Forum Censorship

I note that all of our discussions from December 2012 on improving Guild membership have now been airbrushed from history and also for example, if you perform a search for "Swanger" this will return zero hits other than hopefully that contained within this post.

I am more than a little annoyed that someone has chosen to impose their will, thoughts and exasperations over all of who are regular vistors and contributors to this forum without the common courtesy of prior consultation.

Regards

Disgruntled

I have just checked and now find 44 hits returned for a search using "Swanger" with the last one being in 2008. I seem to recall that Derek made over 1000 posts so that means that a huge number of his posts must have been removed.

Ken Hume

per his request.

As Jim said, per his request.

I don't know what happened to the 2012 thread. I will have a look for a back up - we recently had a serious database issue that required a move to a new host and I'm sure we may have lost a few things in the process.

I had personal contact with Derek recently. He did say to me, he is not wanting further involvement with these forums.

I also feel the need, in his defense, to say that he was quite civil in our conversations.

Everyone including Derek must understand the following:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use these forums to post any material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.

Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless these forums and agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).

As mentioned some thread may have got lost in the transfer.

Jim Rogers

PS. Every user agrees to this when they sign on.

And here.... dedicated to those that run the forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMx1fmz4a0g

Frankly speaking I am appalled by the action of completely removing all traces of Derek from the site. Jim you are gutting the site for somehow conflating the rule of rules above the commonsense concern of preserving the threads, complete with full context and continuity. Derek, I believe, had close to 1300 posts in hundreds of threads, so now, how is the forum improved by removal, when what is left is incomplete and confusing threads.

I know all about the ways Derek has been colored due to some trollish behavior but the forums long standing record has been fouled, for no good reason. The forum is in my view a community property that people have been contributing to since 1999, including Derek. All the contributions should be respected as a record and as property of the community once said posts are accepted as valid posts. In other words, Derek gave up control when he posted and the community accepted and interacted with Derek. Years have passed since Derek posted and offensive content has been removed. So I suppose in your eyes, Jim, that Derek is a troll or worse, therefore, any trace of Derek is tainted. Ohh, so Derek told you to remove posts, do you always do what a "troll" wants you to do?

This is not a privately owned forum such as the Forestry Forum, you moderators cannot and should not throw away community property because you can quote a rule in bold face type.

Fix it.

Roger:
Before you go flying off the handle, I didn't do anything. I am only a moderator not an administrator.
I didn't delete any of Derek's posts.

Derek, has been emailing me asking me to remove other peoples posts.

I have not done that either.

So get the facts straight before you get hot under the collar.

Jim Rogers

PS. if things are missing it's not my fault.

Jim

Sorry about reading between the lines and leaping to conclusions, one of many faults of mine. I will refrain from fanning the flames.

There does seem to be a focused wipeout, I look forward to an account.

All,

I wiped djswan and 47ronin. And I deleted the previous thread. Jim had nothing to do with it aside from weighing in, and he wasn't comfortable with my take on the situation.

If you wish to know details of how this came about - call or email me. I am not going to post about it in public - for many reasons.


FWIW, this property is owned and paid for by the TFG. Yes, it is a community resource. Yes, we should strive to maintain a record of contributions here. But in the end, this was a decision that I hope will help us move on from this issue that seems to reappear over and over again.

Hi All,

I am not at all happy with what has just happened and though earlier Roger got a bit hot under the collar he is in principal correct. Moderation is just that - moderate not extreme. Joel's phrase was "to moderate with the lightest possible touch" and that mantra was and still is correct.

Many of us weighed in and contributed in good part to Derek's posts. The only posts that needed to be removed were the ones that caused offence to some including me.

In case there is any doubt in anyone's mind this is not about Derek and I regret mentioning his name however he was an obvious choice to search upon to see what impact the recent change of forum hosting service has had upon the forum and as freely admitted by Mike he appears to have been the finger on the trigger.

After a long absence I have of late been trying to contribute again to the forum in an honest and earnest endeavour to help promote the usefulness of this forum in the vain hope that this might stimulate interest by subscribers into becoming Guild members but if all of that work can be consigned to the trash can because someone gets upset and can't control themselves then I think that posting here might well be a waste of time.

The vast majority of forum posts form a Guild resource that vistors, subscribers and members can search to find information and in my opinion destroying this demonstrates a distinct lack of respect for us all.

Mike I think that you owe all of us an apology for your recent actions.

Ken Hume

Personally at this point, I feel like the decision of the moderators has been made, and we would do best to support it. We can voice our opinions, and we have, but if we argue, it's not going to help increase involvement.

