Cruck and scribe workshops, what to study?

I've signed up for the cruck and scribe workshops at Heartwood School at the end of the summer. Can anybody recommend any study material for either topic? Thank you.

Hi Dave,

If you mention the name Betty Bunker to Jack that will get his attention. She produced rather a nice self published book - "Cruck Buildings" some time ago that features various rude crucks discovered and recorded by her in and around Derbyshire and North Yorkshire. Unfortunately this book is long out of print and is now exceedingly rare but Jack does have a copy !

Freddie Charles gives a good insight into cruck construction in his hardback book "Conservation of Timber Buildings" (ISBN 1-873394-17-9) where he includes some reprint material from his earlier paper made with Walter Horn re Leigh Court Barn and also from his softback book "Medieval cruck-building and its derivatives: A study of timber-framed construction based on buildings in Worcestershire" published in 1967 by The Society for Medieval Archaeology. Monographs; no.2 by F. W. B Charles. This too is also a rare book but can be found on Amazon at :-

<http://www.amazon.co.uk/Medieval-cruck-b...4882&sr=1-9>

Madge Moran included quite a large number of cruck building drawings in her 2003 opus on "Vernacular Buildings of Shropshire" (ISBN 1-873827-93-8). John Crook provides an excellent chapter on crucks in "Hampshire Houses 1250 - 1700 - their dating and development" edited by Edward Roberts (ISBN 1-85975 633 6) which also contains some information from the earlier "Medieval Hall Houses of the Winchester Area (ISBN 0-86135011-1) by Elizabeth Lewis et all. Nina Jennings provides more information on rude crucks in her "Clay Dabbins - vernacular buildings of the Solway Plain" (ISBN 1-873124-38-3) and Nat Alcock's "CBA Research Report No 42 - Cruck Construction - an introduction and catalogue" (ISBN 0589-9036) is probably the essential reference guide for those considering undertaking any reserch and especially recording of crucks anywhere in the UK & Ireland. This too is out of print but I think that it is available to download for free as a pdf.

For practical guidance on how to build crucks sadly very little is available and one can only really turn to two sources - one is Jack Sobon and the other is Henry Russell with both having published articles in Timber Framing and Mortice and Tenon on this subject. I look forward to being corrected on this last point.

I continue with my own researches into this form of timber framed building construction and have prepared many 3D cruck models of buildings that I have recorded however publication of this material is I think still a long way off !

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, your knowledge on book is abundant, I can only dream of having the book you have available I am assuming the ones listed you have on hand?

I attended a short day long episode of cruck building with Sobon and others at a past conference in Vermont a number of years ago. On my drive home I had started building in the virtual world, and by Christmas we had a small cruck frame up, a blacksmith shop, just under 12'x12'.

Books can and will inspire, hands on will take it to another level. You will have a ball, Dave.

Tim

Hi Dave,

You have now well and truly dropped yourself right in it ! We need to see a digi pic of you in your cruck blacksmith shop forging the drift pins !

Re books - when you see em - buy em !

Crucks are quite and enigma. Nobody really knows where the design idea came from. A few have postulated about the origins of crucks but the jury is still out. I have found that the best place to discover and read articles about the development of crucks is within the pages of the Journal of the Vernacular Architecture Group - but be warned this can be more than a little bitchy and the VAGers are not noted for taking prisoners !

Regards

Ken Hume

I've heard that some crucks have square holes near the bottom. It appears that these holes may have been used in the raising, perhaps as a place to insert a type of lever. Anyone else ever heard of this?

Hi Dale,

When researching the book references for Dave Shepard earlier today I came across a photo of same in Fredie Charles's book -"Conservation of Timber Framed Buildings". These square holes are not just restricted to crucks and can also be found in other types of early building especially large aisled barns. The reasons for these holes cannot now be proved absolutely but some have taken a stab at their likely use with most postulating that this has something to do with raising but that might not be the case.

