Timber Cart & Wrench

Just a couple of general survey questions.

Would you purchase a heavy duty timber cart specifically designed for timber framing if one were available? Estimated price is $450-500 for a 1000lb.+ capacity cart with reversable/removable tow handle and adjustable timber stops.

The other item that may become available is an adjustable timber wrench. The working design allows for jaw openings from ~5 to ?? inches by halfs.

These items would be all powder coated steel box beam an tubular constructuion with comfort grips and highway rated pneumatic tires.

Thank you for any input you have to offer.

I personally don't need a cart as I already have one(Kubota L48), but what is a timber wrentch? Is it for assembling timber that have twisted? I have seen one of those made from two pieces of plywood and a 2x6. I just hate mentioning plywood, uggh.

Dave

Hey Dave
Instead of plywood you could just glue up layers of 1 inch wood to make a laminated piece of timber to meet you needs. Well it is not "ply" wood anyways! :p
Bob

Raphael, that timber cart seems quite pricey, but yea, sounds very interesting. Any photo's? Are these going to be custom made just for you, or can the general public get access to one? Ron

The price is just a rough guesstimate (hopefully high) on my part as there isn't a fabricated prototype... So no real photos either, but the design is roughly based on my wooden timber cart with some much needed improvements.



As for availability, that's part of why I'm posing the question, to see if there might be enough demand to add it to an existing product line.

A timber wrench would be a non-marring cant hook like device for turning timbers on the saw horses to facilitate layout and cutting.

sign me up, I'd be very interested in both.

I've been gathering materials to build a cart for myself, based on various pictures I've seen on this website. I've bought those filled wheelbarrow tires, which are pricy but will never go flat. I've also decided I like the idea of a handle (like on the cart timber goddess posted), so that I can wheel it around easier when empty. I had planned to have the handle extend out from the top of the cart, not the bottom, so that it wouldn't get in the way when loaded and moving timbers. I don't see any need to have the handle reversable. Finally, I think I'll weld mine out of tubing instead of making it out of wood as it seems that I could then use a longer, thinner, handle. I'll post pictures and costs of materials when it warms up so I can weld it in my cold garage.

I work solo so the low handle holds the cart in a near vertical position while I wrestle the timber. When the weight of the timber comes down on the cart the handle comes up off the ground.

The design on the table calls for a reciever allowing the handle to be removed so it's completely out of the way when moving a timber. The handle will be curved and terminate in a T so one way up it's acting as your ground hold the other way up it's a convienant tow handle and gives you ground clearance while moving the timber. It could also act as another point of contact for your less than straight (crown up) timbers.

This flipping of the handle was my primary focus when it came to it's design, being able to feed it into either end of the reciever is just a bonus convienance since you can decide which way the cart will flop as you remove the timber.

Raphael, any idea when either the cart or the wrench would be available for purchase?

Their last product went from the drawing board through prototype, testing, redesign and into production in about 5 weeks. I'd say the developement time line for the cart should be the same or less and the wrench just a matter of a week maybe two.

The biggest hold up right now is financial, they just bought an entire product line so aren't in a good position to speculate and I'm beyond broke at the moment so I can't afford to back a prototype cart for at least a month. I'm sending them a mock up of the wrench next week.

I am very interested in acquiring a high quality timber cart, so if you or anyone else makes this kind of product available please let me in on it. I will say that 400-500 dollars seems pricey though. tb Has anyone seen or used those fancy log/timber carriers by the company Future forestry. They seem quite helpful as they not only carry the load but pick it up off the ground as well. They are also quite light weight as I hear, but they are also pricey and may possibly cause some minor damage to the timbers in the process???? tb

Raphael,

Thanks for looking into this. I'm in the same boat regarding my tool budget being maxed for a while, but I am game for a timber cart in the next year.

I'll be looking for a cart without a towing hitch, as I don't live on a road and forest here is too soft for machinery. Anything real big will be moved with a winch.

I just saw a fine design for a smaller cart following the draw boring thread, posted by Collin Beggs, made by John Snow in the UK:
http://www.windysmithy.co.uk/html/handtools.htm

A quick question. Have you considered aluminum? I suppose steel is cheaper to fabricate, but if I end up hiring someone local, I would use the local aluminum welding expertize.

Best,

Zach

Zach. thanks for the cool link to Jon Snow's site. It is really a great site. tb

Hello All,

Jon Snow's carts are great -- as is everything else he makes. He makes them to order based on the height of your horses. I wish we had a smith over here that would cater to framers. I met Jon at the UK Carpenter's Fellowship gathering this past summer. He had a forge set up and was letting people fool around. Great fun. The guild should have more stuff like that at our conferences.

That style cart can be seen in nearly every framing yard in the UK, I believe. It works great. If I had a welder, I would have already made one.

Gabel

Gabel, I am not sure what you are looking for, but I have been considering making some tools for timber framing. I have made some hewing dogs and hook pins already, and have a couple of people interested in buying some. If there was interest I could make small batches of tools.

