grease was used as a rub on for colds,lard was mixed with many things for many purposes also

I am quite interested in the mentioning of the boiler heating system you use--it brings to mind the one we installed at UCV to heat water for the woolen mill

It was widely used in England, I will try and describe it for everyone--The boiler in an upright low pressure vertical tube boiler, connected to pipes that lead to the attic space about 20 feet above the boiler--in the attic is a heat exhanger just another closed tank full of water with tubes inside for the steam to pass through

The way it worked is unique--the boiler is low pressure--7lbs sq in-- and saftied at that pressure--as the water boils it of course produces steam which rises up the vertical pipe to the tank in the attic--there it heats the water and cools back to condensate,--running under gravity back down another pipe to the boiler--the 20 foot height gives it enough pressure to inject itself back into the boiler so it just keeps circulating--if it happens to overheat the safties blow to relieve the pressure.

This system is closed and only needs a periodic injection of some water from an ordinary water source--it works like a dream--it was urprising how much hot water one can get from an armful of wood

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/11 01:33 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Today the cold has reappeared with vengeance around here, a time for things to slow down, a time for remembering, but as always a time to heat up the shop and make a few hand carved handles for a couple of orders that have come to my attention through that wonderful electronic medium--email--thanks to it we all can have these wonderful nightly conversations and exchange stories like those above.

I will be using black walnut blanks for these 3" offset broadaxe handles. You maybe noticed the tree in my "Broadaxe handle carving" DVD, it has given up many twisted limbs which contain the natural bent fibres for the handles above

Another lad from Utah wondered if I could carve out a "Casselman" style chopping axe handle for his early axe head that he intends on using for demonstrations out there next spring, so you can see I am going to have a fun winter ahead

Carving out handles was a winter pastime by the old wood stove, alittle each night--except saturday night--that was our weekly trip to town to purchase the supplies that we needed, provided we weren't snowed in which happened often back then

Maybe some of you can add a story or two

Well got to go

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/11 08:35 AM

Hello,

From your postings, Richard, it's clear to see that your work was really bound up in a good way with the different times and conditions of the year, something, for the most part, that technology has now done away with. Another indication that we are all just misplaced souls here on a strange planet.
I have seen descriptions of the wood generated, steam heating systems you write of up there and think that it is in many ways an ingenious way of heating though it would take a good deal of expertise to install right. My heating system is by no means so ingenious but relies on electricity and pumps, (a great drawback in my opinion), to get the warmth distributed from the source out there in the barn, throughout the house. The furnace heating the water directly until it reaches a temperature of 60C when pump no.1 switches on circulating water between furnace and accumulation tank standing right there next to it. Once the 1,500 liter tank is up to sufficient temperature the thermostat inside the house can be set and pump no.2 will switch on sending water circulating throughout the radiator system and back to the accumulation tank to be reheated by more fire. The furnace itself is connected to the water mains as a source of cooling in case it gets overheated. At just under boiling a thermostat opens the valve and fresh cold water is let in to cool it all down. By clicking here you can see how it's all set up.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff


Description: heating source
Attached File
P1030169.JPG  (615 downloads)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/11 08:57 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi again Don for coming on board, sure was a nice posting for all to see and learn--your heating system is just great, was it a patented setup or custom built?

Either way it is great especially if you have your own wood supply. The only draw back to wood is that it requires a constant presence to add fuel once in a while. I suspect though that you do lose some heat through the flue.

I also burn wood in a (so called)-- high efficiency wood stove (pacific energy), it takes burning one step beyond the cheaper models by heating the incoming combustible air before it reaches the burn chamber, thereby the fuel burns at a higher temperature, and keeps the emissions down in the outgoing smoke flue. There is quite a bit of heat escaping though and as most of us know the chimneys have to be a certain temperature or problems begin to develop, like freezing up on real cold nights from the liquid creosote condensed on the interior surface, or no draft, it seems to be a no win situation, but one can try and keep as much heat from escaping as possible

It also sounds like you are really into living the right kind of life, but as we all know it is not for everyone, many, many like the city life, but for me and especially since the great ice storm a few years back, that knocked out the power lines for a great large area of Ontario, give me a good wood stove and at that time quite a few hunkered down in our wood heated home. I was fortunate enough to have had a generator at that time and I travelled around starting up peoples furnaces to give them some heat--it was unreal many were just sitting there wrapped up in blankets not knowing what to do.

Knowing how to keep warm, plant a garden, slaughter an animal for meat, dig a hole in the ground for water, burn candles the list goes on--kids should be taught this as part of regular schooling in my book--it might save their lives in the years ahead.

Well everyone got to go

MERRY CHRISTMAS

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/11 01:52 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Had quite a day today, and a strange one indeed, I volunteered to help my wife finish up wrapping gifts, and I got to wrap a rather large one out in the garage

Well she handed me 3 partial rolls from a box of many partial rolls, and to my surprise the first roll had only a small piece which I laid aside, I unrolled the second roll and it covered exactly both ends and one side, the fourth one had just exactly enough to do the other side, while the small piece covered exactly the top---this is the first gift I ever wrapped that did not reqire even a little trim--now isn't that wierd or what!

Maybe you all might have some similar strange happenings that you might like to share with everyone, I sure would like to hear them

As I said above this is the time for story telling

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/11 08:56 AM

Hi Richard,

A few years ago my son visted Len Brackett in California. Before leaving Len gave him a small offcut of incencse cedar typical of what he uses in making his Japaense style frames. When my son eventually arrived back home he gave me the planed all round offcut which after much sampling of it's beautifully fragrant arome I placed upon a window sill in the workshop alongside a piece of Western Red cedar. I noticed that the cross sections of both samples were absolutely identical being approx 4" x 4" x 9" and then stood them on end to compare length which was also absolutely identical. I often wonder about the statistical chances of such an occurance ?

Have a nice Christmas and New Year and please post another excellent story on Christmas eve that I can open and read on Christmas day whilst waiting for the turkey to arrive !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/11 06:26 PM

This topic of wood heating sparks my interest.
I am convinced that wood heating could be the best method available to us. The only problem is that we don't tend to apply the same principles of efficiency toward wood heat that we do toward more expensive sources of energy like gas, electricity, or oil. Although that seems to be on the change.
And then there is the problem that you have to keep adding wood to your wood burner...
But you know what, the solution to both of these problems was, at least in part, found hundreds of years ago. I suggest you all look into masonry wood ovens, particularly the south-germanic variation of the Kacheloffen. The principle here is that you have a masonry firebox which can withstand tremendous heat -as wood burns, it releases a bunch of volatile compounds as smoke -these include tars, methane, hydrogen, and CO. In a steel firebox, these will go up in smoke (quite literally!). However, in a masonry oven you can get the fire hot enough that these compounds will also ignite. This means your wood is burned much much more efficiently. The key is to have a fire over I believe it is 1400 degrees F. This heat would destroy the integrity of steel.

Then the oven is built in such a way that the fire's heat is absorbed and slowly released into the room. You can have 1 or 2 hot fires in a day, no need for a constant burn. The outside surface of such a stove is generally only warm to the touch, with temperatures not above 130 degrees. It is common in the south for benches to be built on the side of these and used for tables in the winter time.
And last, the exhaust snakes around through a maze of masonry, where almost all of its heat is absorbed to be diffused into the house. The exhaust out of the chimney is only slightly warm, consisting mostly of condensed steam.
These factors put together make these things tremendously efficient and incredibly safe. The only way one could start a house fire off of one of these is out of sheer stupidity (the firebox is completely enclosed and sealed)

I like to live a life where I know I can feed and shelter myself if I have to. I prefer to use methods that don't require this ridiculous infrastructure to use. I look at our country right now, and realize that this luxury we have been afforded can't last much longer. That's the number one reason why here lately I have spent all of my money acquiring a diverse collection of hand tools. My table saw hardly gets used any more.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/11 08:29 PM

Hi ken and DL

Thanks for coming on board with both those threads--Ken --I know how you feel, you just stand there and wonder, I believe that things do happen in life from time to time that are unexplainable or at least hard to explain--I was demonstrating hewing back a few moons ago and a older lady came up to me and just kept staring not saying nothing, so I stopped work and asked her if she needed to ask me a question--she replied in amazment that I looked exactly like her son--and she said I mean exactly!--she continued to stare as she walked away--it sure gave me the shivers--they say everyone has a double in the world, I must have been his double.

DL--How right you are--they have improved wood burning stoves but stopped short of perfecting the perfect model--I am sure that could easily be done in this world--When you talk about your masonary stove I think back to the large bake oven at UCV that holds 100 loaves of bread--it is so easily heated with a couple of armfuls of cedar, and can then bake easily the many trays of bread,--as you say the heat is absorbed by the interior lining of soft masonary bricks, which after firing release the heat gently to do the baking.--This bee hive shaped oven is about 24" in thickness, the interior layers of brick are covered with sand to retain the heat that is eventually released.

I had the good fortune to be in charge of the restoration of this oven to replace the brick lining which at that time was about 30 years old. The historic mason I had working for me was from Belgium--Fred Arens-- a nicer man you would not meet, and on top of that he was a top notch tradesman--what a treat to watch him lay up the curved surface of the oven's ceiling, and place the key brick at the top, He also installed the curved arches of the mill races entrances and exits, at the grist mill during the mill's reconstruction in 1984

Well thanks for coming on board

I hope all enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/11 01:53 AM

Well hello everyone tonight

Just for a clarification to my note above on the reconstruction of the Bake oven--We used a light wood frame that supported the bricks in the curved ceiling of the oven, it was on this that Fred laid the bricks around and around until he reached the centre point of the curved ceiling, it was at this point that he inserted the key shaped brick, that would keep the ceiling from collapsing once the wood frame was removed.

We just started a fire to consume the wood frame after all thelayers of bricks were all laid, if my mind serves me well I believe that there was 6 layers of brick all together, and then about 1.5 cu yds of sand on top to insulate it well

We tried to burn it out slowly to not over heat the brick by closing and choking the cast iron entrance door leading into the oven's interior restricting the admission of combustible air

Fred said that in Belgium where he was from another system was to use wet sand and shape the curvature of the oven's ceiling and then scoop the sand out afterwards

anyway got to go

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/11 09:30 AM

Hi Richard,

In England brick bread ovens formed an integral part or were added onto the massive inglenook fireplaces that became popular in houses after the demise of the open hall. The oven door opening was positioned inside the large fireplace. The oven did not have its own flue so instead once the fire was lit all the smoke and flames exited through the loading door into the inglenook fireplace then up the main chimney flue. Once the oven had been burned and heated up to a temperature sufficient for baking then the ashes were quickly raked out into the fireplace below the oven without fear of setting anything alight or causing smoke in the room. The one difference that I note is that many of these English ovens did not have a metal door since metal is a very good heat conductor which would have quickly cooled the oven, instead they had a simple wooden door that was lifted into place to block the oven during the baking process. Understandably very few of these old wooden shutter type doors have survived.

I have pictures of this type of oven if only I could figure out how to post them. I note that some of the free picture posting website are now arramged such that it's no longer possible to create a single picture URL and instead now feature a picture show folder. How do we overcome this problem ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/11 08:00 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming in on this thread Ken--that is very interesting --I can't say that enything like this has shown up here in any of my researching, the closest thing that we have is a fire place and small oven combination, that has a flue for the ashes running down to the fireplace after heating. The oven was off to the side and above the level of the main fireplace's floor, but was an integral part of the masonary construction of the large fire place itself. The opening for the oven was on the same face of the wall as the fireplace.

In the Louck's house at UCV the summer kitchen had an early wood stove that stood right behind the exterior back wall of the fireplace and the smoke pipe feed into the main chimney flue

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/27/11 08:15 PM

Well hello everyone tonight

Here we are coasting to a new year, in places on the globe that I am sure means new hope--they sure need it from what I can see and hear

The world seems so small now with modern communications--new technology travelled so slowly back 150 to 200 years ago, new ideas of construction took generations to catch on and then it sometimes relied on the spead of new hardware ideas, and the means of production.


chainsaws came out around here in the late fifties and sixties, right when the burning of wood was winding down, I am surprised that trains have survived like they have, but I expect their demise is just around the corner

anyway Happy New year to all I sincerely hope that better things are in store for all you guys in the timberframe and log home building industry--you have came through some difficult times
And to everyone else I hope that the economy straightens up

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/27/11 09:52 PM

In the land of my people, folks were rather poor for a very long time. They did not have many resources in their mountains, and so they had to work very hard to live. For centuries their lands were cut off from the outside world due to their geography. So these people were frugal -and also skeptical of advancement and foreign innovations. Their lack of money meant that they did not take part in the industrialization of Europe. Instead they watched with great skepticism as the machine slowly devoured the cultures of their neighbors.
In our homeland, change always happens very very slowly, still today like it was n other places 150 years or more ago. New ideas of construction, for example, never come because they have no reason to think they might be better than their old ways -they have been building houses in a very similar way for 700 years.
After the World Wars, our homeland for the first time enjoyed a status of wealth (which it has never since lost, today having the strongest economy in the world) But even though now they could afford the luxuries and machines that make life so much easier, they for the most part to this day choose not to. They saw what it did to the rest of the Western world...
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/28/11 04:17 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks DL for coming on board with some of your thoughts, memories and reminders of the past and the time leading up to the present--I often sit and think if we are in fact any better off than we were--well I can say with confidence we probably are to a certain degree, but I also believe that even with modern technology we are putting in just as many hours now for a living as we were when I was a child maybe more--I really believe more

I was talking to a lad yesterday that I hadn't seen for maybe 15 years, and during the course of the conversation he said that in order to follow his line of work he had to be away from his family for up to 2 months at a time--the reason being I guess the economy's weakness and slowing down in areas and speeding up in others a real roller coaster ride

Mother and dad lived through the depression of the thirtees, which lasted up till the time of the war in 1939, it seems unrealistic that it took a war and the lose of many lives to bring back the economies of many parts of the world

Wars usually though speed up technology's slow grind forward, and also here in Canada we seen an influx of new canadians of many nationalities--I as a teenager watched with awe as these new industrious immigrants turned the slowly dissapearing farm cummunities into thriving business ventures seemingly in about 10 years

It takes good vision by the politicians to put in place the seeds that develop a country as a whole, I know that around this area the development of the St Lawrence seaway in the late fifties created employment, opportunity, hydro generation, it was unbelievable the work that went on for about 3 years, it did though for better or worse bring up the wage level, good for some and not for others--it goes on today!--where does it end

Do any of you like to add to this line of thought--I know it is not timberframing but as Lowel Green used to say this week anything goes--some of these things need to be discussed for sure

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/29/11 04:03 PM

hello everyone tonight

well -20C last night-- here we go--winter here we come--

I was thinking back last night to a time just a while ago it seems but in reality a quite a while ago--watching for the horse and sleigh as they plowed through the drifts of snow, now getting packed down as the neighbours also moving about were trying to get supplies that they needed, but probably could do without if a major storm swept through--you know I remember the storms which seemed fierce then, the howling of the wind, these storms were referred to as blizzards--you would actually get tired of listening to the mournful sound, and the shaking of the old house.

I can remember quite well getting up in the pitch blackness and with the parka pulled tightly around start towards the barn. One time in particular after an exceedingly long "blow" the drifts were piled high--I ran right into one in the dark higher than my head--what a time getting through!

Eventually reaching the barn door, you opened it and the heat in there created huge clouds of steam, but what a welcome reliefto close the door--it was like another world--so hot in there, and so cold out side

As your eyes focused all heads were turned in your direction, waiting for food, water, cleaning, and milking if any were still inclined--in those days January and February were months that not much milking was done, just enough for the table and cooking

After a while the snow on your clothes melted and it began to feel uncomfortable, but when you went outside your pantlegs froze almost immediately, and became like metal pipes around your legs

As a youngster then I helped my father as much as I could, but one job was usually left up to me bringing in the daily firewood supply, and filling up the wood box, which was a never ending job --two stoves--one for cooking, and a large box stove that you could drop in large chunks of elm, one on top of the other--pieces that had resisted splitting, and so were left for this stove.

The old car was parked for the winter not to move a wheel for many months--the snow was 3 feet high right outside the doors, with no way to move it then.

Well I have to go

hope you enjoy this trip down memory lane

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/31/11 06:00 PM

hello everyone tonight

well this is it the last of 2010 coming up

Thanks everyone for stopping by over the last year, I hope that you enjoyed your visit and maybe learned a little about the common everyday life as it used to be,

To those of you that joined in with personal experiences and added to the threads--a heart felt thanks

May God give me the strength and good health to be here next year

Happy New year to everyone

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/01/12 12:41 AM

Happy New Year to you NH.....
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/05/12 02:10 AM

Hello everyone tonight

well back to topics that deal with historic work of many types

I am putting the finishing touches on my 2 broadaxe handles that I had to make, and will then start a project really close to my heart

I have for a number of years planned to reproduce the family handsleigh--it is quite a story going back 30+ years--

As a young lad I remember quite well the handsleigh that my Grandfather made, and was used right up until my uncle sold the family farm I believe around 1948

I wanted to purchase it the day of the sale but arrived too late another person had bought it and would not consider selling it to me, so I just waited around--unfortunately I have now only the metal parts to begin this task, but feel fortunate that I have them.

The runners look good yet--good sleigh steel I am sure, because they show only minimal wear for all those years

For all good purposes I am going to name the sleigh the "Casselman Hand Sleigh".

I did some preliminary measuring today and the sleigh steel is 4'2" in length and 1.25 in width, the rounded end that comes up over the front, is a separate piece and is nicely shaped to fit over the main runner itself, and bolted at the joint

One of my next problems will be to try and obtain naturally bowed oak pieces to construct the runners out of--that means a trip to the bushlot-- a fun trip--

Well I will be back--if anyone would like to comment on handsleighs in general or post some pictures for everyone to see
that would be nice

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/05/12 11:24 AM

My grandfather had a horse drawn 2 person cutter that my great grandfather used to use to take cream back to town on and get all the neighbors mail with. Back in high school I had the oportunity to restore it in 4-H/woodworking class. When I was working on it there was an old carpenter that was leading 4-H and he discribed that same process for finding runners. Sounds like a fun project.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/05/12 06:55 PM

Hi Richard,

Can you please advise whether cruck blades should be positioned banana ends up or down for hewing ?

Should this make any difference to the finished article ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/12 01:28 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Gumphri, and Ken

Thanks for coming in with your experiences Gumphri, I think that you are talking about the curved wooden parts of the runners, in the end did you have to replace the wood, and if you did how did you do it?--I know that the cabinet maker at UCV -Luciano Direnzio- would steam bend the pieces, he did many curved wood pieces like chair backs this way--it is time consuming though and you need to really plan ahead--in my department we did some specialty curved handles, one was scythe handles--these were created using green ash saplings of about the right size, boiled them in boiling water and then clamped them in an apparatus that would hold the shape until they dried, broasdaxe handles with the 3" offset can be created using a similar method.

Hi Ken:--I am glad to hear from you, I hope things over there are going well--I am very sorry, but your descriptive terms have me baffled.

I am not familiar with Cruck blades, I suspect it is the lower part of a tree but not real sure, and then without this information I cannot answer the last part----sorrree--please get back to me i am very interested in your question and will do my best to give you an answer

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/12 01:48 AM

Ken, I would guess, if I understand your question right, that it would be easiest to position the ends of the curved cruck blades up when hewing. This is because that is how it would want to sit naturally. If the middle sags down, then its hundreds of pounds of weight will help to hold the whole thing in place to hew. If you'd place the middle so it arcs up, then you would be added the timbers own weight to its already annoying tendency to want to move while hewing. It seems to me it would be very hard to do it with the ends pointing down.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/12 01:29 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks DL for stepping in, I now see what Ken was referring to, and the problem with the configuration during the hewing process.

Ken could you give me an idea just how long these crucks are?, and the sizes of both ends.

It sounds like hewing a number of these for a rconstruction, repair or new project would be quite an undertaking--but be sure there is a way, just have to figure it out.

I suspect that there was a special set up for supporting them which had evolved during the 100's of years they were used, then forgotten about or discarded

I have run into just such problems especially in the historical processes of putting up timberframes, it is extremely hard to backtrack on technology,it is like learning in reverse, you are also working with a group of men who like yourself have their minds modernized

Your problem if I was given it probably would be done in this manner--with the bow down and the heavy end more or less close to the ground (supported) and the lighter end elevated coming to its natural position according to where and how the cruck is turned, I probably would then lay on a line and begin to flattend one surface--using a combination of axe work and adzes and if possible the broadaxe--having completed that side I would roll it over and after lining again would lay the cruck flat, (maybe elevating the ends, to come in line with a good working posture) and proceed with adzes and chopping axes and if possible the finishing touches of the broadaxe,--(this new angle though means that everyone is working in reverse, like right to left, which goes for example the right or left broadaxe, as well as workers who work right or left--some could work both hands)

I suspect that you are looking for a broadaxe finish, but maybe not, sometimes hewing and adzing finishes are hard to determine, especially in historic times.

It could be very possible that an adze finish would have been applied after the rough hewing, a careful examination of the old surfaces would be in order--I belive you know what I mean and what marks to look for--

I do believe that obtaining the proper angle to work on these crucks was the key, only now a little experimentation might be needed,-- a slight repositioning of the cruck during the flattening process might be required to keep this angle correct for the workers

I hope this might help you out, and thanks again for bringing this old problem to our attenion, it makes me think deeply again and reach into my bag of past experiences,

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/12 05:08 PM

NH,

The interesting aspect to me here is how one would get a clean finish on the inside face of the cruck's curve.

And also, I am one of those who works with both a left hand and a right hand broad axe. The terms are somewhat misleading, as a left hand axe does not require one to use his left hand to use it. It just notes where you stand in reference to the timber. In fact, I almost prefer to use a 'left hand' axe.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/12 05:22 PM

Hi Richard,

Both your and DLB's reply has got me thinking that maybe I have asked the wrong question and instead I should have asked for the best way to create / shape a cruck blade since this might be more easily undertaken with the blade lying "flat" on the ground.

Small cruck blades would be 16" or so diameter at the butt tapering to 12" dia or so at the top end and would probably be about one rod long (16 - 17ft). Where the blades need to rise to peak at the ridge then they might need to be up to 28 - 30ft long with varying degree of elbowing.

I came across a picture today of The Barley Mow pub at Long Wittenham. This is just down the hill from the Wittenham Clumps project that was undertaken by the TFG a few years ago alongside the Carpenters Fellowship and this photo shows the exposed cruck blades of the timber frame following a fire in the thatched roof during the 70's.

Barley Mow Pub - Long Wittenham

The Barley Mow cruck blades are made from Wytch Elm and currently I have a number of standing dead elm snags at the woodlot which have recently succumbed to Dutch Elm disease. Elm is quite a stringy wood to work having more than its fair share of both cross and wild grain.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/07/12 01:24 AM

hello everyone tonight

Ha ha Ken that is a better description and the picture sure helps

it sounds to me like the crucks are round, because you refer to their diameters top and bottom, but here again I take nothing for granted maybe you are referring to their square measurement,

I believe the biggest challenge here would be to make all the crucks's curves similar so that the whole building would be symetrical, here again I would produce a pattern out of light material that one could lay on the rough blank as he worked to check the progress of the journeyman or tradesman

It would be nice to have yet just a bit more information about the finished appearance, especially if the crucks are flat on one side, or square, or round

best of the new year

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/08/12 01:34 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Ken--our elms have all but disappeared here too, but the specie is fairly hardy, and new young trees are pushing up in fence rows, and it seems to me that some of them are resistant to the disease, because theyare inhabiting areas near where dead elms were, and seem healthy.

They were really majestic trees, we had 3 or 4 varieties around here, white elm, swamp elm, rock elm, and then there seemed to be ones that lived in the open areas, and had slightly different characteristics--really brushy, and well forget about splitting them--impossible--

You mentioned that the crucks were made from elm, in my books that is the strongest and toughest wood around, if you wanted a timber that would carry a heavy load--elm would have been your choice

At the entrance to UCV they planted a row of English Elm that seemed to do good for a few years but eventually succumed to an unusually cold winter and spring. One thing that I did notice was that they held their leaves all winter which seemed unusual, it was just like they didn't know what to do in that respect. They were quite curly in appearance and different than our native species

My dad used to say a place for everything and everyhing had its place

Our set of sleighs that we used for many years to haul out wood and logs, had oak runners, but the bunks were elm, the stakes were elm, and the reaches were rock elm, there was just no breaking them

I can remember quite well rounding the sleigh up high, and then heading for home through the gullies and ditches, over stones and large drifts, and as the sleigh twisted one way and then the other you could hear the sound of the bunks taking a beating, you would hold your breath as the sleighs tipped and dived deep into the snow, the team seemed to know what was up and they would lay into the harness, the snow flying from their shod hooves, actually they seemed to enjoy it after standing for so long in the cold waiting to hear the command from my uncle a slight tap on their flanks and we were away

When we reached the unloading area I am going to tell you, they would be well steamed up

My father when he built the barn in 1946, used all elm 3" by 6"'s for the joists, man would they bow down when the mow was loaded to capacity,

well got to go


enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/08/12 02:13 AM

NH,
How, in your experience, does elm hew?

I never learned about elm. I can easily walk around our woods out here and tell you all the useful trees and what they are good for, but I don't know how to identify the elm varieties. Because we don't have them, and what few we do don't get very big before they die off. So it is not a tree that is useful to us any more. Which is sad.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/08/12 07:47 PM

Hi Richard & DLB,

Historic rude cruck blades, purlins, ridge and tie beams are generally made from boxed heart materials and hence the dimensions quoted above are for the typical round stock needed prior to conversion to boxed heart. Cruck blades can be found with lots of waney edge and are quite variable in their profile with mixtures of different shapes (elbowed, ogee, straight, etc.) scribed together to form the cross frames. Differing cruck profiles result in cross frames that do not necessarily provide an even platform for running side purlins & ridge and this can give rise to difficulties in providing a location for wind brace foot mortices so sometimes it's necessary to add blocking pieces and / or struts as required to make the frame geometry work.

Our elms died out in a major way back in the 1970's but as you mention above left alone they will grow back from suckers springing from the rootstock (not the stool). In turn these trees have started to die back again after 25-30 years regrowth but by this time they had already put on sufficient girth and height to provide sufficient stock to hew out one good purlin from same. After examining 5-600 year old elm frame components I think that there is every reason to believe that Dutch elm disease is not a new phenomenon and that the medieval carpenters were maybe just making the best possible use of available timber stock during phases of elm die back.

I will try to remember to take a few photos of the elm growing in our woodlot.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/08/12 11:27 PM

Hi Ken, correct me if this is not the case. Some crucks were shaped then rip sawn into two sticks, allowing a matching pair. A question, was this ever done and instead of setting the matching pair in the same bent did they ever use them next to each other on the same side of the building, say bents 2 & 3?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/09/12 02:24 AM

well hello everyone tonight

Good conversation keep it going!

One thing that I wonder about was how far spread the growth of elm is around the globe especially in the scandinavian countries

Hewing Elm--well I can honestly say I have never hewed elm but have used lots of sawn elm lumber and small timbers, like 6 by6's and 8 by 8's--for support posts they can bear quite a load, as well as for joists

I cut down a really large elm in our bushlot it was approaching 48" in diameter--the butt timber cut out---if my memory is correct--36-- 3 by 6's 16 feet long to reinforce the hay mow floor when we began to load it with baled hay

The single butt timber was all the sleigh could handle, we rolled it on with chains, and when it dropped about 6" from the cants to the bunks the sleighs settled right down to the hard earth through the frozen snow, it took quite a pull to get the sleighs up and going, but the team seemed to enjoy the challenge

another thing I remember was when the tree hit the ground one of theside limbs was driven right into the earth through the frozen layer, and it stayed there for quite a number of years

During the seaway construction the area being flooded had to be clear cut of all trees, At Aultsville just west of Cornwall stood one of the largest trees in Eastern Ontario, it was an elm and it was 6 feet in diameter, it stood along the old canal bank. Unfortunately it had to be cut down but a slice from the tree was preserved at UCV, I used to look at it and wonder what things and events the tree had witnessed.

The growth rings dated it to well before the coming of UEL's to the area, and probably witnessed the skirmishes during the years leading up to settlement in this area--a real shame I supose, but the dutch elm disease probably would have done it in anyway

Well got to go


enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/09/12 08:20 AM

Hi Tim,

Never say never !

Please check out the picture of a very early cruck frame located near my home in North Hampshire that has gable end oak cruck blades that are rip (see) sawn down through the heart to form a book matched pair set in the same cross frame. This is very easy to determine simply by looking at the mirror image of knots and other defects as they appear opposite directly one and other.

Halved cruck blades

I am not aware of halved cruck blades being used along side each other i.e. on the same side of the timber-frame but that does not mean that this has never happened and it might well afford some benefits in terms of providing similar alignment arrangements for carrying side purlins. This could provide a very practical solution for a single bay frame.

Richard,

Your comments about the St Lawrence seaway / UCV elm is interesting. I have noted that one of the 20+ year old English elms that I felled in my own garden nearly 10 years ago has annual growth ring widths of one half to three quarters of an inch. It appears that elm can achieve these remarkable growth rates during the early years of regrowth from suckers presumably because the main root system has remained intact and is still fully functional even after Dutch elm disease has killed off the main stem. What did you observe in the early growth rates of the UCV elm ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/09/12 08:22 AM

Hello,

Elm, as we call it here, is even more common throughout Asia, widely used and highly valued in Japanese building construction as well as furniture. Some years back, down there at the Amsterdam lumber yard they were selling stacks and stacks of old doors imported from China, (no doubt some village or villages, were demolished to make way for a factory complex or hydro electricity damn), most of these were also made of Elm wood - Iep or Ulm as they call it here. I have noticed it is common in the landscapes of Central Asia and have seen it growing widely in Western China.

I think in Europe you would find it growing no further north than probably the southern halve of Sweden. Here in Holland there is a ban on transporting freshly cut Elm with the bark still on it in connection with this mould there which leads to the tree's dying. It seems this sickness is gaining strength from out of the south as the temperate zone expands along with the warming of the Earth.

There is a section of the barn here where the walls are planked with Elm wood and they show a great deal more worm damage throughout, spint and heart wood, than the pine planks next to them.

I have used Elm wood in making furniture and it is a fine and easy wood to work with hand tools in both wet and dry states so I can guess that hewing in it would pose no particular problems.

Here is some Elm wood I've had out back leaning up against a Willow drying now for two or three years. Nice thick planks.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/10/12 01:07 AM

Hello every one tonight

Hi Ken

Unfortunately I never really took notice of the thickness of the growth rings I wish I had, maybe I will have a chance at another time, if I do I will report my findings

Thanks everyone for coming on line with all your great inputs

Well today I have cut a piece of naturally bent (grown) ash that I think I will use for the handsleigh's curved runners--have to get that project on the go

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/12 01:38 AM



hello everyone tonight


Here is a good view of the inside of the attic of a lutheran church circa 1865--showing the intermediary trusses, that are 40 feet in length, and the rafter structure that is suspended on these trusses. Notice the centre wrought iron rod that drops down to hold the centre of the trusses straight

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/12 08:26 PM

Hi,

It reminds me of the time I spent as what they call "klokenlouder," (which is also another name for whistle blower), in the village where I lived some years back. At times during the year I would have to climb to the top of the tower and hang out the flag, (for a small cash renumeration I might add), an impressive timber construction, the tower itself, but not as impressive as the construction supporting the bell - only oak wood there my friend.
Greetings,

Don Wagstaff


Description: tower
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Description: bell
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Description: Door to the ship
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Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/15/12 02:15 AM

Hello don

thanks for coming in with that interesting thread and the photos they are great

The last one showing the door and the ladder has some good details

The hinges are of a great style--crude yet well made for sure

The door itself is interesting, but doesn't show the characteristic nailing pattern usually exhibited in a board and batten door, it would be interesting to see the other side
It does have a nice mouse hole at the lower left corner

The ladder too its styling seems unique, around here the ladders are usually made from split round poles, with round rungs, I can't say that I have ever seen one constructed exactly like that one with round poles and flat rungs mortised right through.
The rungs show quite a bit of wear, must be quite old, and is real good construction

Do you have any idea the age of the structure?

The inscription on the bell would be interesting I am sure but I can't really make it outor understand the language, can you interpret it for everyone

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/15/12 06:47 PM

Hello,

Well, to begin the tower is not original but was an effort at modernization of the kind thought necessary around 1867. The building is ancient though and dates to the 12 century with some unique masonry workmanship. Anyway to the point. That door was always one of the more interesting features for me too. In fact I had intended to look into giving it some needed attention but never got further than repairing the arched trim which had fallen down. The hinges are authentic and likely even older than the door itself and differ from hinges used in houses or farm buildings, maybe because this is a church. They are attached pretty precariously only to the trim. I believe it is what you called a board and batten door, with three battens on the opposite side. But the construction is consistent with similar doors I know of, that is tung and grooved planks nailed from the batten side through and clinched.

Of the five ladders I had to climb to get in the top of the tower this and the one under it were fairly old and similarly built and I know at least the one under here was, like you describe, from a single, split through pole. The rungs always are flat, through morticed, shaped on the under side and pegged at every rung or every other rung. Mostly they are made from North American softwood like Douglas Fir because of advantageous strength to weight ratios over long lengths.

I can't tell what is written in the bell because other than the Latin there, the rest of it is in Friesian and my Friesian is very poor. An interesting thing is though that the Nazis stole the bell from the tower during World War 2 and took it back to Germany intent on melting the brass down for bullet casings or something. Thanks to their obsession with documenting the whole plunder though the village folk were able to track down and retrieve it. Of all the clock towers around here this one does have a uniquely long and clear resonance. It is located in the village of Ee.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/12 01:30 AM

Hello everyone tonight

What a great response Don I thank you very much, it addresses every point that I asked for claification, and I am sure that those looking in enjoyed the response as much as I did.

I wanted to point out to everyone that it is very big difference in looking at a picture, and really look at a picture, that is one thing I learned throughout my career, it is the fences, the roads the clothing, the animals, equipment and the list goes on that makes a picture or a painting very interesting.

I remember one time I needed to prepare a very accurate display for events that we would be staging for a number of years and one of the items was sawhorses for the timberframers to use. These had to be accurate to the period and had to be reconstructed a very costly venture in today's world.

I began by looking through old photographs, and paintings that our museum had in storage and the library. After looking in many areas and just about giving up I ran across a very old painting of tradesmen at work and low and behold there was a lovely view of the sawhorses they were using.

So from that I was able to pass on details to the construction division and I had 6 reproduced that were real treasures as far as strength, durability, height, width, and most of all each one had a nice shelf on which one could use to lay tools on when not in use. After approx 20 years now they are still in use and going strong

I guess I have a real interest in saw horses when I was very young My dad built 2 sets when he was building the barn in 1946, I remember him telling me that when he was working as an apprentice to become a full fledged carpenter, one of the first tasks that he had to master was to build a proper sawhorse.

I want to stress that these weren't just the ordinary sawhorses but after completion and you stood back, you really knew that a craftsman had did the job. These horses are still kicking around but starting to show their age

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/12 12:15 PM

Ah yes. I truly stepped into a trap of my own making, blinded once again by ego.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/12 02:22 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

Just before we leave the conversation about the great church structure above, I expect that you probably had a peek in the attic, would it be possible for you to describe the roof's super structure, and maybe how the tower is supported, that would be nice

Are the exterior walls brick like the interior wall in the door photo?

One other item, I noticed no handle on the door, I expect for a reason maybe you might expand alittle--I am going to guess, probably only opens from one way

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/12 03:06 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Here is a view of one of the naturally curved runners that I am working on for the hand sleigh

enjoy

NH


Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/12 09:02 AM

Hello Richard,

Nice, how you've chosen to make your runners. Is that ash wood? And is this one of the two runners or do you saw the two from the one once you've got the shape?

I answer your, what I take to be straightforward questions this time in reverse order. First of all with a picture where I have highlighted the obscure handle on the outside of the door.

The parimeter walls of the building are made up of what they call kloostermoppen which refers to a particular soft-fired brick format,(22x10.5x5.5 cm) and lime mortar fired from seashells. Probably the clay of bricks was dug and fired at or near where the church is standing. The tower is, lets say built along side and independent of the original building. The timber framing of the tower begins at the third level, the level in which the bell is contained, and stands on bricked walls more than half a meter in thickness at that point. I'm not sure how it is anchored but the joists there are massive things, around 30x30 cm I think.

Here, because of the earlier influence of the sea, the churches were build on top of man made mounds of clay so the church and the old village stands higher than the surrounding area. This is a cultural/historical characteristic of the landscape in this part of Friesland.

Details for me of the roof construction are a bit vague at this point. I recall only the spaar construction, simple rafters of round and sometimes roughly hewn poles. And it is by no means original as the walls were made higher at some later point. The impressive thing is the upside down boat, the actual covering of the chapel below. In this little film, plucked from the internet, you can see this from the underside.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/12 12:58 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for all the feedback, and I guess the church secrets are now well explained--to other things--

You were asking about the sleigh runners, yes--what you see in the photo is a curved natural blank that will be split in two creating two identical runners

As I work on this project I will be posting photos that will show my progress and the early design of the sleigh

I haven't yet but I will be also showing the metal parts which are blacksmith made from times gone by

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/12 02:46 AM

Here's a picture of the bottom part of the cutter. I didn't have to replace the runners. But, I did take everything apart, cleaned it up, and put it back together.



Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/12 01:39 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Gumphri --thanks for coming in with your photo of the cutter

I take it that it is a cutter--like the ones that are large enough to be pulled by a single horse--Am I correct?

It sounds like a fun project for sure

Was it a family cutter, or one that you acquired

Well today I had a visit from a reporter who had stumbled across my thread accidently, and was impressed with the various topics which she found very interesting. Needless to say I was very surprised

We had a great visit, mostly talking about the days gone by, timberframing, hewing timbers, the seaway construction, and most of all the interest that the thread seemed to generate

Well I have suspended shop work to cut the firewood for next year, conditions are just about right for bush work, a nice coating of snow, and cold enough to freeze up a good road into the difficult areas.

Will try and still come on in the evenings

Please feel free to keep the talk on handsleighs going, it would be nice to hear about and see examples of other sleigh's

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/12 05:43 AM

Yep, it was a two person cutter, my great grandfather used to take the cream to town on it and come back with the mail.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/12 05:12 PM


Hello everyone

Well too cold for the bush today so here I am

Gumphri--I just visited your site and really liked what I saw especially the picture of all of you standing in the finished frame

The frame is interesting especially the way the upper plate is attached, and the location of the cross girts.

I always had to follow the framing techniques of the early settlers and I guess in some ways it has limited my experiences to other types of frames

It was quite interesting though because we had to use hewn material with rough surfaces, and that meant using lines and seatings, taking into account the uneven thicknessess and the twists in the timber, quite a challenge, it made the old brain work

I had good carpenters walk away because they said that they just wern't up to the mental challenges that came with working on the hewn surfaces

Anyway here is a shot of the just raised 3 bay driveshed at the Bellamy's Grist mill site at UCV, It was the culmination of 2 seasons, usually 1 year hewing the timber and 1 year framing and raising. Prior to that I spent part of a year working on securing and documenting a surviving historical, in this case a driveshed, to measure and produce a set of construction plans

In the very beginning of the project it was necessary to try and obtain a photo of the original drivehed, which in this case we were able to obtain a painting that one of the family members still had, and from studying that we were able to ascertain what the building we would be looking for wood be in appearance

This driveshed had unusually heavy timbers in it, and had a second floor for storage of barrels and other articles that was needed to run and maintain the mill.

Anyway really enjoyed your site and recommend a visit by everyone looking in

It looks like you are really dedicated to the timberframing trade keep up the good work

Where in Ontario did you work?

enjoy

NH


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o198/Hewer/TimberFramingandStaff063.jpg[/IMG]
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/12 05:18 PM

HELLO EVERYONE

Well I guess i brought in the wrong picture but it is a good view of the timbers being dovetailled and assembled around where the base of the water turbine would be setting in the pressure box at the Asselstine Woolen Mill at UCV

These are all Oak timbers

Here hopefully is the right picture but no promises

Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/19/12 09:37 PM

Yep, its cold here too.

I worked an hour and a bit north of Toronto in a town called Minesing.

On that house I was helping the carpenter that exposed me to timber framing. It is his house. He likes to keep changing the top plate corner post connection. I'm sure he lies awake at night dreaming up the connections. His last frame, a garage sized shop featured the cog joint where the top plate meets. I'm not sure about the house but in garages it has always been an issue keeping tie beam and the top plate high enough for a door but low enough to not make the building height higher than the city allows.

I've often wondered how you attach the edge of the decking when the girt is a different height than the tie beam?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/20/12 01:46 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming back with the explanation Gumphri but I am confused with the last question about attaching the decking which building are you referring to?

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/12 01:32 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Just thought that I would reminisce abit about the Bellamy Driveshed project

When you look at the Picture I posted of the framework just raised, I am sure that you would not imagine the activity that went on in that area during the previous summer

Along the outskirts of the area we brought in the round logs cut the previous winter--we needed first the longer plates so these logs were first on the program to be hewn

2--38' pine--large enough to square 12" by 12" on the top ends
2--26' = --large enough to square 12" by 12" on the top ends
2--38' = " " 8" by 8" "
2--26' = " " 8" by 8" "

I remember the activity, the work, the sweat, and of course the interest the hewing of the long logs generated--the larger ones were upwards of 36" on the butts--there was lots of chips around for sure!

We then switched to the shorter posts and the cross girts while the framing team began the mortising and tenant work on the freshly hewn plates

The hewing of the rafters (20) was quite a challenge alone because they were tapered from 6" sq at the bottoms to 4" square at the top--being white ash they were tough for sure, and on top of that small to hold

well see you tomorrow night

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/12 09:09 AM

Hi Richard,

Your last point about hewing small diameter white ash is interesting. I have noted in the Bayeux tapestry that small logs were positioned leaning against a forked tree and then hewn downwards with a "T" profiled axe. I have of late been splitting cedar fence post and then flatening these up on one side using a hatchet. Without realising what I was doing I quickly mimicked the positioning of the Norman Hewers using a firewood sawhorse and this stoped "the bounce". I also found that it was easier to hew from the pith down to the outside edge to create the first rough pass flat surface i.e. removal of the high spots and then the post was flipped and this process repeated on the other side of the post pith. I then removed all the sap wood along the split edges forming an arris thereby leaving one semi round face and three flat faces. If I had needed to remove the semi round face then I would by default have created a rafter and so by process of experimentation it seems relatively easy to rediscover the old techniques for making components.

One February morning as the snow was melting on Royalston Common in Northern Massachussetts I gathered up some wind blown white ash seed and brought this home with me to see if they would germinate. They did indeed and these seeds soon turned into healthy saplings which I grew on in pots for 5 years or so before eventually planting them out in my woodland alongside their English cousins. I am hopeful that in due course and long after I am gone someone walking the woodland will hopefully chance upon these American White Ash trees and wonder ?

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/12 10:13 AM

Hello,

Thanks for the insight Ken. We seem to be busy with similar pursuits. This week, spliting out rails and posts from that Western Red Cedar.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/12 01:34 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hello to both of you for coming on board

That is very interesting Ken, and maybe it would work for the tapered rafters I am not sure but for sure it would work for shorter pieces.

Splitting out cedar fence rails is not an easy chore, especially with the cedar that we have growing now, the old rail fences were split from the large hollow red cedars that abounded in the early forests but are now long gone

I did run across large split threshing floor planks in one of the earliest barns around here it is a swing beam barn, and had floor planks that measured 36 inches across, that had been split from large pine trees, and were 20 feet in length.

It must have been quite a chore to have split them from these huge trees with what they no doubt had to work with in the 1700's

This same barn had waney roof board that were also 36 inches in width, and vertical sawn, these marks were quite noticeable, so immediately it dated the barn to the early 1800's, before circular blades came into use at least around here, even then they couldn't have sawn that large a log.

The large vertical blades that were 6.5' to 7' could easily have sawn these large logs--slowly--for sure--but steady!, theywould have been run by water power, usually a barrel wheel, not a turbine! there is quite a difference.

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/12 07:46 PM

Hello,

Those Romanian brothers from Carpenters of Europe are hewing pole stock right on the ground. I am guessing that this has a lot to do with this deflection problem Ken Hume has alluded to up there. Now that I think of it there is a kind of axe known in Sweden as "sparrbila" which could, in a stretch of imagination be called a double bearded axe as the one depicted on the tapestry there. A sparr in one sense is the sometimes rounded and sometimes, (partly), hewn, small diameter poles taken from the fir tree and used as rafters. These were something of a mass produced and widely exported product of the Swedish forest industry of earlier times. It would be interesting to know something of the technique used by these Swedish hewers. Was it the inclined technique or was it more like what the Romanians do, down there low on the ground?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/12 08:24 PM

The German term for Rafters is Sparren.
And I believe the German technique, prior to saws, was to stand on the rafter, which was set very low to the ground or even on it, and use the long handled Breitbeil (broad axe) which has a handle as long as a felling axe or even longer. This as opposed to the short handled Breitbeil, which is the goosewing we are all familiar with.
You would chop down below your feet with this axe, sweeping along the timber to square it off.
It is actually quite easy to square off a timber with this axe without snapping any lines at all, as the motion follows very naturally in a straight line and allows you to sight yourself as you go.
And here I think that the act of standing on the timber helps keep it from bouncing

This longer-handled axe has a heavy profile similar to a goosewing, having the lower beard but not the upward sweep. The bit is around 8 inches or so, as opposed to the 12 inch or more size of a goosewing bit. Its own weight is used to do all the work, rather than a forceful swing.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/12 08:57 PM

Hello,

Seems plausible. The intent not being to square up but to pair down. The only thing is, on the sparr rafters, as I will refer to them here, that I've seen the hewing marks are at a pretty steep angle which makes me think that they were cut if not up off the ground, than on an inclination. I incline toward the inclination hypotheses.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/12 09:14 PM

Don,

It is more than likely that things are not done the same everywhere. I am just pointing out here another method used
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/23/12 01:43 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Great conversation you guys, I was just wondering though with my feeble mind, if the poles were on the ground during the hewing process, how you protected the axe from damage?

No doubt there was a way, I would very much like to hear your take on the method used though.

I realize that sometimes it is very hard to visualize the methods that were used, although they were probably quite well known at that time.

They are still contemplating how many of the wonders of the world were accomplished with the means available then at their disposal

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/23/12 07:32 PM

Hello,

Never having done it for that very reason Richard, I can make no offer to explain. Sometimes securing a particular piece for hewing is not that straightfoward especially those smaller pieces, but, the laying on the ground total support method does seem to be the way the gentleman in this film clip is going about his business, no doubt after a lot of experience.

The coming time I'll be having a go at squaring up short lengths with the axe to pretty small dimensions for making rain gutter sections. My plan at the outset is to leave plenty of extra length over, of what would otherwise be unusable waste where the stem is kinked, for the hewing, and supporting the blank over a relatively shortened span, then easing slowly towards the dimensions of the rain gutters as I want them. So far it seems to be going good even without first scoring due to nice fresh wet wood, the minimal moisture evaporation at this time of year in this particularly wet and soggy winter, along with the axe sharpened good like it should be.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/12 01:47 AM

Hello everyone tonight


Thanks Don for the information and a link to that site I thoroughly enjoyed it--it is always nice to see someone else hewing, only then can you compare techniques, of which there are many

He is hewing close to the ground but not right on the ground from what I can make out--I may be wrong but that is the way I see it. It does look like there are some sort of timbers with their tops just above ground level supporting the log he is hewing.

I noticed that he straddled the log, and hewed against the round section, leaving the flattened section behind as he works along.

We here in this country hew along the flattened section with the handle curving out from the freshly flattened surface. It is interesting to see his technique, he has to keep his handle very high, and that means hewing more along the grain rather than down across the grain

I wonder what he would do with a log that was 36 feet long and 46" in diameter, he couldn't straddle it for sure, probably stood on top, but it would be interesting to see what technique he would use to square this log, I am sure he had one.

One thing I am sure he had to be very careful not to strike his handle on the unhewn section by his legs, especially with larger logs.

you mention in the second part of your post a reference to making gutters, I was trying to follow it along, it seems to me that you are hewing the gutter flat on the sides,bottom and top but how would the hollowing be done, we used gutter adzes and left the gutters round and flat on top, the surface that we gouged out to form the gutter

Thanks again for your interesting post

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/12 04:47 AM

When hewing with the long broad axe, I have never had any trouble with hitting the dirt even with timbers very close to the ground. My motion with this axe is usually vertical too, but I am relying on the axe's own weight combined with the mechanical advantage derived from the long handle to do all the work, and not actually swinging the axe. This means that in most cases, the wood just splits away calmly, and the axe doesn't fly through.
It is also very important not to try and remove and entire juggle as one solid piece on thicker sections, but to remove it in sections. This way the wood can easily split away and you don't have a sudden release of energy when it split off. In addition, when you are removing wood you finish your swing with a slight snap of the wrists, which gives the axe a kind of slicing motion, then when it is embedded in the wood you pry the piece of wood free with the axe. I tend to finish out the bottom of a section with slow, gentle, sweeping cuts that sometimes run more horizontal.

This long axe is single-beveled as well.
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/12 04:51 AM

It's important to not get in a hurry. Americans are impatient and want to remove wood quickly, but this will only lead to bad things. Even if you are built up enough physically that your can actually stand to swing a heavy broad axe with some force all day long, it is still not a good idea. A swung axe of this style can be very dangerous, bouncing and deflecting and surging through the wood into the ground or worse into your foot. But if you take your time and let the axe do all of the work, it is very very easy to control and actually there is very little risk even though your are bringing a heavy axe head that is 8 inches wide down from a height of perhaps 10 feet or more. The only risk here is if the user becomes suddenly very stupid.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/12 03:49 PM

Hello,

Yes, so first will be to make a vertical plane of one of the edges, then hew the side opposite parallel to that one before rotating the blank 90 degrees onto one of the planes and squaring off what will be the underside of the gutter. This blank that the gutter will come from is actually a quarter section with the pith split out. In removing the pith section, it separated nicely along a single growth ring leaving a naturally concave surface and that is what I want to maintain if possible, for the gutter. This may or may not actually work and in the case that is doesn't I use first a gutter adz then smooth out the bottom with a plane. Sometimes there will also be a profile planed on the outer lower edge though not this time.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/25/12 01:13 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for the clarification on the gutter, and how you are going about its manufacture it is very interesting about removing the growth ring to leave a concave depression for the rain. I do believe that is no doubt the best explanation I have ever heard dealing with that subject~!!

I wonder if any of you guys have ever heard of a gutter hidden in the edge of the roof, At UCV the Robertson house had such a gutter, created out of a full length timber, which was lined with sheet lead.

Replacing the timber was a job handed to me quite a number of moons ago now, and was in conjunction with a roof replacement, the sheet lead run up under the shingles a ways to catch any drips

The timber itself was quite large, and rested on blacksmith made drift pins that were driven into the upper plate of the house.

The timber was massive enough to create the whole cornice , and the facia and other rows of trim were applied right to it, it was impossible to tell that there was a rain gutter from the ground level.

It really was not a good form of construction because any leaks were directed to the interior of the frame,

I noticed that the lead sheets had expanded and contracted ever so slightly, and eventually cracks would appear in places. It looked to me like some caulking had been used over the years to keep it waterproof.

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/12 01:26 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

I was just wondering and for the sake of anyone else looking in who may also be wondering, could you please explain what your rain gutter was mounted on along the edge of the roof?

turning to another subject--- Historic Metal shingles--

A few years ago now I was involved with a roof replacement that had wooden shingles, but the slope was too low, and right where the roof met the porch it always leaked just a bit no matter what we seemed to do, so the decision was made to apply metal shingles which were historically correct for the period, the project was handed to me

It was sort of a fun project because there were a number of factors that came into play, mainly the size of the tin plate manufactured at that time, along with the type of metal, and how they were fastened, and how they were laid

I suspect Ken that you probably have run across examples in your travels, would you like to expand on this subject?

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/12 05:37 PM

Hi Richard,

Please check out the panoramic photo link below which will let you see some typical metal roofs commonly found on barns and other agricultural buildings here in the UK. Though not particularly scenic this type of galvanised corrugated steel roof has managed to preserve vernacular building at very low cost. The box framed farmhouse on the right is probably early 17th century.