I am sure that Cecil Hewett showed us some examples of these in the Barley Barn at Cressing Temple during a Guild visit some years ago. He makes reference to these raising holes (now plugged) in "English Historic Carpentry" page 62 where he provides his own explanation about how these were likely used albeit a little difficult to understand without the aid of a drawing.

I have also found plugged holes in the centre of the sides of large tie beams in early medieval buildings suggesting that they were probably gripped with tongs when being raised using a single point lift.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, thanks so much for the insight.
Dale

Ken, just to be clear, were you referring to me, Tim, when you replied, Dave?

Tim

Thank you for the references Ken. I'm pretty wound up about the whole thing, as you can imagine. I'm still very new to timber framing, although I have been exposed to it since a very young age through visiting barns and Eric Sloane's books. Sloane may have had a few misconceptions, but his books were accurate enough for me at the time.

I have before me my new TFG members packet, as well as Historic Timber Joinery, Timber Frame Joinery and Design, I and II, as well as my first copies of Timber Framing and Scantlings. Yes, I am in deep.

Hi Tim,

Senior moment ! Yes I got it wrong. My apologies for that incorrect address.

Still want to see the photos though !

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, senior moments are coming almost as fast as singularity.

I will see what I can do. I think Dave would find it on topic.

Tim

I've seen mortises near the bottom of the main posts in the barn at Great Coxwell.

We've used a similar mortise when a tall object (in this case our gin pole) was laying down that we wanted to stand upright. If you insert a smaller post in the mortise near the foot of the post, then run the rope up and over the smaller post and down to the people pulling on the rope, then you can get a vertical lifting force from pulling a rope to aid those who are lifting manually. as the pole or bent comes up, eventually the smaller lifting post moves downward until it is no longer guiding the rope and the rope is pulling straight from the top of the object to the pullers.

I personally think that is what those mortises are for, but in the absence of proof...

What Gabel is talking about is called a raising pole, as shown here:

Hi Gabel,

Great Coxwell barn is more than a little different from Cressing Temple in that the main posts stand a long way up on top of stone columns. I would presume that scaffolding must have played a major part in the raising process at Great Coxwell.

There is a picture of Great Coxwell on page 27 of "Conservation of Timber Buildings" by Freddie Charles and the rectangular holes to which you refer at the bottom of the posts are clearly visible.

On page 30 of the same book there is a photo taken of the bottom of a post at Middle Littleton Tithe barn near Evesham where the original inserted wooden peg still remains in position even after 700 years. Freddie gives a description of the lifting process on this page but once again this must be conjectural.

What is it that stops post feet from slipping away when lifting in assembled bent fashion as is practiced today in North America ?

Regards

Ken Hume

Hi Jim,

You snuck your post in as I was writing mine. I understand your sketch but this is not what can be seen at Middle Littleton where only a short length peg (6" or so) is seen to be sticking out of a square or slightly rectangular hole.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken:
To stop a post from moving at the foot, sometimes is as easy as having a person "foot" the post. That is place his hands on the post, near the base, and hold it from sliding.

In larger frames, there are some blocks attached to the "deck" whatever that maybe, to hold the feet of the posts from sliding.

I've often heard them called "kickers", but never understood why they would be called that. You don't kick them away after they are done, and the aren't kicked into place, but they do stop the post from kicking out..... so maybe it is a good name....

Jim Rogers

PS. I may have some pictures of these if you needed to see them....

nice image, Jim -- illustrates my words perfectly.

Ken,

Yes, at Great Coxwell the height of the post feet up on those stone columns would have necessitated the entire Xframe be built on an elevated scaffolded platform and then the raising posts inserted in the now empty mortises, the ropes run over the top and dozens of oxen or hundreds of men or some pretty large windlasses or all of the above would be ready to take the strain and up it comes slowly....

I would really love to go back in time to see those massive cross-frames being raised.

