Pencils

Just curious, what kind of pencil do you use for layout.

I sometimes like to use a drafting pencil with a nice hard lead in it like a 4H to maintain sharpness and to some extent cut a little.

What do you use?

P.S. This one from Lee Valley has peaked my interest but am concerned about the price.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=45504&cat=1,42936,43509

I've used a lead holder from my drafting board days:

http://www.staedtler.com/en/products/pen...788-leadholder/

Works well on smooth / s4s material.
Okay on rough stuff.
For rough stuff I like the Mirado Black Warrior.
Or a traditional carpenters pencil, sharpened on my chisel or with a layout knife.

I've also used the mechanical clicky pencils.
OK on smooth stuff.
No go on rough stuff, although I haven't tried the thicker leads.

We use a soft lead in a .5 or .7 mm mechanical pencil, if we use a pencil. Most of the time we use a .7 mm pen and/or a traditional bamboo marking pen with ink from our "sumitsubo."

"fine line fine cut."

Regards,

jay

Hello,

Have stopped with pencils for the most part and am using self-made bamboo pen and ink on all wood surfaces.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Bamboo pens? You two have a picture of these instruments?

What if you lay-out your shoulder too short? Advantages / Disadvantages?

Jay, yes "fine line fine cut". With my brief experience that is the basis for me. Consistently a fine accurate line, from there I work to different sides when cutting depending on the joint. Without the fine line and with the same approach....well, sloppy.

I no longer use pencils, instead, I strike lengths with an awl from tape story pole and from reference edge with homemade gauges, I strike cheeks and gains. After striking, I check and then ink, freehand inside the scratch, with split quill ruling pens. The result is clear and completely specific. I detail with chalk, crayon and sharpies.

Interesting. Tape story pole? Is this a length of tape that you can write on without typical graduation?

Like to see a picture of that too, and your homemade gauges please.

Forget that this thread is labeled "Pencils". I wish I could change it to lay-out tools. Although I am still using pencils....

'fine line, fine cut'

i learned to roll my pencil / lead holder from a pair of artists i worked for.
sort of self sharpening, once you get the hang of it.

Another great conversation,

There are many different styles, and I am sure names as well, but what I make and use most often is a Sumisashi-(sorry I had the Kanji here but the stupid graphics on this forum don't work at all-literal translation: Ink Feed.) When I was still and apprentice, I have seen entire frames cut without a tape measure, and often today, once we have a design and a story pole created, (vertical stick blue print,) there is no more use of a tape measure.

Just as Roger N. suggested you take your datum off the story pole and strike a mark with a knife (or pencil,) recheck your layout with some form of "back check," and then, in our case, because we use line rule, you set you layout templates on your target marks and ink the cut lines of the joint, Highlight the waste with "hashi," marks.

Roger peaked my interest with a tape story pole. I would be very much interested in a "tape measure" with a blank writable face along its length.

I think I will be building this very soon for some centered mortise and tenons. With a little more substantial members.

EDIT: getting a better picture.

by the way my waste marks are an oval.

Mo, I use common graduated tapes, that I mark up with colored sharpies, different colors code info, and act as a highlight to (not an over write of) the relevant graduated dimension. Different tapes for posts, plates and sills, and ties. So on a post you will have transverse and longitudinal members different colors. Anyhow a number of tapes will be used in a frame but cleaned up with solvent after the frame is complete. I call this a shoebox template method. A friend of mine 20 years ago used steel banding strap but it was rather untidy method of templating.

The marking gauges are simple plywood tee squares that are glued and screwed together. The blade of the tee has hardened screws set into the blade at appropriate dimensions. Screw tips can be filed sharp and dimensions can be tweaked with the file. The advantage is mortise and matching tenons are marked with the same gauge and are buildings quantity of gains are marked with the same gauge and the gauge records all dimensions. I am heavy down the square rule path. Anyhow I get by with three or four gauges and a screwdriver.

Sorry I don't have photos but this is dirt simple

Mo,

"Fast Cap," tools has been making "story tapes," for years. It looks just like a tape measure but it flat and has a writable surface. We have several but still prefer a piece of wood 90% of the time.

Regards,

jay

Roger, Roger.

Thanks Jay. I'll check into those.

Here was the picture I was trying to add, my last post won't let me edit.



just need to the proper hardware for the swivel. Anybody ever used one of these?

Carpenter pencil, cut to a knife blade of sorts, fine tuned on the concrete floor. It is just too simple. Don't have to search for bamboo or keep an ink pot at hand. I would have it all over the place and upside down and all over my face. I can only imaging it being like anti-seize while doing mechanic work. Even after a day of layout my hands are covered in graphite.

I often mark on my tape, with fine tipped markers of various colors and or pencil, given lengths, not paying attention to the fraction but making a story pole out of my tape. No 86--68 mistakes, which I am prone to. Short lengths I will use my dividers, again no chance of miss reading fraction or mixing numbers.

I am finding more and more I mark an X at the outside ends of my mortices and tenons. Center line the mortice for the boring machine bits with proper spacing and sometime 1/8th pilot hole an inch or so deep. A little extra time but makes the setting of the machine a cinch, no over bores.