English Tin Roofs

I have never seen metal shingles on any roofs in England though folded seem galvanised steel and copper roof coverings are becoming quite popular these days.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/12 09:36 PM

Hello,

I gotta keep switching up to the flat mode on this one. But anyway, That rain gutter you have depicted seems similar in form to the one here at the house though instead of being massive, the trough here is made up of individual planks and moulded lengths forming a cornice, and lined with what they call zinc. The zinc plates run up onto the roofing planks, under the insulation, battens and roof tiles and at the outside curls over the woodwork offering good protection until the zinc is punctured. It should always be free floating, that is not nailed or clamped because it does expand and contract a lot according to temperature and we never use it in lengths over 1100 cm. I have tried showing how it is put together and attatched here.
The supports for the gutters are in fact interesting and varied. My favorite and the method I used in building a workshop, (pictured in the background of the picture), once was just to extend the ceiling beams beyond the outside of the brick walls. The blokgoot or massive wooden gutters simply rested atop these and in fact were so sturdy I could, and would, walk along the gutters. I've also used iron supports newly forged and, when I could find them authentic ones. These having a long enough end to be bricked into the wall with a sort of tail dropping down and arching towards and against the wall for support

There is the one there in front and more in the dark shadow along the side of the house if you look closely and can see them. The other one, of the ones worth mentioning, is sort of in between, being short straight wooden supports usually profiled, extending into the brick just under the wall plate with the gutters usually standing freely atop. Anyway this is what I'm dealing with presently.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/12 01:17 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well, well--both great responses--

Ken thanks for your photo very interesting, but the roofing is quite modern--I agree though it is a very inexpensive roof covering if that is the way one wants to go, but really I am surprised that you are not familiar with historic metal shingle roofing, we have many examples surviving here, especially in the city of "Old Quebec", I also have seen old photos and paintings with examples of metal shingles applied on the angle to the horizontal of the roof plane, on many buildings spread across Ontario, which of course was the Area of Upper Canada prior to 1867 which is the date of confederation, and the time that the present provincial structures were formed

Metal shingles in the historic sense was widespred here during the 1800's, and one of the reasons was the fire protection they afforded any building they were applied to.

Another interesting thing is that the metal plates that were used then came from the mother country England, and had special characteristics in its chemical makeup, and special sizing I suspect governed by the machinery that produced it at that time

Thanks again Ken for coming in it is always nice to hear from you


Don--

Thanks also for you photo and the comment on rain gutters and what I found quite interesting the metal supports with the decorative supporting tail that run downwards toward the wall surface

looking in the background of your photo your workshop's brickwork is also quite interesting, I have never seen anything quite like it, and is quite striking in appearance the way it seems to blend and continue upwards toward the chimney's summit.

Did you copy from an original design or is it of your own thinking

The Way the gutter on the building in the foreground is built into the edge of the roof structure is also quite interesting and remarkable

Well thanks to both of you fellows I'm sure everyone will enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/12 01:21 PM

Hi Richard,

I too spotted the "tumbling in" employed on the gable brickwork of Don's workshop. This is also seen here occasionally on well built buildings and notably on chimneys and buttresses.

I have thought more about the use of metal sheets and now recall that large 4ft x 2ft galvanised metal sheets were used to apply a cheap weather seal to the exterior of planked wooden siding that was applied the the buck of post mills. This looks dreadful and even worse results in the decay of both the wooden siding and post mill timber frame due to the trapping of moisture within the body of the mill.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/29/12 11:46 AM

Hello,

This galvanized iron sheet material is, next to wood and clay, my favorite building material! I really like it, maybe because of the association it has of exploring old mining camps and desert ghost towns in my youth. I try to collect and use it around the house here when and where I can but must say I get the sense that many of the neighbors don't share my appreciation for this great material, being caught up in their bourgeois pretentiousnesses. But I sense this is not what Richard is referring to anyway. Still, I believe it is a much underutilized - and aesthetically underrated - building material.

The brick situation there. Yes, we call it vlecht or vlechten in verb form and it is, or was, fairly common from around the 17th century until the cost ratios between material and labour got flipped. I must credit my bricklayer friend with the willingness to make the extra effort there. It's not only decorative but functionally it ties the top line of the gavel into the face for more strength. I think equally as interesting is the over-all pattern of how the brick are layed in what they call kruisverband or cross bonded we can maybe call it. The corner of every third layer of brick starts with a three quarter length brick, and then half length, or the short length of the brick is used to complete that layer, the following layer being all full length brick and the one following that being all short or half length bricks and then the sequence repeated. I can no longer look at a brick wall with simply overlapping layers and find it interesting or beautiful.

Greetings,

Don Wagsaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/12 02:27 AM


Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/12 02:32 AM























Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/12 02:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

thanks Don for you reply and fine explanations

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/12 06:19 PM

Hello,

Well, I've got to revise my list of favorite building materials, if I may without penalty. Instead of corrugated iron coming third, the ordering would in truth be, after wood and clay, flax, and then corrugated iron. Flax is just so versatile. You've got the fibers for all kinds of reinforcement, from a floor scree to a filler in the plaster or mortar mix. It makes a good insulation itself or in additive form along with other cellulose material. In spun and woven form it can be spanned across a wall attached to batons as a base layer for glueing wall paper onto, and the seeds can be pressed for oil for a whole other range of applications in and related to building. Yes, flax is number three.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/12 02:16 AM

Hello everyone tonight:

Thanks Don for coming on board and your list of building material preferences

Personally I really enjoy working with hard wood like oak, my dad used to say it separates the men from the boys

Oak was his favorite wood and when he died I made sure he had an oak casket to lay in.

In my opinion anyone can work with a soft wood like pine, but put a piece of oak in front of him and you soon find out his skill level, and how sharp his tools are, and his carpentry experience.

I think that everyone will agree with me that producing a timberframe using oak, ash, or any other hardwood, is not near as simple as pine or other soft wood.

Mind you there were many frames produced using soft wood, that are still standing, but having said that I did reconstruct a 3 bay drive shed using white ash (as was the original), and it is hard to describe how or why I felt the difference as I stood there looking at the bare frame after the raising.

One thing that was noticeable was that the connecting girts, posts, beams and braces seemed slimmer and more elegant, with a smoother finish, making the whole structure appear special in some way

Does any one have anything to add to this or have experienced such a feeling??

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/12 03:29 AM

The forests of central Indiana are totally lacking in pine or any other softwood, aside from the occasional scraggly ceder. This means for me that, from little up, my experience has always been with hard wood like oak, maple, walnut, and especially ash -I am very sad to see that the beetle has made its way almost to my stomping grounds, and my beloved ash trees are doomed.

For me, whenever I hear people talk about how hard woods like ash and oak are to work, I think it strange. That's just normal to me. Every now and then I get to take my axes to some pine r fir -transplants- and it's like butter to me!

Yet I have this lofty dream of laying up a house of stacked fir timbers, like my kin in the homeland do. It would be totally impractical, and very difficult, to build a house like they do out of our local hardwoods!
Interesting how there in the homeland (Switzerland) where they have softwood they build solid wood houses, like a super-refined log type of building, while in the lower regions where they have more oak they build timber frames.

I would have to say that wood cannot be beat as a building material, and if I had the option I would live in a Chalet made entirely of well joined stacked timbers, all wood inside and out.

But this flax you mention, Don, interests me. In what form do you use it? Is it just dried and beaten? Is it retted and separated into fibers?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/12 01:39 AM

Hello eveeryone tonight

Well the firewood is all out for next winter, just needs to be split, and piled indoors for the summer.

Now to continue with my project the Casselman handsleigh, I posted a few weeks ago some views of the naturally bent ash for the runners, I now have them completed and ready for the dainty work of mortising the holes for the supporting spokes, that carry the cross framework members.

You know it is not easy working in what I call miniature frames, which is what this sleigh is made up of, and try and follow the way that the original sleigh was crafted, the angling of the runners is tricky because it throws out the 90 degree angling of the mortise holes, and the seating lines which on the original I supect was pretty darn tight and accurate. One has to be careful not to over do the angling and give the runners too much cant.

One thing that I have going is that I do have the original metal braces which give a good indication of the cant of the runners

It certainly is a fun project

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/12 02:23 PM

Hello,

Here, going through the firewood pile like it was vanilla pudding with this cold Siberian high pressure system hanging over. Not to be misunderstood now, the winter here, up untill last week had been absolute crap - warm, wet, soggy, grey - so the cold fresh, and above all dry air now is more than welcome. The wood boiler at full working force out there in the stall keeping the whole house warm enough.

Well Bahler, the last time I reached for flax was about two weeks ago. Doing some plumbing work, and to seal up one of the nut connectors of two adjoining pieces by lining the thread of the male component with flax fiber. Any leakage will soon swell the fibers permanently, sealing the joint. A lot of plumbers are using teflon tape for this purpose, with all the disadvantages that entails. Anyway, not having the fibers ready to use I grab a handful of flax stocks harvested last year and the year before, down from the hay loft, beat, break, twist, scrape and otherwise abuse the hell out of them until the outer dried stem has broken away to leave just the long intact fibers in hand, making up extra just to have when the need arrises for example, short lengths for tying up a sack or bundle. Another time the flax came in handy was last year or so, laying a lime screed floor in the boiler room. With the whole stock - minus the seeds naturally which have to be replanted - lain roughly or randomly spread under the scree, as opposed to mixed through, acting as reinforcement - where you might otherwise use reinforcement bar or re-bar. Well, there is just under 100 liters now out there in the barn, of oil, pressed from flax seed by my neighbor with his oil press, known as linseed oil oddly enough. That, I used in a mixture to coat the barn. Mixed up with some ocher pigment and lime I painted the ceiling in the kitchen. For walls or items within reach it is less good because of the time it takes to dry, but up there on the ceiling it doesn't bother anyone. We used the fine outer portion - a waste product otherwise - of the stocks mixed into the mortar as we bricked up the masonry oven at the other house. Again, it is a sort of flexible reinforcement that can accommodate a lot of the movement that occurs as the masonry work cycles through heating up and cooling down. One might think, huh, dried grass to make an oven? But I am assured that as long as there is no air there is no combustion. What more? Oh yeah, On a more refined level, and also after some processing, the flax is spun and woven into a more or less open structured linen which is tacked to a grid of battens nailed on a plastered wall. Well, I won't go into the process just now, but this linen forms a good tight and flat underground for pasting wallpaper onto with very fine and durable effect. These are some of the uses I've had the chance to put flax to in every form from unprocessed to moderately processed.

Richard, There is some help here for the next half year and to start him off he's begun taking apart and refurbishing the old wheelbarrow with the cast iron wheel I pulled out from the sheep shed down there at the end. He'll be wire brushing and painting the wheel, replacing broken parts with new and remaking what needs remaking, then we'll mix up some paint to make it look sharp in the end. I'll be calling it, The Mellema Wheelbarrow in honor of the previous owner and in all likelihood original maker. Planks of pine, structural components, oak. Sort of a simplified counterpart of your sleigh, minus the family history part though.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/12 06:18 PM

Without air there is no oxidization, but there is pyrolosis. these are both processes that occur in combustion of organic matter. pyrolosis is charring, the matte undergoes a chemical change where it releases a number of volotile gasses such as hydrogen and methane and CO, and liquids such as tar and water. What's left behind is a semi-crystaline structure that is about 80% carbon, and very brittle -useless for reinforcing. This will occur in wood at about 580 degrees Fahrenheit, a little lower for grasses and such.
Oxidization normally occurs after pyrolosis. Essentially, the heat breaks down the solids into volatile compounds which will freely bond with oxygen. Without Oxygen, the carbon will not burn into CO2.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/12 06:52 PM

Hello,

Might your point be that at degrees above 580 F the flax elements in the mortar would begin to carbonize and then provide no reinforcement? Maybe so but only the burning chamber of this oven was subject to such temperature - and even more - and this was made up of fire fast free standing precast elements. After some years of use I decided to reconfigure the encasing and in dismantling it noticed no change in the blocks or mortar other than some soot accumulation here and there inside the channeling. I smashed the excess clay blocks, mortar and plaster all up and reused it in putting the oven/heater back together.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/12 08:21 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well good conversation you guys, but you are loosing me in the technical talk, but I agree with you Don, it seems that flax no doubt has alot of uses, not just clothing

My mother who is now 100 years young wove with flax on her spinning wheel, I have some good pictures of her at work.

Flax reminds me somewhat of cotton with its multiple uses, and there is corn with its whole plant cattle feed, the cob only at times for people, and also just the corn kernel with its multiple uses, corn starch, corn syrup, by products of whisky (distillers feed), corn glutten,--look at wheat the many uses it has for many centuries, oats, also for many centuries, this was a verycommon crop in these parts, Ontario's climate was very well adapted to many of these cereal crops

well back to my project at hand- the Casselman Sleigh--, I will be sharpening up my spoke shave to use on the curved surfaces, what a versatile useful tool--back to work till chore time--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/12 02:52 AM

hello everyone again tonight

Not often I post twice in one day but here I am again.

Ken -- I was just reading through an old copy of Joiner's Quarterly 1997 issue #35, and thoroughly enjoyed your article on the 600 year old "Pembroke Cottage", it sure must have been a great feeling to have reconstructed and preserved for future generations this old building--

In your opinion will this new building be around 600 years from now, or will the original one still outlive it?

Wood I suspect can only survive x# of years even under ideal conditions--dry--especially--my sleigh that I am working on is being reconstructed with only the metal parts the wood completely gone--reconstruction can only be done some from memory, some from the metal parts, some from a surviving example if there is one somewhere, maybe an old photo, and maybe an old painting.

I am maybe lucky because UCV has an example in the vehicle museum that in my mind seems almost exactly like the one I remember

Having the measurements from it to start, and as I compared it to the metal pieces of the original, I find some similarities, but I also am finding some irregularities, like the overall height of the sleigh, 1" to be exact, and a slight difference in the curvature of the sleigh runner's curved front

Well have to go now

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/12 10:36 AM

Hi Richard,

I have uploaded a digi pic of Pembroke Cottage [2011] taken last summer whilst out on a bike ride to survey neighbouring Moat Cottage in Hartley Wespall, North East Hampshire (that's another story)

To say that Pembroke Cottage is 600 years old is probably a bit of an exaggeration - Dan Miles has now dendrodated the cruck framed part of the cottage (on the left) to 1414 and so it's actually only 598 years old. The box frame (on the right) is much newer and probably dates from the mid to late 1400's.

A more up to date 3D image of the Pembroke Cottage box frame can be found in OBR Newsletter No 44 where this features in an illustrated timber frame glossary in the article on pages 4 and 5 - "What's in a word". Check out the other Oxfordshire Buildings Record Newsletters that can be downloaded for free from http://obr.org.uk

I think that old buildings tend to be reivented with the passage of time as bits decay or are removed and replaced and not necessarily with like for like materials (what evidence of this can you see in the photo). It would be very difficult to forecast just how long a timber framed building might survive or at what point in percentage of original materials remaining that we can still call it the same cottage. The secret of long term survival would appear to lie strangely enough with poverty and and to a certain extent in neglect. Generally the worst things happen to these veteran buildings when new upwardly mobile owners move in and begin to assert their will on the component parts of our built heritage sometimes causing significant damage and loss. This is nothing new and it is known to have happened over the centuries as fortunes wax and wane but at least these days there is now a due process to be followed when making changes to historic buildings.

The version of Pembroke Cottage constructed by Tom Musco in Royalston, Massachussetts (up on the border with New Hampshire) was made using local vernacular materials instead of English oak and so this included such timbers as Eastern white pine, Eastern Hemlock, Red Oak and some Yellow Birch. The frame is clad and so is to a certain extent protected from the elements however the internal army of carpenter ants is ever present and remain focussed on their task to recycle dead wood.

It would be wonderful if Tom or someone living local to Pembroke Cottage II could take and post a pic of his wonderful creation. I am sure that it will outlive us all and then, with our passing, so will the joys and sorrows associated with this kind of human endeavour be forgotten, with only the building remaining, holding tight lipped onto the true story associated with the creation of one of New England's future historic buildings.

Vive la Pembroke !

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/12 02:03 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Ken

Thanks for coming on board with the great reply, and the offshooting leads for everyone to enjoy--I certainly did--

The parts to me that appear to not be original, are:

--bricks starting at the bottom section, they appear of a different size, Then moving to the central area they are thinner probably older from my experience, and then the top part seems to be a replacement, but nicely done
--part of the vertical corner post missing, replaced with brick which appear to be a slightly different size but coloured close to the original

--part of the bottom sill also replaced with brick which appears to be a nice match
--All the windows seem modern, the lights are a little too big to be created for the older sized glass

Thanks again for the learning experience for everyone

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/12 12:54 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Ken

It would really be nice if you could explain to everyone what the original windows of this 600 year old Pembroke Cottage have looked like, and what would the glass panes have been made with at that time, I would really find your answer to this query very interesting indeed, and I am sure others would too

Thanks in advance

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/12 08:47 AM

Hello,

Well, to my knowledge - to the extent that I can lay claim to knowledge - in the years 1400 - 1450 there was no trade in tropical hardwoods between regions in the tropic zone and Pembroke so what can explain this gate at the foreground?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/12 02:29 PM

Hi Don,

I will check the timber type the next time I pass bye the cottage but I suspect that as per most modern gates of this type which are found widely across England today that these tend still to be made from oak and not tropical hardwoods. This cottage is located in quite a shaded damp spot and so the colour apparent on this gate is mould. You raise an interesting point as to whether or not all features on a historic site should replicate former patterns and practices but to what date should these comply ?

Richard,

The simple answer to your question about windows and glass is that this type of building predates the use of glass and so any wind hole openings would have been fitted with wooden mullions and sliding shutters. These were located above and below the gable end cross beam and are now covered by the attached chimney (see article sketch).

The chimney employs thin tudor bricks and it has been built to follow the already badly deformed profile of the gable.

The front sill is 10 inched higher than the rear sill and this is because the original sill must have rotted out and been replaced. Evidence of this can be seen high up on the front wall centre post where a "scotch" has been cut into the post to facilitate prop jacking of the whole building using a Spanish windlass.

The gable corner post has rotted off and is now underbuilt with brick and has also had a splint stud added.

The cottage originally had wattle & daub infil external panel walls with these later being knoocked out and replaced with brick. The internal cross frame walls are stil wattle & daub.

A low doorway at the front is now blocked with brick and this is opposite an extant rear door forming a good thru draft for this attached kitchen hall.

The oriel dormer window in the cruck end of the roof is a later insert doubtless done when the cruck hall was floored over after the addition of the box framed kitchen hall.

Regards

Ken Hume

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 01:03 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks to both of you --good conversation--

I am not an authority on glass, but I had thought that production of crude glass had not been tried yet in the 1400's, you have verified that for me--thanks--

So then Ken all window or air passages were closed by wooden shutters of some type or another, and no doubt lead to very uncomfortable living quarters early on in the cold weather areas especially.

How did they overcome some of these problems, I am sure they must have developed alternative measures to deal with inclement weather--I do suspect that the light from the open hearths probably substituted for natural light somewhat, would you care to comment


enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 08:19 AM

Hello,

To be clear about it though, using glass to close off windows goes back much further than the year 1400. It was expensive in the early times and maybe could not be used in this house for that reason.
The wooden mullions for keeping thieves and buggers out, the shutters to keep out the wind and snow and at the same time control ventilation of the smoke from the fire.

I wonder if in such a house farm animals would have been kept along side where the people were living?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 11:31 AM

Hi Don & Richard,

Glass has been made in England since Roman times (2000+ years) but as Don points out it was a very expensive commodity generally available only to society elite and certainly not to be found in a simple copyhold farmhouse such as Pembroke Cottage.

When I examined this cottage I did debate whether the LH ground floor bay in the box framed extension could have been used for keeping a small cow since it had a cobbled floor and an opening to the floor above but it is very difficult to confirm this one way or another. There is an adjacent barn with an outshot stable that features lap joinery and this is likely to be even older than the cottage.

Jack Sobon once pointed out to me that burning an open fire inside a room released 100% of its heat into the room whereas almost 95% of heat goes up the chimney in a fireplace and so maybe it wasn't so much cold as draughty and uncomfortable from stinging smoke hanging in the air.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 06:09 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Good replies--just what I wanted to hear--I thought that glass had been produced earlier that 1400, but wasn't sure--so that puts that part to rest for now, unless someone else wants to further this conversation.

Talking about open fireplaces, at UCV I had my headquarters on site in the hired man's house, which was a open one room log building with and upper floored area, it was heated with a large open stone fireplace, the chimney I am sure one could crawl up it was so large, but my goodness would it throw alot of heat, it always amazed me, I believe like KEN says the fire radiates out much of the heat due to the openess, meanwhile directing the smoke upwards

Thanks for this conversation

enjoy everyone

NH
Posted By: heavydraft

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 09:01 PM

Hi all,
I want to interject a question. Hope this is the appropriate place. I have hewn a few timbers, and have pretty well followed the score up, hew down thinking. This has been long beams and curved braces. Not until a hewn post was used did I notice that this put any effects of scoring facing up, which is contrary to direction a hand would move "down" a post. For washing or for pleasure. I have no historical reference around me, so kinda curious.
Have a good day
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 09:42 PM

Hi,
By way of coincidence I was just looking at a post in the barn that is needing a new section spliced in and it has scoring marks facing down though I cannot say if this is representative of any standard practice. I don't think so though because there will most likely always be scoring markes in opposite directions unless, as sometimes is the case hewing was done by right and left handed hewers or someone with extraordinary ambidextrous skills.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/12 11:56 PM

Don,
as I have said before, you don't have to be a lefty to hew with a left handed axe. My favorite axe is left handed, and is what I use for all of my finishing.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/12 01:35 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Heavy draft--The resulting direction of scoring marks on hewn timbers used in frames have nothing to do with their final position be it up or down or sideways, it is like a game in a casino one never knows where the timber will end up, except if it is being hewn for a particular spot.

Dl--Agree--hewing with right or left handed broadaxes by right or left handed people--might not follow traditional lines BUT as a general rule right handed broadaxes or axe heads handled for right handed people are used in a particular way, usually one that feels the most comfortable and can be used as safely as possible, the same is true for left handed people, and left handed broad axes or broadaxes handled for left handed people.

Some people can chop right or left and feel very comfortable using either hand, I personally like many other people is not included in this group, so I stick to my hand which is right handed, meaning that I grasp the axe or any other tool the closest to the head with my right hand.

enjoy

NH
Posted By: heavydraft

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/12 03:55 AM

Hi,

I imagine it may not matter, but my interpretation of score up (up from the butt, hew down is run out would head away from the finished piece and not into it. I am not particularly looking at a right/left thing, I can chop both ways, though proceeded with hewing lefty because it felt awkward, being left eye dominant. Traditional orientation would put a post with its post down.

Northern hewer I have enjoyed your reflections of your farm years, as I have farmed and logged with horses for a while.

Good night
brandon
Posted By: heavydraft

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/12 04:00 AM

correction- have not proceeded hewing lefty
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/12 08:56 AM

Hello,

We all have our own, interesting in their own right, idiosyncrasies when it comes to this practice, and it certainly cannot be denied that one can pick up any axe and go at it from one side or the other with either left or right hand dominance although this does beg certain questions when talking about an axe with single bevel.
But I have to say that I think of this idea of hewing from the but up as a myth that doesn't really make sense, especially in combination with scoring or notching. The idea as I understand it is based on the theoretical notion that the tree is made up of cones stacked one over the other with the outermost cone ending somewhere short of the one proceeding it and so any fractures will follow the rings outward, and at the same time leading to a thicker but and thinner top . This is fine in and of itself but when knots, whorls, twist, reaction wood to name a few, lets say deviations from that idea, are figured in, the practical reveals the myth.
Maybe in this instance a forum like this one can be useful in either dispelling such myths or providing some actual grounding of the practice. I've put down my position, probably in an overly emphatic way, but lets call it an initial posture.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/10/12 11:59 AM

Hi Richard,

I searched through the photo archives and eventually found a shot of an open hall fire in action, just as it was started up on a late winters afternoon.

Open Hall Hearth

This hall is in North Cray at Singleton and shows the centrally positioned hearth and the hall mullion windows & shuters (lower open upper closed) which can maybe be seen more clearly from outside the building.

North Cray Open Hall

The draught across the fire is quite dramatic with rising sparks leaving a photographic trail pointing towards the hall door which had been left open to help clear the start up smoke.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/12 01:43 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Don:

I did alot of hewing over the years, probably right up there with the record holder, my preference was to do the rough hewing, or knocking off the large sections working from the bottom or butt end of the log towards the top end, then for the final pass I would work backing up along the same side again from the top to the butt end, it was important to work in this way because of the natural run out of the grain of the tree from top to bottom

This final pass was removing about 1" of material, working right down to the blue chalk line, or "working to line" as the old people would say

I hope this information help you visualize the hewing proceedures as used in this neck of the woods,--others may use alternate ways I can't speak for them, I used a single bevel broad axe about 9" in width on the cutting edge, employing a 3" off set handle--

And further to this subject at UCV in their collection of old tools the many broadaxes that are there are single bevel axes, many still with their original handles, some in good shape and others not, and I might say not one double bevel

Hi Ken:-- great stuff--lovely photos--sure shows how the central hearth really works, providing that mother nature wants to cooperate, must have been a bit tricky in a high wind, but then again I suspect they had plan B and C in these cases

I also think about the teepee with the centre fire and the smoke outlet at the top, bet it worked pretty good--maybe even better than cross ventilation--what do you think Ken--just food for thought

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/12 08:47 AM

Hi Richard,

The method of smoke extraction employed was variable depending upon the weather and time of year. On calm days the smoke simply rose and exited through gaps in the roof tiles. This had a slightly antiseptic effect on mosses and liverworts which would normally have grown on the roof with the location of an open hall being clearly visible from the outside by just looking for clean roof tiles. If you look again at the photo for North Cray you will see this effect.

For a clearer explanation on the operation of open halls please check out this link

Open Hall Operation


Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/12 04:19 PM

Hello Richard,

Nah, sorry but I can't make out what you are actually doing. But anyway maybe you could clear up one thing relating to bottom-up hewing then because the way I see it there are two ways it can be done to square up a timber, using single beveled axes:

The One Way

Working side A to completion, laying aside the axe and taking up another axe with the opposite bevel configuration and working side B to completion, freeing up the log, if it's at all secured, rotating it 90 degrees and repeating the process to get a four sided timber. (Not everybody chooses to use a single beveled axe with the flat side towards the wood, so changing axes to hew opposite sides bottom-up is avoidable apparently.)

The Other Way

Working side A to completion, shifting the position of the log to be able to hew another of the surfaces from exactly the same position and orientation and in the same direction. In other words, repositioning the log for each of the sides needing to be hewn.

I guess a third alternative could be, were the stipulation of using single beveled axes dropped - or maybe not, (see qualification at the end of The One Way), to just hew with equal accuracy and speed and competence from both sides changing from left hand to right hand work at will, regardless of the tool in hand.

There is room also for the fourth alternative naturally and that's the one I'm just not able to see right now. Maybe you can point the way around my obstinacy.

The open fireplace that I'm aware of had less to do with heating space - though that too, warmth being more of a luxury - and more to do with cooking and so it was near to where the cooking gear could be suspended. Also the cooking fire was more smoldering embers than raging flame. Some sketches made by Rembrandt depict trapdoor openings in the straw or thatch roof for ventilating smoke. These examples though are maybe later that what Ken is referring to and so might indicate a migration of the fireplace from center of the enclosure to one of the sidewalls. There is a house here in Holland where the residents lived with such a cooking source, along with sharing the room with their farm animals, up until 1920. On a personal note, I once got taken in for a night by some folks out in the booneys who also cooked on an open fire in the house. As long as you are sitting or laying on the ground, which was their general habit indoors, smoke is not a short term problem except maybe at the start of the day when the fire is lit by the woman before the sun rises.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/12 05:08 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Ken, Don and others:

Thanks Ken for the explanations in relation to the way early people dealt with heating, cooking, and the resulting extraction of smoke, --one thing that I was wondering, since we are on the subject, is just when fireplaces began to replace the open hearths in earnest, I suppose someone came up with the idea of a dedicated enclosure for the fire and the chimney to accomodate the smoke, it looks like the Pembroke cottage predated this newer type of "appliance". When was it introduced into this cottage? Thanks in advance

HI Don:

I believe that I have described my hewing process as clear as I can, but one thing that I must say is this:

I completely rough hew and finish hewing one side at a time, rolling the flat side up. I then snap a line on this flat surface, which will be the line that represents the second flat surface to hew to, I then stand on this surface to score, and after scoring I stand down on the ground and do my hewing.

Working in this manner creates a nice square corner each time, this will be the norm for the 3 sides, arriving at the fourth side, I hew using the same technique as the other 3 sides, but I hew out at the bottom on the final pass, and then roll the log the fourth time, bringing the bottom corner up, line and hew nice and square the final corner--

This final proceedure would not always be required, depends on how much of a perfectionist you are, or what use the timber is going to be used for

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/12 06:15 PM

Hi Richard,

Ah yes, you use essentially "The Other Way" then. I would never have thought that repositioning the log for every hewn surface would have been a standard practice but you have enlightened me on that score and I will do some reconsidering in terms of my own practices, i.e., the advantages and disadvantages by comparison. Thanks for laying out the process in more of its entirety though, so often it gets left at the point of reaching the end of the log with no consideration of the fact that there are mostly four sides to every timber, not to mention the two ends.

Thanks,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/12 08:11 PM

hello everyone

Thanks Don for the reply, I was hoping that my explanation would be sufficient, but wasn't sure.

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/12 08:29 AM

Hi Richard & Don,

The general upgrade of open halls to retrofit chimneys started approximately between 1550-70 and by the early 1600's building houses with a chimney was fairly standard practice but the statistics on this topic are still in the process of being researched and compiled following dates that are arising from the dendrodating of more houses / cottages. The date of inserted floors will most probably coincide with the date of the chimney build.

Early houses were sometimes built with smoke louvres which sat on top of the rafters creating a little elevated roof area. Almost none of these smoke louvres have survived but from time to time remnants are encountered in a smoke blackened attic.

Sometimes a long (6ft) clay chimney pot was clamped between a pair of rafter couples above the fire with this pot passing through the thatch.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/12 01:03 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Ken for the information reference the introduction of chimneys into common homes in England, another very interesting tidbit of information that is good food for thought

It is a wonder that there wasn't more fires with the thatched roofs

You know It sort of run through my mind today when I seen an article about carbon monoxide poisoning from open burning fires, i wonder what the powers to be would think of the open fires used for a great number of years to cook and heat, it seems to me that there wasn't a great number of deaths from carbon monoxide through those years, but then I haven't seen any statistics either

I wonder how aware the people were from those years of the dangers from carbon monoxide poisoning or even if they were aware of the dangers

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/12 08:37 AM

Hi Richard,

Fortunately carbon monoxide being lighter than air rises and since there was no upper floor then no one would have been exposed to this danger in the roofspace.

Thatch fires were common (and still are!) and so various remedies were employed including occasionally applying limewash especially in towns where buildings were close together.

Open hall fires were damped down and covered over at night with a large clay pot called a "couvre feu" [fire cover] and this term later became modified to become "curfew" which we now understand as meaning a time by which everyone must be off the streets. I note that The Weald & Downland Open Air Museum now employ these devices as an overnight fire safety precaution device in open hall buildings where fires are burned on the floor hearth.

Regards

Ken Hume
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/15/12 08:40 AM

Hello,

Well, there were fires as a direct result of the use of straw and thatch roofing. Fires that laid whole cities and towns low and that's why, also around this time, 15th century, in say Amsterdam for example, the government boogies mandated hard roof covering, which meant tiles. No more thatched roofs in the city - imagine that. And it went even further. Not only the roofing changed but timber framed structures were replaced by brick and even the timber houses that were left were given brick facades and enclosures. A lot of times you will see these facades which seem to be tipping out over the street. That's because the brick wall follows the jettied timber construction being held to it with iron anchors and pins. There are more timbered buildings around than is apparent, they are just hidden behind these facades.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/12 05:09 PM

Hello,

The couvre fue, in a more modern iron version than the clay ones Ken Hume mentions, here in the lower corner of the picture
And then another one in a different place but almost exactly the same there behind the chair

And the fire in action to which they belong, at least one of them and they were such good fried potato cakes I must add.
Just some pictures I've taken at different places around here that are interesting to visit.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/12 05:57 PM

Don,
as I read this I eat the traditional Rschti,
Swiss potato cakes, this one with cheese on top.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/12 06:02 PM

Hi Dave,

Got a recipe?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/12 06:09 PM

Sure,

take potatoes, preferably small ones
parboil them with the skins on, let cool slowly a few hours or even better overnight. If you refrigerate or put into cold water, they get too sticky.

Take a knife and scratch off the skins, they should slip off without having to take any of the flesh from the potato.

Grate potatoes by hand, a cheese grater works fine. Machine grated potatoes are too mushy.

In an iron skillet (it will stick to stainless steel) melt butter.

Form grated potatoes into cake, and put into hot pan. cook on a medium heat about 5 to 7 minutes on a side, covered.

To turn cakes, the traditional way is to slide out of the pan onto a plate. Put another plate upside down on top, and flip the whole mess over very quickly, then slide back into pan with new butter.

The Rschti is usually about 5 to 6 inches wide, and 1/2 to 3/4 inches thick. It should have a crispy outside and a very light, fluffy inside.

This is the basic version. You might mix onions or herbs in with the potatoes, or you can top it off with 2 eggs or with cheese -but use a Swiss cheese. I made my lunch with a topping of mixed Emmentaler and Le Gruyere.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/19/12 07:25 PM

Hi Richard,

Recenlty catching up on historical roof material and came across these thinking it might be what you had mentioned here in your posting on the topic. I know it looks like just a stack of zinc plates in the picture but they are being offered as zinc dakpannen which you might call zinc shingles. Not inexpensive if I remember rightly.


Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/20/12 01:07 AM

Hello evryone tonight

Hi Don

Thanks for the post and the picture of the zinc (roof) plates

Being zinc coated I suspect that they are of an old type before galvanizing, the older version contained lead and zinc and would last for a very long time exposed to the weather

Some of the latter versions contained copper, lead and zinc and were exceptionally weather resistant

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/12 05:03 PM

well hello tonight

Sorry for having been away so long but have been under the weather

I had a fellow bring me a couple of handsaws to sharpen the other day and I finally felt able to get at them yesterday.

I have seen alot of handsaws in my day but one of these is particularly interesting--it is a Disston and in the embossed inscription it has a notation saying that it is "for cutting steel"--(this inscription is below the regular disston insignia)

This saw appears to me to be a regular hand saw--10pt-- so it certainly is not for cutting steel

Anyone have any ideas?

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/12 05:16 PM

repurposed or replaced handle, perhaps?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/12 08:43 PM

Hi DL

It doesn't appear to have been tampered with in that respect and in my opinion to be able to cut steel it would need to be a hard type of steel, and probably 20pts, and not shaped like a regular handsaw, it is very unusual indeed but I am bound to try and find an answer.

I did some investigation on the internet, on Disston saws but to no avail

Maybe someone that speciaqlizes in collecting disston saws or a museum that does--The disston saw company might have some information

NH
Posted By: Roger W Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/12 11:45 PM

The saw is perhaps a Disston 340 through 343 series saw, termed a "hack hand saw". It has the shape and handle of the No. 7 carpenters saw. Reference the Disston catalogue of 1918, pdf image page 41 or catalogue page 184.

http://www.roseantiquetools.com/id57.html
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/12 01:32 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Roger

Thanks for the wonderful info and Rose Antique tool site

I checked out the Disston 1918 catalogue, pg 184, and the saw appearing there is identical to the one I have, but the #on the saw is 240 there doesn't appear to be a #240 in the catalogue, I suspect it may have been produced in a previous or later year, what do you think?

Thanks again for the lead I really appreciate it!~!!

NH
Posted By: Roger W Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/12 03:47 AM

Hi NH

Looks like the 240, like myself, is post WWII era.

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/gallery2.html


Good luck.

Edit. The 240 seems to have a later and cruder D8 style handle than the 1918 340 which has a shapely NO 7 handle and blade with nib.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/12 01:21 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Roger for all your help, I really appreciate it, and I think that many looking in probably learned much, and sharpened their enthusiasm for the appreciation of old tools

The older I get the more I appreciate the finer points of the tools I used, and will pass down to future generations

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/12 08:50 AM

Hi Richard,

I hope you're feeling better and that your up to looking in here still and passing on some of your knowledge to those of us who can learn from what you might have to say. I have one question, a conceptual one, about axes in general and that is the following; is the axe a greenwood woodworking tool only? And if so how does that inform us about sharpening geometry, angles of cutting into the wood, producing a good surface finish, in fact the very choice of wood to use an axe on, or any other consequences you can thing of. I realize that there are many assumptions in my query as I read back through it, but as clumsy as it is, you might have a comment or two.Thanks,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/12 12:36 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don:

Well I am feeling a little better now and appreciate your question

Predominantly axes in general were best used on green wood, I will give you a good example:

Take an Oak tree --one of the harder woods growing--walk up to it and cut off a 3 or 4" diameter limb, it cuts fairly easily--let it lay there for 6 months or so and then come back and try and cut it through the centre, you will see what I mean

Now this cenario goes for just about any working with wood project, and I said just about--hand planing and the like seems to like a dried surface for one example--- maybe others might jump in to this conversation with some pros and cons, let hear some comments

This topic is great for those learning to "work with wood"

enjoy


NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/12/12 07:19 AM

Hello,

I can think of one kind of axe used primarily on seasoned wood. Piilukirves.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/13/12 11:42 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Well Don I went on your site looking for that axe couldn't find it, but did enjoy your postings

The ones on slaughtering are really good and it brings back old memories when we killed and dressed our own animals--you are lucky that you live in a permissive society, here in Canada it is really taboo to kill animals on your own property even just for your own use

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/14/12 05:14 AM

That may be true in your part of the country NH, but in Saskatchewan it is still common practice. I grew up on a cattle farm and we often butchered and ate our own meat. We also live with a fairly large hunting culture here. I'm told it lowers the stress level of the animal and creates a better meat.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/16/12 08:30 PM

Hi Richard,

Much could be said about piilukirvees and Finnish axes and axe culture. Here are a few more or less interesting places from the internet to look at if you care to.

Piilukirves

And

Finnish axe

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/18/12 10:20 PM

I would guess that these axes fall into the same family as similarly-formed axes such as the German Breitbeil and some Swedish-style broad axes with the long sockets. Although that is not to say they are the same thing. I suspect that this finnish axe and my goosewing both have a common ancestor somewhere down the line.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/16/12 12:56 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well its been a while but here I am again ready to talk about old times and all other topics

I just received a great assortment of old tools and I am going through them to get a handle on their age(s), and makers, it is wonderful how you can go in the web and bring up information that would otherwise be very hard to come by

I am right now studying a hand plane that has a very unusual adjusting mechanism, it has a metal base, and cast handle with a lever to adjust its depth rather than a screw adjustment method

will be back on shortly4

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/16/12 01:53 AM

hello everyone tonight

well here are a few items from the collection

saw set Morril's--------------- pattented 1840
saw set LA Sawyer & co--------- manufactured newark NJ
saw filing vise--diston--------1900--completely adjustable
adze--373 1/2------------------Sheffield England-good shape
adze handle-caverhill learmont & co--"cavelier"
diston hand saw--D8--philadelphia PA--
Bailey plane--#5--made in usa--godd conddition--

well that is it for tonight

enjoy comments

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/21/12 01:15 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Sure a good thread on the tool forum, that is covering sawhorse design, one thing that is close to my heart along with hewing timber

A few years ago I had to put together a group of tools and associated supporting work tressels for an accurate timberframing display, to do this I researched the archives at UCV for any appropriate information,in the end I found an engraving of workmen working on heavy timber supported on medium weight wooden horses, that were manufactured using 3" square wood pieces incorporating a wood shelf nicely morticed into each horse's legs, placed into position as each one was assembled. everything was wooden pinned together rather than nailed

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/26/12 01:56 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well the fall work is now just about wrapped up, it soon will be time to hit the shop and begin another (hopefully) interesting project

I try to pick out something that is historical in nature, it usually brings a challenge, because | have to draw on, and sharpen up-- past skills------ and best of all open up the tool chest, and get out those well worn tools

You know as I gazed on that photo of the group of carpenters that was published in the tool forum-it took me back to my younger days, to a time when I said to my father--"dad I think that I will try working as a carpenter"--A few days later he knocked at my door with an old tool chest of his, containing some old tools, and said to me--"these old tools will look better than new ones--there will be time to buy new ones later on"---I was about 22 years old then-------

A while later A construction Company moved into our area and was hiring carpenters--I said to my father--"I think I will give it a try"

I will never forget how things evolved, I din't really think that I had a chance but anyway I visited the bare site containing a small trailer, and knocked on the door, the door opened and a big red faced Irish man stood there looking down at me--his name was Danny Kerrigan--and said to me--"what can I do for you sonny"--I said--"I am looking for carpenter work"

He said 'you look sort of young to be a carpenter"

In reply I said "if I can't do the work you can fire me"

He really like my reply and told me to come on in to work the next day

That chance meeting started my lifetime career--I found work--It was the best job I ever had--and it wasn't very far away!!

There is more to this story

hope you enjoy

NH,
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/27/12 06:51 PM

well hello everyone tonight

As I promised there is more to this story------

To continue I have to regress to a time early in my married life and career just starting out then----

My Aunt Rev. Gertrude Maude Hayes made one of her yearly pilgrimages from Cleveland Ohio to visit her brother (my dad)--she just loved coming and getting out in the grain field--helping to stook the grain, and just being part of farm life again for a short period--anyway--my aunt was a spiritualist minister, many would scoff at, but not me no sireee----

Before she left we all would get together and we could ask her one question, as my turn came around, I asked her--"will I find work", because money was very tight and I had a young family to feed, and there was no work around---

Well her answer was--" you will it will be the best job you ever had and it won't be very far away.

I forgot about her answer at that time but a short time later--a construction company moved into the area---need I say more---

there is more to this story


hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/27/12 07:08 PM

hello everyone tonight

I hope you are enjoying my trip down memory lane, and if you are come on in and let me know, maybe you can help me prepare my winter project please do--I am looking for ideas for an historical wheelbarrow--if you have access to any I would appreciate the help--

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/27/12 11:06 PM

I saw this one a while ago was suppose to be from the 1640's

Attached File
DSCF0059.JPG  (533 downloads)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/12 01:12 AM

Hello evereyone tonight

Thanks Jim for coming onboard with the early wheelbarow attachment,I will file if for consideration and eventually make a selection

It certainly is interesting, I might say that with additional hand work--hand planing, rough dressed material, chamferred edges, the true identity of this wheelbarrow will surface

Thanks again

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/12 06:12 PM

Hello,

The closest thing I could add that might help is this wheelbarrow which I repaired this last season finishing it just in time to bring in the apple crop.



I found it like this when we moved in here and would have liked to leave it that way but after a few years it was just to broken up.



I like to keep the axle fatted up with some of that lard that's left over.Use it now every day to haul wood up from the shed.

My grandmother's sister was one of those spiritualists. She cured my warts.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/12 02:25 AM

hello everyone tonight

Don--Thanks for coming in with your addition to my file, it sure isexciting to see what types\styles of barrows are out there, yours isfrom a different culture and country, but similarities abound

I like the metal wheel it reminds me of the barrow we had here on the farm when I was growing up--I didn't know enough to keep track of it--

It is interesting that your family had some connection to my Aunt's church--thanks for that tidbit of info--it would be nice to hear from others--

thanks again

NH

The styling of the body is also quite nice, fairly sturdy, but yet has finesse qualities

thanks again

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/12 02:51 AM

well hello tonight

As I promised before --there is more to the story--

Again we regress back to when I was about 5 years old--My Aunt came to visit us that summer, and while she was here there was a drowning in the Canal west of the village of Morrisburg, and the police could not locate the body--well they visited my aunt here on the farm because they had heard of her unusual powers of locating loved ones--they asked her if she could help them--

to make a long story short--she told them where to go and they would find who they were looking for caught in a roll of wire--well need I say more, I have a lovely photograph of my family and my aunt that was taken by the Toronto Daily Star at that time

I have many more interesting stories dealing with Aunt Maude but I think that is where I will end this topic and I would like to go back to my project for this winter

Ihope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/12 03:17 AM

hello everyone tonight

Don--could you do a favour for me, and maybe for other interested ones looking in, and seeing that you have that wheel barrow right in front of you--could you list few of the dimensions for us, like the wheel's size, total length, width, height of the frame, cross sectional size of frame members --other items are obvious from the photograph

Thanks

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/12 07:38 PM

Hello Richard,

Hopefully with the help of the illustration I can convey to you the measurements you seek. The units of measure I use are millimeters.


Wheel diameter - 540
Distance from end of boom to center of the axle mount - 85
boom width - 65
" length - 1540
Height at center from ground - 600

Distance between outside of the booms:
front - 330
rear - 585

If something is not clear I will hear from you.
Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/30/12 02:35 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for your prompt reply, and measurements, that sure gives me a good starting point, a good example, even colour, which seems to me to be another conversation piece

I lean towards the historic rusty\ red colour, but everyone is different

Thanks again for the info

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/30/12 02:46 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for your prompt reply, and measurements, that sure gives me a good starting point, a good example, even colour, which seems to me to be another conversation piece

I lean towards the historic rusty\ red colour, but everyone is different

Thanks again for the info

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/30/12 07:56 AM

Hello,

Looks like you hit the enter button two times there Richard. The only signs of a finish on the original wood, much of which is still present, was motor oil. I can't say if the wheelbarrow ever was painted but because other implements here are painted they became my starting point. Ultramarine blue was a very common pigment for use in and around the houses here. My original examples at first appeared to also be painted with this color but I realize, now that I can make a comparison, my conclusion was based on the assumption that the paint had at least in part an aesthetic aspect. In fact I am now thinking that the paint was strictly functional to provide protection to the wood and that the paint used was the common primer which was a simple oil binder with lime and enough black pigment to make a grey coloring which would then give a uniform base under the top coat and at the same time act to deepen whatever color was used there. So the paint I thought was faded blue is actually grey, and if anything, were I aiming at a strict restoration, the wheelbarrow should be that color. Well, I'm not living in a museum and the choice I made is also a reflection of another set of values.
It's funny how the practice of fixing or renewing an old piece can give or reveal insights into the possible thought processes of our predecessors.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/12 01:45 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming back with your insight and observations concerning colours--It is an area that I was involved in during my working career

We had 3 excellent historic restoration painters at UCV starting about 1958 right up to a few years ago--our first painter Ogle Workman was from England, he worked with and in conjunction with the team put together to put the finishing touches on the exterior and interior surfaces that required painting--he would mix from scratch using combination of various pigments and white lead to come up with the colours uncovered from the walls and other surfaces as they were meticulously removed layer by layer

Some attention though had to be noted to allow for fading of the original layers, through the 100 or more years that they lay buried under as many as 20 other layers applied overtop though the years.

He also was an adept paint grainer and could apply that type of finish when needed.

Colour is a fscinating topic even to the dyeing process, one that my mother was very adept at, she could come up with lovely colours from various plants, barks, nuts, and the reds especially which in this part of the world was produced from chenille, which was imported in, I believe from south America.

You are welcome to come in with any input that you feel might be interesting--you seem to be a very deep and responsible thinker

Hope you all enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/12 07:37 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Yes-- I agree about the thought process of those craftsmen of the years gone by, one thing that I learned over the years was not to second guess their line of thought, or their reasoning because it usually turned out to be the best avenue of attack on any problem or technique.

Getting right down and examining their structures that have survived many generations, will and does provide answers to questions that come and go from time to time--

just one aspect--the number of wood pins in any joint, their size and type of wood, their placement, drawbore, shape and length, and if they have withstood the forces that they were designed to withstand

I have ran across examples of poor craftsmanship where the builders have not used good judgment in their construction tedhniques, one was a driveshed that hadspred in the centre because ofthe strain and weight of the roof and snow loading had overtaxed the cross stays and their associated connections

As we leave tonight, are there any other wheelbarrow examples out there, if so I am truly interested in seeing them

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/02/12 10:55 AM

Hello,

What about foundations Richard? Can you make a generalized description of maybe not more than couple of categories of how these would have been handled in the time period you were working with. And could you point out advantages and some disadvantages of the way you saw things?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/03/12 02:59 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don and others looking in-----

I guess you could place foundations in 3 or 4 categories depending on one's knowledge, heritage, status, and or area of settlement

each category would influence one's choices of building materials with which to create a foundation

generally speaking barns and outbuildings such as drivesheds, and storage buildings would probably be placed on large flat stones at all load bearing points

I hope this begins this line of thought

join in everyone

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/04/12 01:23 AM

hello everyone tonight

to continue----foundations---hmmmm

Well I've seen many orignal ones in my day, but lets be sure to mention that my area of esxpertise is upper canada, which stretches along the St. Lawrence, from the Quebec border in the east--to Kingston in the west--and north to the Ottawa river, an area settled by United Empire Loyalists that emigrated here in 1784 from the Schoharie Valley area of New York State

These settlers brought building techniques that had their roots in Germany, England, Scotland, Ireland and France

This mix of peoples and ideas quickly mixed as the population mixed (boys and girls), and out of this mix barns and drivesheds,churches, homes, mills, shops, soon began to appear and of course they needed foundations to sit on

In this area the newly cleared land gave up its cover of stones that were mostly of glacial till origin--smoothed and rounded, and buildings such as small wood frame sheds, barns and other out buildings sat on the larger ones, strategically placed under load bearing points

Homes required a cellar and the walls were laid up using smaller stones held in place using lime mortar

there is more to this story

must go now

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/05/12 08:14 AM

Hi Richard,

This geography you describe sounds to me very much like what I know of Sweden where they build storage cellars separate from the houses, sometimes in the side of a hill or sometimes more or less back filled.
The lime mortar would be an important component in these foundations I guess along with structural and finish materials that were not all to stiff or brittle. What about advantages and disadvantages the way you see it?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/05/12 07:43 PM

Hi Richard,

Here is a drawing from around 1840 and something which I have cropped down to bring the part in focus that might interest you there in the background. you might be struck by the arch of the bow of the wheel barrow, very practical.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/12 03:08 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for the additional photo showing what looks like a fairly adaptive type of wheelbarrow in the background.

I would say that he was transporting hay on it, or some other type of feed, maybe grain.

It does show quite readily the front wheel and the fairly substantial turned axle, as well as the front support for the crop he is hauling--it no doubt is or has a flat deck with no sides

You want me to "look at the arch of the bow", I really can't understand what you are referring me to, maybe you could clarify alittle

Maybe you cropped off some of the details, could you take another look Don

I hope everyone is enjoying these exchanges as much as I am

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/12 03:23 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Separate cellars-----

You mention that this is quite popular in Sweden,--I could be wrong but I don't think that they were very popular here-- in my travels here I only ran across one example, and it was located about 5 miles from where I live, in a small hamlet of Dundela Ontario---this is quite a famous little area-------Why?---well it was here that John Mackintosh discovered a lovely red apple tree growing in the bush on his newly acquired tract of land (approx. 1784)--One that he nurtured and developed into the world famous Macintosh Red apple--found in nearly every grocery store in North America

Well right across the road stand a lovely early home and in the front lawn is a small mound gently rising out of the lawn. The owner took me down in it and I was amazed at the coolness right in the middle of the summer's heat

hope you enjoy these reminiscings

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/07/12 02:56 AM

Hello everyone tonight

It was aa nice sidetrip--talking about separate storage cellars, those old timers realy knew a thing or two about plain everyday living for sure---My uncle who farmed next to us never had electricity on the farm, no running water, no indoor plumbing, no road snow removal in the winter, things just sllllowwwweeeed downnnn come Decembuuuurrr, time to just regenerate a bit, visit the neighbours, keep that old wood fire burning so that the main room in the house was comfortable, the other rooms welllll you went to bed with your long john's on.

My father who had just returned from helping build the Alaska Highway (1943-44)--he constructed many log hospitals in strategic locations there--had brought with him army issue sleeping bags, bear skin coats, high felt boots, and what I loved best of all the down filled bed covers that when you slipped into felt like heaven, warm, and soft, on the coldest night just your nose was cold---

Everything you ate,came out of the cellar, and the meat well--the beef was hung up on the barn floor--froze solid,-- with a white sheet over it, you just cut off what you wanted--I want to tell you we ate well, I really remember the beef ribs roasted in the wood oven, man-- what a taste--today they would throw you in jail for operating an illegal slaughter house, imagine killing your own beef!!!!

It is my firm belief that everyone especially our young people should be taught on a regular basis certain aspects of plain living just for their own good--you never know--maybe that butcher shop and supermarket's supplies could overnight disappear--it make me shudder at the consequences

hope you enjoy as we make our way towards the Christmas festivities

I enjoy everyone who silently visits, just say hello and where you are looking in from--I am interested in hearing some of your tales--after all this is winter and time to reminisce about things gone by

The best part of winter is just around the corner--going to the bush, to cut next years wood supply, a few logs and maybe see the fawns from last winter playing and watching us as we work

Well enough for tonight

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/09/12 08:55 PM

hello everyone tonight

I've sort of made up my mind to reproduce 2 historic wheelbarrows this winter, the first will be a 16th century type, scaled down so that it holds nicely 2- 10" flower pots, this order was placed by my wife,and modelled after jim's submission, the second will be a full scale model similar to the one Don submitted

Thanks to both of you

Now to the drawing board to do some scaled sketches to work from, and then to visualize and organize how I am going about the actual work. The material is up in the hay mow where it awaits selection, this is a tradition that was instilled in me by my father, who was always squirlling away boards of all types on one side of the building, by the hay bales.