Hi Gabel, Dave & Jim,

Further to my earlier posts I came across a much underutilised book in the collection - A Guide to Medieval English Tithe Barns by James W. Griswold (an American). This book was first published in 1999 by Peter Randall in Portsmouth New Hampshire (ISBN 0-914339-73-7) and features Great Coxwell, Little Middleton and Cressing Temple and of particlar interest is an illustration by Mary & Freddie Charles on page 16 showing a possible lifting scenario for Little Middleton cruck frames. The illustration does not seem to take account of the post bottom pegs even though this is recognised to have been present as a raising aid by the Charles. A lot of work went into making this hand drawn perspective view of the cruck raising apparently to no great avail.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken,

I have that book and remember the drawing you refer to. It struck me as not drawn by a timber framer, but interesting to look at nonetheless. I'll have to get it out later and have another look.

The photo is a little on the dark side. The stained glass was a swap for some lumber.
The blue jay is for one of my boys, he was 6 years old when he cut the sills and braces with hand tools, his name is Jay. He is taller than I am now.

Tim

[img]http://[IMG]http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q393/timber500/IMG_0012.jpg[/img][/img]

beautiful picture
nice building

That's awesome! Would be fun to pound some iron in that shop.

Here's the link to the pdf that Ken mentioned:
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/library/cba/rr42.cfm?CFID=2210899&CFTOKEN=39965713

That's a sweet cruck Tim. I keep showing them to clients in the hopes that I can cut one on of these days.

And Dave, you're going to have a good time in that class, I took it a few years ago. I was drinking beer with the person who was buying the frame last Friday, and I think they backed out, so it may be up for sale again. Don't know if it's designed yet, but I believe it was 12x16 in past classes. Let me know if anyone's interested. Here's the frame we cut in the workshop:

Very nice. The frame for the workshop is going to have three bents. Thanks for all the iformation, everyone.

Hi Tim & Brad,

Brad,

I note that the workshop cruck did not employ any long wall braces. The 3 bay cruck that we will finish measuring this weekend does not have these either but it does have large windbraces in the roof.

Are the cruck mantles (dropped tie beams) one piece or are these interrupted. Given that you have used 4 pegs I would surmise interrupted ?

How did you fasten the bottom of the wall posts to the backs of the cruck blades - long pegs ? This was the method used on Saturday's cruck and it appears to have held up for 600 years.

Tim,

I am thoroughly impressed.

Is your mantle beam one piece lapped over the blades ?

Regards

Ken Hume

Thanks Ken.

Yes, it is a spindly little thing and half lapped. That was the first thing I noticed on the other frame pictured above, the interrupted mantle beam/tie. Don't tell anyone, I used screws to fasten the post to the base of the crucks, lapped and screwed. I didn't notice the absence of wall bracing, 'til now.

Tim

Dave,

Wish I could join you in that work shop. Every spare minute I have is spent trying to complete my TF addition before the coming Thanksgiving. Scribing and the Cruck frame work shop are on my list of things to do in the near future. The week long work shops I've take were some of the best vacations ever!
Stop in and say hello. I live on the bottom of Washington Mtn. Rd. just down the road from the Heartwood school, ask Jack or Brad for directions.

Karl Hines

Tim,

You should put that awesome picture on a brochure, business card, web site, etc... A great image to promote both yourself and your work.

Betty Bunker's "Cruck Buildings" is headed my way as we speak. My local book dealer was able to find two copies.

Hello everyone

Just had to stop in and see these wonderful pics and the great comraderie going on inthis thread.

A few posts back Ken was wondering what kept the feet of the bents from kicking out as the frame was being lifted, well I have reconstructed and raised a fair number of historic buildings over the years using man power assisted with gin poles you name it, in every instance what I did was to position one man with a good 4 foot pointed pry bar at the foot of each vertical post inserting it into the mortise hole, and as the post and bent was raised he would just gently guide it into its final resting spot, you would just hear a dull thud as it dropped into its position as the weight of the bent came to bear on it as it neared its vertical.

good thread

NH

Hi Dave,

Betty's book requires close inspection. I look forward to your opinions about the "eyes".