Dave

Lon Tyler used to sell a GREAT timber/log cart. Light but strong, I've handled green 32' DF 10x10's, alone, once they were up on horses. Lon has sold the business to a nephew & I've lost the new contact info!!
Best to contact Lon @ lon@ltyler.com or 541-367-6726 & he'll steer you to the right spot. There may be pics of it from the LISEC Bayles project.

I wasn't sure what to expect from this post. I originally though he was talking about a tool cart.
I see now that it's a very good idea, though I seriously question if people would be willing to pay $500. You basically need 2 carts. one for the rear and one for the front to steer. The rear one should be fixed wheels like this

The front cart should be very similar only should have a swivel table on top that will allow you to turn the front wheels, plus it should have a steering/pulling handle. This way you can use the same axles and wheels for front and back and nearly identical carts, only adding the swivel table and handle to the front cart. Perhaps it may be more economical to sell cart kits where people do the welding themselves? Or even better if it's a bolt together design. You would be able to save the customer money on shipping by shipping it in pieces or being able to pack it more compactly, and saving the customer the assembly cost. It would be much easier to make the pieces than the whole assembly too. Also consider using angle iron bolted together for the top hoop. this would allow the customer to drill holes and bolt 2x wood on top so as not to marr the timbers. This could be a suggestion to the customer as it would be too easy for them to do this as opposed of having 4 pieces of 2X shipped across the country with the kit. The bolting holes could be pre punched in the angle iron at little cost. Can you tell I'm a product designer/engineer?

brad

why would you need two carts? The ones I have used were a little different from the one you have pictured, but I believe worked on the same principle. Take your timber out of your stack with your big machinery, then place the cart right at the timbers center of gravity. Then the cart works as as a fulcrum at the center of the timber. If you want to turn left: the right wheels moves forward, the left wheel moves backward. Then you push it along until you get to your sawhorses, guide the timber and push down on your end, which lifts the other end. Set the away end down and lift your end on to the other sawhorse.

You're right for shorter timbers. I guess I also had my 38 footers in mind.

I was going to build a swiveling front cart to go with my current cart but realized I'd be dropping a lot of timber given the terrain I have to deal with.

This ugly kluge worked well for long timbers:


Thank you all for your input.

The timber cart Scott mentioned is one of the best timber framing tools you can buy. It is in daily use at the shop and at job sites. It's beauty lies in it's maneuverability. It has a counterbalance which keeps it upright at all times. It doesn't have legs or handles, the timber is the handle and you can tip it forward or back and pivot 360 effortlessly. This allows you to weave your way into some really tight corners of the shop. It was designed for logs and then an adapter was added to carry up to 12" timbers. I have used it to haul cherry logs out of the woods, down a bumpy trail and onto a trailer. I've also used it to move 30 foot 10x10's around the shop. I'll look for a good picture to post if anyone is interested. I think they are selling for around $350.00. Lon Tyler's nephew Kenny is running the business now and his number is 541-968-5004.

got some info on Tyler's timber cart, I like it a lot, but am concerned about it's stated 500 lb. load capacity. Scott and Nathan, the monster timbers you have moved on the Tyler cart would seem to exceed it's weight capacity. I have some 8x12x24' red oak timbers for an upcoming project that need to be toted around some, and I'm sure they weigh a lot more than 500 lbs. I will call the Tyler's for more info, just wondered how the cart was able to handle those size timbers you guys moved.

I have used the Tyler cart and I would not put an oak 8x12-24 on it. I am sure I have overloaded it, but I have also seen one give out -- heavy load and it hit a rut and the wheel gave in. The Tyler cart can be picked up one handed -- I like something a little heavier.

Gabel

Gabel, thanks for your input. I am in need of a good timber cart very soon. I work alone and have no access to heavy equipment. Is there a cart out there that you, or anybody else would recommend that could handle an 8x12x24? Or am I expecting to much from a cart? Feel free to send me a private e-mail if you like.

Ron,
I don't see how you are going to move that timber even if you had a timber cart that could carry it. In general white or red oak is about 62 lbs per cubic foot. Your beam is about 16 cubic feet which means it weighs about 992 lbs. Unless you are a contestant in the strong man competition, you aren't going to be able to lift even one end up. I know because I am fairly strong on a deadlift and could barely muscle up one end of a 12X12X 12ft seasoned oak beam a couple weeks ago (about 744lbs). The force to lift one end varies between a bit more and a bit less than half that depending on the angle you lift it. that's one heck of an oak beam you have there. You're gonna need a bigger boat...ah, I mean transport method.

If I knew what they weighed, I wouldn't have carried those 8x8x10 RO timbers out of the mill the other day!

Dave

Hey Brad,.. yea, I kinda figured as much,thought I'd float the question out there though. thanks

In my opinion, the basic geometry of the Tyler cart is ideal. For heavier loads I'd build a beefier frame/axle and use something on the order of a motorcycle wheel, it seems a narrow wheel spins more easily. The bracket that the timber actually rests on has 2 small "ears" that let you "hook" the timber as you lift it off one horse & rotate the cart in line. On the Tyler cart you can remove these brackets & use the steel saddles to move round material.
I'm thankful that there's not much in the way of oak timber in this part of the world, softwoods are heavy enough.