If any of you remember I restored 2 Garrrison carriages about a year ago now and all the ends of the oak pieces are up there awaiting a needed project, nothing is threw away

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/10/12 02:41 AM

Hello everyone tonight

You know that as I am sitting here, my mind slips back in time about 70 years infact, I am just getting ready for school and mother who is now 101 and counting ismaking sure that I am bundled up warm, there is a noise--bells--and up drives our school bus of that time--a team of horses and farm sleigh, full of kids, I am jumping on for the short drive to ss#10 the one room school just up the road

There really was no excuse to not go to school, because this sleigh also carried the teacher, actually it worked quite well, we were just like one big family--I was just 4.5 years old at the time---going right into grade one--

With Christmas right around the corner the days now were filled with practices for the Christmas concert--that was after we got warmed up around the old pot bellied wood stove someone had started about an hour or so before we arrived--also had to thaw out the ink wells that froze overnight--but start we always did, lessons first students from each grade would recite or do work on the blackboards, us younger ones would study with wonder the complexity of the grades ahead of us, and wonder how we would ever master those things--

The cabinet at the side of the room contained all the various books needed to slowly get us to master the alphabet, and word sounds as we put together simple ones that rhymed as I remember it---

right next to it stood another cabinet and shelf with a very large dictionary, the pages of which had many years of leaves pressed, the smell of which I can still remember--it will never go away---so wonderful--you know in those daysback in the fall of the year--you would go on excursions to the bush to retrieve more leaves from the different trees and learn their different characteristics--another thing we did was pick the ripe milkweed pods for their silk, the bags of which was sent away for the war effort raging then in Europe--it seemed so far away--life went on as usual for us other than rationing, and local soldiers coming and going--

My mother decided to visit her mother in California--dad was up on the Alaska highway (1943) and away we went on the train from Morrisburg--quite a trip indeed--another unusual thing happened on this trip--

MORE TO THIS STORY!!!!

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/13/12 02:00 AM

well hello everyone tonight

Getting to the train was by cutter, right at Christmas time, my uncle Tom doing the honours, he waved as we pulled away, I watched him turn and head back to the farm, bucking the large snow drifts.

Well we seemed to roll along for ever trains at that time stopped at every major and minor place along the route but eventually we crossed over into the USA at Detroit Michigan and then we came to Chicago.

This is where the story becomes weird--My mother wanted to show me the dressed up department store windows as she remembered them in San Francisco where she grew up, and get a good meal at the same time--unfortunately we missed the train which pulled away without us.

At that time there was 2 routes across the US one was the northern route, and the other the southern one, my grandparents expected us to arrive on the northern one, but as I said we missed it and had to catch the southern one instead,--no instant communications then to alert them of the change.

Fate must have been with us because the northern train was in a bad accident and many were injured and some killed, my grandparents were alarmed to say the least when they got the news, and were flabergasted when we arrived on another train later on unexpectedly.

My mother and I often reminisce about how this seemed to happen, as if fate wanted it that way--I seem to think that it was not our time.

One thing that I remember as part of the trip was the train loaded down with young soldiers heading to California to be shipped out to the war raging in Japan, Hawaii, and other locations, many of them knew that it would be a one way ride.

Mother and I rode in a car special for mothers and children but we had to pass through the cars with the soldiers to get to the dining car, and as we passed they would stuff my little pockets with coins--they did alot of gambling on the floor of the coach to pass the time.

I always said as my life unfolded, that there always appeared to be a reason for everything that seemed to happen

Never did I think that someday I would ever be important or lucky enough to be a host to such a wonderful group of professional people, that came to hear what I had to say at Montebello Que, or the gathering at Morrisburg a few years ago, It was a highlight of my career

Having said that, I think that I will sign off for tonight

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/17/12 02:59 AM

hello everyone tonight

Sorry for wandering off into olden days but I can't seem to help myself, what I am is where I've been, and what I've done is what I am, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to be with each one of you, and hope that you can gain some insight into what many common folks experienced, at least in my time

As many of you well know my love is working with wood, being fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to learn aspects of the historic trades directly, and many indirectly from other masters of the trades--I wish that all of you had had the opportunitities that fell on my shoulders--one thing for sure if you ever have the opportunity to slow down your world enough to go and experience a 4 or 5 day course in a hands on historic trade, I did and it was a wonderful experience, and I strongly recommend one that broadens ones overall knowledge base, it is very gratifying indeed!--you know that it really sharpens up your skill level because most of the old trade needed that keen edge at every point

Timberframing , hewing, adzing, using chisels, and mallets, appling one's knowledge to complete a difficult task, might need you to reach deeply into your bag of tricks, you might even have to work with other very knowledgeable persons and or tradespeople--I could throw into this mix historic millwrighting, an off shoot of timberframing, mechanics of old machinery, theories of fluid motion, belting, steam power and its related area of smooth transmission of that power to different locations and for different purposes

well I have to go for now

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/17/12 09:43 AM

Hello,

Nothing to excuse yourself for Richard because it's all pertinent and intresting. There are a few points about your wheelbarrow project I thought I'd bring up. The one was the question you had about that old picture where the wheelbarrow is standing. I mentioned the arched bow - using some boat terminology there, but a boat and a wheelbarrow do have much in common if you think about it - and that this is a very practical design element that will increase the carrying capacity. It's just that if you notice, and even other wise, if the front side of the box of the wheelbarrow rises from the sides toward the middle forming an arch, you can stack a higher load of say potatoes from the garden in there without adding proportionally so much more weight to the wheelbarrow as a whole.

And concerning the weight of the wheelbarrow, which, lets admit is a bulky thing as it is, when I rebuilt mine I used poplar wood for the box rather than pine, meaning that I could have even thicker sides and still come out lighter in weight. On top of this advantage poplar wood, being made up of extra long fibers is exceptionally resistant to wear and abuse and was used as floor wood in boxcars and for the floors in hay lofts.

While pine was the primary wood in my old wheelbarrow all of the braces were carved from oak and the frame work of the box was also oak, though I don't see why there other than for durability. These I faithfully replaced where needed.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/12 12:40 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for your thoughts Don---I always appreciate your input, and I know others also do--Also thanks for the clarification on the wheelbarrow construction it rounds out my understanding of the terminology you used, and what I thought you were saying as I carefully looked at the photo when you posted it a while ago.

Talking about poplar wood--its uses--it brings to my memory my father's choice for wagon bottoms--we used basswood--which is also a type of wood without long fibres, and wears well in high abrasion situations but maybe not well in strength. As I remember it the planks were about 1\3 thicker in cross section, I suppose to allow for its weaker characteristics in its structural character. I remember the planks being about 2 1\2" in thickness and about 12" in width

I examined a few barns that had basswood upper plates that were around 100 years old and were in great shape--except--where the roof had leaked at some point in time, you can't really blame basswood for not standing up, no type of wood would have.

I agree to another of your remarks about the weight, the basswood planks were quite light compared to hardwood planks.

I worked quite a bit on construction work early on, and the preferences for scaffolding planks were clear- and straight grained hemlock about 2\14" thick and about 10 to 12" wide--strong but light--

Well I have to go now

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/12 01:58 AM

When you mention poplar what kind of poplar are you talking about?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/12 02:32 AM

Hello everyone tonight again

Hi Leslie

Speaking for myself--poplar around here is not a very popular type of wood, very limited in its uses--except the discussion above of course--it isn't even very good for the stove, although I do burn it rather than throw it away--we here in this area of Ontario Canada, have a couple of natural polars, and a few introduced types like Carolina Poplar, and another type a real slim tall tree the name escapes me --there could be more, maybe someone that knows varieties better than I can come forward

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/12 07:28 AM

Hello,

It's a good question of course and narrowing it down can be helpful in certain regards though I was never so concerned to go that far because the differences in varieties are not as important as the quality of individual stems so its important to go through and pick out the ones you want personally before its milled. For example the Alba version is normally good for nothing but were you to find a stem that by chance had grown good and straight and not to fast, (fat chance), with a good trunk, that wood will be a bit harder than black poplar even. For the rest, Canadian, Black, Italian... the considerations are all similar in its use. Where I come from the Cottonwood, a kind of poplar, is native and in the town and properly trimmed will grow straight and tall but in the natural habitat, out there in the desert growing next to a seasonally running water, it will branch out near the ground and so produce only reaction wood.
If you've got space for storage, or can make it, this is a handy wood to have around for many uses and I will always try to have it milled up given the chance because the last poplar I got had been cut short for firewood and like Richard writes it's not the best wood for burning.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/12 04:16 PM

hello everyone tonight

In regards to my loss of memory of that tall slender variety of poplar it is called "lombardy poplar"--(my mind just returned)--it is very decorative but not much else--and I agree with you Don at times you do run across native poplar growing in the bush usually in a low area that seems to have a real nice straight lower section, and from these logs one can cut nice lumber, usually 2" planks or thicker, which if handled properly will dry down nicely, and I must add become real hard.--

well anyway the wheelbarrow is starting to take shape now--the fun project has started--when finished I am going to mix up an historic colour, probably a deep red, and stripe it nicely freehand using a small pointed brush--I will try and post a picture,--maybe need the help of my family to do that--

As I am always looking ahead I have a project that needs alittle research maybe one of you guys can help me out--I have inherited a lovely old circular grinding stone, that seems to be true and in really good shape--it is approx 24" in diameter with a 3" thickness, (and I might add heavy).

I want to mount it on a nice moveable horse, and have it powered by a small motor

I have the horse, and the motor, and the old bearings so I have a start, what I really need is the accurate rim speed for sharpening--I am guessing about 100rpm, but that might be fast, has anyone a comment?

This stone is larger (in diameter) than the normal hand powered grinding stones were, and even if you try and understand their rim speed, this larger stone might need to be slowed down

I believe this stone came from a waterpowered grist mill because I know that most of them had a large sized stone that could be powered up from a line shaft as needed for various tasks.

They were powered up using flat belts and wooden drive wheels of varying sizes, and were quite simple to use--the belts usually lay quietly on a idler wheel that did not rotate with the line shaft, and as needed were nudged over onto a driven wheel of the same diameter, along side the idler wheel, and just slipped alittle as it gained momentum

Hope to get some feed back

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/12 01:07 AM

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/12 01:27 AM

hello everyone tonight

What have we here?

any comments?

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/23/12 02:23 AM

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/23/12 02:37 AM


hello everyone tonight

the previous picture is a neighbours sleigh that I restored in conjunction with mine--he was the fellow that ended up with the hardware from my grandfather's sleigh, and the deal was that he wanted his repaired in exchange for the metal parts, I did one better, I completely restored his, it was a bit heavier and not near as dainty as the "casselman" sleigh --you be the judge, I will give you different views of both sleds

This is some pics of my grandfather's handsleigh, which I nicknamed the "casselman sled" that I restored last winter,

It is all new wood but I was fortunate enough to have been able to use the original metal parts, thanks to Randy, who was the last owner of the sled, which had deteriorated to the point that only the metal pieces remained

enjoy


NH


Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/23/12 04:37 PM

Hello,

That's just fine. You even managed to get the good old square section nut it seems as I zoom in on the situation.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/23/12 08:57 PM

Hello everyone tonight

here is nother view of the sled showing some more pertinent details

The old hardware gave the proper angles to the outward sloping of the runners, as well as the height from the ground and the overall length

The metal on the runners are in two pieces as was the usual construction technique, the nose pieces come around and down about 6" or so and then the bottom steel comes up to it and meets with a forking technique, and secured at that point with a flat metal headed bolt, (like a stove bolt)

All the large sleigh's metal runners were fastened similar, I suppose to faciliate replacement

enjoy

NH















Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/12 01:04 AM

hello everyone tonight

Here is the final picture for a comparison view of both sleds, as you can see they are very similar sleds but quite a difference in finesse

The lower sleigh is more of a work horse, a little heavier construction to stand up to hard use, the upper one "the casselman sleigh"--with all original blacksmith made metal parts-- is lighter, and is more of an all around useful sled, and make no mistake can take some heavy loads for sure, but is the one that you would reach for to do 90% of the farm chores

I had lots of fun doing both of them, I had to search out the naturally curved stock in the bush, which I did as we were cutting this years's firewood, the oak for the frame came from in house stock pieces that I had squirreled away up in the hay mow

hope you enjoy

NH




Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/27/12 02:09 AM

Hello everyone tonight, and merry christmas, and a happy and prosperous new year--

Looking back on my posts, I would like to talk a little about that framework , back a few posts--no one responded, but it is an old mid 18oo's church being dismantled

Many times I have pondered how the frame was raised, it sure would not be a normal raising for sure with the cross ceiling members, or girts tying into the plates rather than the vertical posts as normal. Also they seem to join the upper plate right where the vertical post are attached, and as you are probably aware that does not leave very much wood for the attaching point when you take out the mortise for the post--I dare say it has withstood the forces over many years for sure.

It could be that the sides were raised complete with the upper plates, but still that would leave a problem of assembling and tying in the ceiling timbers

Anyone one got any suggestions?

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/04/13 02:35 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well winter has arrived in vengeance here in this area, the first major snow fall was a dandy, and temperatures dropping into the -25F area last night--it reminded me of times from long ago, but then we were in an old frame house, that shook in the windy gusts,--2 wood stoves trying to keep the temperature as high as possible at least until retiring to the cold bedrooms, where you slid under multiple layers of quilts to try and keep warm--the problem was your nose had to be able to get fresh air.

Getting back to that frame in the previous post, no one seems to be venturing a guess on how it was erected,

The large rafters were hewn tappered and had a large cog fashioned in the foot where it sat on the upper plate. One of the rafters was laying on the ground adjacent to the still standing frame--Another detail that I noticed was that the rafters were secured to the plate using large blacksmith forged spikes, 2 on each foot

The cog was centered on the foot, but did not run right across the full width of the foot--as well it sat in a corresponding notch in the plate

It was as I wandered into the centre of the naked framework that I looked up and saw how unusual the frame seemed to be with the cross ties mortised into the side of the upper plates, and it was at this point that I wondered how it had been raised, and I have been wondering ever since

I wish now that I had returned sooner to the site to examine it more closely, but when I was able to It was down and the site cleaned, what a shame for sure
I am sure the slides I have probably are the only ones in existence, I am sure no one else cared---

Well here we are and due to those few slides we can still talk about and theorize about how the old timers worked

I hope someone responds

enjoy NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/04/13 04:02 AM

Looks not unlike many a German-inspired church house that one may once have seen in this part of the country, those build by German Baptist (or other Brethren) coming from PA, or Mennonites from PA, Ohio, and some directly from Switzerland.

In these frames, the cross ties like you see there are not mortised into the plates, but rather are dropped in from above with a dovetail joint. A very common arrangement in the southern part of the German speaking world for single story buildings.

In these buildings, the cross ties always join into the plates, never the posts. Actually, the only thing that ever joins into the posts in most southern German framing are the horizontal wall girts.

What can you tell me about the ethnic makeup of the peoples of this area? Was there ever a Mennonite or Brethren/German Baptist/Dunkard settlement?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/05/13 01:41 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks for responding DL--I never thought about a dovetail fastening, that sure would have been something to have seen, ands it all falls into place because the cross ties could be let in after the frame was erected--

My, My-- I sure wish now that I had gone back sooner, what a pity

You asked about the ethnic makeup of the pioneering peoples of that area--well I know that the German speaking UEL's that arrived settled in an area a fair distance to the west of this church's position, actually in Dundas county where I live,this area contained the earliest German lutheran church in Upper Canada (St John's), now situated in Riverside east of Morrisburg founded in 1784--this area contains 3 other lutheran churches
St Peter's in Williamsburg (1865), St Paul's (1875) in Morrisburg and St Luke's (1874)in Dunbar.

As far as I know the area (Stormont Ontario) that the church in question was in, was settled by Presbyterian UEL's, and I knows for a fact that no other Lutheran Churches are in this area

The next area (Glengarry) was settled by Scottish UEL's

So this leaves us with a little dilema about the framing type being of German technical extaction

One thing that I did notice about the hewn timber was the roughness of the surfaces of all timbers except the principal ones which were nicely done

Before I leave though one thought-- would a dovetail in the plate weaken it somewhat it appears to be adjacent to the vertical post which probably had a mortise and tenant attachment at this very same spot?-just a thought--maybe you could comment--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/05/13 08:34 PM

The roughness of the timbers inclines me to say it is not German

But then again, the Swiss-built church house in Berne Indiana has some very rough timber surfaces, which surprises me (they must have been in a hurry to get it up, and maybe did not have a proper axe for finishing)

Swiss framers at least, and what I understand this is true in many parts of Germany as well, make timbers, often even in barns and granaries, as smooth as they can get them.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/06/13 01:18 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi DL and others looking in----

My idea about the variation in the surface finishes of the timbers making up the church frame was that many congregational members gathered together to hew the timbers, the younger and inexperienced members worked on the mediary timbers while the more experienced ones were given the task of creating the principal posts making up the bents so to speak

As I remember it the mediary posts were really roughly hewn, almost like beavers had chewed on them, while the others had real nice finished surfaces.

Getting back to the suggested dovetail attachment of the cross ceiling girts in the side of the upper plate, do you have any ideas about what effect the removal of material to create the dovetail's mortise, might do to the strength of the plate itself?

The plate appears to be about 8 or 9" square, and if that is the case then there would be about 4 to 5" of solid plate left to create the mortise for the dovetail of the cross girt

What do you think?--and does anyone else have any comments

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/07/13 01:26 AM


hello everyone tonight

Here is a shot of one of the rafters that laid on the ground beside the church frame, showing quite clearly the cog fashioned on the foot end of the rafter, it sat on the upper plate and rested in a corresponding notch at that point.

enjoy

NH

Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/07/13 03:27 AM

Do you have any clues or such s to what the roof construction was? Was it purlin supported, ridge beam, trussed, what? This would also give us some clues as to its design.

For example, if it is somehow German, the exact configuration of the roof would pretty well point us to just where the carpentry tradition is from.

Also, certain roof designs would tell us it is probably not germanic (which right now I kind of doubt it is)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/08/13 06:26 PM

hello everyone tonight

Hi DL and others looking in, welcome--

Unfortunately I never noticed the exterior of the church, and the day that I was there the roof structure had already been dismantled, many things I wish I had done then--

I have though been in the attics of 2 of the German Lutheran churches --the one in Williamsburg and the other in Morrisburg, both with distinctively different forms of manufacture--

The church in Morrisburg (1875) has sawn 2.5"by12"- ceiling supporting cross ties with 2 vertical sawn 1" by 12" on each cross tie, centred exactly under the peak to support the weight of the cross ties, the lath and plaster etc.--the ceiling has beautiful rounded corners all 4 sides, to reverberate the organ music, and accoustical speaking is the finest of all 4 churches in that respect.

The church in Williamsburg is about 12 years older (1865), but has a completely different roof structure system (trusses) --It has lower 45foot 12" by 12" hewn ceiling chords in conjunction with 10" by 10" hewn sloping sides timbers to form the complete truss along with a 1" wrought rod support in the centre--these trusses are about 8 feet apart-- and the builder then made use of a length wise purlin on top of the trusses (centred on each side), with one sloping brace back to the bottom chord--The rafters feet then lay on the upper plate, next on the chord, while the upper ends are above the top of the trusses, with no bearing on the truss at that point.

This attic by the way was immaculate and did not show its age at all.

Another neat feature was that the spire which is quite immense sat partially on the front stone wall and the first truss--but this truss was heavier being a bridge truss, the verticals of which passed down through the bottom chord held there with half dovetails and wedges--quite neat--147 years young--and still counting--

You know the trees that produced those 45' bottom chords (pine), had to have been pretty nice ones, from what I know drawing on my experience of hewing long timber--I am guessing the trees must have been 48" on the butt ends, also very straight--to have produced these chords without any wane edges that I could see--I also realize the work involved!!!--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/13 01:56 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi DL and others looking in:

As I ponder the aspect of the erection of the church frame that has consumed my thoughts now for a long time, and DL your thoughts about dovetail attachment-- well taken-- I am putting forward another scenario for thought, I hope that others might comment that have some thoughts about this subject--



As I look at the ceiling network of timbers, it reminds me somewhat of the 3rd floor of the grist mill where the cross girts supporting that floor, mortises into the top plate from the side, the whole timber framing setting on top of 36" stone walls, this style of framing making use of mortise and tenant fastening.

If I was given the job of erecting this church some thought would have been directed to fabricating a raising bee that would go something like this--

The two long centre ceiling timbers, creating a unit-- married to their short centre connecting girts, this unit elevated to the height of the upper wall plates, sitting on 3 temporary scaffolds,

Next the end bents would be raised, sliding the tenants of the long ceiling timbers into their mortises on the end wall upper plates

Then the side walls would be raised, and the remaining ceiling girts would be slid into their waiting mortises

Lastly all the wood pins would be placed

The temporary tressles would remain to be used to support the ceiling structure until the rafters are placed, and eventual supports for the ceiling put in place, whether it would be rods from the rafter peaks, or other types of supports--from the photo it appears that trusses were not used

Well any comments?

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/14/13 02:55 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well it looks like no one wants to venture a response to my question above--Iam sure there are very knowledgeable people visiting this site each day that could give their slant to this historic construction problem--please join in--you thoughts are welcome,

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/20/13 10:07 PM

Hello N.H.,

I tried following along your question. Could you link a photo, sketch, or other graphic?

Regards, jay
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/13 12:50 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hello Jay;

Thanks for joining in--I only have a couple of pictures that show the framework, and I posted the best one on page 94 of this forum, could you take a moment and go there and see what the frame looked like when I visited it at that time--I am sure everyone would appreciate your input--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/13 08:57 AM

Hello NH,

I still learning this system, my view shows only 20 pages for this post thread. How do I find page 94?

Regards, jay
Posted By: Roger Nair

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/13 02:38 PM

Try setting preferences to 10 items to the page which is the default value.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/21/13 03:08 PM

Thanks Roger, I'm still only showing 20 total pages for this thread, and the way the counter is set up your advice came on post #30113.

I'll keep trying to figure it out.

thank's again, jay
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/13 02:54 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for joining in Roger to give a little help to Jay, I am absolutely useless as far as giving help to him--All I know is that it is 2 pages back from where we are now, if that is of any help--sorry for the confusion.

and Jay when you do find that post, I am really interested in your slant on how that frame was erected--say if you were given the job or task of doing that in an historic setting--I am always interested in other people's thoughts

While Jay is finding his way and forming his opinion, maybe someone else might join in, and make this a real learning experience.

You know my father always said that there was more than one way to do everything ending up with the same results, I thoroughly agree what about all of you?

As I wander back and forth through all the interesting threads here on the Guild's site, and other types of media, one thing that I notice is the range of ideas developed through the ages to build timberframe structures, which after there is a covering applied looks quite similar, just the joining together of timbers, making up the upper plates in very long frames necessitated the development of good, better, best ideas, some maybe alittle on the exteme side

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/13 04:00 AM



Hello NH,

Your entry from the other night, (#30075 - 12 January, 2013 01:56) was referencing the first of these two photo, correct?

If so, your description sounds plausible for reassembly, however without better photos I couldn't make any definitive observations or conclusion of a raising methodology past yours.

Is this a project you are working on, or just interested in?

Do you need to raise this frame?

Regards, jay
Posted By: Craig Roost

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/13 08:30 AM

NH,

Your frame looks like this one...



The side walls went up first, then one end-wall, which included the tie-beam, and then by working from the first end-wall, the other tie-beams and interior posts were added, then the other end-wall and tie-beam.


Rooster
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/13 04:31 PM

Hey Rooster,

I owe you and email...Any way, if you look closely at NH's photo and the one you provided, you will note that NH's frame has no interior posts. I agree with you, that I think the exterior walls go up first. Then I start having questions about the frame, which I can not clearly determine from the photo. Does the grid of ceiling girts have "lap joints," or "tusk tenon," on them, and the list of questions go on from there.

This raising would be challenging enough, that I wouldn't want any "lay folk," being involved around crucial areas of the frame's assembly. I believe this is one I would use a "scaffold raising," on. I would want just a few skilled timber wright-riggers that know how to climb well and can rig independently of each other at a relatively high standard, going slow and taking more time, especially if the assembly has "tusk tenon."

Regards, jay
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/23/13 01:34 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well--real wintery here--probably will hit -25 tonight--I think back to my teen years at home--a night like tonight would mean 2 wood stoves stoked right up with large elm blocks, the ones you couldn't split if your life depended on it, but boy great heat!!

Thanks for the great dialogue you two--From what the 3 of you are saying, the suggested raising sequence would be alittle unusual from a normal raising, but similar to the senario I put forward.

I happened by chance, to run across a couple that lives very close to where this church stood, I am waiting patiently for further conversation, I understand that they were members at one time and have photos of it--can't wait to see the exterior view and the roof lines--from what I can gather, it may have been a German Lutheran church in the beginning,(which puzzles me somewhat, because of its location)-- but changed hands a couple of times over its lifetime--I will keep you all updated

Thanks again, maybe someone else will join in

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/13 02:47 AM

hello everyone tonight

here is a shot of the Casselman Handsleigh that I reconstructed ----I got it out a while ago, just to try it out, and my great granddaughter came along and wanted a ride--what do you think --she seems to be enjoying a ride in her great,great,great,great grandfather's handsleigh doesn't she?





enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/13 03:21 AM

Beautiful work and she looks very happy... smile
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/13 01:43 AM

hello everyone tonight

well just surviving this winter seems almost impossible, wind, cold, snow--now another storm heading our way--have to batten down the hatches

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/13 05:08 AM

Hang in there Northern Hewer, I feel your pain. frown
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/13 03:02 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming on and words of encouragement--you know as I think back to those years gone by, and as I was chatting with my 101 year old mother today--it passed my mind about the morning that I struck out for the barn in the dark, couldn't see anything, the wind was howling, snowing and cold, and I run right smack into a snow drift up to my chest, I pushed my way through , and ran into another, this time almost as high as my head--well I pushed ahead, and finally reached the barn door that as I opened it the steam flowed out--in those days there were no fans, so the heat and moisture would build up to high levels--then I began to melt off, you can imagine I was covered with snow which made my clothes soaking wet, with 80 eyes watching me as was usual waiting patiently to be fed, cleaned, watered, it was not a comfortable experience to say the least--soaked to the skin, and wondering about the return trip back, the same way I came--had to get the milk cans to the road, for pickup, what a session--each can weighing 80lbs, one in each hand, a good thing I was in my prime, but that was farming in the 40's, I could hear the snow plow coming, actually barely moving , going forward as far as possible, backing up and then taking another charge at the immense snowdrifts--these trucks had motors probably no bigger than some cars then--trying to do an impossible job--the road was drifting in right behind them, the higher the plowed drifts the worse the drifting--what a sight when the rays of morning came along, you can imagine what an impossible task it was to get the milk cans over the plowed drifts at the end of our driveway

Well got to go

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/13 04:12 AM

Hello NH,

I like your stories. It is grand that you can still have a conversation with your mother. May she continue to thrive.

Regards,

jay
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/13 03:17 AM

hello everyone tonight

well we are realy getting hammered, what a storm--but those poor survivors of hurricane sandy, they sure don't need more misery--

Thanks for your kind words about mother, she just keeps on going, it seems weird when my sister who is 84 is sitting there talking to her, mother looks younger--hair done up, nails painted--memory pretty good--she never had an easy life for sure--but I must say if it wasn't for modern medicine she wouldn't be here--

She was always in the house when I came home from school, just up the gravel road a piece, what memories of days gone by,--dad was just home from Alaska, he went there for 2 years on the construction of the highway in 43 and 44-saw -50F in a tent, had alot of interesting tales, they played alot of checkers to pass the time, he really enjoyed that game for sure--said he was the champion checker player of alaska--I really am not sure about that, but of course I believed him--he would let me win once in a while--he would play my favorite game then snakes and ladders, as I got older the serious things like learning carpentry work, and timber work became #1--never any short cuts--he expected perfection and you know am I ever glad he took the time and effort to make sure that I did just that!!!

well got to go

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/13 07:36 AM

Hello Northern Hewer,

Indeed, this is a storm not to be trifled with, we will see how bad it truly gets.

Reading your description of you mother and sister, reminds me of my Mother, Grandmother and others in my family that had all been blessed with long years. From memories of the 1870's to the 1930's, I was privileged to be taught and regaled by elders that set the tone of my existence. As a timber wright and indigenous skills teacher, I find every day their lessons priceless. I'm just beginning to realise just how rare people like your mother, and others are. There are so many "bottle necks," of oral traditions forming, that I'm afraid when we pace, much will go with us, and the only hope is the "hunger," for traditional knowledge from so many young people.

Stay warm and be well

jay
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/13 05:49 PM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks jay for coming on i also enjoy your comraderie

well been busy getting up the wood for next winter to enjoy--if i am still here--there seems to be so much sickness around, especially in the younger generations--my friends i grew up with are all long gone now--i don't know if it helps but i never smoked one cigarette, of course i enjoyed other amenities--

The warm spell here has caused all kinds of run off problems, but I have been expecting and waiting for it to happen, always does like the sun coming up and going down--water always seems to be watching and ready to take advantage of every little weakness that us humans seem to forget about--

it won't be long until the farmers will be getting that farm itch, they get it about 4 oclock in the afternoon, and really bad after 3 nice days of sunshine, especially when they see little dry spots showing up on the exposed tips of the fall plowing--i used to laugh when my son and i would be attending a farm meeting, and i would say to him at 4 oclock, watch the guys ahead of us--slowly they would slide their butts back and forth for about 15 minutes--looking around--and then faster, and then up they would get and disappear--in about 20 minutes there would hardly be anyone left--the presenter would practically be talking to himself--

nice year in the bush not too much snow and lots of company watching us--one day there was as many as 12 deer watching with curiosity as we worked along--just outside the circle a lone coyote sat waiting, more or less watching dinner walk around--i suspect there was many more not far away--

it is sort of wierd when i was young there was hardly any deer, if you saw one you were lucky, no coyotes at all, no wild turkeys, thousands now--bears come and go at times, moose all over, isn't that wierd or what?--must be that demon climate change-we blame everything on that--i wonder what caused all the climate changes in times gone by, couldn't have been the automobiles, o yes i forgot now its seems that cows are to blame, belching too much gas--have to get rid of them i guess--

well got to go

enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/27/13 09:42 PM

Hi Richard, it is the Sun.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/28/13 01:25 AM

hello everyone

hi Timbeal--nice to hear from you--

well i guess we could blame the sun, it comes and goes, and we really don't know what makes it tick-really--but it does create climate changes each season for sure--hope it soon gets here-maybe bring along some good changes, the ones we go south to find--

maybe its gravity lurking around, making things fall--except the clouds which float along--amazing really--actually they are rising while everthing else is falling--

I can remember when i was young, the old guys would say ,when we had bad weather spells--its those blasted airplanes up there stirring things up--

but really if you believe our scientists, the world has gone through may major climatic changes and for sure there will be many more, and we will not change things in that respect change will come--we might hasten things alittle but the major input is from things outside our control---like our RNA--

well i got to go out now and continue to slit some wood to feed my wood stove,--and add some terrible CO2 to the atmosphere- and give the cows some thing to eat and belch about--maybe hasten the climate change in the right direction--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/13 12:58 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well the winter part of old mother nature is sure sticking around, the geese are back but I bet that they wish that they should have stayed down south a while longer, one thing for sure they sure noticed the corn crib from way up there, it didn't take them long to clean up all the kernels laying around--the pairs are staking out land claims not far from the food supply--

I have the wood supply for next winter well on the way, just finishing up--and on the bad days working on my grind stone set up, coming along nice--referred to the old text book to get grinding speed worked out--they were smart old fellows then because they didn't use rpm's-- rather they note grindingwheel rim, or circumference speed as feet per minute, so it doesn't really matter how big the wheel or how small, just measure its circumference and away you go, in my case the grinding wheel is 86 " around so using their suggested speed of 700 feet per minute it comes down close to what I suspected about 100 rpm in todays jargon

They also included nice formulas to work out pulley sizes that are workable in both direction ie: if you know the speed of the driver, or failing that if you know the speed of the driven, you can work out easily the pulley sizes

--I have the grinding wheel presently mounted on a moveable platform that can be stored away easily, and then moved out for use.

The wheel itself is quite heavy and getting its shaft centered was a task, but I eventually got there, at least for the 700 rim speed recommendation.

I did alot of soul searching to come up with a workable shaft, because it came with nothing but a rough hole about 1-3\4", and not straight through the stone--well my final decision was
1-1\4" pipe--I used floor collars up against the stone threaded on a short piece of threaded connector pipe through the stones centre hole, I spun the collars up tight against the stone on both sides, centering it in the proceedure, I then drilled and threaded lag screws into the stone to hold it firmly.

The collars being threaded right through have enough thread left to accepted short 1\14" pipe on each side of the stone, this pipe protruding out from the stone creates a good support for the stone to rotate on.

I used emery cloth to really shine up the exterior surface of the pipe, that will be in contact with the support bearings

well got to go now, will discuss this project further tomorrow
I have some issues that I might need some help with, please comment or post questions if you have any

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/15/13 07:44 AM

Hello,

Not quite visualizing the entire process there N.H. but I'm sure it's working for you. Maybe if you get the time you can send up some pictures.


Quote:
I then drilled and threaded lag screws into the stone to hold it firmly.


Don't you worry these screws will rust and crack the stone right down there by the hole? Do you use plugs or go right in the stone with screws only? Probably if you cinch those collars down good there will not be to much stress on the screws. I have found some paper there under the collars helps them grip the stone.

Well, I have got the best part of the split firewood stacked in the wood shed too, filled right up to the nook, and today I'll be going further to get the last in while there is still a frost in the ground and I can walk there more easily than in the mud. We're looking at about 30 cubic meters to get through the winter. Had to send my young daughter up there while I passed the wood to her from below. She's getting to be a good stacker.

I sat down at the grind stone myself last week when there was a bit of warmer weather. It sits out all winter and I dare not use it when there is ice inside. After greasing the bearings and linkages up with that lard she ran smoothly and I got a few splitting wedges trued up before getting to wet from all the splashing water.

Looking forward to more on your grind stone saga. And remember, keep your nose to the grind stone

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/16/13 07:53 PM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don and others looking in

Thanks for your comments

I really am not too worried about rust and cracking of the stone at this point, but maybe I should be--I really don't know, maybe it is a point that you might care to expand on

I predrilled the stone with a masonary bit that was just the right size to accomodate the main body of the lags leaving the threads to dig into the stone--seemed to work real well--the stone is somewhat soft and forgiving--I had thought about wood plugs but I have had good luck using this system in the past, it might not work in all situations--wood plugs are good when you are working with real hard stone which might crack--or trying to secure items in a masonary joint which historically would be quite soft, and could fail.

My bearing are going to be white oak, which will suffice for this type of application. The majority of mill shafting of that period rotating at 100 to 125 rpm, used Oak bearings, with a sprinkling of metal babbeted bearings and at times Bronze, it sort of depended on their position in the shafting arrangement, the strain, such as the top bearings near the Turbine linkages, but then there is some deviations in this regard, for instance the shaft coming up from a 1865- 45hp water turbine is 4" in diameter rotating at a max speed of 125rpm is held in place with lignum vitae wood bearings, and the supporting bearing under the spinning runner (the working centre of the turbine)which is quite heavy--spins also on a wood lignum vitae bearing which uses only water as lubrication--now I know that we are straying away from the topic but I just wanted to let those that are looking in that wood bearings were used quite often as bearing material, remembering that overheating was something that needed to be payed attention to--I felt that in my case after pondering the course that I needed to support my rotating 80lb grinding stone oak wood would suffice, especially after you let it intentionally heat up to glass and char the surface in contact with the shaft (this is accomplished by running the shaft dry for a period of time)--a touch of oil periodically is all that should be needed from then on--

Now if there is a heating problem, my solution would be to lift the shaft dig out a little of the wood in the centre of the bottom bearing-- lower the shaft back down, within say a quarter of an inch of bottoming out and the pour in some heated babbet to form a babbet seat--not really a big deal--

I would like to true up the stone which is a bit uneven as it rotates, I have no experience in this regard and need some suggestions from you guys and gals

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/13 11:04 AM

Hello,
As for truing up the stone, I am using this aluminum carbide brick. It goes slow because my grindstone is not in to good a condition, but there is some obvious progress in knocking off those high spots getting down towards the dip as a result of working at it, though winter is not the best time for this job.


Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/13 01:45 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks for that tip Don, but where would one get one of those bricks?--I would certainly try one if I had it--

I was wondering about something on the line of a modern coated tool, one that maybe had carbide or industrial diamond as a cutting and truing medium--

There is some really good stone cutting blades out there but how to use one in this instance is the question--

I guess that I need to go back a few centuries when this type of job would be a piece of cake--looking at the Vatican and its ornate carvings--truing up my grindstone looks pretty simple--

When you think of it we have all the power sources, but not the knowledge

A few years ago I had to work with and repair 3 pair of gristmill grinding stones, the ones that actually grind the wheat--well I am going to tell you that stone was unbelievably hard, an ordinary good quality steel bit wouldn't even dent the surface--it was a porous type of stone and it came from France shipped over here in the 1800's--dressing its surface perfectly flat --laying out its furrows and lands,-- balancing, well it wasn't my job but was accomplished by an old gristmiller from Quebec, my work was to install the water turbine the vertical shafting, and then the 3--36" wood pulleys nestled around the central shaft, under the floor--each one of them powering up a pair of stones directly above--well there is more to this story but maybe there is no interest if there is let me know--

enjoy

(I still need advice on truing up my stone--lets hear what other suggestions are out there--)

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/19/13 02:44 AM

Hi NH,

If I maybe of assistance, beside being a timber wright, one of my other passions is stone, and all it's many enjoyments. I just love the stuff, from climbing it to carving, if we get a good job, I enjoy carving and dressing the stone plinths on a job, as much as the timber work, and rarely I get to carve joints in stone, like scarfs, which is just so fun!!! grin

I have dress a number of grist stone in my day and even helped carve a replacement for one. So much fun. I helped make a sharpening stone, (Arkansas hard sand stone) many years ago. It sat in a wood frame with all wood mechanicals and foot treadle for power. It was the beginning of another passion.

Now "dressing" and "balancing" the stone is critical for good operation, as you well know. Doing this by hand is arduous work, to say the least, especially without glazing or "burning" the stone. Spinning the stone while being kept moist and using a harder stone to ware down the high spots. Uhg! That is grunt work on a fresh stone.

Now, if you are not a purest, and want to get the job done in minutes, (if not seconds,) there is a stone trade trick to doing it. It is a little intimidating, but is not as bad as it sounds. You will need a 4" electric angle grinder and a diamond grinding disk used in stone carving. In a pinch, you can use a carborundum grinding stone wheel made for the electric angle grinder. Please note these can fragment and break if not of better quality and also burn the grind stone you are dressing. Below are some of my favorite suppliers, in order of favorites, should you want to pursue the craft further.

http://www.trowandholden.com/

http://www.granitecitytoolvt.com/home.htm

http://www.granitecitytool.com/

Please give me a ring, should you want to talk about it, or perhaps borrow a diamond carving disc for your grinder.

Best of luck,

jay

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/13 02:02 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Jay:

Thanks for coming in with conversation and some suggestions for me to consider

Those are great web sites to visit I really enjoyed the journey and just might consider a purchase to further my project--we will see--

One thing that I was thinking about was a stone cutting abrasive belt for my belt sander--don't know if they make such a thing--maybe someone out there knows??--I know that just a regular belt cuts the stone quite easily--maybe someone will comment further--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/13 02:09 AM

There is, and they do. It is only slightly slower method than using an angle grinder. It just doesn't seem to do as good a job??? However, you may find it useful to try.

Regards,

jay
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/13 04:52 PM

Hello,

It's a funny thing but the last time I have been on the look out for some more information about a sharpening stone I picked up last summer, a natural sandstone called an Orsas. I read the account of someone visiting the mines which noted all the men 60 years and above were dead and only old women were still left. It was silicosis, or something, from the particles of sandstone dust lodging in their lungs. Not that that's funny, you understand.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/13 05:32 PM

Good Day All,

Silicosis was (is) the bane of all stone carvers, quarry workers and many in the stone industry. The life expectancy of most folks in the trade, (including some of my family,) was less than 50 and most died between 35 and 45. It has gotten better of course with ventilation and mask technology but is still a concern when you do it every day.

The "stone sheds," are what killed many of the workers in all of the stone trade, from architectural to the industrial stone work, (like sharpening stones and wheels.) The small quarries had there own carvers, but they worked outside most of the time and didn't get the concentrated dust you did in "stone sheds." One of my teacher, Floyd was 90 years old when we went back to an old quarry in Arkansas to collect a Blank to make a wheel he wanted. These old quarries are still scattered around all over the place, if you know where to look. The still operate in the Middle East and throughout Asia.

Regards,

jay
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/13 01:57 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming in on this discussion--The dust problem and what could be an ensuing lung disease by all means needs to be addressed, and thanks for bringing it up---

You know--the old millers especially grist millers eat their share of flour dust, and the stone sharpening was quite dangerous because of splinters flying from their mill picks, many had injuries to their eyes--

There are many dangers in the old trades, even in the women's trades, people mostly women who dyed their wool in many chemical concoctions had no idea what they were breathing into their lungs

I became very aware of dangers airborne and otherwise due to compulsory WHMIS training a number of years ago, and since then many new regulations are continuing to come out to keep the environment safe--it sure needs attention--

Now once again I am straying away from the topic--just need to get my grindstone trued up safely, which with all your help and suggestions will come to a sucessful conclusions--going to advance steadily in that direction, it certainly will be a great addition to my workshop --(our) workshop, everyone uses it, even the neighbours mainly because it is roomy and heated, and I might add contains most of the (sharp) tools needed for most projects--some of the projects require getting out a hand powered tool once in a while--

just lately I was restoring the Casselman Hand Sleigh with the naturally curved runners and needed to use a spoke shave to shape the inside curves and edges what a wonderful tool--anyway while I was working away in Came my Grandaughter's husband Nick , I showed him what I was doing and asked him if he would like to try his hand, well I am going to tell you he became an avid fan of hand tools right there

No other tool would put that particular finish on the surface of the wood runners--I finished up with a piece of broken glass another great finish--just try it and see for yourself--

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/21/13 07:53 AM

Hello,

You want to take us on a (virtual) tour of your workshop then NH? I can't wait. But at least, I'm wondering how you are heating the workshop. Sounds real pleasant.

The right shard for the right shape helps get rid of that factory coating that should never have been there in the first place.



Don Wagstaff
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/23/13 01:24 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hello Don and others looking in

Don--I heat with an oil furnace--works good for me--but a real pain to please the insurance and oil co. reps. finally did though with perseverence--

I have over the last couple of years posted some pictures in past posts, maybe you can find them by looking back

Thanksfor joining in

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/13 01:19 AM

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/07/13 01:56 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well here I am sitting on a partially finished 24 footer early one morning--getting ready for the day ahead--many will be stopping by families, oldtimers, and many very knowledeable people like yourselves

We were working on the 3 bay driveshed, part of the collection of outstructures connected with the newly reconstructed gristmill at UCV

this was a full 1 years project starting with the selection of a structure resembling the original driveshed, long disappeared, but found by chance in an old painting, what a find that was--

The surviving driveshed was then located on a property belonging to the Colquhoun family --what a feeling to see this old structure and realize that in 12 months its replica would be standing straight and true--

There is more to this story

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/09/13 11:48 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Here is another view of the timber rolled up ready for hewing--I thought you might enjoy a birds eye view of the set up--this is the way we presented our on site historic reconstruction actually doing the work as historically correct as possible using only period tools

This 3 bay driveshed took 1 year from start to finish and was viewed by thousands of families as they passed by

enjoy

NH


Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/13/13 12:53 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well its nice to get back to some of the basics of timberframing, without the hewn material nothing would have gotten done for sure--

As I look at the above pictures many feelings of emotion come to life, the smell of the white pine, the methodical sound of the axes biting into the wood, the wide eyed children and their parents passing by, the men who have strayed away from their wives to take in and mavel at the slow emerging square timber from the round baulks.

From time to time I talk about how we set up our timbers for hewing, we always kept timbers close to the ground and well anchored with the hand made timber dogs--they were not fancy just round iron bars bent and pointed, we had three different lengths in set of three to accomodate small and larger timbers

As you look at the last picture that I posted you can visualize I am sure how much heavier the timber side to be hewn is than the opposite side which has already been squared up.

The hewing process creates a fair amount of vibration and without proper stability can become hazardous if it happens to work loose, the timber rolling in the direction of the hewer who would have been standing close beside the log

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/14/13 12:24 AM

I enjoy your posts NH. Thanks.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/14/13 01:16 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Dave for the comment, that is what I am trying to do entertain and at the same time try and put forward items of interest, that might be useful to someone out there.

I sure realize that the whole process that we went through to present a full accurate display is complicated to say the least

Preserving this type of data for future generation is challenging-- not just a physical building, but the basics of its construction, and I am going to tell you that when you follow the whole process through from start to finish it is quite an experience, but once reaching its conclusion and seeing what you have created is beyond description.

What I hoped to achieve was that maybe 100 years from now someone could visit UCV or its vault and retrieve information to reconstruct faithfully an identical structure

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/13 01:02 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well I would just like to let you all know that my mother Maurine Casselman, who I mention once in a while in some of my remembrances of yesteryear, and times gone by, passed away peacefully at the age of 101, she was a Gem for sure

Richard
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/13 01:49 PM

Please accept my condolences Richard.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/13 02:29 PM

My Prayers are with you,

jay
Posted By: Craig Roost

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/22/13 01:35 AM

Peace to you and yours...
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/27/13 01:57 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks everyone for your condolences, I sure appreciate it, will be busy for a few days so take care everyone and I will return as soon as I can

NH
Posted By: mcormode

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/07/13 06:42 PM

Hi there! I am new to Timber Guild though the company I represent is not.
We are about to start work on a huge historic project that involves 45 000 bf of hewing. We need some help at our shop on Vancouver Island. I was pleased to find this thread of conversation and wondered if you are networked with anyone that might be interested. I'd like to post something but cannot figure out how.
Could you help me out?
Margaret
Macdonald & Lawrence Timber Framing Ltd.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/08/13 10:33 AM

Hi Margaret,

What kind of help do you need?

Regards,

jay
Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/08/13 01:32 PM

There are probably more reasonably experienced hewers in North America now, than there has been in the last 100 years. The Guild's project in Poland trained a bunch of (mostly) college students that worked on the project. The ones that I've met came off the project pretty psyched on hewing. I'd contact the Guild office and/or Handshouse Studios to try to get in touch with some of them.

I'd say that you probably also want to set some hewing standards, because you can get very different finishes from different approaches and axes.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/15/13 12:32 AM

hello everyone tonight

well I am working my way through things here, quite an experience for sure, but i guess that is life isn't it?

As I reminised over the last few weeks about times gone by, one of the many great things that comes to my mind was coming home from school each day and being met at the door by my mother who was always there in the kitchen ironing and listening to the battery operated radio--I thoroughly wish that more children in today's world, could have the same opportunity.

That could have been said for alot of things though like the sound of the grain binder as it cut and bound the sheaves of grain, the sound of the corn cutter cutting the sheaves of corn, but talking about this in particular, as a child too young then to join the threshing or silo fillng teams, I would stand by the tractor that was driving the machine by means of a 100 foot endless belt, and listen to the motor moan and groan as it responded to the governor- straining to try and keep the machine's speed constant--this was important because if the speed fell too far there was the danger of plugging the delivery pipes running up the side of the wooden silo--you will notice I said wooden silo, no concrete slabs then, just various types of wooden ones around--as a child I was mesmerized by the sounds and commotion around me

I remember quite well one day as the men were unhooking the horses for noon that one tug became entangled spooking the team, and they bolted in circles completely destroying the wagon in front of our eyes, luckily no one was hurt

I remember another time when we were threshing and working late one night, and the farmer rounded up his milk cows after dusk, as they approached the barn they spooked and they never found them till the next day in the bush

any way i got to go--nice to be back

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/16/13 12:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

I noticed above --Margaret at Macdonald and Lawrence Timberframing LTD has got quite a project on the go--64000 bd ft of timber to hew, and just to put that in perspective for those that can not comprehend quantities well here is my take--

Through a full season at UCV the waterpowered saw mill there running 7 days a week from may till oct would cut out 20000 bd ft of lumber, so that number above is equal to 3 seasons of logs, that is quite a pile for sure, and I know because I purchased them for quite a few years

There is going to be a few blistered and calloused hands for sure!!--

that brings me to remember my hewing team, their hands would be a disaster, blisters, and bandages wrapped around to try and give them some relief--the pine pitch--it was bad once it became coated on a handle, actually tear the skin that covered the water blisters--I am just saying it as I have experienced it myself when I spent many days hewing in the heat early in my career--I would smile when a new recruit came on board--thought he was a pretty good man, but the broadazxe brought him down a notch or two

I also remember Earl Calquhoun --gone now-- but quite an old guy he came on board when he was about 60--could really tell stories and entertain--when he was young, I suppose in his mid 20's, he enlistred to go out west on the harvest excursion-he ended up in the red river valley--wheat country--

Well wheat out there did not grow short like wheat here in Ontario probably twice as high, well let me tell you he learned to wear leather gloves, he thought he was quite a man until they threw him in a 60 acre field, a team of horses and one wagon, when it rained the clay there would gather on the wheels and literally stop any forward motion, and your feet would weigh 50 lbs each--well earl was a good hewer but let me tell you one thing you didn't touch his gloves--

Earl was quite a rugged individual andhe would be hewing in one location and I would be in another not far away--well where did all the young girls go--right over to earl to take his picture, used to burn me up!!!

Morley Warner was another lad he drove the horses when we ran the tread mill to produce horse power, it would just about drive him crazy everyone would want to pet the horses--he would mutter--"wish I was a horse"

well got to go

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/16/13 02:00 AM

well hello everyone tonight

Been a while but still busy with issues, slowing down somewhat now---

been a lot of chat going on, looks like everyone is busy with one project or another--all really challenging--wish everyone the best!!

I had a lad stop in with his broadaxe to get a handle installed, I really enjoyed helping him out, he also wondered if I could help him out with the maker's stamp , the name on the axe is RAND, for the life of me I can not come up with any information, is there anyone out there that can help

Thanks in advance

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/14/13 01:54 AM

hello everyone tonight

I was just wondering if anyone had any information concerning the "RAND" maker's stamp on the broadaxe that I rehandled, the owner is really interested in its history--I can't seem to find any info on the web to help him out

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/14/13 05:49 PM

I have never heard of that maker. I didn't find anything online, but I did find that there is a Broad Axe, Pennsylvania. I have never had much luck finding info on the old tool makers. I have a Chapman broad axe that I use for all of my hewing.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/18/13 02:07 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Dave for your try--appreciate it--

One thing that I seem to remember, is that there was a hardware company named McNally-Rand at one time, does anyone have information on this Company?

NH
Posted By: sakry1

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/18/13 05:54 PM

I need this info too, please tell me if you find something, thanks!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/20/13 12:38 AM

hello everyone tonight

I was just wondering if The "Rand" trademark on the Broad axe might be of English origin realizing as I do our connection with Britain's hardware manufacturer's during those early years

Maybe someone could comment on this hypothesis

I am not one to give up easily--surely there is information out there-------

Thanks

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/21/13 01:48 AM

hello everyone tonight

One other scenario I am tossing around is that maybe "rand" might be an abbreviation of a longer trademark

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/21/13 02:55 PM

It's also someone's name. Possibly a small maker who just stamped his name on his tools when he made them. It's very hard to say with just one example though
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/22/13 01:24 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks DL--I needed that input because that is my real feelings also, it no doubt is a person's name, or a company trademark, just trying to cover all possible bases

it is a nicely done Broad axe with well executed lines, and good tool steel inset lines--not made by a amateur manufacturer for sure

Well I am going to motor on with my research--might get lucky
it is hard to believe that no records exists

It doesn't appear to me that the axe is one of a kind--too well manufactured--it carries the later head style, being placed in the centre of the blade as later improved patents.

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/01/13 12:26 AM

hello everyone tonight

well opened up my tool box today to check everything out and found that rust devil at work, especially on the chisels and axes, so spent some quality time cleaning them up, and I must say reminiscing about times gone by-----------it seems like yesterday that my father decided that it was time for me to try my hand at using one of his smaller broadaxes, and I must say that it felt pretty comfortable in my hand----being a "modern teenager" I was wondering where in the devil I would ever use what he was trying to teach me------about 25 years later I found out that knowledge stored away can be easily retrieved, and came in quite handy, something like learning the keyboard on the old typewriter, when computers came along that past training was put to good use, others marveled how this old woodworker could master using the keyboard on the new computer they placed in my office--I remember the look on their faces--you know I went to school in a one room country school, all 8 grades in one room--no fancy desks, recreation room, no computers, no indoor toilets, just wooden rooms outside, one for girls and one for boys, the boy's was really decorated up with fancy sayings from years gone bye, quite interesting to a young lad like me, but you know I finished grade 8 at 10 years old, finished highschool's grade 12 at 14 and headed out into the big world to find my fortune, well found a wife first that set the tone for the next 54 years--it has been great, wouldn't change a thing--well got the last chisel done putting them away for a while--till the next cleaning----------------------------I am going to have a one day training class for my grandsons, I wonder if they will wonder why they are being shown something they will never use---time will tell

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/04/13 01:29 AM

hello everyone tonight

well mother nature in these parts is readying herself to give us a wakeup call--few flakes today---my dad would be getting the sleighs out of storage, just in case they would be needed in a hurry, in doing so he would draw them out the lane and back just to remove the rust, and smooth up the metal shoes before the sleigh season starts.