Regards

Ken Hume

It's going to take about a month to get here, it's coming from somewhere near you. There was one in the U.S., but it was more than three times the money, and was also going to take a month. It will indeed get close scrutiny.

Ken,

We actually did one tie as continuous and half-lapped, the other mortise and tenoned and discontinuous. An educational experience. I guess I never noticed the lack of wall braces.

The wall post and cruck blade each have their own tenon, and are skew pegged together (see pic). Ken, do you have any comments on skew pegging (how they hold up over time, etc). Don't see it much (or at all) over hear with our boring rectlinear frames.

Hi Brad,

That picture is quite informative and as you will probably already know the methods employed to fix wall posts to crucks blades is many and varied.



I have inserted a digi pic above of the skewed square pegs employed at the top joint between a truncated cruck blade and half lap collar. You will note that bark can still be seen on the outside face of the cruck blade and a profiled make up piece has been added and then a large packer on top of that to align the side purlins from cross frame to cross frame. You can see how the purlin has twisted or rotated in its 600 years of service life. The black on the elm timbers is from the original open hall fire smoke.



The second picture is of the same cruck blade but taken from the opposite side and from lower down - about 4 feet from the ground floor. The cruck blade is painted. The drilled hole that is seen to emerge from the side of the cruck blade has been made using some kind of spoon bit auger (Jim, please add any comments and / or advice on the tool employed please). It demonstrates that the long pegs used to secure the cruck wall post to the back of the cruck blade (i.e. as per your photo above) were also set on the skew but the pegs did not reach right through the blade and appear to have stopped short. I think that the end of the peg can just be seen about to emerge on the left.

One does see a mixture of both mortice & tenon, lap and simple skew peg attachment of components in the same cruck frame and thus these joint selection decisions are obviously made by the carpenter based on the materials to hand.

Our recording team get quite excited by the relative simplicity of the design of the cruck frame being recorded and quite a few of them suggested that we build our own cruck frame. I have a woodlot that stands idle most of the time so all we need is someone to fell the trees, hew out the blades, cut the frame and raise it. Anyone who is keen to have a go please get in touch - no money required.

Regards

Ken Hume

p.s. we found almost no evidence of piece marking of timbers but plenty of hewing and framing leveling stations.

I angled the pegs in the lapped saddle on my blacksmith shop. You have to picture how the timbers will dry and the new shape and movement they will take on and apply the pegs counter to this to add more resistance and enhance the holding power. Mental acrobatics for my dyslexic/ADD mind, I have to be completely present to perform or I start to wander. I think I got them right.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Excellent point about the shrinkage - I hadn't even thought about that effect. If the practice shown in the first photo is correct then the pegs will be pinched together in one plane by the collar and then again in another by the cruck blade which are not quite set at 90 degrees to each other so maybe the cone or teepee shape that the pegs are currently seen to form handle this best. I shall keep an eye out more examples.

Regards

Ken Hume

Received "Cruck Buildings" today. Ken, I did get a rise out of Jack when I mentioned I had ordered it. I will be perusing it during the next few evenings. It was a former Sheffield University library book, in great condition.

The frame for the cruck workshop will be two bents, according to the paperwork I received, not three, as I had previously thought.

Hi Dave,

It might be a surprise to most but Sheffield is / was the cruck capital of the UK so your book is from a good source however why should they be disposing of such a gem from their library collection ?

Check out page 19 re "the eyes". Keep this secret to yourself.

Please keep us appraised of the cruck workshop and it would be nice to see a few digi pics.

Regards

Ken Hume

re: eyes. Very interesting, to be sure. I will have my digi camera at the workshops.

Didn't your mum tell you it wasn't nice to whisper. What is up with the eyes?