I scribble numbers on the yellow case of my tape all the time, stays long enough to get to the saw and will rub off. It should have a special pad for such a purpose.

Mo,

We use line rule so I see the purpose of you jig, but it's just more work that we don't use. The line is there and it represents a convergence inside the timber that everything else is designed and laid out to.

Hi Timbeal,

Never had to search for these anymore than my other marking tools.

I am always searching for something, just like to keep it to a minimum.

I find pencil stubs all over the place, just too short to use, about 2" is the limit. Can't bring myself to dispose of them in the trash.

Lofting off a floor layout is a nice way to get rid of the tape measure.

If I still had a pony tail I would do this. Half the time it is behind my other ear.

I use a red and black 997 with the "Hard" lead.

Hello,

A bigger problem than spillage has ever been is that the dog used to like lapping up the ink if I left it down low. There is nothing inherently untidy about it all though, it depends on the individual.

What the one would find annoying the other would take pleasure in. That it is a skill in and of itself to get right and that after a while becomes second nature is something I like about the method. A possible disadvantage, you don't stop it in your pocket like a pencil. On the other hand you will most likely not displace it like the ever elusive pencil either.


These are the main components of my lay-out set-up.

I use the ink well - the base of a broken bowel from around three hundred years ago I dug out of the garden - in combination with the sumitsubo as blotter.

Tim mentions the dividers which I am finding more and more uses for and more and more useful.

Lay-out from off centered snap line: Here, I must admit the bamboo pen can be problematic butting it up along reference marks off the story stick. The solution is carving a pointed pencil shape on the end opposing the bladed end, (see the bamboo pen to the right of the red ink well and pen).

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Hello Don,

That layout kit looks very familiar...I like it. Since we do Asian folk style most of the time and other Middle Eastern and related methods, we use "Line Rule," all the time. Being where you are, how often do you use "line rule," and have you ever seen evidence of it in old buildings in Europe?

When I apprentice to the Amish Barn Wrights, they used what they called a "grease line," often, (never got their formula for the ink-but that is what it was like, a greasy ink.) Since they used "line rule," I was just wondering how you came about using it, and how often you use it now? You are using the method just as they (Dutch Amish,) did, which is hardly any different than do Asian timber wrights. When did you start using it?

Sincere Regards,

jay

Hello Jay


Lay-out from a center line has been the norm here from the 13th century called hartlijn.
I guess the greasy ink was basically water and soot.
About all I can say concerning my experiance is I am 100% autodidact as a carpenter with a variety of background sources and have always worked alone.
Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

I like using a Pentel .9 mm mechanical pencil. I use the rolling technique to keep it sharp. For most stuff it is thin enough with our sharpening but on precise stuff I will take one pass with a piece of sandpaper. It is thick enough that it doesn't break too often, but being a mechanical it's just a few clicks from back to working order. You can find it at amazon.com, Office Depot, or a big box store. They run about $10 for a 2 pack. I use this or a carpenters pencil sharpened with a block plane for a super fine line.

I know in Dutch that "hartlijn" means center line or axis. Can you present any online resources in Dutch showing its use? Now I really need to know more about that date of the 1200 CE and how you arrived at that. It supports some of my findings about trade with Asia during the first have of the Current Era. The Vikings did probably the most, some are even buried with effigies of the Buddha so we know they traded that far. The also had metal blades that exceed their technology at the time but was found in the Middle East and Asia, which of course they soon perfected and advanced.

Would you say that Line method "hartlijn" is your preferred method now? If so, please explain it in your words why you think it is superior. I would love to know your thoughts on it.

I have heard of this but what my mentors used had a very light oiliness to it. Almost like sumi ink but not as refined.

If you did not have mentors, what was the background sources that have aided you the most? Do you believe that rediscover from an unknown position can often be more reveling than if you read about it or where shown?

Thank you for your input,

Regards,

jay

Hello,

Not to be evasive in answers to your questions Jay but I look up at the title of the current topic and the vein of the other contributions up till now on this thread and think that might take us a bit far afield. Were you to begin some new line of inquiry, say "How do we know what we know? A carpenters epistemology of methods and techniques." for example, that might be a better virtual space to go into the different segments you mention, and I will join in as I think the points you bring up are interesting even if somewhat ambitious.

That said, the greasy soot ink part does continue on in the spirit of the topic and I can contribute there with this anecdote from a year or so past. I generally tar the exterior of my barn every few years or so with a mixture that I have come up with myself through experimentation. A component of this mix is the addition of a black pigment which seems to give some protection to the base of pine tar, extending its life. But I also do a fair bit of mixing my own paints up and black is one of the handy pigments to have on hand though in talking it over with the pigment supplier last time I found that this soot pigment I was using for the barn is not so suitable for other paints as it will bleed through because of the particular oils it contains which we are all familiar with from looking inside the chimney or from the condensation that occurs inside of the woodfurnace when you start it up in the morning.
So the soot and water mixture would not be incompatible with the oily texture of the ink used that you are familiar with. In fact I understand that green, in the sense of wet, els, I'm trying to think of the English, alder, that's it, is said to give the best marking ink.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Agreed,

Even though it falls within layout, the question was about pencils. I need to stop asking questions late at night, I forget the topic and focus too much on the question...