Of course removing the sleighs meant moving all the harvesting machinery which always manage to make their way to the front line.

our sleighs had cross chains between the front and back sets, for those that have never seen a set of sleighs used in the bush, what I am referring to is the linkage from the front set of the sleigh that actually pulls the back set along, and being crossed as the sleigh turns (say to the right) it in fact will turn the front of the rear sleigh to the left so it tracks better--very similar to the modern all wheel turning on some types of feed handling equipment

some sleighs used a short straight tongue between the front and back sleighs, which had some advantages like if you wanted to back up--sleighs or horses by the way did not like reverse gear!!


The seasons as they rolled along seemed exciting to a youngster like me, couldn't wait to ready the axes, and crosscut saw, and head to the bush--but wait school work came first--#1--those dreaded --3--R's, well had to settle for weekends--

well have to go for now

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/04/13 10:41 PM

Winter hit today here too. Here it means the end of the rush to do all the little things you wanted to before the snow hit the ground. Growing up it meant that this weekend we would be chasing the cattle home from the pasture 6 1/2 miles north. We always had to wait till the snow landed or they wouldn't want to go.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/05/13 02:44 AM

hi Leslie

yes--I know what you mean--we didn't have the long cattle drives but we did have cattle out on pasture--they acted the same way, a little cold rain or snow sure meant a mind change in their heads--the warm stable was their reward, but it was not shared by the drivers that would be cold wet and tired at the end of the day!

My father and his dad and generations before him were tied somewhat to the land but shared a similar trait and it was a strong liking for timber construction which usually consumed the time from fall to spring, an exciting time--if such a thing existed then--

one thing that has been revealed in these 100 or so pages is that many others also shared that liking--proud of their ancestoral lines--ours being German--coming over in the 1700's to escape persecution, but trailing behind them came their family who practised the old ways, built the old ways, but adapt they did, spoke a new language, ran their fingers through a different type of soil, worked with different wood species, adapted to a decidedly different climate,--even ran across different strange looking tools and axes, which seemed to handle nicely, watched other close neighbours use them to build and construct unusual looking houses and barns--even churches with drivesheds, a lot of buildings were needed--

One thing that did happen was the interrelationship of cultures, and ideas which gradually emerged like broadaxe styles, timberframe building styles, like the 3 bay English barn--it just seemed that win they should--like the saying "the strong and best will survive"

sorry for rambling on

hope you enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/07/13 02:59 AM

hello everyone tonight

you know as time rolls along, and I reflect on things, I always felt bad that I could not have had the opportunity to construct a swing beam barn at UCV, to preserve for the next 100 years or so that wonderful timberframe creation from those golden years, in my area only 2 examples remained until recently now only 1 still stands

One thing I did was to video tape both barns and from these tapes both buildings could be closely reproduced, if someone feels inclined to do just that--it would be a worthwhile undertaking for sure

sorry again for rambling

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/07/13 04:02 AM

This talk of cattle drives brought me some fond memories as well, though the cattle driving I experienced was a bit different. In The mountains of Switzerland, they herd the cattle up on top of the mountains each summer to graze and make cheese from their milk. Each day, we would have to go out onto the mountains and find the cows and herd them back in the evening to be milked. You learn quickly why Swiss cows wear bells, it is hard some times to find where they have wandered to day, especially if a heavy fog (which is a cloud for those down in the valley) has settled in -and might stay for many days.

Your talk of the new experiences and a new land brings emotions to me as well, as does the talk of heritage. Few people are more connected to their heritage than us, and we still don't consider this to be our home. Some people came to this land of new experiences and new adventures by choice -seeking a new life, a new world, a new adventure. Some were not so fortunate, they came because they had no choice. My own people were exiled from their homeland.

Perhaps the 3 bay English barn should have won, or maybe it should not. I will never love any framing more than that of the homeland. But this I can say, maybe it was best adapted to the situation faced by these new settlers.

I have considered the videotaping like you said. When I was in Switzerland last, I took the opportunity to take some 2 to 3000 photographs, mostly of buildings, for just this purpose. Today, largely as a fruit of these labors, I am designing as faithful a reproduction of a 17th century structure as I can.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/08/13 12:45 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi DL thanks for coming on line with some of your past memories, I really enjoy them-- everyone's past is a little different for sure but treasured immensely by those that have experienced them.

My hat is off to you for taking the time to try and preserve your heritage--I am interested somewhat in when and why your peoples were exiled, I always thought that the Swiss people in general retained their country and traditions throughout the ages, unscathed by the turbulence close around them

There are quite a few Swiss families that have moved to Canada-- and have become a great part of our society--they are great farmers, one thing that they like here is the opportunity to acquire quite easily large tracts of farming land, not possible in their homeland they tell me


Well have to go

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/08/13 04:34 PM

My family left late, 1886, to avoid service in the Swiss military due to religious beliefs (changes to the constitution in the 1870s removed any exemption to military service) but most of our people left a century or two earlier, fleeing first the the Jura, France, and Germany and finally to America. We are Anabatist -Mennonites, Amish, etc. We were persecuted because Switzerland had fought religious wars to determine whether they would be Reformed or Catholic, and we were neither, choosing instead to cling to the old ways. So they killed us at first, then imprisoned us,. then exiled us. Some were sold to Venice as galley slaves (the executions of earlier were a better fate than this)
The city of Bern was particularly bad, and most of our people were in Bernese territory. They wanted to control everything, including the church. Our churches are all but nonexistent in the Canton today, because we all left. Switzerland has escaped the turbulence of the modern world, but before that experienced quite a bit of its own.

I'm surprised to find out how few people know of our history -most people have no idea that we peaceful, gentle folk have such a history of death and suffering -a history we pass on and try to honor every day. Official tolerance was never granted to the Anabaptists, though today there is no penalty or suffering as the Canton enjoys freedom in this regard. Even so in the 1880's it was still a big enough problem that my family fled. But we still maintain contact and travel back. We are still Swiss, America is just where we have to live.

And that is nothing against America or its people, just the fact that we came here against our will
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/08/13 06:52 PM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks DL--

our history books tell us nothing about these happenings in Switzerland, just that it is a quiet small country with flowered hills, and a quiet history that goes way back

it seems too bad that differences in religion seem to ferment such violence it seems to go on and on from century to century

our people also fled the Rhineland around 1700 due to religious differences in the controlling kings over this area for many 100's of years--

Canada seems to have became a safe haven for persecuted groups since the 1500's and is still going on.

best of luck

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/08/13 07:33 PM

Well it didn't help matters that Bern just kind of ignored the topic until very recently. They didn't even teach to their own people, only now are the people starting to gain interest in the Anabaptist history. Used to be flocks of Amish and Mennonites would show to see these important places that no one else really cared about or knew much about, today there are a lot more Swiss tourists going to see these places, and you can actually find out information about them right there. This mostly since 2007 when the government formally acknowledged what had happened and extended their hand back to us in friendship. Though understand, there is no sentiment to give back what was taken away from our ancestors -on either side. They don't want to give it to us, and we don't want any handouts.

One of the great things to me is how our people always loved the homeland, and never rejected it for what happened. Even today, there seems a possibility some of us might go back.

But returning to your thread's topic of old ways,
I loved my experiences in the mountains, here a lot of old methods are practiced because often there is no good alternative. Heavy machinery is useless on a mountainside which might have a 50 degree slope. So up here hay is still often cut by hand, and where possible some may use small walk behind sickle-bar type mowers. The hay is still carried and stored up loose -no way to bale it into tight bundles. Up high, it is tied up into nets and carried on the back, which is very hard on the bones.
Some houses even still use wood fired stoves for cooking, and in many cases even in the valleys horses were used for farming very recently. Our family farm near Kirchenthurnen was farmed with horses into the 60's. Some houses into the 70's and 80's still had the open 'Rauchkuche' a high ceiling kitchen with the smoke from the cooking fires vented into the upper reaches. Often the farmers were more interested in improving the practical and economic aspects of the farm than improving and adding 'conveniences'. Many still do without television and the internet, a lot of people never had a telephone until the invention of the cell phone.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/09/13 02:43 AM

hello everyone tonight

well DL it is nice to hear your reminiscences of times gone by, and things that happened, didn't happen and what should have happened.

Good luck with your pursuits, your homeland is lucky for your interest and dedication in regards to preserving the old ways

I will be following your threads with interest

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/13 03:07 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well I am a little under the weather right now, may be scarce here on my favorite place for a while

Hope everyone is heading for a very merry Christmas, good health-(which is a wonderful thing) and a prosperous new year

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/13 02:27 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well back again--

been on DL's chat site here on the forum, been having a real good chat back and forth, I recommend that you all should visit it, for a real journey into the past-In my opinion DL is very knowledgeable in Swiss and German building techniques

it was interesting that there seemed to be a consensus that those poor old farmers, no matter where they live or what country they live in, seem to be just a little bit smarter than many may think

One must remember that farmers didn't just work the land then but had to be good at many other things and one was to learn from their parents the old ways--and as the generations rolled along always new ideas were adapted IF the ideas were of value

Some of these ideas came from other cultures, and which ever culture was the predominating one, those ideas and techniques also seemed to dominate

Take saw mills many times were operated in the off seasons by local farmers.

These mills with reciprocating vertical blades referred to as "Mulley" mills slowly succummed to circular blades, but only when a reliable motive power was developed--the building housing these crude but efficient machines, were constructed with the hewn timbers from local farm lots

Just alittle pitch here for those hardy people that developed the lands all over the planet

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/13 01:47 AM

Hello everyone tonight

To continue with my line of thought--

I realize that things keep changing and educating and teaching each generation of aspiring tradespeople also changes, I was fortunate to be able to have had hands on teaching from my father, this format is slowly ending for many reasons.

Through the years I have run across many very wonderful people from many areas of the globe, here in Ontario the Mennonites are struggling to hang on to their Old ways

Talking to some of the older folk visiting the UCV site, I felt a yearning in their hearts as they watched me hewing timber, and once in a while as I rested and struck up a conversation, they wholeheartedly admitted they were losing the old ways and methods and really didn't know how to stop it

The admissions usually covered hewing and timberframing, but I am sure there were many other areas also threatened

I sort of got the feeling that they felt that they should be doing more but were at a loss to know what to do

One thing that they did say was that it was wonderful that The UCV site was trying to retain the old methods, and during the course of the conversation it was hard for me to not let the old folk take the axe and go to work

In my opinion timberframing has changed so much as it tries to satisfy the general public that the framers need the modern computers to calculate and lay out their cuts

I really don't think that Guild conferences/workshops should stray too far away from the guiding light--let your senses know what I mean

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/13 02:01 AM

Thanks Richard for the story

I always perk up when someone mentions the Mennonites. Truth is, that is true we are losing our old ways. In our community the Amish stopped timber framing some time ago, and this is happening in many other places as well.

We have the debate all the time, what is worth holding on to, what is not. Not everyone will agree all the time. We make the problem too often of thinking these things are important to our faith when they are not, then the young people become disillusioned and want to throw them off.

One of my goals in life is to preserve my families traditions for the coming generations, and folks like you are a major inspiration for me.

I can say from experience, you can learn a great deal without formal training. I will call it, learning by osmosis. When you are in contact with these things, around them, you see them, then you just understand them even if know one ever sat down and explained it to you. And I think those of us who were raised that way are better at that, I think too many people today think they need an education to learn anything, and so they don't know how to really learn -to observe, to think, to study.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/04/14 03:00 AM

hello everyone (this very cold) tonight indeed

I have a question that I need help with

--Could you replace the 2 centre cross girts in a 3 bay barn which are 24 feet long, and 10 by 12 inches in cross section (this beam was normally supported by a vertical post at the centre point)

I am suggesting replacing this setup with 2 Swing Beams to eradicate the centre support posts

The Swing Beams would be 9 inches square at both ends tapered to 9 by 16 inches at the centre points
--this beam then would be capped immediately above the tapered beam with a 9 inch square beam for its total length of 24 feet

A short prick post 9 inches square, would join the two at the centre point of the tapered beam forming a sort of a truss arrangement

This would leave the whole lower area free of any posts

Of course there would be braces at both ends as normally done

I know of two barns each with one bent containing a swing beam of this type , and the other bent containing a normal arrangement which would consist of a regular cross girt and vertical central post beneath it

just wondering if any of you could comment on my suggestion

thanks in advance

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/14 02:52 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well I have decided to continue the "Hewing Set up" thread here where I usually discuss these things and especially those that deal with Hewing in general

Previous the discussion centred around the site and supporting beams that is required to hew timbers that might weigh upwards of 2000 lbs or more depending on the specie of tree

I suggest preparing for timbers in excess of 45 feet in length as well as shorter ones, like those used in the vertical wall framing, but that is the way I see it, from my experience

The lower sill plates even in a modest sized barn will be quite large and would be upwards of 40 inches in diameter on the butt ends, and would be the first ones prepared so that the framers could proceed with their work as others are being prepared

After the first sill timber is brought to the hewing site, it is rolled onto the previously prepared hewing bed, so that the natural curve is in the direction of the side being hewn first, and the whole log positioned so that it is close to the ends of the hewing bed supports--(for those that missed my explanation of the construction of the hewing bed, I use 6 by 6 timbers partially imbedded in firmly compacted soil).

So now we have the timber positioned it needs to be firmly held in place and for this I use 36 inch timber dogs which are heated and turned at their ends and pointed nicely, for their manufacture I suggest 3\4" rod stock either round or square will suffice quite nicely

Now I am suggesting our first timber is a 38 foot Hemlock, and to secure it well at least 3 timber dogs are needed. hammered well in on the opposite side to the one being hewn

so if any questions are in order to clarify any of these steps please feel free to do so now before we move on

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/14 04:24 PM

Richard,

I'm trying to wrap my mind around 40" butt end logs for sills.

What kind of wood, with what kind of taper?

I think you'd faint if you saw some of the hewn timbers on some log buildings in the Alps. Think 18 inch faces, 6 inches wide. And they got 2 out of 1 log (cut a big one and sawed in in half)
Massive logs yielded those. But I saw no shortage of 4 foot spruce (which has very little taper over a tremendous length.
Add to that, the early builders obsessed about having uninterrupted timbers, even though it actually isnt important at all in this case. (tightly fitted log walls erected on a solid masonry socket)

I like your log dogs. Simple, but effective.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/25/14 02:44 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi DL thanks for coming on board

Well I will try and respond the best I can

I am relating to the trees that grow here, I am sure that there are areas where the growth habits vary for many different reasons, even here the original white pine grew in denser growth areas and to survive had to stretch skyward quickly to get their crowns above the surrounding cover, these were lovely tall trees, and had very little taper from bottom to the top

Second and third growth pine did not have to compete in the same manner so the mature trees ended up shorter and with more lower limbs

This situation created a problem because to reconstruct period buildings it was extremely hard to obtain similar logs to work with

For a three bay English barn that I reconstructed, the lower sills were 12" square 36 feet long and were hemlock-These trees when we found them near the Quebec border with Ontario, were for our area really majestic trees--before harvesting I recorded their bottom diameters at 43" near ground level, and being unable to exactly calculate their girth at 36 feet took a gamble that the measurement at that point would square 12"--it ended up that they held their size well, and after hewing had very little waney edge to deal with

The same woodlot yielded the remainder of the logs that we needed for the reconstruction, and we also harvested a few extra just in case of a need for an extra timber--as it turned out we in fact needed a replacement timber for one of the 10" by !2" by 30 foot cross ties, due to a framing error that created a timber too short by 3"

I honestly have to admit here that I hated to cut down these majestic trees, but no doubt they were nearing their life span, and were many feet higher than their surrounding mates, making them subject to high wind damage

As one last note--what a wonderful display the hewing of these logs presented to the thousands of people that passed by, over the year and half the hewing took place--as the timbers were finished they made their way to the framing area close by so the whole story could be followed along in natural order.

As I mentioned before many Mennonite families passed by and quietly took in the work in progress, talking and explaining to their children what was happening--they seemed to really understand the spectacle unfolding--other families seemed to enjoy the hustle and bustle but from a different perspective I suspect

For ourselves the workers--being able to be part of a living history exhibit was not measureable in any way, but is an experience that will always be with me.

Splitting trees as you mention was not very often done except in certain cases, and these that I noted was floor planks in barns, split from squared timber, and sidewall timbers in log houses from very large cedar logs

pit sawing to obtain planks and boards was also practiced prior to the introduction of vertical blade saw mills, and by the very early settlers

Well enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/25/14 10:19 PM

One thing that I have to ask about,

We talk about "first Growth" and "regrowth" timber, and the difference between them. We talk about these things in terms of taper, characteristics of the wood, etc.

I have to ask, are we here speaking in terms of clear-cut or at least heavily forested timber, with the second and regrowth coming as new stands in a wiped-out or nearly wiped-out forest? As in, a significant portion of the canopy has been destroyed by extensive harvesting, and the second growth comes up in the midst of short, scrubby growth, or even nothing?

How does this compare to the state of a forest that is carefully managed, where trees are selectively harvested and a stand of tall, stout growth -a mature forest- has existed, but trees have still been harvested continually for centuries, just in a small scale?

The spruce timbers discussed earlier come from such a situation -forests that have been harvested for a thousands years (or 3) but have never been 'cut down' or excessively reduced. I wonder, in this situation, how the wood compares to a situation where man had never touched that forest at all?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/14 02:44 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi DL and others

OK--let us put things in perspective--settlement took place here (upper Canada) in 1784--so the arriving settlers were looking at trees that had never been harvested by man only mother nature, so were referred to as virgin or first growth, and Great Britain as the mother land kept access to the best trees even though your name maybe was on the parcel or section of property-I suppose something like mineral rights in today's world.

A good portion of each property was clear cut for farming, but a good sized woodlot was retained for what ever need arose, so in due course over the next 200 years the bush lots were never clear cut but in most cases managed by each individual generation to ensure a continuous supply of firewood, logs and fencing materials

So lets take white pine for instance, the original trees were probably 100 to 125 years old at the time of settlement, with young trees beginning to grow at various stages--with the removal of the mature trees the young trees reached a good age or maturity in 60 to 70 years when harvesting probably would selectively begin or mid 1800's, these were referred to as second growth, the early nineteen hundred's harvest third growth and so on

I am not an expert on the subject but in this area there was so much forest to deal with that any kind of management other that from individual owners never took place--but let us not put down the olden people, they knew that a good forest was absolutely needed for survival, and in most cases seed trees were left all over the place, and the dead or dying trees were removed leaving the young to grow, and every precaution in felling trees took into account damage to young trees in the area

I remember quite well as a very young lad helping my father harvest spruce trees to build the new barn he was working on, in this particular area we left a lovely spruce tree loaded with seed, and he commented to me never cut this tree it will re-establish new growth

Well dad died and my life moved on and it didn't include burning wood or harvesting logs for a number of years in this area but I remembered his words

As time passed I purposely found my way to the spot where the tree grew, my curiosity mounted--what do you think I found

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/14 10:30 PM

Thanks Richard,

That was the biggest thing to me, the size of the tree and their age. The picture I get is that the mean age of the older trees is maybe 70 years, after which they are all harvested. This excluding the good stock tree here and there that is left to replenish the forest, etc.

Left to go forward and age further, the properties of a tree do change. The wood compresses and condenses both with age and as a result of the stress of the tree blowing in the wind, and supporting its own weight. The difference in the wood characteristics between a 70 year old stem and a 120 year one are significant.

I always wondered what this difference was between "Virgin" and second growth. TO me, all I can reason is that it is a matter of age.

This upholds my suspicion that, in the mountains of Bern, the trees we can find of suitable age -some maybe 150 years or even more- would have that property.

For building log structures, they want those big, old trees. The wood is better, the material stronger and more stable, and more durable. Also, the greater width of the timber gives the structure a more impressive and stronger look.

In the United States, I see a turnaround in forest management of 70 years like you say.
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/14 11:46 PM

David, with most softwoods I know the tighter the growth rings the stronger the wood. In my tree planting background I have planted similar species of spruce in Saskatchewan, British Columbia and England. Trees in the UK, and BC mature at 50+ years depending on location. Trees in Saskatchewan mature at 80+ years. That means two trees of similar diamater taken out of forests in SK and BC would be different ages.

In theory, a 80 year old tree would have more growth rings and therefore more strength. Durability, I would imagine is more genetics than anything, and stability is based on a mix of genetics and growing conditions. An example of genetics would be white spruce vs black spruce. Growing conditions could be anything from density of the forest, rainfall, elevation, sunshine, and other things like growing on the side of a hill.

Now, in much of Europe you have managed forests. Managing a forest in Europe is much more intense than it is here in Canada. Here we plant the tree a year or two after the forest is cut down. It is surveyed at least once in the first seven years after planting to make sure that the obligation to replace the trees cut on crown land is met. Sometimes if the natural competition is too great the natural regrowth will be cut back around the trees to give the seedlings a fighting chance. Then assuming there are no major epidemics like fire or beetles it is left till maturity.

In England, trees are planted tighter than they expect them to grow when they reach maturity. They are planted in rows thinned and trimmed till they reach maturity. By doing this there are fewer branches and fewer knots in the lumber.

In the mountains of Bern I suspect it is a carefully managed forest. Thinned, trimmed, and selectively cut. Interest taken with quality of wood in mind not quantity. Then there is the milling, that is a whole new topic.

N.H. Seedlings for todays monocultures are often harvested locally taking a helicopter with a basket and raking the acorns off a local tree to produce the seedlings from. This is done with the theory that the local tree already has the genetics required to thrive in the environment.
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/14 12:47 AM

Les,

Thanks for the info

The forest I saw were not carefully managed in the same way as you would see in England or Germany or France. This is a sparsely populated region that is heavily forested with true forest, not regrowth or planted forest.

Here the tactic has never been to cut out a parcel of land and then regrow it. Clear-cutting or even extensive thinning never happen. So trees that grow and regrow are coming up in the midst of a mature forest canopy -they grow up straight, reaching a height in a short order of time.

The "Forest Management" takes the form of careful selected harvesting that doesn't damage the canopy. Other than that, forests are surprisingly wild.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/14 01:09 AM

hello everyone tonight

Both nice answers indeed--thanks for the special in depth look at growth, versus age, environmental factors, very educational I must say, and I really enjoyed it all--I hope that everyone else did too-----

To continue with my story above and my visitation to the seed tree site, I was astounded to find the lovely motherly type of Spruce tree snapped off close to the ground level, and due to decay was of absolutely no value--I surmised that it had reached its life span and mother nature said it was time to recycle

it had though managed to spread some of its genetics in the local area, not as much as I had envisioned though

Here is a question--how long will the seed lay around and still be able to reproduce, will it need something to give it a shunt--I was always told that a forest fire will help certain species come to life, one specie that seems to come on in burned out areas is the poplar tree around here

NH
Posted By: Gumphri

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/14 01:56 AM

Populus tremuloides or quaking aspen is the natural weed of the boreal forest. I spent a few weeks once doing regeneration surveys for the forest industry in Alberta. These were aspen forests that had been cut down and just allowed to regrow naturally. Of thousands of plots only one I ever did there failed. For a number of years an animal(moose?) had been biting off the shoots of the branches at just under the height required by the forestry department.

As for the length of time a seed can rest before it grows into a tree I don't know. I can say that pine acorns will open after the heat of a fire releasing the seeds. I remember walking into burnt area a number of years ago where a fire had traveled quickly through. I don't think there was anywhere where you could step in the entire forest without stepping on a little pine.

I do know that a properly stored batch of spruce seeds can last through a foresters career. In the wild here natural spruce is a sign of an older forest. After a fire pine or aspen will be the first species to come back depending on what was previously there. From what I've seen the second stage in an aspen forest is a slow encroachment of spruce or tamarack from an existing source after the aspen is well on its way to maturity if the land is suitable.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/14 02:46 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Leslie--sure appreciate your reply--what I have noticed in regenerated areas now seems to follow a rule laid down by mother nature, and probably runs true for a lot of species no doubt

We sort of wandered off the topic a bit, (hewing layout)--sorry--

anyway to continue the layout topic, as I see it, the 38 foot timber has been positioned and pinned with the timber dogs at this point.

The next procedure is to move to the smaller end, and do a quick check with my 3 foot folding wooden rule (my rule of choice) for many different reasons--at this point I am only ensuring that the tree is large enough on the small end, to square the 12" squared timber, or maybe to envision to what extent the corners may be waney .

I carefully place my pointed scratch all at the spot that will become the top corner of the hewn timber, and on the hewing side

leaving the scratch all imbedded in the end, I next take my wooden level, (again my choice), and laying it against the scatch all I strike a plumb line on the end using a carpenter's pencil.

The next procedure is to remove the scatch all, and laying a straight edge along the plumb line ( I use my wooden rule) I scratch the plumbline well into the end of the log. I then pencil the line well so that it will be very visible should it rain and remove the marking

Off from this line I then mark off using a square the outline of the hewn timber, allowing 1/2" oversize for shrinkage, or possible under hewing at some point

I then tack on a 1" by 2" straight edged slat along the plumbline and let it protrude above the log 12" or so, the reason for this will be explained later

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/14/14 04:53 AM

Richard,

here's one for you, a sleigh maker

Thought you might enjoy seeing the pictures, at least.

http://www.beatenbergbilder.ch/home/reportage_14_schlitten.htm
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/18/14 11:31 PM

hello everyone tonight

Hi DL

Thanks for coming on with those wonderful pictures on sleigh making, it takes it to a real high level, and reminds me of the time when we had to restored the stage coach at UCV--it took a combination of 4 different trades people to complete it, the cabinet maker, the black smith, the wheel wright, and finally the historic painter.

people seem to forget that sleighs of all types were very necessary in the days gone by, to move farm and other goods around when the snow was deep, sometimes too deep for the horses even, reminds me of this very long cold winter here.


Thanks again I really enjoyed them, and I hope others did too

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/20/14 01:24 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hey DL--I forgot to mention that the pictures that show a fine example of a small hand sleigh it appears that has just been put together and is in the background sure makes my day, everyone has favorites--small hand sleighs are one of mine--

it appears to have a very high arch ( the distance from the ground to the top of the sleigh's bed), making it for sure to posses characteristics of a particular area, and their sleigh making customs

once again thanks for sharing--really appreciate it

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/01/14 01:56 AM

hello everyone tonight

well here I am again for a time, mother nature threw me a little curve, but it glanced

The guild is sure a leader in the timber framing world, I am trying to catch up on events, I hope that it continues its steady course forward

I am getting ready to show a young lad the basics of hewing as I see it, really excited about that

It is funny what you might find in walls, I just happened to explore the space between two brick walls and felt something there it was a wooden ruler which no doubt fell there many years ago when the construction was going on

That brings to mind a few unusual things that happened to me, finding a large penny in a wall dated 1899 the year my father was born

A while ago remodelling my home I found in the bathroom wall a chisel left there by the original contractor, I knew him and one day took the chisel back and gave it to him, he was astounded

It would be nice to hear some unusual happenings in your lifetime

Richard
The Northern Hewer
Posted By: bmike

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/01/14 05:41 PM

Hi Richard, welcome back!

Lots of unusual things in my life, for sure.
But my favorite?

When I was part of a studio exchange program in NYC (I came to timber framing by way of sculpture and architecture) I had to take the GRE tests to get into grad school. I had stayed up way too late the night before, and actually, for the first time in my life had too much to drink...

So, I awoke with a headache really early on a Saturday, hailed a cab in the pouring rain, and gave the cabbie the address of the high school I needed to get to.

He got me close, but couldn't really find the school. I told him I would walk and find it. I paid him, and jumped out of the cab.

A couple of blocks later after walking around I reached down to my front pocket to see if I had my wallet...

And it wasn't there. I freaked out - you needed 2 forms of ID to sit for the test. I searched my bag, my pockets, my jacket. PO'd I ended up smashing my umbrella in anger.

Just then a cab pulls up, I run over to it, open the door and start blabbing... 'can you get on the radio and see if...' when I see my wallet sitting on the seat.

The cabbie told me he circled back around because he didn't want to leave me off in the neighborhood where I was.

I eventually found the school and filled in bubbles with a #2 pencil for several hours. I was soaking wet and had a hang over.

The results were sent to my NY apartment and to the school I was applying to. I never did see the results as my mail forwarding got messed up when I moved back to the midwest.

But, I did get into grad school, even got a partial scholarship. So I never really wanted to know how I did on that test... I just accept that it was 'good enough'.
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/01/14 06:13 PM

Good stories! Reminds me of something I haven't thought of in years.

When I was a young trim carpenter I was fitting the top tread on a closed in staircase when I bumped my chisel off the stringer where I had foolishly set it down. It dropped into the staircase and I heard it bump and slide it's way all the way to the bottom.

I suppose I could have pulled up the first tread and retrieved it but it was late and I was tired so I left it as a present to the next guy working on those stairs.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/02/14 01:39 AM

hello everyone

great stories especially the one about the wallet, it brings to mind and experience my friend had in Acapulco mexico.

Well we had hired a taxi to go down town and my friend paid on the return trip, well when we entered in the hotel he discovered that he had left his wallet in the taxi-you can imagine how he reacted all his money, identification, passport, gold master card etc--didn't know what to do most all taxis look alike, but the one we had was different, so we hired another taxi and went back to the spot where we had hired the taxi, and lo and behold there it was just returning and parked, he got out and started walking --my friend went over to him and said , "I believe you have my wallet"--The cabbie reached in his pocket and handed him his wallet without a question--You know he could have just disappeared up a side street and been well fixed for some time--this is something that happened that sure was a long shot and all we could think of doing, but paid off big time.

We now watch very carefully our wallets

Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/02/14 01:54 AM

hello everyone tonight

I strongly believe in listening to that little voice in your head that tries to steer one in the right direction, but sometimes I believe destiny will not change

A few years ago I was operating the water powered Mulley mill at UCV and a young friend of mine, a real down to earth fellow came by to visit and talk about times gone by --his cup of tea so to speak- well he eventually said he had to go and left, he seemed in a hurry--left in the middle of a real great chat-well later that day, in fact only a short time later he was killed instantly on a dangerous corner on a main highway.

I always said if I could have even kept him a few seconds longer, he would have missed his rendezvous with destiny

It really bothers me to this day

What do you think?

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/04/14 06:45 PM

hello everyone tonight

I have been catching up on various threads and one that caught my attention was the merger of the Guild's various components

I will always be a real supporter of the TTRAG as it now functions as a separate part and deals with historic information, it is one place where I and many others feel real comfortable

I guess I am a little behind the times though and should know that things need change from time to time to be competitive and interesting

I have seen many mergers over the years, and really and truly it makes me shake my head and wonder why it happened, it sometimes makes no sense

NH
Posted By: Gabel

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/06/14 04:53 PM

NH,

As a board member I feel like I can hopefully shed some more light on the goings on with the Guild and its various groups like TTRAG and the Engineering council, the ATP and likely if the merger goes forward, the TFBC.

As we envision this, the TFG will act as the umbrella group for TTRAG, TFEC, the Apprenticeship Program and the TFBC. This will be no change in status for the first three groups who now operate under the TFG's legal and tax status and have their own initiatives, leadership structure, and budgets. The TFBC will likely operate under the same or a similar arrangement, maintaining its own leadership structure, programming and operating budget.

What is exciting to me and may be of interest to you is that we are also trying to give these acteive and vibrant groups more voice at the TFG board level by alloting director seats to each group. This will give TTRAG, TFEC, and the ATP a direct hand in the directing and overseeing of the TFG, which is appropriate since the work they are doing is a significant part of what the TFG on the whole is doing. The business council will likely have the same arrangement. And there will continue to be directors elected by the entire TFG membership the same or very similar to the current process.

So to your specific area of interest - I think that with TTRAG having a voice on the board of directors of the Guild, I would expect them to become even more active and vibrant and hopefully even more involved in the TFG as a whole and its various programs, like the conference and our community building projects. I like that idea because it will create more opportunities for that group to share their knowledge of the craft's history and traditional practice with young framers and others who are interested.

I hope this is helpful - let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

Gabel Holder
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/08/14 02:10 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Gabel I hope the best for everyone, it sounds like everything is under control

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/09/14 01:33 AM

well hello everyone tonight

seasons are changing, there is restless/anxious movement all around--

the corn fields are full of migratory birds moving south--they are the smart ones--

Well today I was back on the back forty trying to gather some special curved wood for a hand sleigh order, when I nearly fell into a hidden dug well--it was covered up by vegetation and old branches

I never knew it was there, but it must have been dug by a former owner, that lived on this property before our family came 5 generations ago, sometime before 1850 I put it--It was common for farmers to dig a well at the furthest end of the cleared land to water their stock without moving them very far, and then for no apparent reason they went into disuse, or forgot about

Just as a matter of interest these wells were sometimes 30 to 40 feet deep, stoned up leaving a central opening about 3 feet in diameter, the stoning up procedure somewhat of a mystery.

The locations were usually divined by someone in the area that could do that thing, and these diviners using many different methods would pinpoint underground streams/watersources and give an estimate of the depth--usually pretty accurate--

I have been down in a few wells to help clean them out and the strangest one that I ran across had 6 feet of 2" oak cribbing at the bottom with holes in the sides that allowed the water to come through from the vein in the ground--the well I was in had so much sediment in it that the cribbing was not in sight--as we cleaned it out the cribbing came in sight and as we continued further the holes to admit the water came into view and spurted like from a tap--never forget that one--

Another well I helped my father clean out it had gone dry and the people were in bad straights, well we cleaned it out to no avail, no water--what my father did was to jab a long bar down as far as he could in the bottom, and inserted a stick of dynamite-he told me to get back and then he discharged it- well in no time the well was full, he said that all that was needed was to shake up the earth--it reminded me of today's fracking for natural gas

well have to go now, but I wonder if anyone has anything to add to hand dug wells in other parts of the world, and maybe that stoning up method, never could quite figure out how that was done without someone getting killed and quickly enough to escape the incoming water-

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/09/14 03:59 PM

Diving, that's a hot point of debate among my people. The old guard all did it, that's how you found water back then. Two methods that were used were, you'd hold a forked stick with one fork in each hand and the other end pointed out. The other way was to hold the ends of a bent wire. You walk around, and the end of the stick or the middle of the wire would fall down. So there you dig.

Today, there is a lot of opposition to it. A lot of our people will have nothing to do with it. They can find no scientific reason why it should work (but it does work) so the conclusion they have come to is that it must be demonic some how.
I told this to some of my friends in the Berner Oberland (where our people come from, and where just about all of our culture comes from as well) and they thought that was nonsense. It's still how they find wells and springs up in the mountains today. It's interesting to note that there is a great deal of witchcraft and superstition in those mountains too, all dating back to before the Romans.
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/09/14 11:23 PM

I've heard that a ring of stone, metal, or even of boards laid up, was placed on the ground and the wall was begun on that. The earth was slowly dug out from under the base, and the wall settled down into the well, and the wall continued from the top. I don't know if this has ever been verified, but it seems workable, provided I'm not the one down the hole. I'm claustrophobic.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/10/14 01:43 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks DL and Dave

These insights into some more of yester years methods and customs needed to find good drinking water are very interesting I am sure to everyone looking in

Dave your method of digging from underneath a form is very logical and was used, this I know from personal experience

When I was about 6 years old my father built a new barn, and of course we needed a water supply--my father being very ingenuative used that very method to go down the first 16 feet, he built 2 circular forms about 8 feet in diameter and 8 feet high and proceeded to remove the material from underneath which of course let the form drop, at the depth of the 2 forms he stopped and proceeded to drill further using a home made outfit , that included a 2" steel sharpened axle from a land roller and lengths of 6" inch steam pipe

He rigged up a method using a pulley attached to one wheel of the tractor-now the tractor was up off the ground so he could brake one wheel making the other one with the pulley only able to turn

He used horse fork rope and one man could methodically tighten and loosen the rope on the pulley, this in turn lifted and let fall the sharpened axle inside the pipe

Every once in a while as needed the weight of the axle was used to pound the pipe further into the ground

Using this method he went down another 40 feet and eventually found water in sufficient quantity for the livestock

I might add that every once in a while a stone was encountered and interfered with the drilling process, and dad would prepare a stick of dynamite lower it beside the rock and blow it to pieces

I might say father was sure ingenious and had a lot of solutions up his sleeve--you might say I got my education out behind the barn--more on this subject next time

You might say what has all this got to do with timber framing well I might say this--it is all a part of expanding ones knowledge of everyday living--keeping your family warm and fed during times of need, knowing how to build was one part of that knowledge, using new ideas was never frowned on but added to the knowledge base to be used as needed

Thanks everyone for dropping by

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/10/14 02:57 PM

Do you see something here that answers your questions Richard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hFcrt0aprw

Fracking?

Don
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/11/14 02:21 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks don for that wonderful documentary film on well digging, I know of no other, and it really sheds a wonderful light on a specific method to show how a well is dug

Really enjoyed it!!!!!!

NH
Posted By: D L Bahler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/13/14 06:19 PM

That's a wonderful video Don, very informative and shows great detail how this method works.

I liked the pump too. You see a lot of springs in the Alps set up with similar wooden contraptions.

Only bad part is, his Bavarian dialect is a bit hard for me. So I wasn't always quite sure what he was talking about.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/25/14 07:48 PM

hello everyone tonight
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/27/14 01:35 AM

hello everyone tonight

Just sitting here reminiscing to myself about times gone by and thought maybe it was time to brush off the old photo album full of those old memories stored in that old technology known as photos, it seems to me that we really have not gained much ground in this realm, now a photo has very little value and we probably will not know where any of the thousands of family gatherings in digital form are, I expect that until reality steps in a couple of generations of remembrances will disappear

The first page in the album contained a photo of my dad and me (I was about 14 years old) standing on the dry bottom of the St Lawrence river right where the Long Sault rapids were located

The river was diverted with a great deal of difficulty to allow the installation of the power house and dam that would eventually hold back and form a 27 mile lake to feed the massive turbines that the 70 foot head of water would power.

Right where we are standing were massive stone blocks, and many wells or round holes drilled into the stone bottom of the river. The engineers say that the swirling water spun stones around that eventually wore round holes before they disappeared

I don't know if this happened in other places, but it did here
The river in about 1 mile fell 30 feet and caused a natural block to river traffic up going upstream

The rising water of lake St Lawrence flooded the front areas of farm land for the length of the lake and unfortunately also towns containing the earliest churches, graveyards and very importantly the earliest buildings that were yet standing--this was in 1956--to 1961, the time it took to complete the seaway, and make it ready for oceangoing vessels to travel unimpeaded right up to the head of the great lakes

of course we were promised cheap power, which never happened, and during the construction many farm families were forcefuloly removed from century farms in the name of progress

well it did produce opportunities for many, my dad for one, who being able to work with old timbers and frames, and understood older technology was soon put in charge of moving many of the log and timber structures that are contained in the historic site of UCV

Examples of all types of building styles were rescued as well as buildings that were part of the battle of Crysler Farm-- the house and the barn containing yet the scars of the battle which raged between the American and British forces

well enough for tonight

more to come
enjoy
NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/28/14 12:17 PM

For you Richard because I know you have done this work.

http://www.folkstreams.net/film,187

You just have to copy that text (Address) and paste it in the address space.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/31/14 01:40 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for the lead to that site, really something, watched a quite a few of the ones that interest me--hope that others followed suit.

Well to continue in the dusty old album, there was another picture of me standing by the house mover, quite a machine indeed, could straddle a good sized 2 storey house, and hook up cables to previously laid I-beams, it slowly raised the building up off the foundation, keeping it perfectly level and as it moved forward continued to keep it level no matter what the framework of the mover encountered , humps, hollows, ditches, slanted surfaces

it was powered by a 500 hp engine which drove two gigantic drive wheels, 9 feet in height at the front, and the rear part was supported by another pair of equal size

The people in the homes rode to their new locations seated at their tables having lunch in many cases, not even spilling the tea cups, or water glasses

The whole unit was built like a giant U shaped fork, and could straddle the homes easily

It looked a little weird a smallish man sitting up in the control area pulling and turning small controls which in turn did tremendous work, it must have seemed very unusual to have that much authority

upon reaching the newly created foundation it gently would back in and lower the house down, the I beams lowering into pockets left in the new foundation walls, which were then withdrawn and moved immediately to another home

it was though limited to only frame homes with light brick veneer walls, heavier stone homes used another method

well got to go

enjoy

Richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/02/14 12:17 AM

hello everyone tonight

to continue:

my father was involved with the moving of the Louck's house, it was a stone walled home with walls 36 inches thick and 2 stories, along with a 3 fireplaces and an attached summer kitchen

The way it was done was as follows: the moving waited until the middle of the winter, and the home was elevated using 50 ton jacks, high enough to enable the placement of multiple units of steel dollies

The steel dollies were placed on mats of planks that were moved along as the house inched forward for the 2 mile trip from its original location on the shore of the st Lawrence to the new site of ucv

The motive power was 3 very large wreckers, actually army equipment, and a HD 21 cat to add some muscle especially to get the move started

Things went well, just a few cracks here and there, which were mended eventually after arrival on site

moving the buildings did not go without problems, the buildings moved along on the old #2 highway that followed the river somewhat, and had some very bad curves and slopes in spots, it was in one of these areas that one of the homes slid sideways and ended up in the old canal, about 30 feet down

there is a good film produced that shows the coffer dam being built and the eventual demolition of it using many tons of tnt in a massive explosion

it took about 3 days for the lake to fill, and even the engineers were nervous because evidently no one seemed to know exactly where the lakes level would end

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/15 03:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well just hunkering down tonight, very cold here in Ontario

Was in the bush today getting out next years wood supply, cut some nice white ash logs also-- will square 10 by 10 at 25 feet, thank the lord for 4 wheel drives, and hydraulic loaders, tried to tell a couple of the young lads how things went 100 years ago in the bush--no chain saws, no hydraulic loaders, just axes, crosscut saws, horse drawn sloop sleighs

they began to ask me questions like how did you load the logs, I told them you used your brawn, and when that didn't work you rolled them up at a loading site, prepared at a location usually in a clearing or just outside the bush line, actually it worked quite well and went fast, the sleigh's bunks, being close to the ground facilitated the loading dramatically, just the high logs needed help--here you again used your brain--large logs on the bottom small top wood on the top--you would be surprised what two men could load with just cant hooks and a couple of 12 foot skidding poles!--could average 4 to 5 cords a day depending on the conditions--the colder the day the harder you worked to keep warm

Father would upon reaching the bush, and the cutting area would immediately strip down to his shirt and then grab the axe start felling trees, chopping in from one side, carefully eyeing the landing site for the tree so it wouldn't be lodged, and then a few blows from the opposite side and down she came, usually right on target. the larger trees say over 12 inches needed the crosscut saw's help on the opposite side from the guiding chopped v on the opposite side, now this crosscut saw cut was always just a little above the guiding "v" say 2 inches, I have fond memories of helping him with the sawing, the rakers on the cross cut saw fetching out long strings of wood meaning things were working pretty good

for those that do not know what rakers are well they were placed between sets of cutter teeth, and these rakers would be about a thin dime above the points of the cutting teeth, and filed straight across on their points, and as they passed along the cut would rollup strings of cut wood

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/15 04:21 PM

When my great-grandfather built this house, all of the wood was taken from on the hill out back by horses in the winter. It was taken next door to the neighbor's sawmill. That was in the late teens. Last year, I bought timber from the neighbor, and dragged it through the same woods with a Timberjack to my mill. I think it would be fun to try a little hand logging, but only a little.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/18/15 11:34 AM

No possibility of logging around here but once that's done plenty of transport still needed. Here I am rolling logs of 6 meter sweet chestnut around back to my squaring-up station, with some help this time. http://vimeo.com/109727652
I load using that old jack, cant-hook and picaroons.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/22/15 03:19 AM

hello everyone tonight

another cold one here, but then that is January here in Ontario

to continue-----

As I was talking and explaining some of the bush/logging stories to the young lads they seemed to become interested in sleighing in general

one line of interest seemed to be what a couple of horses could draw, well I explained that you first would break the hauling trail and let it freeze, then with well shod horses--this really threw them--here I explained that the horses not only needed to have steel horse shoes nailed to the bottoms of their feet, but they needed corks or sharp points attached to the steel shoes so that they would not slip on icy patches--anyway everything being equal after the loads were rounded up the horses anxious to be off would slightly jump forward using their full body-weight to break the sleigh loose and start it to move forward

they knew that they needed to exert their full force to keep the momentum going, the corks on their shoes would rip out pieces of ice, bark , sod, grass under the snow--if you were on top of the load you hung on for dear life as the sleighs lurched over humps, fell into swails, maybe through the crusty ice covered swail holes, at times nearly rolling over, at least feeling that way--I must say it took a lot to roll a sleigh because of its low center of gravity

once out of the bush the land would be smooth and the team would fall into a trot, the steam rolling off them in the cold brisk air

enjoy NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/29/15 03:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

well lets talk about axes and their handles

My dad always liked his double bitted axe, which had a straight handle, this was necessary so you could turn it over to use the opposite side--his take was one side for chopping, and one side for trimming--both sharpened a little differently

he did have a one bitted or single bladed axe used exclusively for splitting firewood, this axe had a thicker blade which was necessary in the splitting action, and stronger along the edge to guard against hard knots and unusual twisting associated with wood splitting. this old axe to look at seemed pretty grim but man would it split wood!!!

the handle in this axe was hand made following a pattern that hung in the shop. it wasn't until I was involved more with wood working that I realized the importance of handles in general and how devastating it was to break one that you had become accustomed to. hanging a new handle needed many decisions such as not only the sweep of the handle but the angle of the cutting edge.

Creating and Installing a broken offset broad axe handle is one of the hardest jobs to do successfully, no matter how hard you try a new handle takes a lot of getting used to

Just the patina on the surface of the new wooden handle will feel strange and irritate your skin

The old handle that you became accustomed to made splitting the chalk line seem easy, slitting the line with the new handle will be aggravating and challenging to say the least
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/29/15 08:07 AM

What wood did you like to use for your broadaxe handles, Richard?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/15 02:51 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don and others:

Well give me a nice curved piece of wild cherry--hard to find--but it is worth the hunt--the wood will after some use produce a wonderful smooth finish and just reek with personality, produced with your sweat, and the polishing action of your grip changing position as you work

you can steam bend a straight piece of cherry, but the true natural bent wood is best

My experience with steam bent wood is that it removes some of its natural composition and will feel differently when you go to use the finished handle--it will just feel and act dead so to speak

another approach is to take the green blank and bow it using sufficient force, heating or boiling just the area to be bent, this will soften the natural bonds in the wood fibre so it will bend without breaking

Some types of wood bend green better than others

Some people when it comes to handles swear by hickory, others white ash, and I am sure that other local woods depending on where you live will be the specie of choice--it will be interesting to here a take by others on this subject--I for one would be interested in hearing what others have to say

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/15 11:34 PM

My broad axe handle is a piece of elm. Jack Sobon told me to grab a funky piece of wood off the firewood pile. When he saw it, he said, "not that piece!". smile I've gotten used to it, but it isn't pretty. Jack said he has steam bent handles, but they tend to straighten out. A natural curve is best.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/01/15 02:44 AM

hello everyone tonight

thanks Dave for coming on board

that is very interesting indeed, in all my years I have never heard of elm being used for a handle, but then again one thing is certain elm is mighty strong, especially a tree that has grown in the open--just try and split it--the grain runs in all directions--my father cautioned me to not use elm for handles because it has a tendency to move around, that is probably why I never used elm my self

Elm has many good qualities it makes a very strong joist where strength is required over a large span, you can't beat it for reaches in sleighs--especially rock elm--our sleighs had rock elm reaches that stretched between the bunks close to their ends --they were about 2.5" in diameter, and their main purpose was for support for the sleepers to roll up large logs on the bunks from the skid ways--you can imagine pulling the sleighs alongside the skidway--a place you drew the logs out of the bush and readied them for movement to the sawmill or a collection area closer to a road

elm also bends good without fibre separation--my father made up some large circular cement forms, lacking cables as a holding medium around the outside of the forms he took elm plank and sawed of 1/2" strips which he wrapped around the form tacking them as he went along building up a 2" thickness, worked well--the forms were around here for years, and were used over and over to make large round cement water tanks for livestock, many people came and borrowed them

thanks again Dave for come in for a chat

maybe someone from another area of the world might give their take on handles and what they used

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/04/15 08:56 AM

You could make a whole study of implement handles and the woods that have been found to be most suitable from a regional stand-point. There was a time when the farmer or carpenter or tool maker made handles with what was available locally and a whole body of knowledge developed about which wood to go to for the best ones. Of course with the onslaught of the capitalistic impulse, mostly that knowledge has gotten obscured by the limited choice of what you can find in the box store on the outskirts of town where the racks are stocked by management types, or order up over the internet, to put it in an up-to-date way.
Anyway, around here - middle part of Europe, I have found that next to ash, elm is most often seen as a handle for a broadaxe and then beech wood. Then you would look to the North of here and in the Baltic area and it seems elm is preferred but they also use birch from the tree which your grandfather had picked out and started manipulating in its growth when the tree was just a sapling. The real knowledgeable ones will tell you to get your handle from crab apple. On the other side, the Frenchman has gone into it and found that hawthorn is a suitable wood and particular kinds of ash, to which the Dutchman will add that that ash must be a male and not the female one. This is really only a sampling of the woods found to have particular charismatics which make them suitable for good handles.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/15 03:02 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

I can always count on you to come up with an outstanding different view on many subjects, I am sure many looking in appreciate your take on many different aspects of life in years gone by --in your neck of the woods--

As far as handles are concerned, I agree Ash is right up there, around here hickory is right up there, never heard of birch or elm being used at least around here, as you know I like wild cherry, it seems to have a personality all its own,

It really blows me away that some would prefer elm for a broad axe handle, it is especially important that an offset handle holds it exact offset, a feature that you truly need to strike accurately

I will admit elm is a strong wood but strength isn't all that a handle needs

There may be types of elm that is genetically superior to the North American type, and I am thinking here if another wood that contains superior qualities depending on where it has grown, you can really see a difference in Northern white pine and Southern yellow pine which grows in a longer and warmer climate

Birch around here at least is the preferred wood for bending, and is fairly strong --the local bushes contain many examples of white birch that still show the weight of the ice storm about 8 years ago now--they are still bent right over touching the ground, and will regrow in this bent posture--hardly any broke--trees 6 or 8 inches in diameter bent right down--they are starting to turn upwards at their tips

Another good bending wood is black ash--the native people used this tree for baskets and other purposes--

Ash is a great fire wood and regrows quickly

Just yesterday I cut down a dead elm about 16 inches on the butt and I counted 25 growth rings--it has been dead for about 3 years now, so it would have a few more rings if it wasn't for the Dutch elm disease that about 30 years ago took most of the mature trees--being a very hardy type of tree it is trying to re establish itself, but it is a slow process, only examples in obscure locations seem to be spared


While I am on the subject of large trees, at one time elm was in that class, during the clean up in this area prior to the flooding of the St Lawrence Seaway project the largest tree in this area stood west of Cornwall Ontario along the old canal bank, and had to be cut down unfortunately-- it was 6 feet on the butt and was a landmark in that area--a slice of that tree was preserved at Upper Canada Village--at one time I knew its age but cannot recall that detail now--I expect between 2 and 3 hundred years--we had on our farm when I was a young lad a elm tree that was 4 feet in diameter which was cut down to produce 3 by 6 joists for our dairy barn--that one tree produced all the joist for the hay loft

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/15 08:14 AM

Well Richard I think your stories and recollections and knowledge are great and I just can't help myself from jumping on that bandwagon. Thanks for putting on such a great show here.

The farmer who lived at this house, being also the village carpenter at the same time, took advantage of the elm kill-off when Dutch elm disease - so called, by the way, because the cause of the sickness was first identified by people in Holland, the name having nothing to do with the origins or cause of the disease - took root in this area. He used lot of elm wood in the interior paneling of the barn and other stuff like this cabinet and by the way it is all badly bug infested.
Luckily a variety resistant to Dutch Elm Disease is now proven and there is a great effort going on in the area to re-establish the elm population which prior to the kill-off was a defining characteristic of the landscape here.