Tim

All,
The Heartwood cruck frame that Brad shows certainly should have, and probably did get, longitudinal braces. The frame may heve been raised at the end of the course and due to lack of time the braces were added later, along with the wall studs for windows and doors, later. This is one reason why the scribe course follows the cruck course, in case we don't get to all the little bits.

Cruck frame course starts Monday. Will be polishing my tools in the morning.

Hi Dave,

We are looking forward to seeing some digi pics.

I will be particularly interested to discover what mention the course mentors and teachers make about the selection / choice / species of trees and conversion methods to be employed to make the cruck blades and how these choices affect layout and scribing.

Regards

Ken Hune

I've got my batteries charged and an empty memory card.

I've made a slide show of a few the pictures I took of the workshop. It goes too fast, but you can stop it and move forward and back.

Thanks for sharing....

Hi Dave,

Excellent shots of the cruck event. What did you learn that you can share with us ?

For example, can you explain to us why so much material had to be removed from the lower outside of the cruck blades ?

The blade appears to have been positioned and aligned on the inside edge of the sill resulting in the large cruck blade overhang on the outside of the sill ?

Could the post not have been brought down to enter the back of the blade in order to preserve more of the cruck blade ?

Regards

Ken Hume

I have a question on how the cruck blades were sawn? Were the curves on the blades sawn with a bandsaw? It looks like it rained a little.

On the 3rd picture, or so, you can see the two tenons, the post tenon and cruck tenon, it doesn't look like too much of either was compromised. Ken, are you asking Dave why the post doesn't set on top/back side of the cruck and not go all the way to the sill? That is the way my posts land, They don't sit on the sill. Did the instructors give options?

Ken, what do you see as the typical configuration in your part of the world?

Tim

Hi Tim,

Crucks are highly variable in their construction configuration often varying frame to frame in the same building and so there is probably no correct text book way of building a cruck but one can see some methods more often than others. Keep in mind that for example in the whole of Olde Hampshire where I live that there are only about 100 surviving cruck frames and that these are not all by any means complete i.e. in some cases only remnants remain and just possibly most of the less than perfect patterns have disappeared altogether. Another interesting observation is that most of the survivors fall into a date range between 1375 - 1425 with a few exceptions outside this window generally somwhere around 1550 and then nothing. So with some good fortune and good health then potentially all these crucks could all have been built by the same person (don't quote me on that).

One of the clues that can give one a hint that a building might be a cruck frame is the slight step above ground level made on the back of the cruck blade where the post intersects and sits on the back of the blade.

Generally I think that it is the shape of the cruck blades themselves that tend to determine the frame pattern and so I wondered what it was in the case of this workshop that was driving the design ? For example, could the outside edge of the cruck not have be laid up to the outside edge of the sill and then a tenon made at right angles to the long sill to sit in a mortice in the cross sill thereby helping to hold both these components together. Some allowance would need to be made for cross grain versus long grain shinkage. Why are the cruck tenons not proper 4" long tenons pegged to the sill ? - using stub tenons would make it easier to raise but in the longer term will permit this joint to come apart if the sill subsides ?

As you have observed these blades are very regular and it might well be that good straight timbers were profiled to produced curved blades.

What's the answers Dave ?

Regards

Ken Hume

We started with three book-matched pairs of curved timber. The smallest pair used for the tie beam. We hewed some of the work, and used a chainsaw with a base plate to saw some. I will try to remember to ask about the post running to the sill, and not being mortised into the cruck. There is no room in the sill for 4" cruck or post tenons, as there is a mortise underneath them for the end sill.

Hi Dave,

Could it be that the post tenon is occupying the slot that the cruck tenon should be sitting in ?

Maybe that's why we see cruck posts sitting on the back of cruck blades ?

Regards

Ken Hume

I was told that it is more or less a personal choice as to which style you use. Running the post to the sill is a stronger means of carrying the plate load. I did see some slides of posts joined into the backs of crucks in the slide show.

thanks for sharing the pics Dave... can almost hear the HEEE OH HEAVEs