I understand the decision made and why it was made. I may not agree with it, but I don't have to. It's not my decision to make. I signed up to the board's terms and agreed to them just like we all did.
The fact is, the forum is public-access but it's not a public forum. That is, it's not run by a random community, it is run by the Timber Framer's Guild and a small body of moderators they have appointed or otherwise given authority to. Those people make the decisions. Being an extension of the guild, that is exactly how it should be.

If the guild doesn't want something on their own board, which they pay for, they have the right to make that decision. As a member of the guild, I have the right to state my opinion, but it's still up to the board. I abide by their decision.

I'll stick up for Derek personally. He's got rough edges but when you get around them, he's an interesting guy, with good ideas and a lot of knowledge. Yes he's upset me a time or two, but we've gotten around that and he will stand up to his actions.
But I understand the decision has been made, and I also know Derek himself actually requested some of these things be removed. Keep that in mind. Derek told me personally, he doesn't want to be involved in the forums at this point. But he asked me if I would say a word or two on his behalf, so I have done that.

As active members of the guild it is our monies that pay for this forum, or am I mistaken?. And who is the Guild? As I have pointed out the board is made up of unknown people, to many or some, and they are making decisions for the working guild members. This adjustment didn't settle well with some. DL, you are the Guild. Without you/me there would be no Guild or small body of moderators. Who is the real the authority?

"The fact is, the forum is public-access but it's not a public forum. That is, it's not run by a random community, it is run by the Timber Framer's Guild and a small body of moderators they have appointed or otherwise given authority to. Those people make the decisions. Being an extension of the guild, that is exactly how it should be."

That is true, Tim, but by investing in the guild and participating in it we do willingly give the authority to handle our money to a few.

If I don't know the board members, or who they are, or what they are doing, that is not their fault. They publish all of this (as they must, by law) and it is a matter of public record.

The guild is not a direct democracy. Direct democracies are ineffective.

We have a voice, yes, but it is a voice by consent. Our power, as individual members, is that if the leadership does not do the things we want them to, we can replace them. But when they are in leadership, I feel like we should try and be as supportive as we can.

In this time of struggle in the guild there are going to be unpopular decisions made, there are going to be mistakes made. The worst thing we can do is to let it divide us.

Without a board consisting of members that are unknown to some, the other alternative would be to put all decisions to a full vote of all members. This would be a challenge. This would not enable the guild to do what it needs to do to survive

That said, I do think there is a lot more guild members can be doing. Honestly, I think the apathy of many members makes the job of directors hard. We don't tell them what we want, so they are left to make the decisions more or less in the dark.

Maybe we should start a campaign -write the board of directors, send them our thoughts, our goals, dreams, etc. Show them what the GUILD wants.

I was asked to put this link here.

The point being, I think, that Mr. Swanger doesn't hold a grudge against us or hate the guild or anything like that.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?69907-Timber-Framers-Guild

DL said:
"That said, I do think there is a lot more guild members can be doing. Honestly, I think the apathy of many members makes the job of directors hard. We don't tell them what we want, so they are left to make the decisions more or less in the dark.

Maybe we should start a campaign -write the board of directors, send them our thoughts, our goals, dreams, etc. Show them what the GUILD wants."

DL...AMEN...I'm standing and ovating. Your BoD WANTS and NEEDS your input. A properly functioning Board of any Org represents the needs and point of view of the dues paying members who provide its reason to exist.

Do it here...http://www.tfguild.org/about/guild-personnel... frequently...

Hi folks,

I am still digesting all of this...and have much to think about...

First, we must hold "harmless" Jim...He is our primary moderator at this time, and if you don't mind the analogy...he can only "heard us cats," only so well...Thank you Jim for what you do...

We are at another crucible at this time within the guild...For me, I see it as a positive one. I remember back in the late 80's and early 90's we had a clear bifurcation between the "academics" among us and those more focused on the 'business of timber framing"...This too caused descent, along with other internal challenges...This is the nature of any young organization and believe it or not...we are young...

Now we are looking at some very positive events coming down the "pipeline." A search for a new full time ED for the guild, a merging back together possibly of the academic and the business side of our world that is Timber Framing. Each of us, whether Master Timberwright, Apprentice, or just an avid fan for this "Art and Craft," can place hope to our futures here. Yet, each of us must take ownership in being more involved to whatever level we possibly can and supporting those that have "tried" to do well by us all...

So, in this case if an 'error' in judgement has been made administratively to "erase" all traces of a member from this forum has been made...we will learn from that mistake and must move on. If we can repair the record, and the emotions behind it, then that will take place I am sure. Mike, I know for a fact, would not take any action lightly and will fix anything he is able to, yet must also regard the wishes of a member's choice as well.

I am sure there are lessons to learn here and we are all still trying (or atleast I am) to figure it out...

Respectfully Submitted,

j