As for its use as handle wood, a steamed or pressure bent piece may well have the tendency to be unreliable, I don't know but I don't see that bending the wood to form the off-set was ever much in use in Europe. The off-set comes largely through the way the broadaxe head typical for this area is composed with a skewed forged socket, the handle more or less an extension with maybe a slight natural curve of its own. A handle on these axes with a wild crook or bend always strikes me as most unhandy and more difficult to control than necessary.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/15 02:44 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don and others

thanks for the compliment Don--I enjoy reminiscing to those that want to listen--I did lots of that when I was growing up--no TV then--mostly just work, chores, studying and getting to school which was the responsibility of parents then, the local gov't only providing the building and teacher--which by the way handled all 8 grades in a one room building

Back to handles---

your broad axe head forged as you described would accept a fairly straight handle, due to the eye's angle to the cutting edge, I guess the movement to a broad axe head that was placed in the centre of the blade's cutting edge with the eye parallel with that cutting edge had some advantages such as being able to reverse the handle for right or left handed people a real selling point and must have appealed to the a majority of the hewers of that time

I hope that a mental picture of such a blade would readily visualize the need for a handle with an abrupt curve as it exited the head, this would allow room for the hewer's hands along the log as he hewed

Hung correctly this offset handle still contained many good points and when the axe and handle is grasped and slowly raised with one hand directly behind the head and the other near its end, the axe head's flat surface should hang straight down and be accurate as it is being used--however once that you have used your axe for quite a period of time getting used to a new one is very difficult and a real calamity

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/15 10:39 AM

And it could also be mentioned that the curve on those broadaxe handles is often compound, sweeping out for clearance, and arching up so the edge gets that much more exposure.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/15 03:06 AM

hello everyone tonight

right on Don, couldn't have said it better myself, the handles do usually have a slight upwards curve, meaning of course as you mentioned, a nice contact angle for the cutting edge, and I might add letting you stand a little straighter to obtain that nice contact cutting angle

At UCV we have an extensive collection of hewing axes in storage some with handles and some without. Both types that were still attached exhibited both straight (no upward sweep) and some with a pronounced upward sweep

It seems to me that the straighter ones were replacements, but then not certain--just an educated guess--the nicely curved to me seemed of a better quality, and were hand done for sure--you can pick out the store bought ones, machines certainly have no feelings, and only deal with offsets and angles--even the size and cross section of the handles are manufactured from a pattern you can tell

I personally like the handle to take a gentle sweep out and gently upwards as it exits the eye of the axe--I like a small notch in the end of the handle for my little finger to snuggle into

Man can you sure get used to a custom made handle it is really scary if you break one you are really used to and have to create and hang one as a replacement--not a good feeling--trying to get that control back that seemed so easy with the old handle

only broke one in my career, trying to sever a large red pine knot, and made the mistake of coming down hard with the heel of the blade---not a good thing to have done should have known better--but as they say hind sight is better than fore sight

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/15 08:47 PM

It's good of you also to point out when it goes other than planned or than you might have wanted. There is also knowledge to be got from mistakes, and who makes none of those? I always like to think, if you are going 60 up to the knot when you get there you go 30 till your past.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/15 02:56 AM

hello everyone tonight

well said Don, couldn't have said it better myself--should have taken that advice myself--I guess that I also gained some knowledge that I am trying to pass on to those that care to listen--slow down when you come to large knots--!!!!!

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/12/15 03:39 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well the day has arrived I am going to try and explain and show the technique of hewing to a brand new candidate--he doesn't have any prior training--this is good--the old saying--"can't
learn an old dog new tricks"--well I like to think that I won't have to fight and correct old thinking processes--can start with a clean slate

I saved out a nice 12 foot ash log from the firewood pile--it is about 12 inches on the small end and fairly straight and relatively free of knots for demonstration purposes

I thought that a little tour through our old timber framed barn would be in order to impress on him the finish I am looking for on the finished surface. I will be pointing out a few other things like the tell tale marks of the rough hewing pass --(the notches placed about 16" apart as you start the hewing process)
You might ask what tell tale marks would you see, well the old timers would rough hew as close to the line as possible at times a little too close, leaving a bit of the notch visible in the finished surface--then you would see the finished scoring marks about 4" apart still visible after the final pass.

As we are standing there, I will point out a few facts like the barn frame needed roughly (6)-- 45' timbers of varying sizes along with (8)--36 foot timbers also of varying sizes, (6)--purlin posts, (12)--exterior and central posts, along with a network of timbers for the barn floor structure

I will also point out all the rafters, which need to have one flat side, each one roughly 24 feet long--and roughly (24) in total

This might get his attention to the fact concerning the amount of hewing required to prepare the timber prior to the carpentry (timber framing) that would start at this point

I will also point out that the 45 foot timbers especially would be quite large prior to hewing even though they look small in their finished state--24 to 30" on the large ends and 14 " on the small ends--just moving them to the hewing area would be a struggle for sure--hewing them another story----

Well now back to the teaching area hopefully with his mind set focused in the right direction

by the way all the timbers are a hard wood (white ash)

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/02/15 01:41 AM

hello everyone tonight

Been a while since I have been able to post but here I am again
I finished that training session and I feel proud that I could hand down something that really couldn't be found in a book--I mean hands on, conversation back and forth, being there to guide his hands, and many other points you take for granted

I just had an inquiry on hewing techniques from a lad in Ohio, maybe he will come on board and we will chat a bit about hewing, he needs some pointers and help with his technique

looking forward, and I am sure you all will jump in with your take

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/02/15 11:31 PM

I haven't (faux) hewed in a couple of years, or done any real hewing in six. It might be time to hew a cruck frame.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/04/15 09:32 AM

This one squaring up axe I'm getting into good order for waiting work.

This one recently acquired and handled I am not yet so pleased with.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/08/15 01:26 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

Thanks for the nice photos

That first axe sure makes me want to do a little hewing, it really is a great looking axe, nice styling,--it appears to have the best qualities of both worlds in its designing

The second axe is great also, nice size, you can see from its appearance it seems to be handled left handed, correct me if I am wrong

The handle has a nice sweep up to it compared to the first one which appears to be fairly straight

I just wonder how you can use both axes with such a different handle styling, and maintain accuracy

The head on the second axe seems to have been hand constructed rather than forged, it makes for a lovely appearance, and is only meant for a left handed person

it also appears to have a few miles on it being narrower on the leading edge

I'll bet they both hold a nice edge

Thanks again for coming on line

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/08/15 02:57 PM

Who knows Richard, it might be due to your getting the thread going again or it might be due to the new, (old) grindstone I got this week but just yesterday I took that axe to the sharpening room and got it ready to go, even set another stem on the trestle for squaring up in the next day or so. Once I get to edging I can say then how that one hold its sharpness, I'm not so sure at the moment to be honest so I'm holding my breath because it is no easy thing to get my hands on one of these axes.

You got a good eye to spot the character of that other axe right away. How do you distinguish constructed and forged, by the way? The iron and the steel on that axe are both really special and yes, it takes a mighty keen edge and holds it like that.

That axe has a pretty new handle of Hawthorn and I am still experimenting with it having cut it down in length from how it started and well, it still doesn't suit me in the least I must say - the handle that is - probably I'll have to start over. The curves are all in the wrong places and I got to stand on the opposite from the one I'm working. Actually the curve must begin abruptly as it comes out the collar and only upwards and none or very little skew at all. It's a special axe and it deserves an equally good handle, so I'm feeling bad about that up till now
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/09/15 01:49 AM

hi Don and others looking in tonight

If I might ask Don, would it be possible to post an end of the handle looking towards the head pics of both axes, just to get a real feel of how the heads are hung

I do believe many would benefit from the above angle shots of these beautiful tools

I have gazed on many broadaxes over the years, and never tire of seeing new ones, and you have two that are top of the line, and should be passed around for study

Thanks again

Richard
NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/09/15 10:56 AM

We can begin with the 1st side axe, what I have come to know as skradbila, the side axe of Sweden.
Plane to see, there is a single bevel

The handle after the collar fairly straight
Only the section entering the collar has a crook.

Well, the geometry on the axe head has its own particularities I can go into another time, not now.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/09/15 11:02 AM

Not to get ahead of the game but here, a look at the other one as it was just after getting its new handle:
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/10/15 12:50 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

Those are great views, and I am sure very educational indeed

That first axe even with the straight axe handle ( no up sweep after exiting the head) should work well, but having said that it means that the hewer will need to bend down more as he works along, at least using the method that I use, because I like to chop/hew with the keen edge of the axe parallel with the centre line of the log, striking downwards

I know others work differently ie: striking back along the side of the log, not my preferred way by any means

It just makes my blood run cold to see how some hew, not safely by any stretch of the imagination

enjoy

Richard
NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/10/15 07:39 AM

Well I have some bad news, the axe in question is in need of an axe doctor. While working to get the edge into good order I grew suspicious of the steel. The iron of the body also struck me as odd once it became visible as some of the oxidation got rubbed away during the sharpening and grinding process but the major concern is the folding and easily dented cutting edge. How could such a thing happen is the question.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/10/15 08:19 PM

These early signs something was amiss.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/11/15 12:15 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

Just wondering how much of the tool steel inset is visible?
Might be a possibility that the axe head has been used so much that it has exhausted the tool steel insert, and the mild steel that comprises 90% of the head has now reached the cutting area

Another possibility is that the axe has been stored in such a way that it came in contact with the ground for an extended period of time, this will draw the temper out of the tool steel

If that is the case, and there is still lots of tool steel visible, you should be able to have it re tempered by a local blacksmith or a good machinist, using a tempering guide in an old mechanic's manual

The trick will be to not get the tempering too hard so that the steel becomes prone to failure along the cutting edge

It is a little easier to control the tempering using today's technology, in yesteryear the blacksmith if they were good could watch and follow the color pattern in the steel as it cooled and hardened--I have had some old tools re tempered by our resident blacksmith George York over the years it was great to watch him work steel, he could just about do anything, or make anything or repair anything you needed in the restoration field

We were working on an 1865 Carding machine one time and it was then I was introduced by George to the different bolt threads used at that time, but that is for another discussion

enjoy

Richard
NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/11/15 11:56 AM

I bring to Bernard, see if he is willing, he did such a nice job on the last, a bit from new 100 year old axel stock and an insert of the finest Swedish high carbon content steel.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/11/15 11:58 PM

Hi Don

you got to be careful with the high carbon steel, things were much simpler in the 1860's, not such a selection and the blacksmiths were used to what was available then.

It is a funny thing about steel if it is too hard it becomes brittle, and not really nice to work with

A good axe's cutting edge needs to be hard but just to the point that you cannot file it easily, something like saw steel. If you try filing it, it will chatter, and make a screeching sound, but will remove some steel--and will hone up nicely near the end, and hold the edge

Richard
NH

let us know how things turn out
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/13/15 08:24 PM

There's a meeting of the blacksmiths tomorrow, I can only hope for good news.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/15/15 04:47 PM

Here I have done the rough hewing the way I like it.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/17/15 01:05 AM

hello everyone tonight

that sure looks like a nice rough scoring technique, now the finishing pass--for those looking in it would be nice to see your procedure for that part, maybe a view as you are partly finished so we all can see that happening

enjoy

Richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/18/15 12:54 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

I was just wondering if you vertically scored before rough hewing, I always did and from what I can deduce at least in this area the old timers did also at approx. 16" intervals, and quickly cut off large pieces which usually laid around on the ground--as I look at the photo you posted I can not make out any large pieces in the background

Just wondering

Richard

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/18/15 07:19 AM

Gee Richard, it's like pulling teeth to get anyone else to pipe in. Oh well, I'm enjoying it and can maybe pick up some more pointers.

You know, I notch but have never liked the notching technique of standing a top the log and chopping them - low, high, middle, left low, high, middle right, with sideways blows. It creates too much force against there with the risk of tilting the log, particularly smaller ones, out of vertical position which has been so carefully established by marks on the endgrain and anchored in that position with a pair of log dogs.

Lately I have unified one squaring-up method with a pair of axes intended to get the work done with great efficiency, one is called "bandhacke" and one is called "breitbeil, German names. The bandhacke for rough wasting and the breitbeil for the final cleaning up pass, axes with quite opposing principles. The bandhacke with its long and narrow bit for directed power and penetration, the breitbeil with a broad flattened surface for creating a plane.

Anyway, you ask about the notching and I pointed out that I do it with a particular axe. Problem is that in normal use chopping down with the bandhacke, it is done in tandem, one chopping the left side of the v notch one chopping down the right side in alternating blown. Really impressive to watch and it gets the job done quick like that. But I am an L.W., lone worker, so mostly working by myself. Still I want to use this axe and avoid those awkward sideways chopping blows, so I have had to adapt. Now I will stand along side the log, start one half of a notch with three or four blows and then reposition myself to chop with three or four swings down the other side of the notch. It sounds awkward and cumbersome when writing and reading but in actually doing it it goes well and in no time I am chopping out through the bottom.

With the notches there like you say at those intervals then I go along-side the stem and knock the wood in-between off also with this bandhacke. I have an asymmetric grind on one particular band hack, it also has its handle sweeping out to the left very slightly, then I press my right thigh against the stem and with full and unequivocal blows chopping perpendicular in the direction of the ground I can knock the chunks off but more importantly establish the vertical orientation of the side of the timber at this point so I don't have to pay so much attention to that when cleaning up with the breitbeil.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/21/15 12:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks for staying with me, and pointing out your hewing technique, it sure sounds different but you know it gets the job done
My father used to say "there is more than one way to do everything", and you know as I worked my way through life I discovered the truth to that statement, having worked with many good tradesmen

I will say that you could really tell the ones that had a family background rooted in European history techniques, no more than one or two generations back, or those that immigrated to North America in the fifties

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/21/15 07:49 AM

Hi Richard,

So many techniques that have all developed independently of one another and even some, I dare say, have come about on a strictly individual basis.
I have often dreamed of a gathering of woodworkers with these different skills coming together to make comparisons and exchanging ideas. Who knows maybe such a gathering would only end in blows and blood noses and black eyes, if there were too much beer and wine involved.

I think one important thing is to analyse every single action and movement after the fact. I know when I first began I didn't go at it like that and I sort of switched my brain off a few paces before I reached the squaring-up station and let my feelings be the guide, just like when I was kid playing on the little league baseball team. I was the pitcher but if I concentrated too much on the target it was all over for me, I always had to look away at the last moment.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/22/15 01:45 AM

hello everyone tonight

Very well said, I too felt strongly about just a hewing gathering of enthusiasts that would be well advertised as a forum to compare the modern and historical squaring of timber, the historical and modern tools, and techniques

It seems to me that safety is being shoved aside as I view how some are approaching the hands on work of squaring timber on the internet

I know first hand that there are gaping holes when one tries to put forth accurate re enactments, the one I remember quite well involved the staging of a barn raising using a single gin pole and horse power

dressing accurately the participants was a breeze--lots of info available--hewing and framing, manufacturing wood pins, the commanders--fair amount of info available--

Where the problem started to get tricky was carrying out the raising tasks historically accurate--in most cases there is not much to go on--putting up the long purlins--slender long squared stems, with many mortises which weakened its integrity--had to be handled with kid gloves, no chance of breaking, or no raising!!

The gin pole, had to be strong enough, but not too large to become unmanageably heavy, getting it raised from ground level to an angle that the long peeves could take over--men can only lift so high, on the first lift, but not high enough for the long peeves, what I did was to have a group with short peeves to take over from the lifters to raise the gin about another 5 or 6 feet--here the long peeves came on board and some danger develops because the gin if it faltered on the third lift it could come back down on the initial lifters--here again the long peeves had to be jabbed well into the gin, no chance of slipping out

For anyone attempting such a re-enactment, be sure to instruct everyone involved prior to the lift so they know their role and the dangers to themselves and others

I found that one of the greatest dangers was as the gin was being hoisted to its correct angle and stayed, the men seemed to relax, I had 4 men on each peeve, and one group seemed to not be aware of the weight of the long peevee, and one came down narrowly missing a worker near the bottom of the gin

a scary moment for me being in charge of every aspect

It ended up going up well, each bent going up with groans from the pulleys, and all the gin pole stays taking the strain of the lift--starting the lift when the bents were nearly horizontal was the maximum strain on everything, it really settled and tried all the rigging--I was using 1" manila horse fork rope rigged in triple pulleys at the top of the gin and double pulleys on the bents--these pulleys were used to move barns and were strong

got to go now

enjoy

Richard
NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/23/15 04:59 PM

So, I have let you see my initial rough hewing, some of the residue and here is the view of the final pass.

The beginning at the butt end, first cuts with the skradbile, the indications are not promising and as it progresses up the stem the quality of the cuts are getting worse and worse

'till it was all to obvious I had big problems

and it was time to call a halt to the proceedings.
Then with a reliable and trusted axe in hand address the damages done.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/15 12:34 AM

hello everyone tonight

HI Don

You seem to be working with the log at a fair height, I always worked close to the ground, maybe 6" high, the height of the sleepers the log laid upon, and they were bedded into the ground about 1/3 of their height, so in other words very close

I always scored on the final pass, (lightly) every 4" +-, trying to not penetrate into the finished surface too deeply. This aided with the hewing on the final pass, and pretty well eliminated any problem with grain tearing etc.

Any historic timbers that I have photographed and examined also show the telltale signs of the scoring on the final pass, usually the bit of the axe being slightly rounded on its centre would remain

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/24/15 06:45 AM

Yes, those scoring marks, so characteristic of how timbers got squared up in the North American places. I like this look very much, thanks for explaining it some.

I am finding that I like squaring-up at a height around my knees maybe even just above that. Like that I am able to relax quite fully, upper and lower body parts, and work in a natural position maintaining, more or less the same posture for all the operations, notching, wasting and surfacing, like I said it before, a unity, none of this being my design but what I have observed.

Right now I've got things set up for squaring up out back on the site where my sheepshead that got crushed under a falling tree's getting rebuilt. The ground is sloping there so it has given me the chance to try out all the possible heights. I must say lower is better than to high.

It's by far my favoured squaring-up scene on that you tube,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZITaHFCMcI&list=PLCffcV_sdtZqvmIMjFWNppnlTAVdeefWd
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/25/15 01:53 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

Thanks for keeping this discussion going and interesting, and I might say educational

One thing though that I would like you to comment on, or anyone else who might like to take a stab at answering it----

Ok--here we go--

"into the theoretical construction site, (lets say it is a new barn being built)--comes 2----40 foot pine, large enough to square 12" on the small ends--these trees are 3.5 feet on the large ends

These logs are to be transformed into the long outside mud sills, would you still raise them up to knee level, if so that would make the top of the log at the lower end approx. 5 feet from the ground--what would your plan of attack be as you instruct your hewing team standing patiently by, waiting to construct an area for hewing these and many others as they continue to be felled and are skidded into the area

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/25/15 07:05 AM

Yesterday at lunch I got a call from the neighbor to help again with bringing the straw inside and getting it stacked, 700 bails or so we unloaded but this barn from 1870 or something, I forget, its posted up there on the gable of the house in wrought iron numbers, it is unusually large, the old farmer saying 80 men were used to raise it and he is that proud to tell that his barn is bigger than most but also built with sturdy construction, (have a few photos if you like to see). I guess the main bents and the wall plates are from wood out the North American woods and must have been something in the range of size you throw out in your story. I've been eyeing them with keen interest and can just make out the axe marks. It was told to me that anyway wood from the tropics normally got squared up prior to transportation to save space and because that made for safer cargo and probably that was also the case for these timbers, so they would have been axed over there.

Three and a half feet, wow that's almost unimaginable here. This is the biggest one I have attempted lately, down there in France.
Working along that long face it gets a bit crampt in there. (You'll have to excuse me in my moth-eaten underwear, it was so hot that day. Summer's not the right time for this work, believe me.)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/27/15 12:25 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

As I look at that picture of you hewing, I noticed that you are grasping the axe handle in a right handed stance (right hand leading), but working like you are left handed, and in the left handed direction normally used by left handed people

I find this unusual I wonder if you could explain how you are able to accomplish this or if it just comes naturally to you

just wondering--nice photo

You are right the timber trade was conducted like you say, the trees were felled here in north America--(Canada)--squared up--rafted down the river to Montreal Que. loaded into the hull of the ocean going vessels and unloaded wherever--

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/27/15 11:22 AM

Ok, ok Richard, here is where it gets rich and the blows may begin to fly because of the strong feelings attached with the way we do things and how we learned those ways, rather by tradition like you having learned from your father who learned from his father etc..., or someone like me who has had to struggle alone from a point of ignorance at no little cost in time and money to say the least. So we are invested in how we each do it and can be expected to have strong reasons for backing it up. But I divorce now my writing self from my woodworking self for the sake of discussions, (ha ha ha don't believe it for a second). I should say I'm not totally convinced there is one right way to do these things, maybe that's not possible given so many complicated variables involved.

But first I wanted to write something about your fantasy scenario from above. Such a massive piece of wood could only be squared from the ground at least initially. In the past for practical reasons and because I am an l.w. I have squared up in two stages first removing bulk waste in a very rough way simply to get a timber to the point I could manage to situate it better. I would also notch it with two cutting the v grooves at one time standing on the ground at the side. How you going to score or notch from above with the bottom side of the timber three feet below your feet? Then with a splitting axe, not a maul, who knows,maybe even a double bitted, with a long handle start rough wasting as quick as possible and once it was reduced, get it to where I could work with more precision and pleasure, though that rough wasting would be fun too.

I guess to be fair the question over grip could be turned around to ask how the ones using the grip the other way round, inside hand at the back, manage it that way. Let me put this drawing up just so that we are both on the same page, knowing that the axe and way you go about squaring the log are different from the way I go about it.

This is one of the standard modern images used widely around the internet and in a number of publications to include the Axe Book from Grnsfors Bruk, the tool catalogue from Dick has also printed this image usually with their own explanations accompanying. I pulled it from a Swedish document about historical carpentry work. It's very interesting mostly for what's omitted.
And here am I going at it another time in that stance I like so much except for maybe not so low.
I wonder what could be said about these shots other than one way is right and one way is wrong. To me there is a certain logic and consistency underlying a grip that allows a posture that is square to the working surface and the forces exerted to be in one line with our desire to get the line vertical with a minimal exertion.

Got to leave it there for now Richard and get myself back out to the workshop.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/28/15 01:46 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

Well it looks like you found a hewing position that really works for you--more power to you, and by all means please don't let any thing that I say change what you are doing--

It really is challenging to say the least to try and teach a common group hewing, knowing full well that some in front of you might not be able to adapt to the norm when hewing positions come up for discussion

It would be nice to have someone speak up on how they handle this situation

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/28/15 07:30 AM

So, if we take the left hand side of the illustration showing the left and right handed version of the "so-called" correct grip, that is, outside hand nearest the axe head, it's plane that this takes a reach across the body causing a dip in the shoulders and a twist at the hips, or the effort required to overcome these natural tendencies. In the other case when the inside hand is the one up high and the outside hand down low there is no unnaturally twisted posture as a result. Both hips and shoulder are comfortably held in a 90 degree relation to the axis of the stem, (see photo above).



Notice how the body faces inward toward the face of the timber as the hewer reaches across his body to grip the axe up high with his outside hand. (I pinched this picture off the internet just to illustrate a point.)


Why is that handle on the broadaxe bent like that? Mostly you will get the answer that this provides for space between the knuckles and the face of the hewn surface, it seems apparent but is it. What if the sweep has nothing to do with the hands but instead is meant to keep the shoulders in this squared up relationship by bringing the rear outside hand in line with the shoulders squared to the face of the timber? Isn't that the more natural position? Doesn't that give a better reference to the result we are after? That the instrument is like that to facilitate the results directly and not indirectly by making the user feel comfortable in a way that gets the hands out of the way literally and figuratively?


It is the hand out front that does the lifting. In the case where that hand is the one next to the timber the forces are only vertical but when the outside hand is gripping up there a correction has to be made to make up for the off-centerer position of the source of the lifting.

I have to wonder if all this makes any difference because it's obvious that the log's get squared up regardless. In one way, maybe is comes down to the effort expended to get it done and working in an efficient way, that way which will be least demanding physically and mentally so that the process becomes sustainable in the long run. I mean in the end it is all about energy, from my perspective. If I get the idea to square up my own timbers but after one timber or one project I find that it is just to much work and not worth it, probably that will be the end of it and I will just have the story of how I squared up those logs that one time with an axe. But if the work goes well and the results are good then it becomes an alternative to the other options available, then I have achieved some degree of choice and become that much more independent instead of just clowning around.

That's my side of it and it would be better to have some countering arguments no, lets say alternative visions.
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/31/15 03:07 AM

Hello everyone. I am the "lad in Ohio" that Richard mentioned earlier. I asked his advice about some problems I've been having while hewing white pine logs. At the risk of being long winded (which Richard can tell you I am), I'd like to tell you a little about myself and what I've been doing.

I am 57 years old and have been hewing logs all summer for cabin building. I'm not building log homes, just smaller structures, cabins. I am hewing two faces, the inside and outside walls. That is the way logs were hewn here in Appalachia.

I have way too much time in each log, but at my age, and after having a heart attack four years ago, I learned a man really can work himself to death.

Each step in the process takes about two hours. Falling, limbing, topping, and piling brush-two hours. Barking the log, I use a D-handled scraper I bought and filed a good edge on-two hours.

Getting the log on a foot high trestle I built (I use a firewood lifter/timberjack to lift it), marking the timber on the cut ends, and snapping chalk lines from end to end-two hours. SAWING back to the chalk line (if I tried standing on one of these logs and axing down...well, let's just say that fresh peeled pine is the greasiest thing I ever seen). I was using a chain saw, but have switched to a one man crosscut for greater accuracy.

Anyway, sawing to the line, then using a miner's axe to rough out the log to within 1/4-3/4" of the line. That combined operation takes two hours too. Then I finish it out by hewing to the line with a Gransfors Bruks double bevel broad axe.

Two hours, hour a side. Like I said, way too much time in each log, but hey, I can't think of a better way to spend a 90 degree afternoon (maybe I better start wearing a hat).

My technique is different than Richard's, or anyone else I've seen online here, but it works for me. Like I said, the log is up on a foot high trestle I built. I am sitting a'straddle the log, when roughing out and when finishing.

I'm working on the right side of the log, roughing from butt to tip and finishing from tip to butt. My leg, the one you might be worried about, is cocked out 90 degrees to the side, or even a little backward at times. But I'm hewing straight down for the most part. I pull backward as I strike, making sort of a slicing motion with the axe. I rarely miss or deflect, but when I do, the axe just buries itself into the chips.

Oh, and I lead with my left hand. I'm right handed, right eye is my dominant eye too. But my left hand is closest to the axe head. Seems more natural that way. I can do it with my right hand forward, under the axe head, it just isn't as easy.

Now, my problem, the one I contacted Richard about, is that as I'm hewing and I get to the very bottom of the face, that last bit of sapwood wants to tear out. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with my straight down hewing technique. I've made adjustments, hewing back toward myself slightly as I get to the very bottom, but it still happens too much. Best way I can describe it is like a ring shake, it tears back behind the line.

I've tried hewing most of the way through, then rolling the log over and coming in from the other side. That works, but it leaves funny looking tool marks. They displease my eye. And it isn't a matter of scoring lightly to catch the split, it pops out way behind the line. Follows the sapwood ring. I could also ask how you'uns handle tear outs around limbs, it's particularly bad on the white pine whorls?

Doesn't seem to be any regularity to the grain at a whorl. Not that I can follow. But I've already pirated Richard's thread enough. I do want to say, I stand in awe of that man. I've read this thread, all 110 pages of it, twice. He's amazing. All you guys, I mean, I just flatten logs, cut notches, and stack em up. Any lad could do that. You guys are artisans. You really are.
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/15 12:40 AM

Welcome, D McBride!
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/15 06:35 AM

From how you describe the tear-out and busting through at the bottom it seems like the wood you are working is quite dry but in your overview as I read it, you are using freshly cut trees. Some wood is inherently weak between the rings and prone to separate. It's the case with a stack of sweet chestnut I am working right now and it means paying particular attention down low like that, lightening up on the cuts, extra scoring and like you say altering the angle of the cut, you can try either direction, so if you are hewing but end to top in a forward moving direction, angle your cut forward for example. It's definitely a problem that can be overcome. Around the whorled sections you can make use of the axes' sharpened toe to slice or pare the unruly fibers cutting perpendicular to the axis all the time but moving forward at the cusp of each cut as if you are pushing the cut forward out in front as you move through the difficult sections. I always like to think, if I am hewing along at 60 and come to a knot, I slow it down to 30.
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/01/15 05:32 PM

You know Don, I bet you're right about the whorls. When I come to a knot, if I'm going at 60 I speed up to 90 on the knot. Green or dry, I take a good full swing at the knots. Maybe I better slow down, go back to pecking. At least on each side of the knot.

One more question, you hew from butt to tip?

When I've tried that on the finishing pass, the results have always been sort of splintery. Don't have that problem when I hew from tip to butt. Not sure why. But that's me, and I'm hewing fairly young plantation white pine.

Like you said, everybody's different. It's just a matter of what works. Thanks for the response.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/02/15 06:41 AM

Funny but I thought to reconsider what I wrote about those knots because it's not just a matter of going slower, that's putting it a bit simple, and what you write makes sense as well. Actually increasing the speed and force can give you a smooth finish around the knots but you just want to reduce the amount of wood you are taking off with those power chops.

I work up one side and come back the opposite direction on the other side. If you are working always in the same direction it means you're either ambidextrous, or you work from the same spot and flip the stem for each side. Which is it for you?

At the end of the film I am working a knot with success. https://vimeo.com/115405907

I don't know if I am so casual, taking an anything goes, if it feels right do it attitude. I do think certain principles can be applied taking all the variables involved into consideration.
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/03/15 12:35 AM

When I'm hewing, I'm sitting on the log. The log is sitting on a trestle about a foot off the ground. That's all the higher I can conveniently lift it. As I begin finishing an already roughed out log, I am sitting clear out on the tip, the butt to my rear. I hew, and then I scoot back, hew and scoot back. As I move backward, the finished hewn face stretches out in front of me. When I get to the butt of the log, I scoot right off the log onto a five gallon bucket. I sit on it and hew the very end of the log. Actually, I use the broadaxe more like a slick on the ends. I pare down to the line with it. I have a hard time hewing the ends as perfectly as I would like. OK, done with side number one. Back to the tip. No rolling the log. I sit on the bucket again, hewing (and paring) to the line at the tip. I'm facing the other direction now, toward the butt of the log. As I hew down the log, I scoot off the bucket onto the log and again start hewing and scooting, hewing and scooting, toward the butt of the log. Now my finished hewn face is behind me as I work down the log. I don't like the second side as much, I like to use the hewn face as a guide as I hew. Can't on the second side, always working into fresh unhewn material. I would prefer to roll the log, that way I could always be working backward with the hewn face ahead of me. But cabin logs are more exposed to the weather than other timbers. You have to worry about tool marks catching rain, allowing dampness a chance to get in the log. I always work the log crown side down, opposite the way it will sit on the structure. If I rolled the log, one side would have tool marks facing up, they could catch rain. In an ideal world, you could just determine, on this particular log, this face will be outside, and that face will be inside. But it gets too complicated, especially when you have to start figuring which butt will go over which tip in the structure.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/03/15 07:27 AM

So rather than switching from side to side , you are pivoting around the center. As a consequence then you switch from working backward to working forward, or the other way round but in any case, always changing direction from side to side which effectively means you make an exact copy on both sides where I am always working in a consistent direction whether I choose to go forward or backward but creating something like mirror images on the two sides. Not that it has consequence for shedding the water because the escarpment of the cuts are facing up in either case so long as you hew with the bottom of the log facing up the water will always shed when placed in the wall.
I wonder why go to great effort to keep the axe pattern consistent when this is not going to ever be apparent because the two sides will never be seen at once. Only the direction of the escarpment is consequential and that is a question of having the bottom always facing up when you hew. Is this because you always want to hew but end to top? In theory it makes sense because you are not cutting into the overlapping growth rings instead cutting out of the ends where each consecutive ring stops. The other way to work like that is simply change the angle of the cut to what fibers at that particular spot are telling you, in other words being aware of and reading the wood as opposed to adhering to the principle, but I'm sure you do that already.
Do you try keeping the cuts more perpendicular or angled?
When you rely on a pairing action it's, understandable, the amount of time it is taking.
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/04/15 02:05 AM

The axe pattern doesn't really matter to me, like you say, no one will ever notice it anyway. I've just seemed to have more problems when I hew from butt to tip. You posted some pictures here recently. It looked like you were having problems with your hewn face getting splintery. It always seems that's what happens to me when I go butt to tip, I'm not sure why. And honestly, I've only went butt to tip on 3 or 4 logs, not enough to really test it. Maybe I wrote it off too fast. I really prefer hewing backwards, it seems easier to me. I don't like the finishing pass I make from tip to butt on that one side of the log. You asked whether I keep my cuts perpendicular or angled them, I cut straight down. I angle some at the very bottom, to help with the tear out problem I have there. But I'm pretty much cutting straight up and down. My tool marks show that the axe is tilted some as it strikes, with the toe of the blade hitting first, at least on tip to butt hewing. No, didn't write that correctly, at least as I BACK up and hew. When I'm hewing the other side, facing the butt, the heel of the blade is hitting first. But still, my blows are perpendicular to the log, starting at the top and going straight down. One last thing, I only pare right at the ends. The last 1/16" to the line. I hold my hand right up against the blade and shave that last little bit off to the line. The very ends of the logs are where I want to be precise. That's where the notch will be. The rest of the log, if I'm a little proud of the line, or a hair behind it, no one will ever know. On the sort of structures I'm making, the logs are a couple inches or more apart, with chinking in between them. Where the corners intersect, error is a lot more apparent. I want to thank you for the video link too, Don. The log you're hewing there looks a lot like the logs I'm working on. I don't imagine it's eastern white pine, though. But it sure would make a good cabin log. One last thing, it may be a few days before I get back on here. I'm sitting with my aunt, I think she's in her final decline. I hope she rallies, but that's selfishness on my part. She's lived a good long life, and she'll soon be in a lot better place. Instantly. That's the way it works.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/15 01:34 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks everyone for the good conversation, I am sure that many looking in are really enjoying the friendly exchanges of technical hewing information

Personally I always hewed from the butt to the top on the rough pass, quickly knocking away about 75% of the wood from the face of the cut, Then I apply finish scoring every 4" to the rough hewn face, and work backwards as I finish the surface with my single beveled broad axe-- to the line or splitting it!

One thing that is important is to apply the scoring at an acute angle away from the direction you are hewing, so that the chips fall away and don't hang up--this seems to be a minor detail but will aid dramatically your efforts to leave a good surface

As I finish the first side, I roll the flat surface up (and level it), secure it, and line the second side on the flat surface from end to end.

Now as you hew the second side you will have a good flat surface to stand on and score between your feet as you ready yourself for the hewing process to begin

Another thing I always did was as I finished each side I would stand directly at the end and visually cast my eye from end to end and see if by chance I needed to correct the vertical face near the centre of the new hewn side, at that point I would go back and touch up if necessary

As a closing remark, I would like to say that in all my years of hewing I never sat down to hew, but if it works for you be my guest

Another thing that I might add is that I do believe that you are placing too much emphasis on the exterior face, just do a good job and be satisfied

Many of the log homes I have examined show clearly the axe marks in the finished surface, and I might add pretty well all the logs used for this purpose are red cedar

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/15 01:39 AM

hello D.

By the way I forgot to say that I am sorry to hear of you Aunt's condition, I went through a similar thing with my mother

She is lucky to have you by her side



NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/05/15 08:33 AM

I will ask both of you about the wood(s) you are working. For McBride, would you call your wood fresh, seasoned, or dry, (we can discuss the distinction between the last two but I just am after an idea if the wood's condition as it's worked up)? And Richard I wonder if your red cedar was very splintery? Or was it only in buildings you have taken a good look at? I found with red cedar, busting out the bottom was a problem, also very resilient wood at the but end, but then mine was grown up in Germany.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/07/15 12:33 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hello Don

Good question--fresh --seasoned --or dry-

I always hewed --newly felled trees--now to explain that term-----

This does not mean trees felled a week prior to hewing, but trees that were felled the previous winter, trees, pine in particular--that still had it bark on--

the bark helps to keep the logs damp, and I preferred to use logs that still had the bark in a tight condition, it gave me good footing especially while hewing on the first side--after that side you always had a good flat surface to stand on, remember I always roll the flattened side up using my technique

Now another little thing--using the construction of the 3 bay English Barn we reconstructed at UCV as an example

As the logs arrived on site say many 12, 16, as well as the 30 to 40 footers--say three years worth of hewing--they were immediately rolled into the mill pond and moored in a safe location

As I needed them we would enlist a good team of horses and retrieve then as required--the water served various purposes--it kept the bugs and worms away, kept the logs moist and easy to hew, and conditioned the wood by eliminating some of the pine
gum especially in the sap layer, after 1 year the bark would loosen and the water conditioned logs were dry on their surfaces and real nice to work with

Now red cedar--not my favorite wood to hew by any stretch of the imagination, very soft and spongy, and I might add hard to get a good finished surface--but having said that there were times that cedar needed hewing--log cabins and log houses, and floor supports in damp locations, usually large cedars flattened only on one side--cedar still remains the #1 wood to resist rotting when subjected to the elements--just have to put this tidbit in--the floor supports under our 140 year old Lutheran church sit only a few inches above ground level but remain in excellent condition yet--they look like they were just flattened yesterday

In my career I hewed 80 --8by8's for the stockade at Fort Henry in Kingston--I am going to tell you I was glad when that was finished

I hope that I have answered some of your questions

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/07/15 06:36 AM

As they say all the time, one thing leads to another, and it does.
Probably many people would agree that the squaring-up time comes best the year after the tree gets laid low, and I would too. Don't get me wrong now, I like to go at in on the freshly felled tree as well, it is just that little bit better the next season. At all costs cutting into dried wood that way should be avoided by way of good planning otherwise something has gone wrong from the outset.

Also, I'm more and more convinced of the benefits of watering in most cases. Too bad the practice has been largely dropped by and large except for some specialists taking the right approach.

The key to getting it right with red cedar is keeping that cutting edge keenly sharpened. It means frequently stopping the chopping and maybe even stropping. Still, the right axe type can also come to your aid when things there are going rough.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/08/15 12:12 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don and others--

Traditionally the hewing took place in the off season, mainly in the winter months, a season when the focus on farm life began to slow down, and you began to look ahead --firewood, which needed to be harvested 1 year ahead to allow for curing was high on the agenda, at the same time harvesting logs needed for a future building, both for squaring and lumber needs went hand in hand with firewood harvesting--and don't forget clearing the land was ongoing for 2 or 3 generations

The cool weather made hewing easier, and the frosty wood yielded easily under the steady blows of the chopping and hewing axe(s), already stressed by freezing temperatures

Trying to reconstruct some of these old processes in really warm temperatures is challenging to say the least, and virtually impossible for many reasons

enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/08/15 11:41 PM

Cedar will make you question your skills at sharpening, I often compare it to a sponge. Nothing better than a pond soaked stick of white pine, the bugs can still get into the surface sticking out of the water, the rest is perfect.


A little hewing for a set of cruck blades sawn this summer, spruce. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUSwEJOyLIQ
Posted By: timberwrestler

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/09/15 06:00 PM

Nice video Tim. Nice stick of spruce too. How come we always end up hewing in the summer?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/10/15 12:36 AM

hello everyone tonight

Just a little something about cedar

One year a few moons ago our restoration division decided to pull out the old shingle saw from storage and cut a quantity of cedar shingles for a roof replacement

The cedar had been cut into 18 inch bolts and by the time we got around to actually sawing them it was mid winter, Well let me tell you the frozen cedar did not cut well, just like cutting into oak, so the morale of this story is don't let the cedar freeze before trying to work with it.

One thing that we did settle was this--there was quite a discussion at that time about how much horsepower it took to drive a shingle saw, some said that it was run with a 2 horse treadmill, some said that it was run with a sweep power-these machines could accommodate 4 horses, I at that time knowing what I know about circular blades having to rotate at a certain speed and be kept there when under load said that I felt the machine had to be driven with a steam engine preferably about 30 to 40 horsepower

Well we enlisted a Massey 35 diesel (35) hp to power the shingle saw, and it took all its power to drive it

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/10/15 11:12 AM

Cedar, it is a peculiar wood, I think we can all agree. Of course I have it over Thuja plicata, no cedar at all, I don't know about the rest.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/13/15 12:38 AM

--hello everyone tonight

You know, as I remember back to the actual framing that commenced after the timbers were hewn, some things stand out in my mind that really worked well

First off--laying out measurements accurately--without the use of tape measures--well we used measuring poles of varying lengths--and you know it worked exceptionally well

We used 1.25" square straight grain oak for the body of the poles, slightly chamfered on the edges and sanded just a little, the ends sloped to a sharp square point, over which the blacksmith manufactured metal ends, also that ended with a squared sharp end, so that repetitive use would not shorten the poles--remember you were using scratch awls as marking tools along the ends so some wear would definitely happen if used up against just wood ends

We had poles from 36" long, 6', 8', 10' and 12 feet

Together with a 36" wood Blind man's folding rule, you could come up with just about any measurement, and do it accurately

The 6', 8' and 10' poles were great when the need to check the square position of a post location and its braces, as you worked your way along a timber bent as it was being manufactured--for those that might not understand, each bent of any structure was laid out horizontally on the ground, and the posts and their braces fitted, and everything squared up as you worked along

As each bent was finished it was dismantled, each part marked in such a way that the whole unit could be reassembled quickly on the day of the raising

enjoy

NH
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/13/15 11:40 PM

We are lofting off the shop floor, plumb line scribing. A small cabin, 20'x21' with a light cruck as the center bent. The crucks are in the video I posted above.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/14/15 06:51 AM

Tim, you say, "lofting" and then "plumb line scribing" and I wonder exactly what you mean. Plumb line scribing is more clear to me but lofting is interesting because it's Norwegian and I've seen you use those unified knee braces just like the Norwegians. Is that how you use the word, that you'er using a Norwegian method?

I might as well get back to this one. This axe is intended for squaring up rafters, but will do for any smaller dimensions.



These are 120 x 120 mm rafters. Six plus meters in length. Flat but not straight.

Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/14/15 11:59 AM

I have always thought lofting belonged to the boat building world, I just adopted the term. From my understanding a shape is laid out on a floor, full size and structure laid in on top the shape is transferred to the timber above via plumb and level. Lofting could also have some aspects of taking measurements from the full size layout and pull those lengths off and carry them to a timber not positioned over the drawing, one would just us it to gain a length. Is lofting connected to a section of a building.... the loft, a place not used for much, say an upper level room? Etymology of [url=lofthttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=loft][url=lofthttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=loft][url=lofthttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=loft]lofthttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=loft[/url][/url][/url]
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/14/15 03:09 PM

Timbeal:
I believe the term "lofting" comes from when the sail makers would layout a full size pattern of the sail on the floor of the loft of their sail maker's shop. Then they'd cut the sail material to that size and sew it up to make the sail

When timber framers saw this method they adopted it to layout timber frames.

I think that's how it was created. But if I'm wrong I would believe that someone here will post the correct version of the story.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/17/15 06:07 AM

For Timbeals eyes only:
Boatbuilding's plausible. Your braces and the Norwegian way of using them too seem like the reverse way they are used in the hull of wooden boats.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/17/15 04:38 PM

As above so below. Things get twisted a bit and braces end up in reverse.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/02/15 02:13 PM

The sweep of the handle of a single bevel is essential though, (speaking here of short handle for the style of squaring up done standing alongside with the timber fairly high up), not to keep the hand next to the wood from getting skinned- like you said it, anyone will quickly learn how to adjust the grip to solve that problem and regardless, I take it for granted I might be leaving a bit of blood behind on the stem but like I was trying to point out, to position your shoulders at a right angle to the axis of the timber and thats why the far hand should be back at the end of the handle, not the near hand, (see drawing above). At the same time, when that sweep gets excessive then the whole thing is out of balance and youre better off with no sweep. Here is an example of excessive sweep. Ive since cut it down but even still the handle is not good.

Like the poll of an axe, the sweep of a handle often leads some to untimely and not thought through conclusions when we go to drawing those in a state of ignorance, and lets face it, since the time between when axes were essential and the time when they have become novelty a lot of knowledge about them has simply become faded memory and the only way to get it back is by keeping an open mind and getting a sense of the subtleties of the massive amount knowledge contained in all kinds axes and do away with the simplistic notions. These do a real disservice to the ones who have contributed to such fine axes we have available to get our grubby hands on and put back to use.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/15 01:58 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well sorry for being away so long, but have needed to rest

While I was resting I was reviewing some of my video footage, and by chance came upon the restoration of the water power that operates the 1865 Mulay saw mill at UCV--for those of you who do not know the terminology, this mill consists of a single vertical 6 foot blade, about 12 " wide and 3\16" in thickness, with 2" teeth set at 2.5" spacings

I had entered it on one video disk and covered the rebuild of the horizontal pressure box, the large 12"oak drive shaft, and the eventual installation in the mill.

The box (all heavy white oak segments) were adzed out circular on the inside. These segments 3 in total were bolted together after adzing side by side, the adzed out interior about 36" in diameter, the box itself appears square on the outside

The shaft was turned oak 12" in finished size, with multiple tapered areas on each end to accept specialized castings, such as heavy ringed collars with cups, that directed the force of the pressurized water inside the box which in turn rotated the shaft, to power the saw blade

Other components installed on the ends of the wooden shaft were
what was referred to as spiders, or gudgeons, these specialized castings had for instance on the drive end, a 12" offset crank that as it rotated lifted and lowered the blade 24" and operating at approx. 100 rpms

You can imagine the strain and vibration on the crank as it reached its upper and lower limits at that speed

You would wonder how it was fastened in place so that it would not fail after a few minutes let alone years of work

Well let me tell you the old millwrights knew the secret--for another time--

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/02/15 02:46 AM

well hello everyone tonight

just to continue on----

The old millwrights used hot lead or babbet if it was available, babbet was used for bearings and was stronger but dearer and more scarce to obtain--the babbet was heated until--get this--a dry pine shaving would burst into flames upon contact--my millwright and I conducted an experiment and we registered the temperature of the babbet, from then on we just heated the lead to this temperature when we were actually pouring the babbet--it came out beautiful, and didn't burn the oak that contained the wings of the crank and idler gudgeons

After pouring and cooling the babbet it was pounded with a mallet and dull edged babbeting chisel all along the wings to expand and really tighten everything

Right now this whole unit has been operating approx. 12 years and shows no sign of failure

Going on to another aspect of this setup the pitman which was heavy oak approx. 9 feet long and rectangular in shape had to be renewed as part of the restoration, this shaft connected to the offset crank (which we just renewed and leaded in), up to the sawing level and attached to the 6' blade, (referred to previously).

Now has any one an idea how this wooden pitman was attached both at the upper and lower level, so that it could withstand the jerking and yanking experienced as the large wooden shaft rotated , especially when it was under load and experiencing the cutting action of the blade at the nominal rotation of approx. 90 rpm,.At the lower end (crank end) the crank rotated in a 24 inch circle, and of course at the blade end had to move back and forth slightly

it is incredibly interesting in my opinion to understand this old technology


Thanks for coming on board let me know if you enjoy this deviation from constructing wooden frames, I did construct historical wooden frames too, but thoroughly enjoyed straying into other historical areas, which at times intermingled with hewing, framing, millwrighting, it sometimes is hard to understand the connection and the experience needed at times to carry out a project, that might include hewing timbers, it might also be setting a steam engine in position, it could be placing mill stones and their associated drive mechanisms in place on their "beds" which in my case were very heavy oak husking frames that they rested on--If there is interest I could really expand on this subject-let me know

All I can say is enjoy the chat, it may be of use to some of you someday--I hope so

Your friend Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 02:30 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well I guess there seems to be no interest

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 02:31 PM

Thanks for sharing and I'm interested in anything you want to tell us about.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 03:49 PM

Dido Jim comment...love reading your post!!

T think much of what comes accross forum post like yours are more than worth of publication...Deep thanks. I check in on this "running conversation" ever so often and find the information/conversation very enjoyable...
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 04:03 PM

Lofting

This topic has a broad history, and much of it out of context and in other cultures as well...but with similar applications. Even "wiki" does a decent job with outlining and/or defining it.

Tim B. gave a good basic run at its Etymology and it does have many meanings from a term in golf to a space in architecture.

In the "design-build" world it goes back millenia and is part of the entire world of "scribing modalities." Its origin in most likely first employed in sculpture and then in boat building. Its use in sculpture, such as stone gives it and other "3D" methods of transferring and transcribing datum from a "flat plane" into a three dimensional plan. There are countless ways of doing this, and again it is found in many cultures (Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Asian.)

It can be performed off a "lofting floor" but is not limited to this method at all. There are methods that can use walls and even the ceiling. These "flat planes" become the "grid plane" and then in the visual space surrounding it we form a 3D context of what is to be constructed...a boat, a plan, a timber frame or perhaps the orgin purpose a figure or object to be sculpted.

Armature methods are part of this data transfer as well but that takes this more into the world of sculpture (but applicable) than its context to timber framing...
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 04:32 PM

Oh, actually I was mistaken Jay, taking "lofting" as "lafting". Spoken they might sound similar because you don't got that hard "a" so much over here. Anyway, just a bunch of confusion, sorry about that.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 04:59 PM

Hello everyone tonight

Jay and Jim--thanks for your comments--

What I am wondering also is there anyone looking in that might be considering historical mill reconstruction, or should I be posting in other domains?

I really like it here, and I have a real gut feeling that many like yourselves enjoy dropping by

Just to carry on a bit with my topic the bearing that connects to the offset crank on the "Rose Wheel" or what I refer to as a "horizontal Barrel wheel" is quite a complicated wooden split bearing, it is adjustable as it wears, is water lubricated, and can withstand vibration and stress if it is well constructed

I have to go right now but will be back to expand the topic's technical features

Enjoy

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 06:02 PM

Hi NH,

I am not sure if you are active on "LinkedIn."

I suggest/recommend to many working in a professional capacity within the "Historic Restoration" and related artisan/professional trades to join the different "groups" that are available to professionals in their field within LinkedIn. Some are "open" while others are "closed" and request a "submission" for entry. These groups have among their memberships a global network of museums, historical societies, NGO, governmental and related organization like UNESCO that share information on all manner of related topic. Some of it "timber framing" and the topic of "vintage tool markings" has come up over the past few years as it pertains to kerfing, planning, hewing and related tool marks.

I think much of what you share would be of interest there as well.

Warm Regards,

j
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/03/15 06:19 PM

Please continue, Richard. My grandfather had a big commercial cider press, it had wooden screw threads. Nothing like you are talking about, but the whole concept of wooden pieces of machinery fascinates me. I never got to see grandpa's press, no more than I will ever be able to see your mill. But I see them both in my mind's eye as I hear them described.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/04/15 07:58 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well the bottom bearing---where will I start---

The pitmnan at this point is 4" thick and 6" wide--this seems to be stout enough, but we have to insert a wooden bearing which is 4" thick--the thickness of the pitman and aprox 4" wide and 6" , long--length not being the problem here

So if you are following me along at approx. 3 " from the end of the pitman a square cut out has to be removed with dimensions approx. 41\8"by 7.5"in length--the extra length of opening being used for the passage of a slightly tapered wooden wedge that will pass through the 6" width of the pitman just above the cavity for the bearing

In your minds eye you probably will say that there is not much wood left, and you are right, and the old millwrights knew this so a special length of 3\16th by 4" steel band is fashioned stretching from well above the cut out around the end of the pitman and up an equal distance on the other side, this steel hammer strap will need to be accurately cut out at all the openings and well fitted snugly at all turns--good sharp bends--

this hammer strap is secured at the upper ends with 2--- 1\2" carriage bolts and at the lower end, now get this--at this point the end of the pitman is fashioned into a 2 by 2" by 1\2" thick tenant which will snuggly fit through an opening in the hammer stap, and I mean tight, no fooling around--

Have you all followed me so far?

enjoy NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/04/15 08:14 PM

I am doing my best but trying to find old pictures of some...Is there ways to get photos of this, or is an additional blog chronicling these efforts? It sounds (what I can make of it) a very interesting build/restoration...
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/05/15 10:46 PM

I really enjoy checking in on this thread, but don't often have a lot to say. I always look forward to reading any new posts in here.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/05/15 11:14 PM

NH...to second what Dave said...I think you would be surprised at home many of us "check in" on your posts. I think most us would love to pay you a visit and see all the things you are up to!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/09/15 03:20 AM

hello everyone tonight

thanks for the replies, it gives me an incentive to continue to try and put forth what I consider interesting as well as educational material, that has a connection with historic framing, in the sense that if any of you would during your careers happen to be faced with or know someone who might be confronted with a similar task could work their way through it, in this case constructing or reconstructing historic mill structures as well as their associated equipment

To continue with the reconstruction of the power and drive train in a 1865 water powered vertical blade mill, we are at this point still working on the lower adjustable pitman bearing--

We have the pitman at this point mortised out to accept the insertable bearing unit, the pitman has been reinforced with a specially forged and shaped hammerstrap--now back to the bearing itself--

The wood bearing dimensions will be roughly 4" wide, 4" thick and 6" long, of solid good quality white oak

Through the centre of the block a hole is created which in my case was 3-", the exact size of the pin on the offset crank referred to previously --now this has to be done with care using callipers on the pin to ensure a very tight fit. Do not worry about too tight when I say tight I mean real tight, it will quickly wear, and will not overheat due to the water lubrication. In fact the friction will glass the surface of the wood and create a real hard wear surface.