The wheels on the Tyler cart give it its 500 lb limit. They are rated at 250lbs each. The monster timbers I've wheeled around were Douglas Fir. On a concrete slab and graded gravel yard, going slow and avoiding potholes they groaned but performed nobly. You have to know the limits of any tool. Day in, day out the cart has proved itself to be extremely useful. It works great for 90% of the fir timbers I use. It's lightness and maneuverability save material handling hours. Also Picking the cart up with one hand and throwing it into the back of a truck to go to the job site is not such bad thing sometimes.

These are the wheels I wanted to use on my next timber cart:


They are ~24" diameter (plus tires) and rated for over 1000lb. each, but Kevin at LogRite convinced me the cost per wheel would price the cart well beyond what anyone would be likely to pay.

Just the bare bones Gateway Arch is $1100.

Raphael, are you still going to proceed with those plans for a cart and wrench?

Raphael, Nice wheels! How much per?

Ron- I definately intend to pursue this, but haven't recieved any responce to the last message I left.

I do have to make a run over to Layman's (our local welding and steel fabricators) at the end of this month to get a set of post brackets made up. If I haven't heard anything definitive from LogRite at that point I'll run idea past the Laymans and at least get an estimate on cart cost and have them make me a couple of wrenches. I'm hoping they are able to recommend a reasonably priced powder coating outfit.

Scott- I've been kicking myself for not getting a price on those when I had Kevin face to face. :rolleyes:
I just sent another message and asked about that as well (This time I bypassed Kevin and sent it to his wife). I'm not sure of the details of their deal with Future Forestry (the website www.futureforestry.com hasn't been updated). Since you are in OR. you may be able to contact the fellow who started the business. Mark Havel is his name, from what I've heard he's "a heck of a nice guy".
If it still works their toll free number is: 888 258 1445. The local number (in Willamina) is: 503 876 4488

Hello Raphael. I noticed that you haved acquired a product of future forestry. I was wondering if you had any feedback on their products as I have been meditating on purchasing an arch or two with the intent of using it for logging and also the subsequent timber framing??. Any insight would be very helpful as they are quite the investment. tb

That picture is actually from their website... The Gateway arch is one I have been coveting but haven't had the cash to invest in.

I did get a chance to play their new Mark 7 briefly... I had it for a week but we got hammered with snow the day after I picked it up. :rolleyes:

The Mark 7 has tongs that can be positioned in a low or high position for small or large logs (up to 25" diameter), can be equipped with a tow hitch or a long T handle for manual work. I was quite impressed with it's performance, using the T handle I was able to pick up and manuever (up hill) a ~1250# log single handedly.

The arches are now being produced by LogRite (makers of the worlds best peavies and cant hooks) so the Mark 7 is wearing LogRite blue. I've seen the entire line of arches there and can attest to their solidity and construction quality.

LogRite also has a decent line of timber framing hammers, which is why I thought a timber cart and timber wrench would make a good addition to their tool lineup.

I have a gallery of Mark 7 arch pictures on the Foresty Forum, otherwise it's so new it doesn't appear on the websites yet:
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1277

I think for a timber framer the junior arch in combination with one of the larger models (which one depends on your existing equipment, tractor, atv, winch etc.) would be the hot setup. They have a DVD available that goes over the entire Future Forestry line in detail.

So I am now looking for a timber cart and I remembered this old post. It doesn't look like there is one readily available in the US for purchase?
Rafael, how far have you gotten in making any? You are right, $500 does seem a little steep for guys who are always looking for the most frugal way... Maybe a better alternative is to come up with a free set of plans? In looking for cheap alternatives for building one, I'm thinking about using baby spare car tires. I've got a number of them that I use in my shop for rolling cars around durning restoration. You can pick them up relatively cheap in the bone yard, but I'm not sure how much load they can take. I'd have to fabricate a hub/axle from a car spindle....

I built one using the drag axle from a small foreign car. chopped two feet out of the axle and welded it back together. Then added two 2x6's parallel to the wheels and sitting where the springs used to be and fastened them with "u" bolts. Then added two more 2x6's perpendicular to the first two and a handle, done. It cost approximately $50 to make.
If I can find time to modify it I would probably shorten the axle another foot or so. I also removed all the brake parts.

I had a really nifty one I made from motorcycle wheels, which have the bearings built in. I got them from a junk yard, and they were a matched set of front wheels with tires from what I think were Honda CB400 street bikes. The large diameter wheels are really nice for rough terrain or deep sawdust. Mine did double duty as a small trailer I could pull behind the truck, which also made it convenient to bring to job sites. That's how it ultimately met its demise, though (but not my fault :)). CB.



Meanwhile, you can get a lighter-duty one here:
http://www.timbercarts.com/

Or you could order a set of wheels and build your own:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200331764_200331764