I need a chain mortiser

Does anyone currently have a chain mortiser for sale under $800? I realize I shouldn't hold my breath hoping for this but if I don't ask I won't know.
If anyone plans to sell one in the next few months or you hear of someone selling one, please let me know.
Also, does anyone know if any store rents the chain mortiser? I haven't been able to locate any but I may not know what woodworkers stores to check.
Thanks for any help

I have used a hand crank boring machines for many years. Got Power a year ago. I implemented a plan I had though about for a long time. I mounted a 1/2" power drill to an old wooden frame I had kicking around, used some angle iron and welded up a mount that slides up and down like the head on the original machine. Squeeze the trigger and set the lock,cruise control. it has a block to stop it at the right depth, adjustable. It is near as fast as any chain morticer, and at almost no cost.

Can you send some pictures? And what bits do you use?
I bought a used radial arm saw and the chain mortise attachment and was thinking about removing the post, arm and saw from the table to rig up some sort of portable unit but then I thought about the wright of that and all the constant adjusting and resetting and I just can't see this idea getting easier.
So I like the idea of some alternative home fabricated rig. Had you thought about building a plunge rack assembly with similar to what the big money buys but using a small electric chainsaw?
Let me know if you can send photos of your creation.
Thanks,
Terry

Tim I'd like to see pictures too. I've thought about something along those lines from time to time, sound like you've got it all figured out

+1 for the pictures request. I actually thought about taking time off the build while cutting the frame to make one of these, but we were up against it, so I decided to push on without.

I will see what I can do. I may have video but lost my Utube access with the google change over.

Hope you aren't expecting much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6Wanrg6U4&feature=youtu.be

Tim...you're awesome, what a great video to share. I love it!!! Old meets new, I think I will have to try that.

Tim, extension cords are the gateway drug.

Next thing you know there will be internet, and not long after finding the Hundegger website that gentleman will be driving the CNC machine while texting...

Its a slippery slope I tell ya!!! Be careful!



Cool video. I think Leon Buckwalter was working on something like this awhile back... I remember seeing a prototype 'new' mortiser at the West Virginia conference...

It always seems to happen this way: I start looking for a power tool and the discussion morphs into rage against the machine!

Anyone know where I can find used chain mortisers to haggle over a price for?
Thanks for any leads anyone can provide.

Nope. Not raging. Just teasing Tim a bit.

Hence all the

I deserve it too, Mike.

tmc, I have a Makita chisel mortiser looking for a new home

Tim,
All in good fun. No barbs intended.

I thought the iPhone toting joiner working with your powered boring machine was a cool study in contrasts!!!

Bmike, I was only kidding too. Humor doesn't show much in blogs without smiley faces :-)
Roger, Ive never used the chain mortiser or the chisel mortiser but it looks to me like the chain mortiser is the tool to make this work easier for me and save me a lot of labor time which I need to do because this is a project I'll be doing at my house when I can get the time away from my keyboard punching job.
I will keep the chisel mortiser in mind in case I can't come up with an affordable used chain mortiser. Thanks for mentioning it.

The hollow chisel mortiser is a good choice if you place a high priority on precise cutting over high production speed and if you use softwood timber, ideal for Japanese style joinery where flat bottoms, depth control and a rotatable cutting angles shine over square cuts and round bottoms of chain mortisers.

Roger, how is the chisel mortiser for the angles like for braces and beam-to-post instead of straight mortises? Also, what amount of time do you think one mortise would take to cut using either mortising tool and new Parr chisels, bearing in mind that while I am new to these particular tools (not hand chisels) I think I can probably do at least half-speed compared to a pro like yourself.
Can you email me your asking price and photos at terry_mcquade@mac.com

I appreciate the education regarding precision and speed.

All those qualities are attainable with the morticer I posted. Although I am still considering "rotatable cutting angles". It won't get much cheaper than the morticer I posted, either. Common man, democratic morticer. (borrowed terms)

I liked the contrast as well, Mike. I could have picked the ten minute video of me boring 8, 3" deep, 1-1/2" x 9" mortices. That is about a minute per mortice. Then the fine tuning comes in and that only took about another minute per moritce to finish then off, corner chisel and slick, double check with a combo square. Total about 3 minutes/per, educated guess.