Now this block is cut through the centre of the pin hole, creating an upper and lower section. The cutting action will create a very small amount of room for tightening when the bearing is worn in during the initial running of the new bearing, and should bottom out

Now we get back to the some additional work needed on the adjustable wood bearing

Try and follow me--up the edges of both sections of the bearing, as well as across the bottom-- 2 mortises are let in to accept a "u" shaped strap 1\8th " thick by 1.25" wide--this strap is fastened solidly to the bottom section with 4--flat head #10 screws--2 on each side--the top section of the bearing will slide down on top of the bottom section being held in place by the guiding groves and the upper part of the strap, that is securely fastened to the lower section

Here again care needs to be taken to work accurately to ensure a tight fit

Now the bearing is inserted in the pitman and we will continue to the next step--we are not done yet----

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/13/15 02:56 AM

hello everyone tonight

Now back to the bearing---

Lets get one thing straight before we go any farther-- the pitman at this point is not in the mill but still in the workshop, having been previously shaped for size and length from previous calculations, in the case of a restoration it usually means transferring measurements from an original part, at times this is not easy because of wear and breakage,or rot causing the part to disappear , and would need extensive research to bring to light what the new part's historical dimensions and appearance were--there is some caution here because what one does in a restoration will be regarded as accuracy in subsequent restorations down the line, so be careful!!

Well we have the bearing slid into the opening in the pitman, and now to fasten it in place

Previous to this point it is understood that the new bearing has been tried on the pin of the offset crank in the mill and will fit when the pitman is finally inserted in it proper position

fastening it in position is as follows--the bottom section is held secure by boring though the metal band encasing the bottom of the pitman two 3\8ths" holes from side to side, passing through the bottom section of the bearing, missing its metal band--the 1\8 by 1.25 previously mentioned-- then 2---3\8" carriage bolts are inserted and drew up snuggly, tapped slightly with a hammer as tightening is finalized--these bolts then have any excess threads removed and the peaned lightly to ensure that the nuts will not loosen due to vibration and other possible reasons

Now as we look at the pitman with its new bearing in place we will notice excess space from the top of the bearing to the top of the mortise cut out in the pit man--this is for a reason--passing through the pitman at this point is a long slender wood wedge that as it is driven through will tighten down the top section of the bearing very tightly and then secured in place

The sticker here is the direction of the wood wedge and some other interesting tidbits--to be discussed

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/15 11:31 PM

Was white oak the wood of choice due to rot resistance? I know hard maple and beech are often used as bearing materials in friendlier environments.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/15/15 02:31 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hello Dave

Thanks for coming on board, and good question

Well this is my take on it--White Oak in this case is my preferred type of wood to use--it doesn't mind the wet environment, in fact water and oak work good together, water seems to lubricate it, and seems to last a really long time before replacement is necessary

Hard maple and Beach--both good bearing material--hard maple in my mind is the superior one--gets real glassy when used for a dry area bearing it is important that you overheat it a bit by tightening it down and lots of lubrication until you can notice a little heat being generated-- then loosen back until it runs cool--great for line bearings in most mills when a babbeted bearing is not available--of course this type is superior to wood, our woollen and grist mill at UCV has all babbet bearings, with some brass bearings mixed in

the 1867 vertical blade saw mill is another animal so to speak--seemingly very crude at first glance, but in reality quite a complicated machine--we will discuss some of these features as we move along

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/16/15 06:16 PM

Hello Richard, I've really been enjoying your talk on the mill. Trying to picture it, I went online to see what else was out there. A picture says a thousand...and all that. Well, I found a link to a working sash mill in Connecticut. A little different than what you're talking about, but what caught my eye was a glossary of terms on this website. The thing that interested me most was their definition of "pitman":
" The connection from the crank on the waterwheel or flywheel to the saw frame. Analogous to the literal pit man on the bottom of a two man pit saw crew."
When the old Northwest Territories...Ohio...where I live, was settled, the first construction was carried out by New Englanders pit sawing timbers to build their fort and dwellings. Being the "pit man" was an unpleasant job, you were continually showered by sawdust and shavings. Anyway, I've used the term pitman all my life. That's what drives the cutter bar on a tractor when we're making hay, for instance. Never knew where the term came from. And wouldn't, had not Richard brought this whole subject up. Ripples on a pond, friends. Ripples on a pond.
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/16/15 11:31 PM

Meant to leave the link:

http://www.ledyardsawmill.org/historic-technology/sash-sawmill-glossary
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/17/15 04:01 AM

That job is where the old saying: "This jobs the pits" comes from.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/18/15 03:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

welcome to the chat room D. McBride--I really enjoyed the link spent last night looking it over--it has a nice video showing the frame saw in motion--seems to run very well

There is a similar mill in NB Canada (king's landing) I have been there and seen that mill in operation--what I noticed was the vibration and noise as the saw cut--quite a contrast to the mulay mill at UCV that runs smoother , quieter

It seems to me that there was endless variations of saw mills and their equipment, the powering source--water wheel or turbine, the saw frame and in particular the methods of saw frame movement

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/21/15 02:22 AM

hello everyone tonight

well got sidetracked as usual just too many things that are interesting to chat about--now to continue the pitman bearing

--the wooden wedge is next on the agenda--it passes through the pitman in the opposite direction from the orientation of the wood bearing--actually just above it, which means that another mortise hole has to be let into the pitman and transverses through the metal band encompassing the end of the pitman shaft as well as through the wooden segment itself.---

Now just one more thing, before you insert the wood wedge to tighten the bearing,s segments is this a flat plate needs to be fabricated unless the old one is at hand, this flat plate is shaped so that as it goes into place on top of the wood bearing and will absorb the wear and tear of the friction and other extremes that will develop from the pressure of the wood wedge as it is now driven home and secured with a small nail to keep it from moving out of place

with the insertion of the wedge the lower end of the pitman now is ready for the work ahead--we will be moving to the top end next and deal with its many intricacies

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/24/15 01:28 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well to the job at hand----

let us deal alittle with the shape of the pitman itself, it slowly tapers from bottom to top, with a nice chamfering of its edges--it retains its rectangular appearance though and slowly comes to an abrupt end at the predetermined length which probably is transferred from the old worn one or if it is a completely new reconstruction, calculations will have to be made to ensure that the complete travel of the pitman in its up and down stroke fits the new elevations of the turbine box and the guide block that is located just underneath the vertical blade--this section will be discussed at length--

for now we will just say that the pitman's upper end will need to be fitted with a heavy bronze bearing in such a way that it also be able to withstand the tremendous jerking and yanking of the rotation of the turbine plus the cutting action of the blade on the down stroke

enjoy NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/25/15 02:35 AM

hello everyone tonight

the pitman cont'd

The upper end bearing is simpler in some ways but still has its unusual characteristics

The bearing itself is a heavy split bronze bearing that will eventually be fitted to a hardened 1" pin that anchors it tightly to the guide block

this is the way it (the bronze bearing)is anchored to the upper end of the pitman---the bearing is very near 3.5" square on its base, but the base of the bearing is not flat but has an indentation of 2" square by 1" deep, and the end of the pitman is shaped to fit snuggly up into this indentation

Now we have the base of he bearing seated on the end of the pitman--now to secure it and the upper half securely without any chance of failure

To achieve this again a heavy iron strap is forged and fitted to the graceful lines of the sides of the shaft it starts about 16" down from the upper end and encircles the lower and upper parts of the bearing finishing down an equal distance on the opposite side

I might add right here that the external surface of this bearing is shaped so that it accommodates this strap so that it (the bearing) cannot escape out sideways

Now to secure the strap

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/15 07:56 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well to finish the attachment of the upper bearing------

This strap is held in place by a tapered key that is about 7" long (roughly)--it passes through the steel strap on both sides of the pitman, is rectangular in shape and about 1\2 " in thickness, and tapering from 1\2" on the one end to 1.5" on the other end

You can see that the taper of the key is very small for a purpose, which is to tighten and pull downwards the steel strap as it is pounded in--you probably are wondering how this is effected well the mortise hole through the pitman is in line with these two holes through the metal band but not quite the mortise hole extends downwards to give the tapered key enough room to continue the pressure downwards until everything is very tight, then the key which has various small holes on the smaller tapered end, one is selected that has just exited the metal band and a small bolt is slipped through and double nutted to ensure that it will not come loose with vibration

Now you will say "whoa"--how do you get this set up over the 1`" pin on the guide block---to be continued--

-- well enjoy for now--

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/30/15 02:49 AM

hello everyone tonight

The Guide block which will be described a little later is in itself a very important part of this whole setup, it looks very crude at first glance, it has very few metal parts, and could be constructed right on site from sections of hardwood that was probably available right at hand--like most of the parts that make up the mill itself--enough about the head block for now back to attaching the pitman to it as we work our way up from the barrel wheel----

before we attach it to the head block, it will be necessary to ensure that the centre line of the pitman is directly underneath the attaching point on the head block--well now out comes the heavy plumb bob with a fine nylon line-it is dropped down from the centre of the attaching point on the head block to the pin on the offset crank on the axle of the barrel wheel. The axle at this point has no pitman on it, and will be revolved slowly from the bottom of the stroke to top dead centre, at the bottom of the stroke calculations are taken where the plumb touches it and then at the top also where the plumb touches it--this will verify how level the axle of the turbine is, at this point some adjustment of the wood bearings supporting the axle may have to be made to ensure that all is perfectly level.

I might ad here that an axle out of level will destroy the attaching bearing in a very short time, so no mistakes, or all your work is for naught!!!

If all seems good then the pitman is once again slipped on the pin installing spacers on both sides of the pitman to hold it its proper position, these spacers are large flat washers specially made for this particular task, finally a wrought iron bolt it slipped through the hole in the pin and lock nutted to ensure that it remains, until it needs to be removed

Just a note here the pin on the crank is about 1.5" wider than the width of the pitman, this width is needed to be able to compensate for sideways movement of the mill building, in relation to the position of the turbine, which will not move with the building, it is my experience that showed that our mill continuously moved towards the lagoon in 50 years of operation, causing problems with pitman attachments such as wear on the pitman bearings due to operating the mill with out of perpendicular attaching points---our mill actually moved so much that we had to take drastic measures to keep it in operation, until we could reposition the barrel wheel each time during 3 bebuilds

One of these drastic measures was to cable the mill structure below ground level to a dead man, this slowed things down but did not eradicate it completely

well so much tonight, didn't get the crank attached but we will

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/15 02:25 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well here we are slowly working up to the upper pitman connection at the floor guide block

This is the way we did it----having turned the turbine shaft and the pitman to top dead centre and anchored it firmly, I moved to the upper level where the vertical blade, and its guide assembly is located--the next procedure is to remove the blade by removing the front wooden guides, and removing the single bolt attaching the bottom of the blade to the top of the guide block

Then the trick is to attach a light rope to the top of the guide block and pull the guide block upwards about 16" and securing it there--

Now going back to the upper split bearing of the pitman, the long slender key is removed and slowly slide upwards the strap off the top of the pitman, leaving the bottom half of the bearing on the top of the pitman, and taking the upper half with you along with the metal strap

Now you slip the metal strap through and over the 1" hardened steel bolt on the bottom of the guide block and slowly lower the unit back down over the end of the pitman, installing the upper half of the bearing in place at the same time

Once down in place the tapered key is reinserted and secured as previously explained

This completes the installation of the newly renovated pitman on the turbine shaft and securing it to the blade's guide block that is directly below the blade, and which is housed between 2 vertical hewn timbers that are secured firmly at their tops to the massive 20" square ash timber that spans across the building just below floor level

These timbers sit on other horizontal timbers, each vertical timber having a tenon exceedingly smaller than the mortise hole in all directions

I have been doing a lot of talking here so could anyone have a suggestion why the tenons on the bottom of each post is smaller than the mortises that they reside in?

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/02/15 02:49 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well here is the answer--the 2 guide vertical timbers are independently adjustable by placing wood wedges from the bottom crowding the timber's vertical stance or position very accurately, what I did was adjust one timber so that it seemed to be correctly positioned and then lower the guide block down and crowd over the opposite timber with wedges until the guide block will travel full distance up and down without binding or loosening--

Now one little thing that I did was to raise the unit by rotating the turbine manually to top dead centre , then at this point from the centre of the blade's attaching point I dropped down a plumb bob and marked it accurately on the side of the pitman--now I mean accurately using a fine nylon line, then I lowered the pitman gently by once again rotating the turbine manually to the bottom of the stroke and once again checking if the plumb line crosses the previous mark, if all is well it should be lined up perfectly if not more adjustment is the order of the day, this needs to be repeated until you are completely satisfied that it is as accurate as you can make it

Once that has been accomplished you are able to move to the next step

I might say that the directions I am giving you are not available as far as I know in any historical mechanics book, and I hope it helps someone someday maintain our historical mill legacy, I always felt proud to be able to pass on some of my knowledge of this old equipment to a new generation

I also realize there are many very knowledgeable people out there that operate old mills, but operating and repairing and maintaining are horses of 2 different colours--even myself in the years gone by would look at a large empty hole in the first storey level where the turbine and pitman was located during a regular interval rebuild.

With everything removed and the onus is on you to ensure that everything would be back to operating order which in most cases was about 6 months away, with operating season to begin once more at that time--it sure separated the men from the boys for sure--but I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the challenge

Early on in my career I needed advise on some aspects of the rebuild, it was at this time I realized I was completely alone because 90% of the other mills used other types of water power mostly water wheels of the overshot , undershot or breast wheels, while other used a more modern metal turbines, all early but did not relate to the early horizontal barrel wheel that I was working with in the saw mill, and its associated linkages

Some early books would show the various parts of the mill but no explanation of how they were used or how for instance you inserted them in working position

well sorry for rambling on but I will be getting back to the work at hand

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/04/15 03:23 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well lets talk about the guide block --this is a quite an important part of the whole scheme of things it guides the upper end of the pitman in its proper orientation to the blade as it delivers vertical motion from the turbine's rotating motion, it has to be constructed to withstand the jerking motions as the turbine speeds up to cutting speed both at the upper and lower ends of the stroke

at the upper end especially it has to reverse the upwards travel of the weight of the heavy blade which is about 50 lbs. in a few slit seconds, but, if you think about it, as the pitman approaches top dead centre and before it begins its return down it has some sideways motion across the arc which has no upwards motion so it helps to lessen the effect of the up travel, and the stress and strain on all the linkages

now back to the guide block--

it is quite heavily constructed, and is fashioned in such a way that it can continue to work and work day after day week after week and yes year after year without failing

the whole (main) part of the unit if my memory is correct is about 30" wide and 24" high give or take a little made from 2.5" hardwood usually white burl oak, the wrought iron linkages at the top for the blade and at the bottom for the pitman are connected vertically through the unit, with (2) -- 3\4" bolts which take the jarring strain and also hold everything together

I might say right here that the mill's guide block has never needed to be changed since it went into operation in June of 1961 when it cut its first plank--quite a record--cutting approx. 20000 bd. ft. yearly--you can do the math--

more to this story

enjoy NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/05/15 02:38 AM

hello everyone tonight

The Guide block continued-------------

We have generally ascertained the dimensions and composition of the guide block but there are other unusual characteristics that make this part very interesting----

enjoy

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/05/15 01:17 PM

That is an impressive amount of lumber to have sawn on that type of machinery.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/15 01:27 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Dave,

Thanks for coming on board.

It is amazing but the fact is that part of my responsibilities was to purchase the white pine logs that would be sawn throughout the next season.

This was really enjoyable because #1 I enjoyed treaking through the bush to actually see the quality of the logs before cutting and #2-- in most cases I selected and marked the ones that I was going to purchase.

I worked very close with suppliers to ensure that their quotes reflected the quality standards on the purchase order, as we all know the lowest price is usually not the best, or what is required by our maintenance personnel.

You know it was sort of unique because our mill's production pretty well filled the maintenance needs of UCV's small early village portrayal, the carpenter shop, the cabinet shop, the agriculture division, the blacksmith shop, and any other needs.

Sometimes the suppliers were taken back by our strict purchasing rules but as you probably well know white pine is notorious for black hidden knots, and it is imperative that the pine has started out its life in a thick stand of trees so that it gains height quickly, and the young lower limbs disappear quickly letting the trees attain girth of good quality wood devoid of knots.

I did it for so many years that as soon as I entered the bush I could tell what kind of lumber would be forthcoming from the logs--having said that you do get fooled once in a while.

One thing--- I refused to buy logs already sawn and in a nice neat skid I wanted to see them prior to felling.

I remember once entering a bush up near Calabogie Ontario Canada what a wonderful stand of pine--they held their size for nearly 30 feet and then tapering gently to 60 feet +-' just a few limbs on the top, and the wind was gently swaying them back and forth--.

This was great country for northern white pine in the early 1800's and I envisioned in my eye the countryside as it was then covered with a heavy growth of large trees, in 100 years the whole area was clear cut and exported to Britain, the logs were floated down the Ottawa river in rafts to Montreal, a lot of them squared in the bush by hand with broad axes before rafting.

It seems I always get off line from the topic but I guess this is part of the overall picture, and the reason mills were needed such as the 1865 mill at UCV.

Thank goodness that someone had the foresight to go that extra distance and convince the powers in Toronto at that time to create a depository of mills, homes, barns, shops and all other out buildings which would have been lost for ever.

I would like to take my hat off to Mr. Peter John Stokes the restoration architect that overseen every aspect of detail as the village grew during the construction phase 1958--1961 , and whom was a very close friend of mine and my father--he really dug his heels in when things were needed to be done properly.



Thanks again Dave

I hope everyone else looking in are enjoying these chats, don't be afraid to say hello, your name and where you reside, I encourage any input.

Enjoy this Christmas season as it approaches.

Also thanks to the TFG guild members for making this chat room possible, my hat also goes off to you keep up the good work.

Richard

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/15 02:05 PM

I saw mostly Eastern white pine. I always try to get the best possible logs. It always pays to have good material.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/08/15 03:25 AM

hello everyone tonight

once again thanks for saying hello Dave

Getting back to the Guide Block-------------------

Now we have more or less explored the relative shape of the guide block and some of its strengthening features, now to the wear points--there are 3 on each side--

Reviewing the main part of the head block it is about 30" wide and 24" in length--now to this rectangular block which is made up of 3 cross members of 10" width material-- 2.5" in thickness--these in turn are mortised and tenanted into two vertical pieces of the same thickness on each (both) edges, 4" in width--this is well done with tight fitting joinery work--the tenants on the horizontals extending completely through the vertical pieces--on the work table small hardwood wedges are driven into the ends of the tenants, with a slight application of glue expanding the ends until there is absolutely no chance of movement--through each mortise and tenant is placed (3) hardwood 1\2" pins which are also glued, (no draw bore is necessary)-to finish this out a sanding and finishing of the pin ends is in order

We are now ready to move on to the application of the Guide Block's replaceable wear strips these are to be applied so that each year or oftener they can be replaced as required without altering the Guide Block itself in any way, and should be made up in sets and be available for immediate use to lessen any down time during the production

There is a little trick to this which we will discuss tomorrow, and also discuss at length the procedures necessary to be taken upon the renewal of a set of wear strips should that be needed

Is everyone following me so far?

Any questions?

I am trying to be as clear as possible, but may be missing some technical points

Be assured I will not move on from the guide block until I feel everyone is comfortable with my explanations as we move along

You can see I am sure this rough looking mill is beginning to exhibit some very fine features, and I assure you they will get finer as we move along

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/09/15 03:18 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well I guess everyone is following the thread along pretty closely--that is good--

Now, back to the wear strips--

The next step is to prepare two pieces of hard maple or beech, this has to be good quality and as dry as possible, preferably been in storage for 2 to 3 years (after air drying for one year) in a dry environment--I personally like a hay mow, but you might also have an attic area that serves the purpose well.

Now the process of preparing these pieces, remember I said you should make 2 pairs, well if you have the material at hand you might just as well do 4 pair

The material has to be the height of the head block plus 1" above and 1" below so in total 26" in length

The other dimensions are 4" wide, and a full 1" in thickness. These finished measurements are after bringing the material down from the rough to these dimensions

I would hope that you use hand tools to do this work because I find that the old equipment accepts readily and responds to hand worked parts, for what ever reasons---------------

Now you take the head block and lay it on the work bench suspended on 3\4" cross pieces,--this will hold the head block at the right elevation in relation to the wear strips for the next step--

It is imperative that the worktable has a tried and proven flat
surface

Now taking the wear strips and placing them 1 on each side, remembering to place them 1' above and 1" below the guide block, you clamp them securely with bar clamps

at this point you are ready to fasten them to the guide block in a manner that they are easily removed but secure to the point of not failing

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/14/15 01:04 AM

hello everyone tonight

well here we go--maybe some of you have already figured out how this is done--after I explain the technique the old millwrights here in Upper Canada used, maybe you could come up with an alternative method for discussion, but please have examples that might have been used in other parts of the world to back up the views you are putting forward

Anyway, we have the 2 wear strips at this point tightly positioned against the guide block's edges, about 1" above, and 1" below.

I will try and explain the next steps------------

We will be placing a series of 1\2 " holes through the wear strips on either side, each passing through the guide strip, to a depth of 2" into the guide block

Now we know that on the face edge of the guide block are mortise holes that contain the ends of the horizontal members making up the main body of the guide block, so #1 we do not want to place any 1\2" dowels in the ends of these tenants--the position of these will have to be carefully monitored and marked on the outside face of the wear strips, so that positioning of the dowels can accurately be plotted.

I recommend 8 dowels be used, dividing them up in their final positions --your job----

let me explain one thing right now after the holes are drilled and the dowels placed, it is imperative that you can remove the wear strip, by slipping it up off the dowels and sliding on a new one as required, due to wear in the future--

To do this each dowel has to be inserted as close to a 90 degree angle as possible

What I did was use a 16" ship auger and make up a jig that would sit against the face of the wear strip that the auger would rest in as the drilling was in progress

Having said this the whole setup is a bit forgiving, but not much

now with all the holes drilled select (16)--3.5"-hardwood " pins and chamfer the points slightly, they will be cut off later

Tap them all in place --no glue--

Take some sand paper and sand the exposed ends to remove a few thousands of an inch off each one, this will allow the wear strip to be tapped into place, but not yet!!

well got to go

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/15/15 01:02 AM

hello everyone tonight

Now here we go-----

I have to back track here a little, before you tap in the 1\2" dowels, please do the following--

Remove each wear strip carefully after the holes are drilled, and mark each one's back face, and the up end--it will be needed to identify where each one goes later on, and preferably make a notation that identifies the first 2 pair as being the only ones to be used to create new wear strips in the future--the patterns-

At this point the dowels are in place with the ends protruding to receive the wear strips, but before that happens we need to make up from the patterns a matching set that will be used immediately

Ok--take wear strip lets say #1--only you will know which one that is--put a blank wear strip under it with the bottom of the pattern up, and then what I do is place 2 wood screws to hold the whole unit together and in line

If you are in a shop you could use a drilling machine, and carefully pass the unit under it drilling each hole using the holes in the pattern as a guide

This can also be done with a hand auger and end up with an accurate finished product which ever you prefer

As you create each new wear strip be sure and identify its orientation on the guide block

Now you are free to take the two pair that you just created (keep the patterns in a safe place), and gently tap them on the dowels protruding from each side of the guide block

There should be some of the dowel's length protruding past the surfaces of both wear strips, that is good, now taking a good sharp chisel and mallet and with a swift tap shear each one off smoothly

There you have it the guide block with removable wear strips, no glue, no nails in the whole unit and I guarantee that under normal conditions it will wear and wear and not fail, the only thing that might happen is that it could over heat, something that I will discuss later on

enjoy

NH--Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/18/15 02:47 AM

hello everyone tonight

Now you might say we are done with the guide block but not yet----------

We have constructed the guide block with its removable wear strips, and we have established that it is in its proper position directly above the barrel wheel\early turbine, some call it a rose wheel--whatever--, the centre of it directly over the centre point of the off set crank, it also will do all its work between two vertical posts, that have had their opposing corners removed creating a sufficient space for the wear strips that are 4" wide and that guide the guide block in its upwards and downwards movement without the main part of the guide block touching at any point anything that would mean certain failure, so here we have it the guide block can move freely, relying entirely on the guiding strips

These two channels where the wear strips are moving in need to be backed up with metal plates both on the strips edges and outer faces, just another part of the whole scheme of things, and let me clarify one thing--these metal plates are attached to the channels not to the wear strips

Well have to go now

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/19/15 03:03 AM

hello everyone tonight


Sorry I had to go so quickly last night but anyway I will try and carry on some of the technical issues associated with this unit

Now we have the guide block sitting in its proper position but there is one issue left to review and that is how the guide block is contained there

well it is simple but maybe not so simple, nothing about these old mills are really simple, but appear that way to an untrained eye

So here goes---securing the guide block in its position firmly but not too firmly to create friction problems--this is how it is done

In front of the unit wooden guides are created, (1) on each side

These guides are about 6" wide fairly thick 3" and are made of white oak and are 3" longer than the stroke of the offset crank which is 18", making them 24" in total length

Now these bear against the front edge of the wear strips, and are also sheathed with a metal plate, right where the wear strips work

Here is where the fun begins, they have to be suspended there securely, and be able to be adjusted up against the wear strips in increments that approaches only enough room for a light coating of lubricant--

well here is how that was accomplished

Lets create a few short forms to identify parts

"Wear Strip Guides" will now be identified by "WSG" which will separate them from other guides and strips associated with this whole unit--I hope that you are following me--

"Wear Strip Guide Supports" will now be "WSGS" --these are very unusual shaped individual units--for tomorrows discussion

hope you are enjoying this conversation and maybe be alittle in awe of the old millwright's book of technical tricks

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/15 02:44 AM

hello everyone tonight

These 4 Supports (WSGS) Are very unusually shaped units---2 on each side of the unit

These are manufactured out of a solid block of oak that would measure about 8" wide --4"thick, and for now about 20" long--this is going to get difficult to describe but I am going to try--

Laying it on the work bench on its flat side, you will lay out an "L" shape--The long leg of the "L" will be 2.5" thick and the short leg 6" thick--

You can rough the shape out , I advise you if you are using a band saw and are coming up the long segment to make a nice rounded corner as you turn along the short segment, this will give the whole unit strength against shear failure along grain lines in the wood

Now as we move forward a little finish work is in order--using hand tools chamfer (all) the corners of the long part, and follow around only on the top of the short leg

I personally like to see additional rounding on the top of the short segment to give it a pleasant appearance, and the rounding should be sanded and finished nicely--the rounding about a 3" radius is recommended--

Now on the end of the long segment there should be a small amount of tapering, because this long part will be passing through the vertical timber support, and out through the opposite side, and this slight tapering will facilitate its movement when the time comes

Now comes another tricky part and will require diligence on the part of the person doing the work--this is not for the faint of heart for sure--you will see--------------

enjoy

Richard--NH---
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/15 02:47 AM

hello everyone tonight

Just have to back track a bit here for clarification purposes

above in the laying out of the "L" shape I meant to say "the long leg is 2.5" wide (instead of thick), and the "short leg 6" wide (instead of thick")--you probably understand that the piece of material we are working with is already 4" thick

Sorry about that--trying my best

Now the tricky part--let us take a look at what we have now --we are looking at roughly an "L" shaped part with a long end 2.5" wide and 4" thick rounding into a short end 8" wide and 4" thick, we will be working with the short part and the underside surface

Now we should know where we are--it is on this surface we will be laying out and shaping a Dovetail the full length of its surface--this dovetail will be heavy in construction--roughly 1.5" on its flat surface and no less than 3\4" wide where it intercepts with the new surface--this means that a fair amount of ingenuity, work and skill will be taking place to create this important part, and there are 4 of them to create!!!

Now lets fast forward ahead a little--say we have them all done and now what--well on the outer surfaces of the WSG's eventually there will be dovetail mortises to accept the dovetails we are creating, I believe (hopefully) that you are starting to get the broader view of what we are creating, having said that, and if your work is of good quality the "L" shaped support's dovetails should slide snuggly into place and be ready for the next step

would anyone out there with sketch up or a similar sketching tool be prepared to venture a picture of what I am creating for everyone to see

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/15 02:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

I thought that if I could entice someone to venture a sketched model it would be really great for those looking in--I am sure someone out there could put forward a model we could compare eventually against the original one--would anyone like to comment?

Anyway back to the job at hand--------------------

I would like to comment right here that I am sure many out there are saying "wow" that is a lot of work, my rebuttal would be that once created this unit will probably be around for 100 years or more, try and match that up with anything modern to do the same job

I would like to compare some of these hand made parts to the wood lignum vitae bearing supporting the runner in an 1860 water turbine, spinning at 125 rpm's, just nothing modern is better------they just run and run--no maintenance--

to proceed I would take the unit from one side with everything in place --the 2--"L" shaped bracket's dovetails, slid into place, in the dovetail mortises on the vertical WSG's--now with that done lay the whole unit out on a good work table

well have to go now

enjoy

NH--Richard----
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/28/15 07:39 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well Merry Christmas to everyone and may you have a prosperous and great new year-------------------

Just to finish this project before the new year starts-----------

with the whole unit laid out before you carefully measure the distance between the centre of the long tails of the "L's" and plot how far the mortises for both of them need to be from the wear strips--when that is done proceed to create two mortises right through the vertical post large enough for the size of the long tails of the "L's" to pass through easily, and out the opposite side,

Once that is done for both sides of the guide unit, there should be 4 mortises --2 on each side--mark where the tails exit , remove and create on each long tail a mortise to accept a long narrow wedge, I am saying roughly 12", tapering from 1\2" to 3" and about 3\4" thick material--

reinsert the units (both sides),together with their corresponding vertical strips, tap the long narrow wedges in, pulling up the unit snuggly against the wear strips on the guide blocks--that is good enough for now

Only one thing left to do before moving on-----

Now let us look objectively at the whole unit from the front of the guide block, you should see the guide block with its wear strips, held in place with the "L" shaped blocks and their matching verticals

now in order for the verticals to not move towards each other during operation, 2 pieces of 7\8" by 3" hardwood acting as spreaders are attached horizontally to these verticals, one about 6" down and the other 6" up on the face surface of the verticals, bore 2-- 1\2" holes right through these horizontal pieces and into the verticals--place a dowel in each hole and leave protrude slightly for removal when necessary in the future

Well this has been quite a process, a challenging one I might say and in my opinion not for everybody to attempt, what it does do though is to remind one about the hurdles that were overcome in creating without modern technology a long lasting unit that with only minimal upkeep and surveillance outwear their modern counterparts

enjoy

NH--RICHARD

--see you in 2016--
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/05/16 01:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

just felt like moving ahead with the description of the Mulay mill,s power source and linkages, but for starters you should crack open the water gate just enough to start the horizontal turbine rotating at approx. 50 rpms.

this procedure is a description of the breaking in process of the new guides

with everything rotating pour liberal amounts of heavy transmission oil preferably #90 and tighten up the guides until the heat is noticed

see you tomorrow night

Richard NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/16 02:38 AM

hello everyone tonight

sorry for having to rush away last night but that's life I guess--

Tightening up the vertical guides entails driving in the long wedges on the reverse side of the vertical supporting timbers, we created these fasteners back a few entries or so

As I commented you continue to tighten until you can detect heat when you touch the replaceable guide strips

While we are in the process of wearing in this unit it may be necessary to, and I strongly recommend slightly loosening one of the vertical supporting timbers, and tighten the wood wedges top and bottom to crowd this timber and its metal wear strip against
the side or edge of the slowly moving saw guide unit.

Well we are nearing the end of chat about the description, manufacturing, installing, and the fine adjustment of the power linkages leading up from the offset crank on the horizontal barrel wheel, and I hope everyone followed along, I did my best, but may have omitted or did not describe adequately some of the finer points, just ask and we will try and clear up any items of interest

There needs to be some discussion about the rotation direction of the turbine, and I will cover this important point before we move ahead

How many out there believe that the rotation direction of the turbine is important? like to hear from you

enjoy NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/16 03:15 AM

I'm sure it is, but you'll need to educate us about the "why".....

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/16 02:05 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Jim --thanks for your comment

You know I've have been fortunate to have had the opportunity to work on the repairs and twice on the full replacement of the power source (turbine box) and the 12" oak axle, which passes through the box and exits on both sides, supported there on large split oak bearings

I might say right here that there is a tendency for the bearing
on the off set crank side to wear at approx. twice the speed of the opposite bearing due to the wear and tear of the cutting action which comes from the cutting, jerking, and spinning of pitman and the saw blade

Now to get back to business --rotation direction of the turbine--

Well, I hope that at this point you have a grasp of how a horizontal barrel wheel works, but for those that do not it entails a hollow wooden box, circular on the inside, that is enclosed with iron collars that have cups that were moulded into them during the manufacturing process in a foundry

These collars run very close to the edges of the box to contain the pressure of the incoming water from the head race

as the water exited the box it struck the cups and rotated the shaft containing the offset crank in the opposite direction

That is an explanation of how the turbine works in a very brief description, but now the question of which direction of rotation is correct and why does it matter

Well it all boils down to this, the mill will work with the turbine rotating in either direction but very damaging wear will occur when the rotation is wrong, on the guide block above the turbine.

A detailed explanation is for another night,

Well have to go now

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/16 02:41 AM

hello everyone tonight

here is the best explanation I can give hope you can follow along--

viewing the turbine from the side opposite the crank as it is running counter clockwise, you will notice that the pitman on the down stroke pulls the guide block back against the metal guides set solidly in the vertical supporting timbers, giving the guide block good solid and steady support

As the turbine rotates on the up stoke, the pushing force is on the set up that contains the guide block in its channel, really not designed for anything else

So lets review things under actual working conditions--

Say we are into a heavy cut, slowly working through a 36" cut in a pine, the mill and its equipment is straining to move the blade downwards on the cut, the mill is up to working speed of 100rpm's, full water flow through the turbine (about 2000 gallons a minute)

as the pitman moves down at this speed, along with the kinetic energy of the weight of the blade, pitman, the two spinning cast collars each weighing approx. 90 lbs. the weight of the oak axle, with its cast iron offset crank also right in there at80 to 90 lbs., and let us not forget the water pressure that comes in at about 8 lbs. per sq. inch pressing against the surfaces of the containing cupped collars, you are working with a rather slow moving machine but with a lot of torque

All this energy is expended against the guiding block on the down cutting stroke, and needs a solid surface to glide along against

All that is needed is to contain things on the up stroke ie: lift the pitman, and the blade, which sure contains some needed force, but only a fraction of what is needed on the down stroke

You can see I am sure why the turbine has to run counter clockwise to ensure that the main forces on the guide block, act against the proper support

It would be very easy during a complete rebuild of the turbine and axle units to install the cupped collars in reverse, if you had no previous knowledge of the mechanics of the mill's operation

Even installed properly, and everything adjusted tightly, at maximum speed and full cut it makes you wonder how everything really holds together like it does

It always amazed me as you started up the mill and let it idle, how quietly it run, just the sound of the water passing through
and the gentle sliding sound of the guide block and the saw sliding between the upper guides

Well enough for tonight

hope you enjoy our get togethers

I sure do

Richard NH
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/07/16 05:56 PM

I know I sure enjoy listening to you Richard. Your skills and your knowledge, they really need to be recorded. You ought to write a book. In your spare time, y'know. The skill set you've been describing, I think I've heard you describe it as a millwright, it couldn't have been all that common. It seems that there were a lot of mills of all sorts, but there couldn't have been that many people capable of doing what you describe. Was it a traveling trade, going from place to place, getting mills up and running? Not just up and running, but maintaining them. Or did people just learn to do what had to be done? Thinking about all this, it seems there was a time in history when mills of any kind wouldn't have existed. Have you ever studied on the advent of mills and the trade of millwright(ing)? Around here, in southern Ohio, I could take you to dozens of old mill sites. Abandoned over a century ago, they all failed due to the inability to build dams that could live through a flash flood. Again, love listening to you bud. I'm back to hewing after a winter of family problems. Through a complicated family deal, I now possess my grandpa's broad axe. Hafted left-handed unfortunately, and I hate to alter it. Y'know, I've bought five serviceable broad axes at sales and auctions, three of them were hafted left-handed. That seems an awful high percentage. Or maybe we're just different here in the hills of Ohio. Contrary, no doubt about that.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/08/16 03:11 AM

hello everyone tonight

welcome Dave--

I have been waiting for someone to post something to say without reservation that the technical information that I am posting is not going on deaf ears

You touched on subjects dear to my heart--historic mill wrighting and hewing

don't be scared to re handle your Broad axe--if you have a problem I do have instructional videos on the proper way to handle your axe head

I enjoy being able to help those that sincerely need this type of information--and I only recommend creating a handle using hand tools alone

Some handles were created reversible, meaning that they could be inserted into the axe head from either side so that right or left handed workmen could use the same axe--there is a lot of detail that goes along with the proper hanging of an axe head--for starters examine the ones you have --you might just get lucky-----

anyway thanks for coming on board with those very moving remarks I will cherish them

Richard

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/08/16 02:19 PM

I always enjoy reading whatever you have to post, but it is hard to make much of a reply on a stoopid phone. I appreciate the time you put into making your posts.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/09/16 03:21 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Dave Sheppard--also nice to hear from you, and also thanks for the remarks for the good of the order--I appreciate it very much----

You know there are so many aspects to know and appreciate about everything historical, I just noticed a local newspaper article that covers some of the major restorations at UCV--part of the article concerns the replacement off the brick floor in the oven of the bakery there--

it is in the Cornwall standard freeholder I believe--it takes me back a few years ago when as supervisor of restoration there (it seems like yesterday), our division did a complete rebuild of the oven, including the round dome top, the oven holds approx. 100 loaves of bread at one time, and bakes with radiant heat from the interior brick lining--man does a fresh baked loaf taste great especially when it is created using fresh ground whole wheat flour from the 36" flour grinding stone at the mill on site--just to expand this out a little--the mill has 3 runs of grinding stones, clustered around the main vertical drive shaft rising from the 45 hp water turbine--

only one pair of stones are used for flour grinding, the other two are used as follows: (1) for animal feed, and (1) pair as spares

Following the wheat as it arrives at the mill, it is elevated to the 3rd floor, and passes through a machine that removes weed seeds and any other foreign material this machine is located on the 2nd floor--gravity is moving the wheat along--after this machine it passes along to the first or main floor and is directed into centre of the spinning upper stone of the grinding pair (the only one that moves), the bed stone is always stationary and its surface is perfectly level.

Just a bit of technical information here, both stones have many specially formed furrows in their matching surfaces, that carry the ground wheat outwards, these surfaces run so close that they produce flour, but don't touch--very important--this aspect is controlled by the miller who is well versed in how this is attained

I am not a miller but having said that I found out that creating the mill takes a real collaboration of many trades people that include masons, timber framers, millwrights, and in our case a steam engineer to operate the steam engine--I must not forget the lowly carpenter

richer
NH
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/17/16 04:01 AM

OK Richard, you've got me wondering. I've seen millstones, around here they were pretty darn big. More than a few of them got dumped over riverbanks here and there to keep the banks from washing away. I like to canoe, I've wanted to load one up and bring it home many a time. If I could lift one, and if it'd fit in the canoe. They're just too big. So how did the miller keep the stone shimmed up so it didn't touch the one below it. I know the bottom stone was stationary, but that big ol' stone on top spinning around, it seems like it would just grind through anything. Any sort of shim, steel, anything, would quickly get ground away. Did they raise the axle that the top stone spun on? Even then, those stones are so heavy that it seems like it would be a continual job maintaining tolerances. I also seem to remember reading something once about "dressing" a millstone. Do you know if that had to do with cutting the furrows that fed the ground meal out to the edge? I'm attaching a link to a rebuilt local mill that I just love. I think you might enjoy it. The mill has been there for two centuries. It's recently been rebuilt and is back in operation. A labor of love by some really good people. You'd have fit right in.
http://oldmills.scificincinnati.com/ohio_mills_fairfield_rock_interior_page.html
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/16 02:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Dave Mc.

That sure was a nice link, took me down memory lane somewhat-----

One thing that struck me was the bed and grinding stone shown, were fabricated from single pieces of stone

Ours were burr stones, they were manufactured from pieces of this special stone that come from one area in France

let me say one thing about burr stone it is very unusual with shells imbedded along with microscopic air spaces mixed together, this feature along with its unusual hardness creates a grinding surface of sharpness, and cooling that has no rivals

you can tell a burr stone because it has a wide metal band around its perimeter that holds all the segments together, I am not sure but expect that the metal band was heated to a very high temperature in a forge, dropped over the segments and after cooling and shrinking permanently contains the segments

we used carbide tipped chisel hammers to dress the stone's surfaces due to its hardness,-- years ago they used high carbon steel mill picks, especially manufactured to dress burr stones, a good blacksmith could produce these and then heat and sharpen them as required

have to go now will be back tomorrow

enjoy

richard
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/16 01:02 PM

The Hancock, MA, Shakers had burr stones. There is one just visible in the lawn outside the dwelling house. Another was found during excavation of the dam at the Shaker mill in West Stockbridge, MA. A friend of mine has it. I believe the historical society wants to have him restore it.
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/16 11:30 PM

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/25/16 02:32 AM

hello everyone tonight

that is a nice picture of a burr stone's segments, and the steel band that held everything together--thanks for taking the time to post it here, for everyone to see

it is hard to explain the texture of the stone but when it is furrowed and trued, it produced the finest of flour, of course you needed a top notch miller to utilize the operate the mill--needless to say--my father used to say--"you can have the best tools, but if you can't use them properly, the outcome is for naught"

Getting back to the second part of your question concerning the suspension of the rotating upper stone and maintaining its tolerances--this is how that was achieved-----

you have to visualize the setup, the grinding stones sit atop a husking frame, which is a network of timbers, which sits within the mill structure, and is independent of the mill's structure--which means it cannot touch any part of the mill itself, this is important because the vibration of the grinding stones at work would eventually destruct the structure

This husking frame in a mill using a turbine would sit astride the turbine in the basement, with it right in the centre of the framework, and rising from the turbine would be the driveshaft, usually about 4" in diameter, this shafting would rise from floor to floor right up into the attic, and at this point would with the help of bevel gearing redirect the shaft's rotation horizontally usually right across the total attic area

it is up in here that many wooden pulleys of varying sizes would be rotating sending down power to the various floor's equipment using leather belting also of varying widths, depending on the amount of power being expended from the shafting, and of course needed

also up in here would be situated the sack hoisting equipment, a very crude but also very workable and necessary setup---needed to quickly move bags of grain to the top story beginning its eventual movement downwards towards the grinding stones

well have to go now

will continue--more to come--enjoy

Richard

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/01/16 01:59 AM

hello everyone tonight

while we are here in the attic, lets discuss things a bit, because we might not get back here for a while------

THE HOISTING APPARATUS--

really quite crude but works like a charm--lets visualize a round wood shaft about 5 feet long and about 8 inches in diameter.

one end of the shaft has a metal rod of 2" imbedded at least 12 inches into the wood shaft, and protrudes about 6" out from the end--

the opposite end also has a 2" metal shaft imbedded, but fastened in such a way that it is unable to revolve inside the wood shaft --many methods could be used to effect this, so no more said--this shaft also protrudes 16" beyond the end of the wood shaft--the reason for this is as follows:

on this metal shaft is fastened securely a wooden pulley about 24" in diameter and 8" thick\width, leaving some of the shaft protruding beyond the pulley--this will be needed--

now this whole unit is positioned right under and parallel to the rotating attic drive shaft--remember this attic shaft is rotating and continues to rotate as long as the mill is in operation--

let us first discuss the fastening of the wooden shaft's end opposite the pulley--the protruding metal shaft is inserted into a rigid wooden block fastened securely to the structure\building's frame--the hole in the block is of sufficient size to allow the 5' wood shaft to move up and down without binding --

now the other end with the 24' pulley

well enough for tonight
have to go

enjoy

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/02/16 01:47 AM

hello everyone tonight

well let us get this hoisting apparatus up and running----I am sure everyone is wondering how it works --well here we go----

visualize the wooden shaft under the rotating parallel attic shaft--this parallel shaft is about 48" above floor level about 2" in diameter, and at full operating speed is rotating at 100rpm's per min

now we know the one end of the wood shaft is captive in a wood bearing that allows the opposite end of the shaft to raise and lower 12" without binding

the next procedure is to fasten a 6"" pulley to the 2" rotating shaft directly above the 24" wooden pulley--

now the tricky part---remember the end of the metal shaft that protruded beyond the wooden pulley--well now we will be using it--

take a piece of good quality hardwood --3" by 6"--put a small bolt through the end to keep it from splitting, and then bore a hole of sufficient size to slip easily on the end of the shaft--this piece of wood will need to be about 8 feet long and I would taper it to about 3 by 4" on the extreme end

now taking a fulcrum experiment until you can easily raise the wooden shaft, but leaving enough weight so the shaft and pulley will lower downward under its own weight

on the outer end fasten a rope passing it down through a hole in the floor to be easily reached by someone standing at the ground floor door--this can be done with the use of a few small pulleys

now here we are say it is you and you are standing in the doorway you pull down on the rope, it raises the wooden shaft in the attic until it engages the 24" wooden pulley against the 6" rotating smaller pulley--friction does the rest--presto the wood shaft starts to rotate--

finally a larger rope is wound on the wood shaft and passing through a few wood pulleys is directed down to the landing usually in the front of the mill, or the wherever the receiving area is

to finish this scenario--the larger rope is fastened around a bag of wheat, you pull down on the rope, and the bag lifts to the worker on the second storey, who unhooks it an returns it back for another bag and so on----

well have to go

enjoy

Richard

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/02/16 03:42 PM

Is there any facing on the pulleys, or just wood on wood?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/03/16 01:16 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Dave

preferably the larger wheel is wooden, the smaller if not wood and no doubt very well could be a metal pulley due to its size--- its surface should be covered I would use a piece of belting riveted to the metal surface

The larger wheel if not wooden should also be covered with belting

This of course would provide the friction necessary to make everything rotate easily

I forgot to mention that the main hoisting rope would probably be 3\4" manila for wear and safety

thanks for getting back with the question, a good point to bring up for clarification

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/16 01:21 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well the attic situation has been well observed and I think most people understands what happens up in there so lets move to the basement and in particular the water power source we use its an 1865 45 HP Leffel turbine, it is enclosed in a circular metal case about 60 inches in diameter, around the perimeter you will notice numerous openings, which can be closed or opened depending on the position of each one's door.

How these doors are opened and closed, is as follows--each door is attached to a rod that extends to a gear driven collar situated around the bearing that guides the rotating 4" shaft rising from the internal runner

more tomorrow

NH
Posted By: greybeard

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 04/22/16 08:18 PM

I apologize if this shows up as a reply, but I'm new, here and can't seem to figure out how to create a new thread.

I have a 10x10 hand hewn red oak beam about 20 feet long that, due to zoning restrictions I won't be able to use (project killed by zoning)

If there's anyone interested in it you are welcome to call me at 508-816-9540 for details. I'm in Marlborough MA.
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 05/19/16 01:27 AM

Hello Richard, haven't heard from you in a while. You know, the water powered mills weren't just for grain and sawmilling. Water also powered many of the early factories. The water turned pullies that turned belts that turned machinery. And the belting, it was primarily the hides of buffalo. Nowadays, we have all sorts of rubberized materials that are made into industrial belting, but in the late 1800's it was mostly buffalo leather that powered the machinery of America. I'd never really thought of it much before, but I read the following. It made me think.
"After the Civil War (1860-1864) the buffalo also became an important resource for thousands of commercial hunters who needed employment in a time when cash and jobs were scarce. Industrial growth in the United States and Europe during the 1870s was driving demand for machinery belts made of leather, and the extension of railroads after the Civil War made it easier to transport buffalo hides to the industrial eastern markets. Selling of buffalo hides opened up foreign markets in England and Germany, where buffalo leather machine belts were helping factories produce much wanted and needed consumer goods." That's from a website about Texas history, http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/redriver/images/rr-whosebuffalo.pdf
When you hear of the buffalo herds being hunted for their hides, you never really think about what use all that leather was put to. Hope to hear from you, Richard. Me? I'm still hewing cabin logs. I'm to the point where I can hew a 20' white pine log in a little over 4 hours, hew it to a fine finish, but it's 4 hours of hard work. I love it. I think you know what I mean, too.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 05/29/16 02:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi Dave

thanks for coming on board
that was interesting about the buffalo hides, never heard that before but stands to reason because of the great number of them on the prairies and the western USA

cattle hides around here were the big sellers, the long belt we used at UCV to harness the power of the steam engine to the gearing of Bellamy's Mill machinery, came from England, it was 120 feet long 12" wide and 2 ply riveted together--the sections of leather that made up the belt was feathered out and glued--it was put into use 24 years ago and is still in excellent shape yet-our procedure was to soak it well once a year with neetsfoot oil to keep it plyable and preserve it.

as a fleeting mention, I give you an A plus for being able to square a 20 foot white pine in 4 hours, you got to be in great shape, are you using the chainsaw to score --that would sure help

In my book using only axes, that would have been 8 hours of hard work, not many knots either!!, and a few watery blisters to deal with

keep up the good work

NH
Posted By: D_McBride

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/29/16 04:58 PM

Hello Richard, you've got to remember, I'm not SQUARING timbers, I am hewing cabin logs. I only hew them on two sides. The top and bottom of a cabin log is left rounded, that's traditional here in Appalachia.

I've seen a few log homes built with squared logs, most of them constructed with half lap joints rather than dovetail or steeple notching. They were all sided over soon after construction, I think that was the intent of the builders.

In my research of the history of log construction here in southern Ohio, it seems like many, not all but many, of log homes so constructed were built by German Catholic immigrants. I don't know if this is a cultural thing or not. We Scots-Irish didn't have a tradition of log construction, but we took to it quickly. We hewed the logs on two side, leaving the top and bottom of the log rounded. It helped fill the space in between the logs. To further fill the space, chunks of log, splits from the hewing, anything was shoved in between the logs to fill space. That was the chinking. That was all daubed over with clay or lime mortar.

As a quick aside, I have found small little handprints in the lower rounds of daubing on log walls, the children doing their part to construct their home. It always makes me pause and think. Small children, now long dead, working on the same structure I am. That makes me think of one log home, little handprints in the clay and hog hair daubing, constructed by Swiss immigrants before the Civil War. A family named Stalder. They built the finest log home I ever saw. Hewn on two sides, half dovetail notched, doweled and pegged like nothing I ever saw.

Timber frame lean to on the back and timber frame porch in the front, all hewn squared timbers in the framing. Tapered hewn rafters, half lapped and pegged. The people that built that home were craftsmen. I'm just a scots-irish wood whacker in comparison. But I can hew a log, 20' long, on TWO sides in four hours. I'm not a superman, I prefer to take an overnight break between the roughing out and the finishing.

I started out using a chainsaw to score, but I discontinued that after a while. I'd rather just walk down the log, scoring every 6-8" with the axe as I go. I'm not cutting a V-notch all the way to the line, I'm just cutting with the axe, moving along and scoring in the direction I will hew.