Tim, if cost wasn't a factor in choosing the best tool for mortising, would your top pick be a newer chain mortiser and will a corner chisel save me time and aggravation? I've got what I believe to be good framing chisels and a 3" bent slick but haven't decided about the corner chisel

No choice a corner chisel will be needed. I know Jack Sobon doesn't use, or didn't use one but I have tried it and just can't make it work with out a corner chisel, I have even tried a corner chisel in an air driven device, still working on that one.

If money was no object I would love to try a Mafel chain morticer, new not worn out.

Money no object?

1.5" framing chisel (in the toolbox now)
Slick (in the toolbox now)
Corner chisel (in the tool box now)
Mafell mortiser (I had a makita - liked it and it offered options for unique applications and for smaller mortises - bit the Mafell can't be beat for fast, accurate mortises in a production setting)
Or
Mint condition Miller Falls with bits - this would be sweet

I will be working 4x8 timbers for trusses. Posts will be 8x8. Beams will be 8x12. All poplar.
I thought the largest mortise would be 2x8x12 in the beams to post tenons.
What would each framer who reads this suggest a novice use for mortising the various size timbers I will be working with?
The trusses are going to be a king post style constructed as simply as possible (I'm not completely crazy to try curves with no experience). No fancy joinery to mount trusses on top of beams, just large screws.

What mortiser takes most of the guesswork out of the process, making it as idiot-proof as possible for me?

No tool deals with guesswork. Careful design and layout is key. The best crash course for building basic skills is in a workshop by the Guild. The machines just cut what they are pointed towards. What you know and what you are secure in comes with work.

So rate the tools

I believe the Makita chain mortiser is the most difficult tool. End grain cutting is rough and sometimes catchy with tear out. the depth of cut is varies in the mortise end to end. The clamps seem to me less than ideal. It's a gizmo.

Mafell chain mortiser is near perfect. Three times the price of Makita. It takes professional commitment to justify purchase.

Makita hollow chisel is the most mechanically controllable. Very robust clamps, x - y controls, stops, flat bottom cuts and drill press feed. Unlike chainsaw machines where the carpenter must dominate the tool and push, with the chisel mortiser the carpenter is not entwined when operating, has distance and good sight. Safety with control. Will cut poplar without problem.

I am not just saying this because I have a tool to sell, I've said the same for years

Hi Roger,
The other day you mentioned Makita chain mortiser being catchy on end grain. My pavilion will have 4 posts, 4 beams, 8 braces, and 5 trusses. I don't see any end grain cuts unless I'm missing something.
Nothing against your for-sale chisel mortiser but one thing is I hope to spend a lot less than $1,500 on whatever mortiser I end up buying. I have already spent almost 2k on the timbers, at least 2k on mostly tools and some hardware not including the tools I already owned that will come into play, I'll have to spend 1-3k on the foundation depending on if I do that myself which depends on how much money I have when it's time to pour, I'll spend at least another 1k on T&G 2 x 6 roof decking and shingle or steel plus misc. materials for roof....so I really need to hope for a lot for a little when it comes to the mortiser. I don't mind the clean-up chisel work on the mortises as I have my mind set on my ability to build this right. At the same time, I have to try to expedite the labor processes because I will not have the time I wish I could to devote to this project within a reasonable timeframe unless I can speed up the joinery process. I know once everything is cut I will have the frame up in a day.
Anyway....you sound like a pro in the field so I value your opinion which is why I ask if the makita would be a good tool for this. Like a lot of other people I don't make a lot at my job and I'm in debt up to the eyeballs of they guy standing on my head so I will probably have to sell most if not all the big money tools when I'm done with this project. I'd like to keep them to eventually build an addition before I get too old if I can come up with the financing but that may not be possible.
I might have to sell the 3k+ worth of Sorby turning tools, my Delta 1442 lathe, and my Woodsmith portable bandsaw to help pay for some of this project but I've never tried to sell any of my tools before and don't know what luck I might have. All my turning tools have from no hours to 2 hours use as I jumped into the hobby with great expectations and quickly found I have to work too many hours to pay the living expenses.
This timber framing project may be the last chance I have before getting too old to do the heavy work and I have wanted to do this since I was able to move out to the country 4 years ago after 50 years of living in crappy areas around Chicago and northwest Indiana.
I guess I've babbled long enough for now so if you know someone who wants to buy what I can sell and/or you can give me more leads on mortisers I might be able to afford, let me know. I appreciate any help I can get.
One last question for now: I have probably over-engineered the post brackets I have designed to anchor to the foundation and I am still looking for a local price for someone to fabricate them as I am not a welder and don't have the tools necessary for heavy steel fabrication. My question is do you know where I can buy brackets with the proper structural qualities for four 8 x 8 posts supporting a 18' x 22' pavilion roof? I haven't seen anything online that looks right but maybe I'm using the wrong search terminology.
Thanks again,
Terry McQuade

Find a local welding shop that does fabrication, look at heavy equipment shops, they usually have fabricator on hand. If it is not a busy time for them they will appreciate the work. A good machine shop is another chance.