No blisters anymore, I'm pretty used to it now. Deer flies tormenting me something fierce right now, wish I could get used to them.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/05/16 02:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Dave that is a first rate couple of paragraph, I didn't realize that you were only doing 2 sides makes quite difference time wise, and the rough hewing technique--not "V" notching

Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/12/16 02:00 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well been recovering here, but checking in on my site regularly

there sure has been many good discussions since I first logged on a few moons ago many wonderful posts by many very knowledgeable people, I hope that the information posted here both by myself and those that took the time to post will be helpful to those that need good direction

I have been helped by many since I first started out in life, but I have to thank my dad who guided me along early in my life, it was he that instilled in me the love of hewn timber, and traditional timber framing techniques--a little hard to deal with as a teenager but sure paid off in the long run for sure

Most of us really who are successful need a good mate and I sure am blessed with mine, a chance meeting one Saturday night, that has now lasted for over fifty years and counting

If any one wishes to open up a dialogue on any subject I am open for the invitation--good luck to all of you in your endeavours--and may the TTRAG continue to inspire many of you to pursue your dreams

The Northern Hewer
Richard Casselman
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/12/16 03:09 PM

Thanks for all your efforts Richard. It was your site that lured me into this site some years back now when things were a little more jumping here. I never can pass on the chance at a good wag, as they say down there in the outback, about using an axe in carpentry work. You have been a unique contributor along the lines I like and there won't soon be another quite the same I, dare say.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/12/16 05:53 PM

Hi Don

Thanks for all your remarks,

I am sure that many enjoyed your comraderie and your free will contributions to this thread

I am sort of losing track of many of you that I have came in contact with throughout the last few year's discussions, but I know you are out there and coming to visit from time to time

I am not feeling well about developments here concerning the closure of my Lutheran church (St Paul's in Morrisburg Ontario)--I did all I could to save it--it is the 4th oldest Protestant church in Canada--founded in 1875--The 2nd oldest is now closed, and it is only a few miles East of Morrisburg at Riverside
Heights--known as St John's --it was founded in 1784

You know what they say --"all good things come to an end"--

Well I have to go now

Richard--NH----------
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/17/16 01:52 AM

hello everyone tonight

well it seems like I have a lot of unfinished business on some of the threads but I will get around to continuing conversation in regards to some of them--right now I am working on a new broad axe handle, for a leftie by the way, he wants it made out of black walnut, had to make a trip out to the tree on the back forty,--- it has some great curvy limbs growing out from the trunk--ideal for a handle needing a strong natural curve right next to the head

He also wants a copy of the axe handle making video that I sell from time to time, it shows the tree that I am referring to above, and then it goes into video detail showing the hands on work as the handle takes shape

He also wants a copy of my Traditional Hewing tape that shows me working, talking and explaining how to use it in a correct and safe manner.. It seems that he wants to try his hand at creating a couple of hewn timbers for his new home, I feel excited about helping him move ahead with his venture

This is a subject with many different and objectional points of view my focus is as always backed up with research that goes with pioneer life here in upper Canada in the early days of settlement. I might say that the pioneers who came here were from a wide spectrum of immigrants from Europe, and that alone speaks a lot about the tools that were saved and donated to UCV as it was formed in the 1960's, as a working museum dedicated to life in the early days.

over the years I have been especially interested in axe handle design, length, sweep, etc. looking at old photographs, and examining existing examples at UCV still solidly placed in axe heads and in storage in the museum one of which is in the Casselman barn, it houses many of these types of surviving hand tools

Anyway I have to go now like to hear from some of you

Richard casselman

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/17/16 11:20 AM

If I knew that lefty I would sell him my recently re-steeled, by the expert tool smid out of France, Bernard Lucas. Some nice Uddeholm steel forge welded on the traditional hewing axe of southern Sweden with its original birch handle beautifully mounted which I have thinned down the way I like it so much. There is little to no finish work on the back saving so much time and effort at the lapping plate, simply hone and go.

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/18/16 12:28 AM

hello everyone tonight

That is a lovely looking blade, but just wondering why you would add a modern tool steel inset to an axe that must have had already a top notch cutting edge, it just doesn't seem right to me, but there must have been a reason

Thanks for coming onboard and looking forward to more conversation

Richard

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/18/16 06:28 PM

I thought I had brought this up before now and it turns out I had, back on page 110 of our conversation where I had posted op a series of pictures of a single final pass made on a stem of sweet chestnut with this axe with the edge reconditioned just after getting my grubby hands on it from out of Sweden. The edge was shot, either completely worn down or having lost its tempering. The smid had a good look at it and with the expert eye determined the steel there had only the potential for a moderate hardness were it to be re-tempered so I decided to have it re-steeled with a suitable steel, the Uddeholm with high carbon content but without the other metal additions which interfere with the sharpening potential.
It's not the only work Bernard has carried out for me on old axes. At the same time he took the peculiar axe known to the locals here as "bandhacke" only this one's a single beveled version and reconditioned it, keeping the original steel bit which turned out being damast steel bizarrely, so that was an unexpected revelation, which you see here below.

all this work not before he had already done another favored bandhack, this time replacing the worthless bit with one of exceptional quality because in that instance not only did he use this same high carbon content Swedish steel for the insert but incased it with unused one hundred year-old axel stock with a beautiful grain pattern visible to the trained eye. Well this axe needles to say is most treasured and a tool also of the highest quality in use and has transformed my whole approach to getting the logs squared up.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/20/16 02:17 AM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for the explanation, I am sure you did the right thing, giving these tools another lease on life--they are lucky tools to have fell into your care

Richard
NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/20/16 02:53 PM

Thanks Richard. Sometimes I think there are to many and it starts to look like a collection around here.
Walnut is a very responsive wood and should make an interesting handle. So far I know of ash, elm, beech, dogwood, birch, hawthorn, um, what's that white one now, Holly, that's it, and now walnut side-axe handles.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 09/29/16 07:15 AM

This is the latest axe for carpentry work I've got my hands go, called bandhacke. I know these are unknown to North American carpenters but maybe in a way it makes it all the more interesting to see what other carpenters from places beyond use.
With this axe I will hew till the line with no margin in front of that point but still keeping to the safe side. This with the intention of saving the edge on the broadaxe for only the minimal finishing/flattening work. If I have made a misstrike with the bandhacke sometimes this will even remain there on the finished surface but that is a rare occurrence.




A fine example with all the classic features and having never been used till I got hold of it out of Austria.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/20/16 03:09 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well winter is fast approaching, expecting our first main fall of snow--that makes me wonder what kind of weather is falling in other regions--

years ago we would be readying the sleighs by getting them out of storage and drawing them on the bare gravel road to brighten up their bottom surfaces

at the same time we would get out our axes and crosscut saws, removing the rust if any had accumulated, and applying a light coat of oil

the next step was to walk to the bush lot and survey where we were going to cut our wood supply and obtain a few logs for lumber and timber

any way have to go now

NH
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/20/16 02:38 PM

We have about six inches of heavy wet snow this morning in western Mass, and it's still coming down, but slowly. No power at the house, and a lot of damage to the trees, especially those too stubborn to drop their leaves in a timely fashion.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/22/16 02:31 AM

hello everyone

Hi Dave
thanks for coming on board--sounds like pretty bad weather you are having--but then probably you live in that zone that can expect just about anything from the weather man.

We are closing in on December, and as I remember times from years gone bye, -20f was usually with us by the 15th, one thing for certain ploughing the fields in mid november was just a thought

We would have been busy battening down the hatches, so to speak--
making sure that anything that could bust from the frost was either emptied or moved to a safe location

Life was quite simple then, no bills, or very few, no luxuries at all, the only thing that we really looked forward to was Saturday night in town, a visit to the library for a book, and hopefully going to the movie theatre

In 42 my dad had just left for employment on the construction of the Alaska highway--I was just 4 years old but remember him leaving--anyone out there that knows what I am talking about?
He was up there for 2 years, in weather down to -50f living in a tent--when he came home he brought army clothing with him--parkas lined with bear fur--felt shoes that reached to the knees that had a rubber boot, man were they ever warm--and those army sleeping bags--down filled, I swear you could sleep right in a snow bank and be warm as toast

While at home mother and us kids continued to keep body and soul together, receiving the odd letter and picture from up there--father standing on the gravel highway with friends

By the way we had no running water, no electricity, and I might add no hospital within 50 miles, might just as well have been 200 because getting there was impossible--the roads all blocked solid with snow, even the main highways were impassible--they tried to keep them open but the machinery could not cope--one good blow would close things right down--they would have to bring out the large snow blower to cut the snow banks back

When things got really bad one person from the neighbourhood would travel with a team and sleighs and pick up supplies for everyone--those were the days when you really needed good neighbours!!--and by the way doctors did house calls especially if you were quarantined with measles or the scarlet fever--one person sick in the family no one could not leave the house until it was lifted

Well great to remininse with everyone

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/30/16 03:01 AM

hello to everyone

Just reviewing my stock of video footage for an inquiry about my post on "tools for sale", it is a great site you should visit it

I have helped many who required help using historic tools safely, namely the hewing axe, and adze, but I think that what amazes many is the thought and skill necessary to take their rough hewn timbers and join them together in a fashion that is strong, accurate, and following practices that were available to the tradesmen, skillful handymen, and just plain farmers at that time.

Remember this point farmers were never just farmers, but possessed skills on many fronts, skills handed down over generations, they could not only handle cattle, but could handle horses, sheep, pigs, chickens, plant crops, manage agriculture practices, preparing proper firewood, manage forests, many were pretty good blacksmiths, acted as vets, could hew timber, prepare timber frames, move whole buildings as required, build roads, served in the regimental forces protecting the homeland when called on, cleared land continuously, in many cases could use dynamite or other explosives safely,

They were mechanics, could become and stay as a strong head of the household, they knew the importance of being and needing good neighbours, how to dig a well for drinking water, butcher animals of all types, as needed,

I guess what I am trying to say to the young men and women of today is to look a little beyond the modern things around, they are ok but a good knowledge of old practices might just serve them well in times of need, I think a wake up call came during the ice storm a while ago that swept through here knocking out power, that in turn brought their world to a stand still

I thoroughly believe everyone should be taught some aspect of survival, it is a life saver in times of need

Here I am rambling on again

Well the new year is once again arriving, lets hope that things move favourably ahead

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/01/17 02:24 AM

Hello everyone tonight

I just had a look back on my last entry on the water powered Mulay saw mill, its barrel wheel, and realized I need to continue working my way up to the cutting blade, its attachments, the log carriage, the upper saw guides, and many of its sensitive intricacies, and settings that will ensure a straight, square edged and useful piece of rough sawn lumber, acceptable for use in the early building trades, and I must say all that was available in many rural areas

What really got me thinking about the mill was a conversation I had recently with my son in regards to the mill and the operation of the mill in regards to the successful sawing of lumber and how it was accomplished on what at first glance appears to be a very rough and crude mechanism by today's standards

let us just look at the business end of the mill, we will deal with the framework that supports the log as it is being sawn, how it is constructed, how it moves accurately in both directions by the stationary vertical blade, as it smoothly moves up and down--imagine this--the saw miller gently opens the penstock admitting water into the barrel wheel, the blade comes to life and begins to move slowly up and then down probably at 25 rpm, idling speed, no sound just the rush of the water in the lower part of the mill, at this point the sliding gate is just cracked open and when needed can be opened to bring the blade up to an operating speed of 125 rpm

Well nice to get back to the mill, hope you enjoy

Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/02/17 02:01 AM

hello everyone tonight

well we have the mill running but for now we will stop the blade and talk a bit about the moving framework that supports the log

this framework is approx. 25 feet long and can accommodate logs 20 feet long and a maximum of 36" in diameter.

on the end of this frame that will be called the tail end is attached a permanent bunk--it never moves out of its position--it measures about 24" wide 10" thick and 48" long

In the centre of this block is placed a slot about 1.5" wide the full depth of the bunk and will penetrate the bunk about 7"

sorry have to go

richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/14/17 11:59 PM

hello everyone tonight

just to continue on with the cutting framework,

"On the opposite end of the framework sits a moveable bunk, quite large I must say and strongly built, it is about 26" wide, 48" long and 12" thick, and is set down between the inside of the saw frame about 2", the reason for this is to keep the moveable bunk centred at all times and in all positions as it is moved to accommodate many different lengths of logs"

"There is a slot cut back into this bunk about 1.5" wide and 16" long, this will accommodate the blade as it moves into this position just clear of the end of the log prior to making a cut"

"We have to cover many aspects of this moveable bunk, so that you understand and can visualize it appearance before we move along"

"try and follow me--looking down at the bunk now you see a large rectangular bunk, with a slot cutting it by 2/3rds of its width, thus removing much of its strength, so to counteract this, on each side of the slot it placed a large wrought iron bolt (1") diameter, well and snuggly set, being drew up with 24" pipe wrenches or equivalent--this will ensure that the remaining section of the bunk that is not cut, will carry the weight of the log as it is loaded or rolled on board"

well have to go

enjoy
Richard--the northern hewer--
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/17/17 02:19 AM

hello everyone tonight

Its been a while sorry-----but lets try and continue a little further--

You know, this old crude mill is pretty interesting, don't you think?, even now as I ponder its intricate parts, it seems even more complicated than when I operated and maintained it--

Well we were talking about the moveable bunk lets continue--

Now we have a general idea about its shape there is one more important aspect, which is the replaceable inserts, on the upper leading edge of the bunk, on which the log to be sawn will rest.

There are 2 of them one on each side of the slot, they are in dimension 4 by 6 inches, bolted and well secured in position, their position being approx. 1.5" apart

These inserts are cut into the upper surface of the bunk allowing enough depth to accommodate wedges for levelling their upper surfaces

Now I say levelling well that is misleading, because a good millwright will understand that under the weight of the log, when one is eventually loaded, the bunk will deflect down slightly, causing a vertical cutting error, so to compensate one must slightly elevate the end of the insert closest to the blade

To facilitate this measurement of squareness pull the moveable bunk ahead until it is abreast of the vertical blade and is situated between the two replaceable inserts

Now placing a square against the blade and on top of the insert, one should observe that the top of the insert is out of level slightly by about 1/8" on the 24" blade of the square

Now this will work for most ordinary logs, but might not be enough for very heavy logs that may cause more deflection in the bunk

well have to go for now

enjoy--like to hear some comments if you are enjoying--

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/18/17 02:13 AM

hello everyone tonight

To round out a complete picture of this bunk, ready to work will consist of the hardware items, that are quite massive and heavy--2 separate cast iron dogs, that are fastened to the moveable bunk, on each side of the slot in the bunk, so that they can be hammered into the end of the log with a wooden commander--the dogs are not easy to describe but I will try--they are shaped in a mirror image of each other--each one shaped like an upside down "u"--the "u", with a spur on the leading top edge closest to the blade--this spur is 2" in height and 1\2" thick of steel and sharpened along its full length using one bevel, the "u" is about 14" in height, with a spread of its legs about 10", and constructed using 1.5" wrought iron stock in the 1800's by a good blacksmith.

The bottom of each leg has an eye with an associated eye and bolt intertwined together for fastening to the bunk, here again there is usually not a thread and nut but rather a slot with a tapered key fashioned into the end of the bolt

Well have to go now

hope you are enjoying
any questions just ask
NH---Richard Casselman UE
14572
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/13/17 02:54 AM

Hello everyone

Again it's been quite a while but things are moving slower in my world now, but just as enthused about the historic world of wood working and fashioning things by hand using old tools.

Before I forget a merry Christmas to everyone, and I hope good health to all as we enter the new year

Over the last while I have been trying to describe the workings of a Muley mill quite a challenging feat I am finding out

Oliver Evans also tried to describe the workings of mills but as I found out some very important information was left out such as how one inserted the wrought iron grudgeons into the ends of wooden shafts using hot lead in such a way that the forces directed on them due to operational requirements did not lead to failure

What I did find out over the years was how smart these old millwrights were and why the working examples survived for hundreds of years!.

Examining early examples of barns in particular one thing that stood out was that the old mills in our area could handle and process logs up to twenty feet in length
That had an impact on our mill at upper Canada village because it mistakingly had been restored to only cut and process sixteen foot logs

One thing that landed in my plate a number of years ago was to refit the mill with a saw frame that could handle logs of a twenty foot length

One thing that led us in this direction was the vertical sawn planking in many of the local barn floors, and the census of that time pinpointed the local mills in operation that used water power as their driving force, and were vertical blade mills

Well it eventually came to be and we began to faithfully process twenty foot logs

I will tell you one thing logs large enough to process four inch by twelve inch by twenty foot planks in length are heavy indeed and made the saw frame groan under their weight

Well I have to go

Richard
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/17 02:25 AM

Hello everyone tonight

I do believe that we have pretty well covered the working apparatus of the mill from the bottom to the level of the saw frame, but I am sure that some small items have not been covered

One might ask just how much water power is required to drive the mill, well as far as we can asertaIn running at full speed which is one hundred and twenty five Rpm a it requires an eight foot head of water and will consume approx twenty two hundred gallons per minute

Getting back to the saw frame and how it functions, well each down stroke of the blade will advance the frame with the log attached approx three eights of an inch, and the top of the blade being slightly ahead and out of the perpendicular. By one half inch allows the log to advance three eights of an inch on the up stoke without scraping the points of the teeth or trying to lift the log.

The up stroke also clears the saw dust still embedded In the cut. On a large log the cut can be in excess of the travel of the blade which is eighteen inches. Nine inches down and nine inches up which gives a total of eighteen inches, cuts can sometimes be twenty four inches in large logs which means that in the centre of the cut clearing the sawdust is a problem so a very slow speed is required to allow the. Sawdust to clear, this brings us to how the Miller can adjust the forward speed of the cut, another topic!,

We'll have to go
Hope to hear from someone who might like to pose a question or say hello

Nh
Richard casselman
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/17 03:31 AM

Hi Richard. Thanks for adding more to the story.

We're hewing new rafters at work and debating the use of the adze in historic hewing. We find no evidence of the adze in our area, but the popular misconception persists.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/17 01:26 PM

Oh, I am with Shepard 100% on this. Never have I seen conclusive evidence, just the fog of conjecture. Some old French timbers fall into the category of raising the possible use of an adz for surfacing, still, I cannot say I am much convinced.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/16/17 02:59 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Thanks for coming on board and introducing the adding question or should I say dilemma

Well I personally never used the adze during the hewing proces, even on small rafters which have a tendency to bounce around and need special support, the adze of course would have been used to shape the cog on the lower end and the half lap on the top, shaping the one lone flat side or the complete tapered squaring on some special rafters was a broadaxe only job and would have been much faster for sure

When you stop to think about it using a scoring axe was by far better and easier to accompany the broadaxe ing process simply because of the necessary change of position to a commodities that tool its shape and handle configuration

AdzIng for sure was used to dress and smooth the hewn surfaces in some instances

Well got to go

Richard
No
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/17 05:35 PM

Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/17 06:18 PM

Boatbuilding?

My argument isn't that an adze was never used on a timber. It is that the typical hewn finish in my part of the country was done only with a broad axe. The misconception is so widespread that people automatically mention adzing whenever you talk about hewn timbers, or hewing.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/17 07:16 PM

This picture is of a millwright, fits nicely with the story from Richard, I was today looking through a folder of old Xeroxed material that was handed to me and found this picture at the back. I agree with you, just because the adze may have been used in some circumstances it does not follow that it was used in other circumstances. Adze use for straight timber work makes no sense to me.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/29/17 03:10 PM

I was just reading closer the caption under the picture, using my reading glasses also this time and now see that while the old codger is in fact a millwright, he was called in to do work on the roof construction of the church in the Hague - better known to the most of you as home to many convicted international war criminals - which is what the photo shows.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/17 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Dave Shepard
...We find no evidence of the adze in our area...


My observation would be, from an appropriate restoration perspective (or reconstruction point of view) Dave's initial observation shared above is very accurate.

If a given region does not present in its historic timber frame architecture the evidence of adz work, then with regards to the given ethos of..."like for like, in means, methods and materials"...the use of an adz would be an unwarranted system, and out of context for said work.

In general, regarding adze work itself...my experience and observation would be it is both a regional, cultural and time period based matter. For some regions and cultures, adz work is the primary finishing method left on timber and plank, with perhaps further refinement with a planning methods within a given wood culture's practice. In other regions (as Dave has shared) the axe (in one of its various forms) is the only system used to shape and/or finish large timber.

Another perspective on the subject, would be the apparent fact, that if adz work was not a common event within some regions, and/or at some time or place in history, then there would not be as many of the tools left in collections as we can find in some areas. Clear evidence that they were employed extensively at times and in certain places...
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/01/17 01:18 AM

There are plenty of adzes in my area, as well as many rafter and joist reductions. I also see where timbers that need a little adjusting are possibly reduced with an adze, such as girts that are a touch deep. I also see floor planks that are adzed to thickness only at the floor joists.
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/03/17 11:42 AM

Yes, I love to grab for the adz whenever there is the need.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/17 05:26 PM

They do indeed have (most certainly) have a place in our work...even today!! Not a skill to be left forgotten by any of us...if we are to practice fully our craft ...I most surely agree! I too love grabbing one of the many adz in whatever iteration.

I would add, for those that have (and can if possible) getting there hands on some of the Eastern European, Middle Eastern and Asian style tools of these forms...be it ax, adz of spear plane...

For me, they are the most effective and refined for "modern interpretations" of the heritage folk style wood shaping systems...
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/19/17 07:56 PM

hello everyone tonight

good discussion, not to be found easily at any other site

I very much agree that the use of adzes were wide spread mainly because of the number left behind from those eras

there was a much implanted skill of use and not everyone had the skill but possibly the desire to use one like one seen it used in a family setting or from observations of it being used, it use seemingly to be viseably easy but not really so

great new year to all

NH richard
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/17 08:59 AM

You are correct Richard, this is the only place for a good hashing over of these topics on internet. My impression, subjective as it is not having really given this topic the attention it deserves by any means, is that the adzes I see, and they are not uncommon in my area, all seem similarly dated, I don't know, coming from a time within the last 150 - 200 at the outer limit years. That is I don't remember ever seeing an adze substantially older than that - pre-modern adzes excepted like those bronze ones. Never seen them depicted in pre-photography period pictures or lithographs ect... and yet again at work this weekend I overheard talk of adze use in squaring up timbers. As far as I am concerned such talk is really the extent of this use, nothing more than a fairytale. Could be I'm wrong but it would sure be handy to have seen evidence behind these whisperings of adze use as a common means of working on timbers like we're discussing here.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/17 09:10 AM

Jay may jump in pointing out Japanese prints - I am familiar but know nothing of a time-frame - commonly showing adze work like we are referring to here. Be that as it may it only begs the question why there are no corresponding representations coming out of the European/American scene.
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/20/17 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: D Wagstaff
...nothing more than a fairytale. Could be I'm wrong but it would sure be handy to have seen evidence behind these whisperings of adze use as a common means of working on timbers like we're discussing here.


One observation about "adz work" can be a very possible indicator toward whether or not the individual sharing the information has ever actually employed this family of tools to any great capacity whatsoever?

Simply put, adz work, from almost every culture known, exist strictly as a finishing tool...be it lithic or of the iron age. Though there is evidence that lithic adz may have been more of a work horse tool that others? Even when working smaller stock material, outside the realm of timber framing, the ax, in all its many permutations, is the undefinable workhorse of stock removal...While the adz is usually only one of the finishing tools, perhaps to be followed by others...

Originally Posted By: D Wagstaff
Be that as it may it only begs the question why there are no corresponding representations coming out of the European/American scene.


It really isn't surprising (at least to me) that we don't see...most...of what we perform within the vintage skill sets of any craft; be it timber framing or others arts/crafts ever being well documented or "represented," in citation of any form.

This is a common talking point accross a myriad of fields that examine traditional skill sets. From Cultural/Social Anthropologists to Historical Interpreters...the aspect that is too often overlooked and/or not at all by lay folk...is the substantiation that we have conservatively only about 30% of what Traditional Knowledge Holders had. Through history (and even today) much of this is only passed on through oral traditions and experiential event of those learning. What little we see in whatever manner of citation, is quite often interpretive at its very best, and not an accurate depiction of either means, method or material utilization. We have lost much...and relic illustration, or even a 3rd party observer within literature, is a poor example or proof of activity...
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/17 01:43 AM

You have to love a little adze work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRsWoUKg8to&t=11s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_nx8uwto5M
Posted By: Dave Shepard

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/21/17 06:43 PM

Excellent demonstration of adze use. Not sure what was going on with the second video, I only got sound when I played it, but that may have just been a glitch on my end.
Posted By: TIMBEAL

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/17 06:48 PM

Dave, I was cutting some laps on the ends of clabboard siding. You don't really need the sound, very aluminum sounding on that staging.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/24/17 02:35 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Real Christmas weather here, would have been welcomed in the days gone by, l was just telling my great grand children about winters of long ago here in the country, it is hard for them to grasp how it was then, no tv, no cell phones, no electricity, no snow plows, hardly anything for Christmas .

Really there was no money and to tell the truth none was needed, we hunkered down, no bills coming in nothing needed paying, we lived out of the cellar, and we lived well and healthy, potatoes, meat frozen solid by the cold hanging in the drive shed, preserves from the cellar, we walked to school, and then home

Speaking of school then, it was a one room building with eight grades, a big pot bellied stove at the rear, when I went many moons ago there was only six children going, the teacher bless her heart will never be forgotten a wonderful soul

The Christmas concerts were special affairs the blackboards were decorated with coloured chalk the images were usually rural life, sleighs, horses, dogs, farm Animals, children skating on ponds, and you know that is exactly what life consisted of then

One experience I remember vividly was how the fields flooded and then froze solid meaning you could go for miles and gather up the other neighbourhood kids of all ages, the older ones looking out for the younger ones, everyone,s house was open for warming up if needed, one time in particular we ended up in a flooded low lying bushed area the trees spaced so that we could circle around in the light of lanterns hung strategically , what a wonderful time, so much healthier than today

But I must say I am enjoying central heating now along with running water hot and cold, and I must say the Internet which I am now using to be with you guys and gals, you all are wonderful, and you know we cannot turn time back but we can remember, I en joy sharing my remembrances and experiences with y'all ,

I realize there are many parts of the world that needs help, I hope that peace comes, but probably won't for many, but I do pray for that to happen

Well I have to go but before I do merry Christmas to everyone and may next year bring happiness and may you get back at your many projects whether they be historical or otherwise, and don't forget to try and help someone who needs it

Nh richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/18 03:01 AM

hello everyone tonight

well I made it through Christmas, into a new year and new adventures, and probably a few new projects to boot-

Mr Barclay picked up his broadaxe a few days ago, complete with a new wild cherry offset handle, it came out real nice I think, I finished the surface using broken glass as a smoother, he was amazed at the texture of the surface, and I suggest that it is one technique that you might try if you get the opportunity and the right project to boot.

The handle was created from a naturally crooked limb, and i split it from a section a few inches longer than I needed, in this case 36 inches, and about 12 inches in diameter, allowing me enough room to avoid the centre.

The split was done quickly using 6 old axe heads, inserted stategically along the split as it progressed

the rough blank that eventually emerged was approx 3 thick and 4 inches wide, and exhibited the unmistaken curve just about 6 inches from the end

One thing that you need to ascertain before starting to shape the handle is if he or she is right or left handed, when they are using an axe not a pencil, sometimes a right handed person will chop left handed eventhough they write right. Sometimes people can comfortably chop either right or left

Well most everyone can shape the handle , but be careful not to put too much or not enough curve, i suggest 3 inches off the flat of the blade, and the finished length should be about 29 inches overall

well got to go

richard
NH
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/18 04:20 AM

Northern Hewer, you are indeed a treasure. This is my first post in this forum, and I just wanted to say that your description of the Christmas of yesteryear strikes home. Though I am much younger than you, I had the occasion to pass by an older friends' house this evening. Bruce and his wife are about 80. They, along with others with whom I have spoken, paint a picture of the Winters of their youth similar to your own. They are living in a cabin with their Christmas tree still up because they love the season so much.

As an aside, nothing brightens a cabin so much as a Christmas tree. (In my opinion), which is why I plan on building one with reclaimed hewn logs.

Thank you for the tip on the axe handle. I have several axe heads and other rescued tools that require my attention. I am looking forward to getting to them and also to reading yours and others posts.

Cheers!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/18 01:34 PM

Hi Nick

It is a pleasure to read your post, and to know that there are those that enjoy my posts, I know that you will be successful in your ventures, and someday your youth will be enjoyed by those around you

If you need any further help I will be glad to be there in that regard

Richard
NH
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/26/18 08:46 PM

Thanks Richard!

It's been great and informative reading through some of the older threads. After long thinking about it, I finally got my first taste of timber framing recently, and have been bitten by the bug to do this hard.

I just know I want to keep doing it and not stop--a familiar story, I am sure, around here!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/18 03:56 PM

hello everyone tonight

I just thought that I might expand out on handling axes in general because of nick`s mention of the several axe heads that he has that require his attention

creating a unique handle used to be handed down from generation to generation in the form of a handle pattern usually stored on a flat board, that would hang in a safe spot somewhere on the farm or premises

this pattern would accurately portray the sweep of the body of the handle, this is usually the part extending from the flat area entering the head to just before where the handle curves sharply down at the opposite end to create a comfortable grasping point for either the right or left hand depending on one`s swinging preferance.

The final touch to the handle would be the carved head on the handle`s end, this is sometimes referred to as a `fawn foot`
or `knob`, many variations have survived, and usually are saved so it can be reproduced accurately.

The sweep of the handle, and the final turning down at the upper hand grasping area, are very important, and when one has used a particular handle style for a number of years, and something happens to require a re handling to take place creating a new one with as similar curves and lengths, and I might say feel,like size of the grasping areas,to include how your hand and fingers feel as you grasp it to begin work

We always created a handle in our spare time, like winter, and laid it away to cure and be ready to go in case an accident happens right during a very busy wood harvesting season
or in the spring when the fire wood is being split and stored.
this final time is a very dangerous time and many handles were sadly cracked or worn away near the axe head.

Introducing a new member of the growing family into wood harvesting was another dangerous time for axe handles due to over strikes and other learning curves

I hope this helps those that are endeavouring to create their own unique handles, I have yet to see a good modern handle that can fill the need of a dedicated woods man

I created some instructional video a few years ago for a gentleman in Montreal who had broke his family`s hewing axe`s handle and was desperate for help to create a new one.

A handle for a hewing axe is definitely more challenging and I worked with him using instructions from afar n the form of a video, the whole episode came out well and I was pleased

enjoy



Richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/27/18 04:32 PM

hello everyone tonight

I just might mention that I do help, and have enjoyed helping many over the years repaired axes as well as their other treasured tools as well as learn the old crafts, that need special skills.

I realize that there are many out there who are also quite accomplished in this field, I take my hat off to them, and I enjoy their posts

My skills have originated from 3 generations of very skilled woodworkers in my family, some of who worked in the upper Ottawa Valley logging camps, and the traditions have been handed down from generation to generation

I have further information in the tools for sale`topic if you care to visit it

enjoy

NH
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/28/18 10:22 AM

Recently I re-handled my broadaxe from a piece of wood handed off to me - mistake No. 1. In the end what I got was useless because these angles were off or maybe just not suited to my way of work. You see how the line of this grip is more or less parallel to the edge, when what is needed (yellow indication) is the handle that opens up the angle between edge and grip by 5 or 6 .

On the other hand the off-set came out pretty much how I like it, which is to say, a minimal of curving and just the right point of articulation at the knuckle.



Of course this is an axe of a different order than that Richard and his Canadian colleagues were using.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/18 05:10 PM

hello everyone tonight

Thanks for posting the axe and handle pictures along with some accompaning dialogue

There is more offset than I am used to but it seems to be built right into the helve of the axe head

For me it would take some getting used to, to master its use

One thing that I do think is unique is the square aperture where the handle exits the axe head

thanks for posting
richard
NH
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/18 07:06 PM

Northern Hewer, I never heard that a template was kept to keep a nice axe handle design alive, though that makes perfect sense. I intend to base my future handles off the ones I currently have and like best.

The finest quality handle I have seen on the commercial market is from househandle.com I purchased one when first getting into restoring axes and was exceedingly pleased with the quality finish when it arrived.

However, I prefer the connection that comes with a tool in creating your own handle.

Do you have a link to the video you created regarding the hewing axe handle? That would be neat and informative to see.
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/30/18 07:09 PM

DWagstaff, That is a gorgeous axe. Thank you for posting.
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/31/18 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: northern hewer
hello everyone tonight

Thanks for posting the axe and handle pictures along with some accompaning dialogue

There is more offset than I am used to but it seems to be built right into the helve of the axe head
Yes, the angles are largely determined at the forge. My handle takes its own way rather than following on from the lines of the axe head itself.
For me it would take some getting used to, to master its use

One thing that I do think is unique is the square aperture where the handle exits the axe head

It is fairly angular there which is what I like because it simplifies fitting the handle. Often on the outside side of such sockets there is even a ridge along its length which gives a tangible representation of the axe handle axis.
thanks for posting
richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/18 02:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

Hi NIck

Thanks for coming on board

I am sorry to say I am not of the generation that is compatible with links etc, but I did put together a video a while back that shows me as I was creating an offset handle for an axe head that was in need of a new handle

As I mentioned I just finished an offset handle for a friend, Mr Barkley, it took me a while but it came out beautiful, and I used a blank split from a wild cherry section that he supplied from his bush property, it had the nice natural curve, where the strength is required in the handle next to the head.

The handles have to take into account a person`s natural preference, either right or left, and our axe heads here in North America are created so that they can be handled to exit either the right or left side of the head

I might say that I have used Black Walnut in many of my handles over the years, it creates a very unique handle indeed

If you are interested in the video see more details in Tools For Sale section, I call them teaching tools from afar, because I have supplied help in video form for many topics including adzing, hewing, timberframing, building raisings, like period barn frames, driveshed frames, smoke houses, tinshops, historic millwrighting, especially vertical blade waterpowered saw mills, using barrel wheels or rose wheels as a motive power, the last is my favorite, as you can probably tell from some of my previous posts

Water powered Grist Mills are also interesting, as well as woollen mills

Thanks for coming on board

enjoy, and come back
Richard
NH
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/18 06:19 PM

Hi Richard,

Absolutely. I wish I had done so sooner and am glad to be here.

Thank you for the information on the instructional videos and axe handles. I had not realized the videos were for sale.

Currently, I am trying to work out a way to get to a TF class, but it may be a while yet with my schedule. In laying out timbers for my first frame, I realized how central an understanding layout is to the craft. Truthfully, that is what led to me the Guild and the forums.

It has been edifying reading through the old threads to see that others have had some of the same questions.

I have found the forum a gold mine of information for tact in handling problems or questions that inevitably arise. I recently purchased Timber Framing Fundamentals from the Guild and am working through it on my down time in the AM and PM.

That said, I certainly hope to see your videos and learn from them.

Again, glad to be aboard. I certainly enjoy yours and others' posts!

Best, --Nick
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/04/18 03:01 AM

hello everyone tonight

hi nick and others

you mention layout------

hmmm--layout, and then there is really layout using rough hewn timber, twisted timber, over sized timber, under sized timber, no measuring tapes, no nails, or very few, no front end loaders, no cranes, no transits, no fancy blueprints, no skill saws,, no electricity, but in the end the braces have to fit, the tenons on the twisted timber, have to enter the mortises with a nice sliding fit, the newly formed trusses have to be hoisted up their positions, sometimes 25 to 30 feet above the ground, each bent as it is formed has to be an exact copy of the previous on, unless its position indicates necessary changes, like the wall, like the central aisle, with large doors--

here i am rambling on but just reminiscing from days gone by when the head framer faced the above challenges, it reminded me of many church frames i have studied each one had to span 45 feet or more without central support, but the catcher is the sometimes the gothic arch of the interior ceiling, needed to be built into the truss timbers, what beautiful work!

one church in particular, had been created with one half the weight of the spire resting on the first truss, what the framer did was to create a railroad truss to give extra support, not noticeable from the interior of the church

most churches created walls of stone and brick just to support the spires, and then as i studied the trusses, what beautiful work the hewers did, and can you imagine the trees that produced 10 by 12 timbers 45 feet long and no wane edges that i could see for the bottom truss chords, and the wall plates 65 feet long 8 by 8`s my, my--i can see those trees falling, and teams of men hewing and scoring in a steady rhythm where they fell, and then transporting them to the constructing area, i really don`t think that there would be room for measuring errors on the part of the framer

my father (Ross) one time said to Robert Lecorre the cabinet maker at UCV --you know Robert, when you make a mistake you just heave it in the trash can, but what do i do with a 30 foot timber cut too short by 3 inches--

well have to go

enjoy

richard
NH
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/18 01:44 AM

Hi Richard and everyone.

That is a great story about your dad's hewing dillemma.. I wonder...whatever happened to that timber? Did they find a way to make it work, or did they cut it into lesser parts or something else...?

I was paging through Tedd Benson's second book yestereve with my 11-year-old daughter. Interestingly, she queried if some of the bare frames were churches. while most if not all the pictures are of houses, it's neat that some design cues for grand homes are also found in or take their inspiration from sacred architecture. There are several churches in the vicinity that have pleasantly distracted me with their timber trusses and the corresponding thoughts of how they were constructed and lifted into place, not to mention the stories of the craftsmen behind the buildings.

Speaking of logging camps, down here in this part of the Appalacian Mountains is a state park in West Virginia called Cass Railroad State Park. Perhaps you have been there?

One has to work to get to it, but it is one the most fascinating, beautiful, and outright cool places I have been. While it is more of a monument to the days of logging during the days of the steam engine, I am sure there was a good bit of hewing that occurred nonetheless, as it is so entirely remote.

The other neat aspect of the park are the working steam Shea locomotives that take you up the mountain, the same ones or type that took the logs down. Some of the locomotives are from Alaska, I believe, and were used for logging there as well. The wilderness at Cass is basically unsullied and the visit to the camp town allows you to see, to some degree, the experience through the loggers' eyes. Operations continued there until 1962 or so and the place just hasn't changed very much.

To your original observation, Richard, I think it is amazing how the craftsmen of yore fit and hoisted their frames into position...and with few of the tools available to us today. Reading about their work is inspiring for me as a craftsman and propels me to want to continue further in the craft of woodworking.

I hope you all are staying warm, wherever you might be. Here in Virginia we are expecting snow, turning into ice, turning into rain overnight. I am anticipating being able to stay home from my regular job and thus get a day in the shop.

Cheers

NickM












Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/18 02:33 AM

Hi Nick and others looking in tonight

Well I guess we share similar weather patterns, it has been unseasonaly cool here, it must be because our climate is warming up,or so we are told

Nick you were wondering about what happened to those timbers I was referring to, well here we go--hope you all enjoy a little trip back in time--

Hewing timber is at best trying to create as accurate as possible sectional timber of sizes and lengths that are needed for the job at hand, it might be a small or large building, and sometimes was dictated by the timber types and sizes growing on you own property, or maybe in the case of a church from various properties

One thing for sure the framer whose responsibility was to mould these timbers into a strong straight and true framework eventually becoming whatever building that was needed

Usually the timbers were close to the dimensions needed, but sometimes they lacked a little meat here and there, especially in the case of long timbers, became quite noticeable when the framing began in ernest , and chalk lines were struck along their lengths to position seatings for many vertical and horizontal braces and girts

Ir was not uncommon to indent seatings an inch or more so all the intersecting timbers and posts along the chalk line would have support beyond relying strictly on the tenon

In this regard I always instructed the hewing team to work oversize a bit, and try for accuracy, even then after curing, and storing, timbers would sometimes accept natural curving and twisting, this is to be expected and accepted

What we did as we rolled out the next timber in the framing order was to carefully position it in the framework to best utilize its natural tendencies , and if necessary re hew out some bad bows or twists to bring the seating-s depths to a manageable margin and straighten up the outside face, which is quite important

Now we have been talking about all new hewn timbers, but sometimes the framer was handed many recycled timbers to work with

I have to go now
I have more and will be back

enjoy

richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/08/18 02:59 AM

Hello everyone looking in tonight

I would like to return to last night`s post, and mention that as the timbers cure they also shrink and allowances should be made during the hewing process for this shrinkage so that you still end up with a full size timber to work with

Hewing is notoriously better accomplished when the logs are green, whereas many in the timber industry to day use cured`stable timber and witness less shrinkage, and I might say far less problems

The payoff though is to witness a naked frame fashioned from hand hewn timber, standing straight and true in the morning light--this was my experience one morning after we raised a
three bay driveshed, what a beautiful sight indeed

the other aspect was to notice how proudly it seemed to stand there, compared to the 100 year old example we were faithfully copying, it was like a very old man or woman rising up in their youthful glory, and to witness what it really looked like when it was originally framed--I was proud to rescue a very rare example of an outbuilding, and preserving it for future generations--and by the way the example now has disappeared

well have to go now

enjoy as much as i do telling

richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/18 03:05 AM

hello everyone tonight

Using recycled timber---as promised----

During the mid 50s here a dramatic event took place here near were I live--The St. Lawrence Seaway Project--

Undertaken, To enable ocean vessels to sail unabated directly to the upper Great Lakes, from ports all over the world--50 years in the planning by the U.S., and Canadian Gov`ts, and 4 years in its making---

For this to happen unfortunately hundreds of the earliest Farms, towns, cemeteries, apple orchards, businesses, older canals, homes, barns, outhouses, even the largest living elm of the time standing near Cornwall Ontario had to be cut.

Every structure had to be demolished so a 22 mile lake could be formed, and a waterway formed to overcome the natural barrier of the Long Sault rapids would disappear

The lake not only was deep enough for shipping but but many millions of watts of electricity was produced by the escaping waters of the lake

Now as the planning of the seaway took place fortunately it was recognized that our early heritage was disappearing along with many very early buildings--homes, barns outhouses and famous battle site like at Crysler Farm where the American forces bent on capturing the then young fledgling British nation was on the line--the date 1813--

Now that date meant that the disappearing buildings and properties, contained timbers, lumber, and architecture, hardware, furniture, implements, churches, and just plain old memories of years gone by, that had by some way to be saved for generations to come.

Upper Canada Village became the depository for this early history, and to that end, hundreds of truckloads of timbers, lumber and even whole buildings, came slowly and steadily from the demolition sites numbering several towns, and hundreds of farms

These truckloads especially of the lumber and timber ended up in large fields adjacent to the UCV construction site

You probably can see where this history lesson is going but it is for another night or 2 to unravel

enjoy

richard
NH
Posted By: NickM

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/09/18 04:08 AM

Hi Richard and everyone. I am enjoying your tale telling immensely. I am looking forward to the continuation of the tale. best, --Nick
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/13/18 03:27 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well to continue,

the reconstruction of many of the buildings necessitated the incorporation of, in many cases mud sills and other structural members, that during their 100 years of pre seaway life had sucummed to rot or fracturing from demolition on their original sites

It actually worked quite well because as a replacement timber was required one could usually select one from the timber repository in one of 2 locations

problems did develop though for the framer and his team because the perfect substitute usually had curves and bows that needed to be dealt with before they could be used.

counter hewing was the name of the game, as william E Bell in his 1858 volume CARPENTRY MADE EASY put it, but he was referring to counter hewing new timber that had for one reason or another succumed to internal stresses, or curing ills

I know from experience hewing new timber that the sun would quickly dish a timber as it was being hewn especially if left unattended over a warm weekend, we resorted to covering the exposed upper sides with one inch lumber, and when the timber was finally completed to store on level bed pieces in a sheltered but airy spot

It was surprising and very difficult to frame a barn frame over a couple of months because even the nice straight stored timber would then bow as you worked from day to day, and throw chalk lines out

We were continually fighting the sun`s intensity as we try tested the framed bents and their many braces, for square and trueness

Long timbers say 45 feet even though looking true at first glance would always show a discrepancy as you drew a chalk line from end to end to decide on the many complicated seatings and positions of posts, braces seatings

Sometimes we had to resort to WILLIAM E. BELL`S counter hewing just to obtain a level playing field

I hope that you are following me as I ramble on, but these were just some of the problems we had to deal with as reconstruction moved ahead

Now I say reconstruction, my father dealt with reconstruction using old reclaimed timber, I rather dealt with reconstruction of old disappearing examples of historical buildings using new hewn material, and I say new because to hew enough timber for a 30 by 45 foot barn was quite an undertaking, and required approx 1 season of hard work for 3 men

Just to give you some indication of what we were up against, first of all everything was advertised a year or two in advance giving you and your team strict guidelines, in that regard all timber in advance of hewing had to be selected and purchased, harvested and transported to the site not a small feat because most bush harvesters could care less about old knots, external defects, tears or rips

I personally had to select standing trees, for instance that would square a 12 by 12 at 45 feet, no wane edge, but we did get through it and did end up with some pretty nice timber

Those timber described above ended up 40 inches on the butt, and seemed quite formidable to the hewing team

well so far so good

hope you enjoy

Richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/17/18 03:19 AM

hello everyone tonight

I must apologize for opening up multiple topics on this thread, but as my mind slowly gives up pieces of my past it has a tendency to skip around a bit, like the reconstruction of the Ross Barn (above).

Many aspects of its reconstruction necessitated piles of research to not only faithfully hew and frame its many unusual features-one might say what could be unusual about a 3 bay barn, well lets see, for starters the frame members were unusually large and decidedly not square but rectangular in cross section

why was this a challenge--well as you framed each bent the cross sectional sizes of each of the different rectangular vertical post meant that an adjustment of the length of each connecting girt had to be closely followed--remembering that the wide width of each of these vertical posts in the outlying walls carrying the connecting girts were in line with the girts, and each vertical post were sized differently in that respect

Just to summarize what I am trying to say is that of the 4 cross girts which by the way were 30 foot 10 by 12s, not one ended up the same length, and even all our careful checking and rechecking failed us on the length of one of the cross girts, by 3 inches, the error not being noted until 2 days before the raising

This error was a sneaky one because even though we had framed and checked the bent for true with each brace in place, we failed to check the overall length until the last minute

We were lucky because we had a spare 30 foot timber unused but not yet hewn-so in the space of 30 hours we had to hew and frame a new connecting girt- a feat I will forever thank the hewing and framing team, and un benown to the many that came to see the barn frame rise

Then there were the large barn doors opening on to the threshing floor--they swung inwards on large wooden hinges, the hinges themselves an integral part of the doors skeleton the hinge itself constructed so that the pins were of 1.25 inch oak and the pin itself held by 2 oak brackets firmly placed in the vertical posts

Safety was always on my mind as we began to move up to the second floor level to install the purlin plates and the posts, these members were quite smallish and the 45 foot purlin plates only 7 inches square were delicate to manouever and could have cracked or split as they were being handled

Well have to go

enjoy

NH
richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/04/18 02:45 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well to continue

You know I had constructed and repaired many older structures during my tenure at UCV, but nothing quite as large as a 3 bay historic building, I am referring to the Ross Barn above, many had been smaller buildings with no second level framing so I had to put together guidelines for the constructing techniques
always with a safety person in the background watching closely

The older techniques lack of safety didn`t really cut it so to speak, and this aspect hindered my representation of life in the 1860 time period hard to address

Along with that aspect the lack of knowledge all the costumed interpreters had that dealt with climbing and walking on narrow timbers or even planks added to the safety of the whole raising aspect of the barn frame

I overcame second level work by adding more planks to walk on than I am sure was the case in the 1860 menu but It was what it was and no casualties!

Well I have to leave now

enjoy
will be back

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/19/18 07:36 PM

hello everyone

well spring is sure slow arriving but always comes

I just finished putting up the firewood for next winter, great for exercise and will feel good then for sure--nothing like wood heat

ran across a few pieces of wild cherry which immediately went into my cllection up in the hay loft--my wood drying area--I get great enjoyment out of having a personal arsenal of various kinds of woods to use when i need to fix or help someone out that needs a handle

During the winter I was reviewing some of my book given to me at some point in my career and came across one entitled Sawmilling as it Was

I never really studied it out at length but it is a fabulous documentry on sawmills out in oregon and California, and covered early 1800s to about 1950

As I read through the text I was drew to one page in particular that drew my attention, it covered schooners drawing fresh cut lumber to San Fancisco

To some this may not be interesting but to me it was because my father who landed there from Canada around 1920 was lured there by the need for carpenters and apprentices to help rebuild the city after the devastating earthquake in 1902 destroyed much of it

He by the way met my mother there and eventually came back to where he came from a decade later

He told me thrilling stories of working hundreds of feet in the air building cement forms from story to story, no fooling around there for sure, when the bell blew you were at your work station no matter how many stories up or you were fired!!!

My father taught me how to support and construct cement forms that needed no outside support or bracing something that I used years later--I was give a job to build cement forms for a large oil separation unit and I put no out side braces against the forms--The superintendant came around and said to me, you have no bracing on the forms, I said to him if you were up a hundred feet in the air what would you brace to--he just turned and left--

The book is filled with wonderful pictures of small to very large band mills, the one in particular had cut the world,s record board, at least they called it a board, it was 4 inches thick by 81 inches high and 8 feet long Redwood

It also showed pictures of men standing beside fallen trees at least 12 feet in diameter, cutting 8 foot segments to ship to the mill--they were funny looking logs for sure--

Well I hope you enjoy

I know you all do for sure-don,t forget to hop on board with some of your wonderful skills and experiences-I do enjoy immensely what you all do, and it can add valubly to the knowledge base for many youger individuals

richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/05/18 01:53 AM

hello everyone tonight

Well I noticed that over 5 million have visited this thread, and I would like thank everyone for stopping by and listening to my ramblings, but you know that there seems to be a real appetite out there for discussions about common everyday life from times gone by

I just took down and dusted off my old Stanley 45 adjustable plane and tried to explain to one of my shop visitors how it worked and what unique things could be done with it like laying a bead right on the corner something that is pretty near impossible with a modern tool--I had examples of a window frame and its associated trim handy to prove my point--he had to agree it was quite unique

My son just went by the shop with a 4 furrow plow with a 100 horses ahead of it, it brought back to my mind my uncle pulling into the field over yonder within eye sight from where I am, I was only 6 at the time by the way--he laboured for the best part of a week with a walking plow and 3 horses, turning a 8 inch furrow resting at each end of the field, the lines around his back.

The same horses and plow turned out our potatoes each fall, upsetting each row so their contents could be easily removed with a short fork that had its tongs turned at the blacksmith shop to create hooks. We put upwards of 1500 lbs in the cellar to last us for the year with some left over for next years seed

You know as I reminisce more of yesteryear returns, and I can't help wondering what we have really gained with all our modern, expensive--to the point of being stupid--

well have to go

NH--richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 07/09/18 02:15 AM

hello everyone tonight

I would like to say thanks to those that risks their lives for others--it seems to be going on all over the world--

When I was young growing up here in rural Ontario, world events seemed so far away, and you only learned of them months after they happened, if at all--it was even worse as you travelled back in time--my father as he demolished one of the homes that was to be removed and restored at the new UCV site in the 50's came across an old newspaper stuffed in the plaster wall dating to the 1840's, it had a little blurb in it pertaining to the Mexican-- American war, the Irish famine, plus many other non related articles

This family being very wealthy were able to afford purchasing a newspaper, whereas most could not afford this luxury and were only aware of events close to home,

Today we are flooded with world events some good but many do not fall into that category

I must say though that as I sit here tonight I can literally travel the world delving into my favorite subject matter, and realize how small and private my life and my work used to be, and how easy it seems to be now to spread out what I consider interesting to all who take the time to drop by--please say hello---I am humbled by the interest in things related to my life--

Richard-- the Northern Hewer--
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/10/18 01:52 AM

hello everyone tonight

well opened up my chest of tools today--its a monthly thing--to check for rust and to apply a light coating of 3 in 1 oil to the steel blades, today I honed my chisels and plane blades,and as my eyes roved over my tool chest, I couldn't help noticing the wooden box holding my complete set of Irwin hand augers--and my mind went back to the day I purchased them 50 some odd years ago now--paid 15 dollars then--quite a sum of money at that time--almost a weeks wages--I do spend quite a bit of time now in the shop--like my dad before me--

well have to go
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/15/18 02:42 AM

hello everyone tonight

this is a bit off topic but we do have fun off topic for sure--

I have a little project on the go and I need a little input to be able to complete it.

about a year ago I began to put together a shop grinding stone setup that I believe I have mentioned before during some of this thread's many topics

I believe that I have put together a very useful that is now ready for use but can be improved

The main ingredient in the setup is a large 30" stone that is 3" in width on its face. I have electrified the rim's rpm's to agree with historic millwright's recommendations as far as speed is concerned

What I am dealing with is a slight wobble as it revolves. it seems that previous owners must have caused this deformity in some way--anyway I would like to true it up, please jump in with some suggestions if anyone out there has any

it will work as is but it would be nice if the rim could be trued

thanks in advance

Richard Casselman
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/23/19 06:17 PM

hello everyone tonite

I have been waiting for some suggestions about how to true up this large grinding wheel

there must be some setup that will do the job

I have been thinking about some type of a carbide cutter that would cut and true as the wheel turns

I am sure some of you guys that given this as a project could come up with a solution

Hoping to hear from someone soon

Richard--NH--
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/24/19 12:58 AM

Hey Richard,

Sorry, I've been supper busy and missed in your last post a "query."

I don't do really well with just "words" to get an idea about what someone is wanting to do...So if you could post pictures of your stones, that would be great.

What I can share is that I have done what you are trying to do, quite a few times over the decades. Each case is a bit different and in the beginning I did it differently than I do today...

I would "bush" the stones clean and straight geometrically first and then turning when I had to do it all...by hand. Just like cleaning, sharpening or truing grist stones and related milling stones...

Now, its fast and much simpler to do with some basic stone carving tools under power...I take a 4.5 inch grinder with a diamond medium to fine shaping head, and while the larger stone is spinning, I register the grinder off something (?) solid and genitally lay it on the stone that is spinning. The process is done in usually less than a few minutes even seconds depending on how much shaping must take place...

Hope that helped? Let me know here or send me an email...
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/19 10:46 AM

Coincidentally I was doing some necessary stone trueing yesterday and had my camera handy, then I read this which seems directed at the very same thing. Does this come anywhere near the neighborhood of what you are after?


Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/26/19 10:17 PM

Great Job...that's a way too, and a good one!!!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/19 01:21 AM

hello everyone tonight

Yup!!!!

Thanks immensely for the feed back and the lovely before and after pics

That stone is like the one I Came in possession of a few years ago, unfortunately it had an irregular surface problem

I installed a new arbour and mounted it on a whole new setup that was moveable for storage

My final problem was the irregularity of the surface as it rotated it was this problem that I am now aiming at

I am curious about the black square block that you are using to cut and true the surface, it must be a very hard substance

Could you get back to me on that one point

Before I leave--Jay--thanks for your suggestion also--I believe you are referring to the way a miller dresses a grist stone to remove unevenness a process I am familiar with being associated with an 1860 Grist mill at UCV, and watching the miller working with and truing up the grinding stone's surface

I believe you are suggesting roughly removing some of the surface and then using another process to smooth the surface, maybe you could expand on what you are suggesting

Sorry I can't provide pics at this time but I might be able to send some through my granddaughter, thanks again

Thanks to both of you guys--appreciate--

Richard--NH--
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/19 01:53 AM

Hi Richard,

I think the "black square block" is nothing more than some type of carborundum stone. Cecile's method is tried and true. He did a great job of it!!!

I've used the method he shared and it's a great one if all you have is the big stone itself spinning and want a less expensive "hand method"of truing the spinning stone. This is the "tradtional method" for truing sharpening stones of this type. I'm not familiar with any other methods other that a "bushing wheel" but that is a tedious method in my experience and view of it.

I find the diamond stone works so fast that truing even a badly out of true stone goes really fast. I've never had one take more than about 35 minutes for the worst of them...most in lest the 10 minutes of work.

Blessings,

j
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/28/19 10:37 AM

The process is clear enough for anyone to see, and yes, Jay has cleverly identified the dressing stone for what it is. This method is easy and painless which means it gets done in a timely way and not put off excessively. Sometimes I dress and in the case of a particularly brutal grinding dress again immediately afterwords before another go at it, that's just the way it is though your results may differ depending on the stone in front of you. I will just add that I've worked with only three depth indicators, perimeter and central but prefer going with 5 - maximum allowed - as in the case presented.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/19 01:27 AM

hello everyone tonite

thanks again for expanding on the information, one thing that I am still wondering about is how you put in place the depth indicators (5) on the face of the stone, this is a neat feature and a good guide, but I need some direction and the tool used

Also it looks like you run the stone in a water trough of some sort--would this be suitable for all stones or just certain types--I believe mine is a natural stone not certain though

thanks again

your friend always

Richard--NH--
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/19 03:16 AM

Hi Richard,

The "tool used" (or tools) can very depending on which modality you select. Carborundum Dressing Stone, Diamond Dressing Stone, or a "spinning diamond dressing system" which is the fastest method yet perhaps the most challenging if not experienced with it.

Maybe someone else can speak better to "depth indicators?" I dress the spinning stones "by eye" until all deviation, wobble and variant in the stone is removed. As the "out of true" stone is spinning, the "truing stone" is pressed against it. Some rest it on a registration support (the most common method) while others may hold the "truing stone" free hand. I'm not as concerned with how much depth I remove, as I am with the stone spinning "true" and the surface also being return to smooth and "true."

Hope that made sense?

Regards,

j
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/29/19 08:28 AM

The grooves I cut with a steel electrical conduit,(this is very old material, would never pass inspection), 15 mm diameter resting on a board on the rim of the trough, all very non-technical, you understand. I think this pipe form is ideal even though it wears quickly. Since it's a pipe there is always a sharp edge to be found by rotating it where something solid would sooner become rounded over. I begin near one edge of the stone, the pipe only making contact at the high points. When the groove is continuous it means the low spot has been reached and I move on to the next groove at the stone's opposite edge and so on and so on. With this method the surface may or may not come out straight but this doesn't bother me since I am grinding blades free-hand without a fixed guide. The only concern I have, that the grinding surface be flat and even.

I always work the stone with water because in the case of grinding I think it is most effective, in the case of trueing I have no dust coming off.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 03/31/19 01:56 AM

hello everyone tonight,

Thanks for all your help--the pipe suggestion sounds intriguing
I believe I will try that route first and see what happens

I was thinking of heating up a piece of good high carbon tool steel and then quenching it in water to obtain a really tough cutting edge

You know back a few years ago I had to produce a cone shaped bearing for the grist mill,s grinding stone to spin on

This stones weighs approx. 1000 lbs and spins at about 125 rpm

it took 2 tries but in the end the machinist produced one that has stood the wear now since 1984 and still going

He used a high carbon steel blank to create the cone shape and then fired it to a very high temperature, he then immersed it in a cool liquid I believe water or oil and told me not to drop it or it would shatter like glass it was so hard

Just food for thought--this bearing also had a turned mate for it to sit in, and it sat in a cast iron box about 4 inches square there is about a cup of oil for lubrication- the spinning cone being so hard produces no noticeable frictional heat and needs very little attention

You see we don't need carbide just good knowledge of metal to produce hardness, it was this process that was in the back of my mind

Anyway I am going to use your suggestion first and then go from there

Always yours
Richard--NH--
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/02/19 01:37 PM

hello everyone tonight

Well sorry for being away so long, but mother nature threw another curve at me and this time I struck out, any way since I last visited my site I noticed many have visited and I hope enjoy what I have recorded about all different aspects and subjects that I have dealt with throughout my life

I feel humbled to think that anything I have done or accomplished in my simple life seems to be interesting to those around me

please I would like to hear from any of you with any of your stories and please feel free to use this site for interesting chats

Richard
the northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/02/19 01:42 PM

hello everyone tonight

just before I leave I would like to thank the

Timberframer's Guild for sharing a spot for this chat site I appreciate it so much

Richard
the northern hewer
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/02/19 03:01 PM

Thanks for passing on all your stories to us. Take care.
Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/04/19 09:29 PM

Hi JIm and others

feeling a lot better now and thank the one above for giving alittle more time to reminisce

if any of you want to ask me questions about my work in days gone by feel free to send me an email at richard2@xplornet.ca

Richard
the northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/10/19 01:34 AM

hello everyone tonight

well something unusual happened to me today

just cleaning out an area where I stored old papers that I had accumulated over the last 50 years and stumbled across an old diary that I kept about 50 years ago, made very interesting reading even though I was the author (forgot all the entries)

The last entry was Nov 1 1971, only 32 at the time, the whole world seemed to have changed--I am now 80--and as you guessed it much has changed for sure--all my close neighbours are gone, including my parents, grandparents, close friends, and I could go on down the list, so what did I decide to do, you guessed it, I began to enter new items 48 years from the last post, should make interesting reading for someone in my family in the years to come

Having said that I encourage everyone to put down a few diary items and store it away--I found out by chance how interesting old entries can be

I ran across an old hydro bill for 1969 , it was for 3 months and believe it or not was a total of 29 dollars or 10 dollars a month, my last bill was 170 dollars for 1 month, and I was doing everything I could to keep it at that level, even with inflation figured in, hard to understand.

maybe some of you have had similar things happen I am sure that it would be enjoyable reading

well have to go now hope you enjoy my ramblings

Richard
the northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/11/19 01:42 AM

hello everyone tonight:


today I was once again remembering some of my major events and one that I really enjoyed being a big part of was a re enactment of moving one of the log buildings at UCV, we were required to use only methods used at that time, and it was open to public scrutiny and admission.

Once again I had to obtain accurate research material and then interview someone who had actually moved buildings and was still able to add hands on knowledge to the whole mix

I was fortunate to interview an older gentleman, who had moved large barns and houses, I was really interested in the power source he used and the equipment and methods and obstacles he may have had to overcome as he worked through some of his projects

You might be interested in what I found out talking to him!!!

Well unfortunately I have to go but will be back to continue---

Richard
The Northern Hewer
(broad axing timber--- what else is interesting?)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/21/20 01:59 AM

Hello everyone tonite

It's been a while but Mother Nature is relentless sometimes, trying to evade that pesky virus, so far so good.

I hope that all you. Guys and gals are doing fine, I am starting to get restless, not used to sitting around, managed to get my wood split and ready for next winter

Richard
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 05/12/20 01:40 AM

Hello everyone tonight

Well just a note here that deals with training and use of old tools, mainly the broadaxe, and adze, after quite. While due to Mother Nature, dealing me a curve ball, I would once again offer my services, in the form of teaching from afar
I have helped many gain the knowledge to obtain tools that are of good quality, sharpen,and use safely to create a timber that carries your signature in the finished surface

Give me an email at --Richard.casselman@xplornet.ca for further conversation

I am looking forward to hearing from you, I enjoy a good conversation on the subject close to my heart

Richard casselman
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/01/20 12:18 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Just like to enter my proper email address---richard2@xplornet.ca--

Sorry about that bad entry in the previous post

I have just finished entering 3 subjects historic hewing, broadaxe handle carving, and historic adzing from old storage medium (DVD) on a 8mb memory stick--quite a feat for an old codger like me--but I enjoyed the challenge, it will now be easier for me to help those that need help, please drop me a line, if you need this kind of instruction, I have always enjoyed helping those in need.

Well back to evading that pesky virus

Richard casselman
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/06/20 08:22 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Please go to the tools for sale section and visit my teaching tools from afar for more conversation and information on my favorite subject

Richard--nh--
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/31/20 01:50 AM

Hello everyone tonight

It's been a while since I have posted , but I have been busy transferringee some of my research material to newer upto date storage, a large task indeed but very interesting

I am quite interested in preserving information for future generations of truly interested students both young and old

I can see the challenges that people like Oliver Evans had as he also tried to preserve information, that I drew on as I struggled with complicated millwrighting problems during my career, I found out early on that tidbits of very necessary information was omitted, I am sure not intensionaly, on really difficult problems that I had to deal with was inserting cast iron Gudgeons into the wooden shaft of a 1860 barrel wheel that powered a Muley mill,s vertical blade

Anyway I could go to other complicated subjects but for another time

I have covered many subjects in this very long thread , enjoyed every minute, hope I helped someone along the way to become interested enough to continue to preserve knowledge for future generations

Nh

Richard casselman
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/18/20 02:16 AM

HI everyone tonight
Just reminiscing and took a little trip down memory lane it all started. As I was reviewing one of my storage tapes that dealt with historic mill writing, all necessary as I downloaded information on new storage medium.

It made me realize that the project of the complete restoration of the raceway, and then power source for the vertical blade, a very early wooden barrel wheel (1867) , was. going to be a challenge, and it sure turned out to live up to that end

Well I will continue when I return

The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/19/20 02:03 AM

Hi everyone tonite

I have had many challenges,/projects handed to me over my career, but not many came close to the reconstruction of The 1867 water powered Muley sawmill's raceway, and the horizontal barrel wheel, that powered its equipment, including its single vertical blade, the ratcheting system, and the saw frame , that no could handle 20 foot logs up to 36" on the butt end

I always said to many who came to view this operating mill, from first glance, seemed to be of rough and crude construction, but as you view its sawn lumber, it is apparent that is not the case

You could hold sawn tolerances to within 1/8", easily, and 1/16" on smaller squares

One of the problems that one had to deal with, was the weight of the large logs, springing the head block

Now the head block was massive, but would spring slightly, and the downward cutting stroke also added to this problem.

Now just to give some perspective,as far as the head block is concerned,it had a recess that accommodated the 12" blade beyond the end of the log

Well have to go now, but will return
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/19/20 05:42 PM

I have a question for the moderator or anyone else who may like to respond

I have many nice pictures of the reconstruction on DVD disks, just don,t know how. To post them from that medium to the chat site, I know other people are posting, like to give it a shot, for everyone,s enjoyment

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/19/20 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by northern hewer
I have a question for the moderator or anyone else who may like to respond

I have many nice pictures of the reconstruction on DVD disks, just don,t know how. To post them from that medium to the chat site, I know other people are posting, like to give it a shot, for everyone,s enjoyment

NH


NH:
As far as I know there is no way to store the photos on this website/forum.
You'll have to find a site where you can upload your pictures to that site and they can host your pictures. Then I believe you can post a link to the photo.
I'll have to try it to see if it can be done.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/19/20 07:32 PM

Years ago, I had some photos on a free site known as photobucket. I just checked and that site is no longer free. You have to pay to use it.
I don't know of any other sites right now.
Maybe someone else knows of one that is good and free.
Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/20 01:31 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Thanks Jim, thanks for your input, but I still wonder how others seem to be posting pictures, and even video clips

Thanks again
NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/20 07:53 AM

It's a view of work keeping me busy at the moment out in what I call, "the schuur" but that is besides the point. Is this what you mean NH?
[Linked Image from shinglemaker.files.wordpress.com]
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/20/20 07:59 AM

And by the way, given the topic's thread-name, here I was busy prepping that very beam.
[Linked Image from ernestdubois.files.wordpress.com]
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/21/20 01:23 AM

Hi everyone tonite

Yup, that is what I meant, one picture is worth a thousand words, how do you post such informative pictures, it seems so effortless, but I am sure that t here must be a catch 2 somewhere.

I did use photobucket, back a while ago, but I realized that once they do their little service, they seem to own the pictures, not good!!!

Surely their is a way,

NH
Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/23/20 10:29 AM

My way is not typical, I don't use one of these picture hosting sites like the one mentioned or the others not mentioned. Because I have a website hosted by word press I make use of that service so the first thing you will do is register on that website, it's

free - in exchange for all your personal information, naturally. Then you are able to take pictures off your DVD or hard drive etc...add them to your very own media library where they are automatically assigned a url - don't worry about the techno jargon, it's easy -

you will be prompted to copy this address by clicking on the "copy button" in the editing section of your media library. With this address saved you come to the Timber Framing Guild's forum and to the topic of choice and using the fullest reply option click the icon, which you see above the text

box indicating a photograph, and when the pop-up window appears click the text box there and paste your picture's url in that space and validate the choice. Your picture will then be placed in line in your text. Remember you must first join in at

wordpress to take advantage of their url providing services. It's the url that is key to your success.


Please feel free to post any questions for more clarity on this or other maters.

Attached File
Timmermän.jpg  (427 downloads)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/24/20 11:33 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Thanks CD for the great information, it sounds very workable, but I have a problem with releasing to them all my personal. Information

Thanks again

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/25/20 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by northern hewer
Hello everyone tonite

Thanks CD for the great information, it sounds very workable, but I have a problem with releasing to them all my personal. Information

Thanks again

NH
Hello NH,

I don't comment much here on your post thread, as it seems most often your just sharing with us what your up to, which is often interesting. I agree "illustrations" are worth a 1000 words. Our little forum is rather atrocious for not being user friendly and certainly not on par with most basic of modern day chat rooms for posting pictures, sharing fonts from other languages, etc. I too wish it was more capable and the "go to" place for woodworkers and the like seeking information on timber framing but its not. It is, however, the horse we have to plow with at this time and gets the job done for the most part...

As for Cecile's advise, it was both informative and accurate, and why when he post pictorial information we all learn from it...

I'm ultra conservative in many ways to the point that I have never owned or carried cell phones, do not have main stream bank accounts and credit cards, and related modern attachments that most folks abide by. Nor do I give out my information willy-nilly." However, it is delusional, in this day and age, if anyone believes that government(s) and business institutions do not track (and continue to try more each day) your comings and goings. That is a simple reality of the modern age and unless you wish to live in wilderness someplace under a rock, it will only get worse...not better...

Governments and businesses of all kinds most certainly do track us, and because they use the internet for this data gathering and storage...all our personal data is already out there but hopefully being better managed than it sometimes is. The trick, if concerned, is having the smallest viable personal digital footprint as possible within context of personal data. I have a solid online digital presence, but it is only "public data," that is put out there. Pictures, if meant to be educational don't belong to you anyway if the intent is to inform and instruct others. So, in reality, it should not matter much what platform you put them on as the copyright is still yours as the originator of the photo, not that this means much these days anyway in some regards if the actual goal is sharing information and not just controlled self promotion...

Folks out in the world could benefit from your shared perspectives of this craft and that includes posting your photographic and illustrative understandings within it. Pick a platform and start sharing...Cecile's choice is an excellent one...







Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 10/30/20 12:00 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Hi Jay, quite a reply, it took me and my old head a couple of reads to digest what you wrote down, and maybe what was in between the lines----

One question though, my photos that I posted using photobucket, will always be in their control, I expect that is their little prize for doing their posting thing for , am I not right?

I do carry a cell phone just for personal security, and having worked for the gov,t I needed a bank acct to get paid,everything is figures---you are right though everyone might just as well have a number tattooed right across our forehead

My main focus in all my posts was to,try and educate those that are interested in my career in the restoration field, this encompassed way more than just creating hewn timber, which is a very rewarding in itself, but led me in many different directions, as I had to use these hewn timbers to create period structures, which in itself again led me to work with historic tradesmen, like black smiths, historic masons, cabinet makers, horse powered equipment, water powered equipment, water powered mills,

So as I end this short essay, I salute all out there that drop in , and especially the timberframers guild who sponsors this site, and I might say that also must have thought that I had something special to say w hen I was invited to lecture a few years ago now

Richard casselman. UE

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/10/20 02:22 AM

Hello everyone tonite

I was just thinking today about working with rough, irregular sized, hewn timbers, like I have had to in the past to create an accurate reproduction of an existing building.

I was just wondering if there are some of you that would take up the challenge, if the opportunity came your way!

The work order would read something like this

-timeframe, 2 seasons
-find a suitable example (would be specified)
-create a working set of drawings or sketches, and have them approved
-find timber of similar qualities and type
-put together a work team of qualified personnel
-hand hew the necessary sticks, and then using proper methods create the frame
-put together a larger group to raise the frame historically correct methods
-finish the exterior
-finish the interior (both as per drawings, sketches and photographs)
- all work to be of high caliber, and follow directions of site supervisor
-work to meet safety standards (as much as possible), safety briefings a must

Just interested
Richard casselman UE
NH

I forgot to say --no modern tools--
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/13/20 12:56 AM

Hello everyone tonight

I guess no one would answer this request for someone to be a leader on this project, I did suspect that someone out there might be interested, to not only show their skills but be part of rescuing a disappearing part of our history

Please feel free to come on board and discuss any aspect of this topic, I would like to help anyone who might need an insight into what rescuing a period structure is all about

I don't feel that I have any special talents, or had any many moons ago, but I did have a father that instilled good carpentry skills I n me, and most of all lead me. In the right direction, and you know I seemed to be in the right place at the right time--some of the time----maybe some of you experienced similar life experiences

Well so much for now

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/13/20 02:16 AM


Hi Richard,

I will try to catch up in as succinctly a fashion as possible...

Originally Posted by northern hewer
Hi Jay, quite a reply, it took me and my old head a couple of reads to digest what you wrote down, and maybe what was in between the lines...One question though, my photos that I posted using photobucket, will always be in their control, I expect that is their little prize for doing their posting thing for , am I not right?
Control...perhaps, at least until they are bought or merged with another business entity, but as far as I know they do not “own” your photos or the copyright to them at all…

Originally Posted by northern hewer
I do carry a cell phone just for personal security, and having worked for the gov,t I needed a bank acct to get paid,everything is figures---
Almost all of us have been their Richard for sure at one time or another. I'm more detached now thankfully...

As an inactive U.S. Marine with security clearances and active FBI file (long story) I more than understand being connected and watched. Neither of these things ever really bothered me. It is part of being “in service” and those of us that are, do it willingly. One must learn to “be seen” without “being seen,” but that is an art within itself that is hard to muster. I certainly would not know how if not for being in the service...

Originally Posted by northern hewer
My main focus in all my posts was to,try and educate those that are interested in my career in the restoration field...
And...speaking for myself, that interest will never wane as long as you are willing to share! Thank you for doing so!

Originally Posted by northern hewer
I was just thinking today about working with rough, irregular sized, hewn timbers, like I have had to in the past to create an accurate reproduction of an existing building...I was just wondering if there are some of you that would take up the challenge, if the opportunity came your way!
I think there are many here Richard that not only “would” but have taken this up. I have followed the Burra Conventions ethos of “like for like in means, methods and materials,” for all my work in the conservation, restoration and/or replication of vintage fabrics be they textile, earth, ceramic, stone or timber. Any and all that actually do it professional at a museum or professional conservators level does. Of course that is way more so in places like Europe or within museums rather than the likes of the, “...This Old House…” types that are nothing more than general contractors that just happen to work on “old buildings,” and certainly not Restoration Experts as they are so often titled…

I’m not certain if you have a LinkedIn account Richard, but you would be more than welcome to join and share on the collective forum that I administer there. It's not much or significant group at all by comparison, only 5900 members but it is a very international collective of professionals, with more than ⅓ of my associations in the field from overseas. It covers everything from paintings and ceramics to furniture, plaster crafts, and of course timber framing too. It also, alas, has a lot of forced advertising too, but that aside its a great way to connect to other professionals that work at a higher level of craft within their given disciplines...especially those of us in mixed mediums and not just one. If you are a member of LinkedIn and/or join...look for: “Architecture and Vintage Materials Conservation, Restoration and Reconstruction” under “groups.”

Originally Posted by northern hewer
The work order would read something like this


That “work order” is stand practice and I would say actually “basic” in nature at its best. Anything less than that would not be a restoration effort at all but rather a general contracting project on an old building that someone is more keen to make a profit on rather than actually properly restore something...LOL..especially a nice old timber frame structure...I’m not certain about the power tools part, but I can promise that all is finished by hand and traditional tools are reached for the most...


Originally Posted by northern hewer
...I guess no one would answer this request for someone to be a leader on this project, I did suspect that someone out there might be interested, to not only show their skills but be part of rescuing a disappearing part of our history...


Didn’t see the request till tonight Richard, and I thought it was more hypothetical than real and tangible. Is this a project you are on or wanting to get support for?

Either way...such work is out there, but mainly oversees for the most part or in New England area where I have worked on and off since the 80’s with such work…
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/20 01:39 AM

Everyone tonite

Thanks for coming on board Jay

You have quite a work record for sure, I am humbled!!

Well we all. Travel through life doing and accepting what comes our way, I came from a very humble background----l asked my. High school principal, John Schultz to tell me If my education in a one room country school, SS 10 was equal to receiving an ecducation in a large multi room school, he was quick to reply probably much better, I entered grade 9 at 10 years old and graduated high school at 14 years of age

You know I could have gone to summer school and at. That time taught at 16 years of age, but life took me in different directions, I took.up apprenticing with my father a re al good carpenter, not realizing where I. W as headed, but boy I enjoyed t he ride, and proud of what I accomplished, and many others along the way

It has been great running into you and many others. On this absolutely wonderful site

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/20 03:32 AM

Hi everyone again tonite

I really never thought that my accomplishments were pretty basic, I worked under one of the leading architects here in Canada, mr John stokes, who supervised all work at UCV ,

He specialized in historic structures, houses, barns, mills, military holdings, like fort Henry in Kingston Ontario

He hailed from England and was responsible for every aspect of creating UCV

But I guess working under his guidance would have been basic

NH
Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/14/20 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by northern hewer
Everyone tonite

Thanks for coming on board Jay

You have quite a work record for sure, I am humbled!!

You know I could have gone to summer school and at. That time taught at 16 years of age, but life took me in different directions, I took.up apprenticing with my father a re al good carpenter, not realizing where I. W as headed, but boy I enjoyed t he ride, and proud of what I accomplished, and many others along the way

It has been great running into you and many others. On this absolutely wonderful site

NH


Hi Richard,

Nothing humbling at all compared to your own efforts Richard! They are just as impressive if not more so in many ways...We're just getting "long in the tooth" so have more stories to tell than some...!!!

I couldn't agree more about your education too...FAR!!! superior in most ways for sure compared to what our learning institution are producing today. As with most things "modern" they may be faster (sometime?) and the certainly can make "some" wealthy but there is seldom anything "superior" about them at all...

Blessings,
j
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/15/20 12:22 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Hi jay, we will probably never meet, but through this medium , and the great country we live in lets us pursue without fear avenues of working adventure, that taken at the tide leads us to levels that would be hard to attain in many other countries.

You know many moons ago I experienced a true life happening that made me realize what we are fortunate to have here,

I was out doing a demonstration to a large group of foreign visitors, and I was telling them how we were trying to preserve our heritage, and this one tall lad came over to me and he went on to say tha the group was from Russia

It was after our relations were starting normalize somewhat, he went on to say t hat their country had lost much of their skills due to a relaxation of restoration of their heritage structures, and this new generation was trying to catch up by visiting and observing other countries efforts

It made me proud to think that anything I had to say might have a positive effect on someone in their group

One thing I noticed was the wide variation of nationalities in the group, it was astonishing to say t he least

Well that,s it for tonite

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/13/20 02:57 AM

Hello,everyone tonite

Well getting close to finishing out this year, and what a year it has been for sure, hope everyone is hunkering down and staying well, I for one is trying to do just that, but it is hard, have to get out once in a while to do some trading

You will notice I said ""trading"", just a familiar saying from my younger years, mother and dad would always say this never "out to buy groceries". They actually traded home grown things for necessities.

Trying to get ready for the cold weather, right ahead.

The shop will be getting a lot of use, catching up on tool housekeeping, getting them out of storage and for a while the atmosphere in the shop will be 1860, for those dropping by

For sure we will be putting up next years wood supply, which means disturbing the deer and other animals such as coyotes, foxes wild turkeys

I counted 12 deer the other day by the corn crib, having a nervous meal,and in. The background was a whole flock, of wild turkeys waiting for their turn

This. Will be the norm until spring, when Mother Nature will begin being generous

Richard
N H
Posted By: D Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/13/20 09:51 AM

[Linked Image from shinglemaker.files.wordpress.com] So familiar
Posted By: Oligo

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/22/20 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by northern hewer
Hello,everyone tonite

Well getting close to finishing out this year, and what a year it has been for sure, hope everyone is hunkering down and staying well, I for one is trying to do just that, but it is hard, have to get out once in a while to do some trading

You will notice I said ""trading"", just a familiar saying from my younger years, mother and dad would always say this never "out to buy groceries". They actually traded home grown things for necessities.

Trying to get ready for the cold weather, right ahead.

The shop will be getting a lot of use, catching up on tool housekeeping, getting them out of storage and for a while the atmosphere in the shop will be 1860, for those dropping by

For sure we will be putting up next years wood supply, which means disturbing the deer and other animals such as coyotes, foxes wild turkeys

I counted 12 deer the other day by the corn crib, having a nervous meal,and in. The background was a whole flock, of wild turkeys waiting for their turn

This. Will be the norm until spring, when Mother Nature will begin being generous

Richard
N H



I remember when I was living several months in Texas I saw a lot of wild turkeys there, they were really noisy sometimes. Now I am in a Pattaya estate and I have lots of issues with bugs and insects, hate them
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/29/20 03:01 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Thanks Oligo for joining the conversation and your experiences, just wondering if you have much interest in traditional timber framing, I see you came by this site which attracts those interested in historic woodworking

Thanks again for stopping by

Richard
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/21 02:56 AM

Hello everyone. Tonite

A few posts back, the conversation centred around one room schools, and t he type of schooling they seemed to instil in the graduating pupils of t he day many of. Whom are still around.
I am proud to say I am one of them, and had a pretty good grasp of things that seem to evade today's scholars
I was having a nice time with my great grand children the other nite , and. During the course of the conversation I asked the group if they knew where the USA was and was astounded to,find out they really didn't know
I then asked them if they knew what a continent was, no one knew
I t hen asked them if they had ever heard of Europe , Asia , Africa ,,no one knew, at that point I sort of changed the subject, realizing that our education system seemed to be lacking some fundamentals
My oldest great grandchild will be 10!!
Later on I vowed to myself I would introduce them to geography little by little so they would know at least where the Atlantic Ocean is located, and that Canada sits on the North American continent, by the way they all knew where Santa lives, but didn't really know where the North Pole was
I remember sitting in that one room school, the teacher pulling down a map of the world as she was instructing higher grades---we sort of followed along, enjoying the big map(s) of which i am sure there was at least 6 or more.
I wonder sometimes when I see spelling errors by well educated people what is going on
No one knows how to multiply without a calculator
I remember sitting with my boss , interviewing and scoring , now we are talking about single digit figures, I just added mine up in my head, he needed a calculator
(He had a university degree)
Well enough for tonite
Richard
The northern hewer
Posted By: Joe Wood

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/16/21 07:30 PM

I really enjoy your posts Richard!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/17/21 12:44 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Thanks for your comment, it seems a lot of folks like this one room school educated old person, you know I am not really saying th at modern education is not good, all I am saying is t hat for sure something seem left out, something that is really important, like my remarks above.
I do enjoy posting and using a computer, and having said t hat, I remember quite well when one was placed I n my office, and you know what really helped me, was that I had taken a commercial course in grade 12 and I knew my key board, I could not believe my highly educated boss using one finger as he struggled to create a memo!!!
I don't like being hard on him, and I don't mean to he was a good person, a good researcher, and taught me how t o look at old photographs, especially in the background to pick out I mportant details
I guess the education system had to omit something to make room for all the new information being created

Sorry for the errors, but it seems the iPad thinks it needs to change some of my grammar

By the way Before I leave, I have some connection with San Diego, my mother came. From there many moons ago, my father as a young man went out to help rebuild San fransico after the earthquake destroyed a good part of it they met and the rest is history

Richard casselman
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/24/21 02:46 AM

Hello everyone to nite

Well hunkering down here trying to evade the virus, and the frigid weather, having lots of time on my hands I finished downloading some more of my historic millwrighting restoration projects that were handed to me in order to maintain ucv's 1865 water powered Muley sawmill
Go to tools for sale to see a further explanation if you are interested in that subject
I always felt drawn to the hewing aspect of early pioneer life, and realized that without those tools and ability to use them construction of homes, barns, outbuildings, mills of all types, shops, and t he list goes on
Hewing railway ties was a big thing during those early years, and some revenue was gladly early years
The mill I elude to above had 45' 12"square sills and plates, some of the cross timbers were 20" square hewn timbers30' feet long
Enough for tonite

NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/03/21 07:39 PM

Hello everyone tonite
The virus is starting to feel alone, not so many to infect thanks to our gov't,s dedicated push to get everyone innoculated, what a monstrous job indeed!,,
I hope everyone is feeling ok!
I feel sorry for those who didn't fare so lucky, and their families left behind
It won't be long before everyone can be t back to whatever they were do ing 1.5 yrs ago
I personally am feeling well, but body slowing down, I had a talk with myself but that didn't help either
Well back later to chat
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/09/21 12:20 AM

Hello everyone tonite
Been a while, hope everyone is well, as things return to some kind of normalcy
I had time to visit the UCV site, especially the mills and all the timber framed structures that I am happy to say I had a big part of rescuing from fading into history and dissapearing into the mist of time, never to be remembered as a big part of early history.
The saw mill is starting to need someone to give it some TLC , the main wooden driveshaft of the barrel wheel, will soon need to be replaced, a big job indeed for someone, knowledgeable enough to tackle it, I spoke about it a ways back in this long running forum, I do have the necessary saved video on disk that I saved as I worked along replacing it, in the years gone by, it will be interesting if it will be repaired and once again be fully operational into the future
The replacement is a super complicated procedure, and you need to study and execute each step faithfully
I have said it before, the old mill looks pretty rough but it is pretty complicated in its millwrighting technique
I hope someone reading this post picks the reigns, should the opportunity present itself

Richard casselman
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/21 12:48 AM

Hi everyone
Thought that I would let everyone know that I am still alive and kicking, having a wonderful time cozying up to the wood stove, what great heat!, but of course you need good dry wood and year ahead planning.

When I was growing up a good many moons ago, it was this time of year the pace quickened, and I don,t mean getting ready for Christmas, I mean getting ready to hit the bush trails!!

Dad would get out t he sleighs, log chains, axes, can't hooks (guess the computer doesn't realize what a c a n t hook is) , and oh yes the cross cut saw--no motorized chain saws yet for another 10 years, and then they were heavy brutes, only the blades turned 90degrees, what memories!!

Would walk back to the bush, and clear out and maybe cut some new roads to new areas, we would cut and chop firewood, and logs, carefully piling them up for sleighing at the first fall of snow,

Now let's discuss first fall of snow, I mean 1to2 feet and cooooold snapping weather to, freeze, and create a sleighing road---once created, pile one the wood, and away you went--and what a sensation it was--the load chained down, the horses just waiting for the edge of t he bush and the open sleighing road ahead,my father would yell lets go, 😒
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 11/28/21 12:57 AM

Hello everyone again, it seems the computer thought I was done with my rambles, I wasn't, quite but close

Try to stay well and until we meet here again

Richard casselman
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/04/21 08:32 PM

hello everyone tonite,

Well on to my next rescue missio, as you probably well know I truly enjoy saving for future generation examples of things quickly dissapearing, in this case it is my father,s unique sawhorses

I have noticed for some time now how their condition is quickly deteriorating

I know that many of you would say that this does not sound like a very interesting project, but I re member and have photographs of these saw horses standing in background photos, around 1940.

I grew up using them and at that time, marvelled at their unusual design.

It wasn't,t until I began working as a carpenter, that I began comparing their design to those created by others
Most of which were of a very plain design.

In all my years I never quite run across sawhorses, that exhibited any special characteristics until my supervisor said one day just before one of our planned building raisings, we need historical accurate sawhorses on site.

Have to go now but will be back,to continue
NH
Richard casselman
Posted By: Joe Wood

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/05/21 06:22 PM

I'd love seeing a few photos Richard!
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/07/21 08:17 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Hi joe wood

Thanks for the reply and request for some pics.
As you may know this site is not t he easiest to post pictures on, but anyway I am not c omplaining, folks here have used me quite w ell and I wish them the best
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/13/21 02:32 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Well just to continue my conversation with my supervisor reference historic saw horses, I began to do some research on the subject, and my search lead me to an old print in our research library.

The date of the print was 1756 in England, and it included workmen hewing , around them were their tools, as well as a lovely picture that included their 2 sawhorses

They exhibited unusual designs in their constructions, like nothing I had ever seen

I scaled them out as best I could, as follows,

Top main member 4inch square , roughly 43 inches in length
Legs 3inch square, set flush with the end of thr top member
These leg were splayed to the side roughly 12inches, making a stance of 24 inches
The legs were shouldered 3/4 inch against the top main member
The legs were not splayed end wise, but rather had a perfectly vertical stance
About 12 inches from ground level, a cross member approx 2.5inches in cross section was mortised into the opposing leg
This was typical both sets of legs
On this was neatly seated a 1" board used to rest tools on, this board was also neatly cut around the legs at each end
Note--wood pegs were noted to secure all points in the construction

These horses were eventually constructed, and used extensively on site,

Their features were noted as follows,
1- they were very strong, and could carry heavy timbers easily
2-their built in platform were great to lay sharp tools on
3-their height was right for hand work on timberframe timbers

The timberframing's unit had only praise for them , and the visiting public seemed very interested in them, and requested where the design originated from, many times
Well I hope you enjoyed this trip down memory lane

If any of you can draw up a sketch of t he design and post it I would appreciate it, and thank you in advance for those looking in

Hoping to hear from you

NH

Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/01/22 03:12 AM

Well hello everyone tonite

2022 just about here, in a few hours,

In that regard, a happy , safe, and I hope prosperous new year to all of you, wherever you might be, and thanks for following my thread, I truly enjoy sharing my experiences with all of you, and while I am on the subject I would like to thank the TFG for allowing me a niche on their hosting site, and I apologize for once in a while straying into areas and topics that are maybe too personal, I do try to turn the wheel back to things that are dear to my heart, like hewing, adzing, timberframing , historic millwrighting, historic woodwork finishes, paint graining, historic roof applications, and you know it gets really crazy when projects come along that include steam, both engines and heating applications, and creating structures that housed these power and heating sources

I learned a lot as I was involved with all these varied subjects, but most of all from the tradesmen that I worked along side of, and with and I would like to name a few, Lucien direnzio, our resident cabinet maker, a trade all its own! George York , our blacksmith, George was rough around the edges but boy could work wonders with the forge,

Well have to go
See you in 2022
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/09/22 02:19 PM

Hello. Everyone tonite
Well here we go and 2022 here we come

I have described the historic saw horses, and now to get back to the original post that was my description of my fathers sawhorses, you can see how I can wander away from topics---sorry---

First of all these are not historical in nature, but exhibit unusual construction lines, and I am going to enjoy trying to match my fathers workings as I dismantle and reconstruct them.

At the present time I have removed the legs from one end, (gently), I might add, to ensure a preservation of the original angled cuts of the mitres

Got to go for now
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/22 04:36 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Just thought I would let everyone know that there is a "wood and promotional film" put out by t he gov't of Ontario 1972 if you can find it -the person hewing and adzing is yours truly, at about half my age now. There is also footage of horse powered shingle sawingding this footage because , I am operating the shingle saw, then the action moves to the horse powered drag saw, which I am also operating

It was filmed at upper Canada village, there is also in the same video, George York the blacksmith, and Luciano direnzio, cabinet maker, who is doing inlaid work

There is various other films that show spinning, wool dyeing using natural plants and weaving, my mother is pictured in the video buying , spinning, and weaving

It is well worth finding this film because it shows the 1867 water powered saw mill in operation, and good views of the horizontal barrel wheel, that I helped reconstruct and tried to explain in some of my past posts

It also shows the vertical blade cutting, and explains and shows machinery that runs the blade

Hope you can find it
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/22 04:47 PM

Try

HTTPS://YouTube.be/X3kdX-xyNhM

Hope this helps

Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/22 06:20 PM

Hello everyone
Previous link doesn't seem to work, I put in incorrect syllables

Https://YouTube.be/X3dX-xyNhM
Thanks
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/22 07:14 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Getting pretty frustrated with things but give up I won't

Here is new number

https://youtu.be/X3kdX-xyNhM
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/22 07:20 PM

This last number works for me, let me know if you can get it I appreciate the feed back, and sorry

Richard
Nh
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 01/12/22 09:25 PM

Works for me.
Thanks for posting it.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/01/22 07:05 PM

Hello everyone tonight

How are all my friends and timberframe enthusiasts especially the truly historic timberframe enthusiasts.
I hope just fine, I am just enjoying some Liberty now
My tools don't get much use these days so giving them a. Little love and care is critical
Nh
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/22 07:07 AM

Hi Richard,

Cogges Manor Farm at Witney in Oxfordshire is getting ready to start building a Saxon replica house under the direction of McCurdy & Co who built Shakespeare's Globe Theatre in London.

They are seeking volunteers to get involved and like the Sylva Saxon House built at Long Wittenham this will doubtless involve a lot of hewing of the primary timbers. Check out the OWG Twitter feed for contact details

Ken Hume
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/22 08:40 AM

Here is a link to the Sylva Saxon Hall project built at Long Wittenham in South Oxfordshire back in 2019. This is only a few miles from The TFG / CF Wittenham Clumps project.
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/04/22 06:26 PM

I have added a pdf file attachment explaining all about The Cogges Saxon Hall project.

Attached File
Cogges Saxon Hall.pdf  (242 downloads)
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/09/22 12:13 AM

Hi Ken

Nice to hear from you,
It looks l Ike you have a great project on the go there, wish I was closer would be visiting the site.
I envy your older history compared to North America, which it seems is a melting pot of different nationalities who immigrated from about 1500 on
Where I reside here in Canada german influences predominated, my family immigrated in 1710 from Germany to England to New England, and then finally up into Dundas county in Ontario, we stayed loyal to thebritish crown during the war of independence because of the help we received at the previous time by the queen of England at that time.
It is great once again to hear from you, the U.K. Is fortunate to have you and you family part of their heritage movement

Richard casselman
The northern hewer
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/09/22 07:11 AM

Hi Richard,

Thank you for those kind words and historical background information.

I have now learned that training for the Saxon Hall project will likely be held at McCurdy & Co's workshops at Stanford Dingley, Berkshire, England sometime in June 2022. This is a terrific opportunity for those persons looking to break into the field of timber framing to learn basic skills and maybe more importantly to make contact and network with England's premier timber framers.

Ken
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 04/30/22 08:01 AM

Further information on the Saxon house build project at Cogges Manor Farm has now been issued including :-

Blenheim Palace has very kindly donated 30 trees to make the frame and these trees will be selected by McCurdy & Co along with the Cogges project manager.

McCurdy & Co has submitted plans to Cogges Manor Farm for their review and has confirmed that opportunities will exist for 12 volunteer carpenters to work with McCurdy & Co in Reading, Berkshire, England.

For additional information as this emerges check out the Oxfordshire Woodland Group Twitter feed
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 06/13/22 12:11 AM

Hi Ken
Thanks for the update, keep us posted on its progress, and if you can some pics would be welcome I am sure by those looking in

Richard
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 08/11/22 01:48 AM

Hello everyone tonite
Well been quite a summer here,trying to deal with the virus, and just recently deal ing with family shaking accident, the heat and humidity is really trying everyone.
It made me remember the days gone by, no air conditioning, no indoor plumbing, you know just about nothing we all take for granted today.
It makes me think of growing up in the times during ww2, didn't really know what was happening in the rest of the world, now. We seem to know too much, I really feel sorry for those involved
You know though I m glad t o have experienced first hand, some of those old hardships, I learned at an early age how to cut down trees safely, plant gardens, kill and dress, and preserve meat without refrigeration, have light without electricity, and oh yes as the years rolled by enjoy dancing, and movie theatres, couldn't go in and have a beer till I was 21, but having said that I could go to war, drive a car, get married, funny world.

Well bye for now glad to be able yet to come on line a chat with you guys and gals

NH
Richard
Posted By: Mark Davidson

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/06/22 04:35 PM

wow this thread has really become a super topic!
I did a lot of hewing when I started out in timber framing,
now I do a lot of design and barn repair.
I appreciate those who carry on using hand tools, using body energy to shape the wood.
Thanks to Northern Hewer for this mammoth thread of information.
-Mark at www.wpltree.ca
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 12/10/22 07:03 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Hello to you mark, and thanks for your kind words
I've met many people in person and on line, and at seminars, you are one of them!
One thing I really don't know how to handle, is how to ensure that things I have learned and documented are handed down and preserved for future generations.

For instance operating the Muley mill at UCV and repairing it, or re building certain aspects of its architecture from scratch, usually contain information that is not available, like the power source, the horizontal barrel wheel, and it's connecting linkages that operate the blade, and at the same time the forward motion of the log frame, carrying the log into the blade at precicsely the right time.

Many would say, oh well just a cup of tea, well understanding old technology at times comes with question marks! I know I've run up against these so called question marks, not much help out there available, you are on your own!

One aspect that I run up against that no help was available was restoring the 12" oak axle from scratch for the barrel wheel

It contained 2 cast iron Gudgeons one on each end babbited in .place, secured also with original wrought iron rings 2 on each end that were on turned surfaces helping to secure positively each of theGudgeons

alittle further up on the ends of shaft, were turned surfaces that large36" cast collars with moulded cups came to rest ,these had to come to rest approx 3 sixteenth of an inch from the side of the pressure box, this gap closed up as the box swelled, at the same time it could not be tight enough to stop rotation of the shaft!

Try to find this information in old millwrights books, good luck!

Remember you only had on kick at the can, if you messed up on any one aspect during your reconstruction, it was game over for the turned shaft! Start over!

How hot would you heat the babbit?

Was the oak log for turning be green, partly dried, or kiln dried , very Important, because of ramifications as the re construction moved along.

Well I hope you guys and gals enjoy my ramblings

Richard casselman
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/01/23 10:42 PM

Hi ken
Just wondering how your project is coming along, leave it to you guys over there to take very seriously the reconstruction of old architecture! , and take seriously preservation of the remaining/surviving examples.

I worked diligently to try to,retain for future generations old disapearing early building styles that included barns and out buildings

I knew there would be many missed for various reasons, so I filmed and documented and store d this information in the UCV archives.

My father always said that there was more than one way to build A structure and as I exa mined many I noticed outside similarities, but inside differences

Many exhibited their fatherland,s imprint, at least here in Canada, and at times hard to definitively put a finger on the builder,s origin---German/Dutch barns a good example

Well bye for now
Nh
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/23 12:46 AM

Hello everyone this cold night

You know as I reflect on things, take the subject of timberframing and its different forms ie: light, heavy, extra heavy, super extra heavy like mill framing, and bridge framing.

Mill framing had to take into account many features like positioning of the powering unit, whether it was a turbine, one of the many types of water wheels, be it overshot, undershot, breast wheel, or barrel wheel, the later being one I am quite familiar with. Vibration of many sorts ie: rumbling (grinding stones), back and forth motion(Muley saw mills), with their extra long lateral x braces on each level. And the list goes on!

Church framing, especially the ceiling trusses, were s pectacular, and of many styles, some trusses strong enough to carry the immense weight of the steeples. One in particular that I documented had a span of 45 feet, and incorporated a bridge truss in its wide span not only to support the truss,s weight but the ponderous weight of the 50 foot high,heavy framed spire, it was something to behold.

I'm sure the parishioners sitting below , had no idea what was above their head!

Well I have to go but am enjoying these chats, thanks to the great people in TFG that make it. Possible !

Richard casselman
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/23 09:32 PM

Hello everyone tonite

Just to continue my ramblings about historic framing, I find it a fascinating topic, that like a road has many intersections leading to new knowledge on the subject depending on its style of building, or its many uses, which in most cases creates the type and strength of the framing used in its creation.

I'd just like to inject a personal observation, through my many years of actual association with this subject
First --to create a replica of a building structure destined for special preservation based on its special features, and maybe its probable demise through ownership, one needed to document every aspect of its original construction techniques, not a small task!, but having accomplished that ,acquiring the type and size of trees is also quite a task .

Let's remember right now, we need a true hewn surface, on each finished timber!, and you make no mistakes on the framing as you utilize each one, there are no spares!

Well got to go now

If you enjoy these chats, let the TFG know

Richard

NH
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/02/23 11:02 PM

NH: Sorry for the delay in getting the forum back up and running. It seems that the license had run out and it took me a while to find the correct webpage to renew it. Now, their system requires a $30 monthly fee to keep this up and running. I paid that fee to get it restored and open. As well as the new license fee (which I donated).
I have asked the guild to pay this fee to keep this forum going.
They have informed me that they do not wish to support this bulletin board forum anymore, because and I quote "no one uses it."
As the administrator, I check this site at least three times a day for any new subscribers. And usually see at least 30 to 40 people viewing the forum(s). In many different threads and stories.
I'm not totally sure what's going to happen.
They have asked me to "back up" all of these stories and threads. But honestly, I don't have a clue how to do that.
It's up and running now, but not sure for how long.
Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/23 12:38 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Hii Jim

We go back along way, although we have never met, you sure made my day when this forum began again.

I have been in touch with Eric and some of the staff there, to give me some explanation why this forum dissapeared, and repeated concerns that I had I thought maybe it was something I had done

Now I know the real story thanks to you!
And thanks for temporarily refreshing the site, out,of your own pocket!
I think you realize my thread wanders a little, but I like to lead people, and teach people, about how timberframing is not only about homes but encompasses great expanses of knowledge

I have to leave now but will return

Richard
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/23 01:38 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Jim you know I was looking down the list of members, which I had never done before, and was amazed by the number of names that have visited my thread,

No one can tell me that this forum is not used extensively, it by all means is, the proof is in the pudding, and I encourage as many as possible to express their interest by dropping by and saying hello and giving a thumb up for a sign of support!

Richard casselman
The northern hewer
Posted By: Jim Rogers

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/23 04:35 PM

Thanks Richard.

Jim Rogers
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/23 08:43 PM

Hello Jim

Just a note, please send me an email at, ---richard2@xplornet.ca--- just to establish a personal contact

Thanks in advance

Richard

NH
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/23 08:56 PM

Hi Jim and Richard (et al),

A lot of us spent a great deal of time building the knowledge base contained in this forum and it would be wrong to assume that just because no one is currently actively posting on this forum that it's relevance has diminished, however things have moved on.

Instead of everyone gathering together in one spot framers now have their own Facebook, Twitter or Instagram accounts where they can post with relative ease and remain firmly in control of persons who visit and content posted.

The fees quoted to run the forum seem very high. I know that the annual bill to run The Oxfordshire Woodland Group forum is about £25 ($30).

There are a good number of timber-framing afficionados who regularly frequent the timber framing section of The Forestry Forum demonstrating that there is still a need for an active forum on this topic.

Where did The TFG go wrong ?
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/03/23 09:00 PM

Hello everyone tonite


Just to pickup from a previous post, on the rescue of a disappearing historic structure,, and it's many challenges, I can honestly say, having personally experienced it, I watched the long 45 foot timbers roll in that would become the long mud sills and the upper main plates of a 3 bay barn, to become part of the permanent collection of buildings at UCV

What was really intimidating was the size. especially of the large ends. ( over 40 inches), knowing full well the finished square would only be 12inches, all the remainder waist!

The hewing process was on site, open to public scrutiny, no short cuts allowed!

Bye for now
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/04/23 02:26 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Thanks for coming on board ken, I can always count on you for constructive conversation, and I guess that is what makes the world go around.

I do wish that those who view silently, TTRAG related content expressed here, would once in awhile say hello (some do) and to them, i say thanks.

I also realize , probably not as much as you ken, that the world is changing in the area of access to knowledge both giving and taking, but having said that it is nice to listen to, original talk on the subject.

I more than anyone realize my thread wanders into areas that might not be classified as timberframing, but I found out any moons ago, that timberframing, with hewing as an integral part, is an end product of many historical structures, which couldn't exist without the knowledge to use the axes, chisels , mallets ,and I might say sweat, sore hands, and above all else one neighbour helping another.

Maybe I have it all wrong, but a creation, be it a home, outbuilding, mill, an A frame bridge , bakery, barn drive shed , is all mixed up with timberframing, and hewing as its binding agent

Thanks again for visiting

Richard casselman. UE
The northern hewer
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/06/23 02:41 AM

Hello everyone tonite

Just to carry on my thread relating to reconstruction of the Ross barn at UCV, It was one of the highlights of my career.
Many would say well it's only a barn, that was true! ,but, the reconstruction was to be carried out in front of the visiting public, using only historic tools, trained costumed staff, details of the original workmanship, such as timber sizes, type, pin placement, placement of foundation stones at strategic points, inside finish details, flooring, roof boarding, nails,siding and corner finish details, roofing shingles, roof eve finish details, rafter framing, large and small doors and blacksmith hardware for each,

Then the raising of the frame was accomplished using horse and manpower alone.
Time allotment for this whole project was set out for three seasons of 5 months each, a very strict deadline, and advertised in segments of progress.

I will return enjoy!
NH
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: historic hewing questionnaire - 02/07/23 10:23 PM

Hello everyone tonite

In my last post to continue, on the second level of the barn frame stood the purlin posts and their plates, that sat on their tops, tying everything together, with braces at each intersecting point.

I might point out these purlin plates were smallish in cross section, only measuring 7by8 inches, 48 feet in length. Handling them into position was tricky, because of their length, they could break very easily!

Got to leave now
Richard
Posted By: Gforce

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 11/28/23 06:58 PM

I think it was more about starving the indians than using the hides.
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 12/22/23 02:59 AM

Hello everyone tonite
Another year has rolled around, Merry Christmas to everyone dropping in throughout the year
I hope it brings you good health and good fortune
Thanks for coming on board Gforce, don't quite understand your post
I also would like to thank the guild and all their hard working staff for just being there, and promoting all aspects of working with wood/timber in the old and new ways. I always enjoyed the old near forgotten methods of construction,
I would like to hear from some of the old posters,there has been many up and downs but here we aren't!
Bye for now from the northern hewerp
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 01/19/24 02:52 AM

Well Mother Nature is knocking again, so I will be. Busy for a while going back and forth to. The hospital
In the mean time I wold like to thank everyone who has dropped by my blog it's been great getting to chat with everyone, I hope you have enjoyed my ramblings, it has been enjoyable , and I feel fortunate that I could have worked at , experienced, and passed along things that I feel are important and unfortunately dissapearing may each and everyone of you can carry on historical technology, be what ever it is! Bye for now

The northern hewer
Richard casselman
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 03/10/24 06:22 PM

Hello everyone out there tonite

It's the northern hewer
I've spent all fall and winter having an operation and then radiation from Jan to March , just finished that now recovery is next on. The list
Spent some down time remembering the times gone by seeing many of the old houses , barns , outbuildings bitting the dust
These buildings carried the unmistaken bit of the broadaxe,I photographed and documented as many as I could
Posted By: Ken Hume

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 03/11/24 07:33 AM

Hi Richard,

I hope that your treatment is successful.

Re timber-frame related health issues I wonder if your hewing activities have caused any physical deterioration of your hand / wrist joints, e.g. athritis ?

Ken
Posted By: northern hewer

Re: Hand Hewn Oak Beam - 03/11/24 06:03 PM

Hello everyone one tonite

Nice to hear from you Ken

No I don't think my hewing relates to my problem,,it certainly kept me in shape
I have skin cancer that is situated on the side of my head and down the side of my neck
I had it removed and just finished 33 radiation treatments this has been on going since last
November now I am,recovering
I never smoked even 1 cigarette, cancer caught me by surprise
I,hope you and your son stay healthy and watch all signs, I thought I just had an ingrown hair which was miss diagnosed and gave it a chance to spread
I I hope to have a few more years to be friends with people like you and yours and many others I've run across on my chatS
Thanks again for dropping by

Richard
The northern hewer
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