We have several misunderstandings. On end grain, I referring to grain in the mortise. 2nd on the scale and budget of your project, I think it would be best to forget mortisers and use some variety of drill and chisel for mortising. Could it be possible to outfit by looking local for vintage tools? Do you already have a 1/2 inch drill motor?

Roger, can't I just do test holes in scrap to see how far inside the cut line to stay and compensate for chain chatter (also adjust the chain properly)?
I would probably have no problem hogging out the bulk of the mortises with my Bosch 1/2" drill and whatever best bits I could afford…except I can't wrap my head around creating a proper clean angle cut for a half dovetail mortise (I think that's the right term) which I thought would be a good idea to use in the sides of the posts mortises where my beams parallel to the trusses will connect lower than the bearing beams.
Let me know if my descriptions make sense. I can post rough drawings I made if I could find the "File Manager" button this websites FAQs says to use for attaching files.

I bore the half dovetail to the shortest length, clean that out and then rip the slopes with a hand saw, two cuts on the sides of the mortice. Use the trusty corner chisel to cut V-cuts and finish with a chisel making sure the top and bottom contact, You want this slope to be as flat as you can get it. If you are using a wedge, which you should, you will have a slope on both ends of the mortice. Take care on the wedge side where the wedge protrudes from the timber to ease the exit face, for if you don't you risk lifting material off the timber as the wedge tightens. That may not be clear until you see it happen.

Tim, thanks for chiming in. I don't think I'm getting a mental picture of how you get a handsaw into a 2" wide mortise? I wonder if my Fein multitool flush cutter could ease this process if I could find or fabricate a blade that wouldn't cut wider than the mortise?
I know the artistry of traditional timber framing is in the use of hand tools to create clean tight joints and I wish I could have the time to do it all that way. But I am self employed as a low man on the totem pole in the textbook publishing industry and I know we will get busy in the spring, maybe late spring, and I will have deadlines that have to be met if I am to earn a living. This is the reason I can't stress enough my need to expedite all labor operations. I've always wanted to build this myself having worked in construction for 30+ years prior to getting a desk job. I know I have the capabilities to do a good job on this. I just have to maximize my output while minimizing the time involved. Also, I don't want to risk the timbers having too much time to twist and bw and do what timber will before it is put in its final position.

Tim and Roger, my situation with my paying job is why I will need the high-priced mortiser. It's worth it to spend a reasonably high amount on tools (even if I have to sell some when the project is completed) so that I can put up a fantastic structure AND keep my somewhat steady income. I can't take time away from regular job usually to do this so I must do it fast AND do it well.

Hi TMC,

I have just been reading along, not reason to add another voice as Tim, and the others are doing good helping you along, with good guidance I might at all in all, so nothing to add there.

I do, at this point, just have to through out that you are spending a lot of time trying to make power tools work for you??? Hand tools are not as slow as many think they are. I have, and I try to get my students to cut there first few frames entirely by hand. I understand your time constraints, but most small frames take less than 200 to 300 man hours or less just with hand tools, if you don't have to hew the timber. Power, if all present, operating in good order, and designed for the craft does (as we use them) speed the process up, but only if they are proprietary and set up for the job. In general, if you focus on the task of joinery, they only add a little, and can also make big mistakes in both your body and material. Just some food for thought.

Hi Jay, thanks for the input, I do appreciate any and all advice, help and shared knowledge gained from experience. One sticking point I probably have is I trust myself more with power tools for the bulk of the work than to finesse it all start to finish. I do trust myself to finish the joinery with chisels, hand planes, anything else necessary….at least well enough to be sure this thing will stand for as long as routine maintenance is done to protect it from the elements.
The other problem I have which I know will cost me a lot of time is that I over-analyze things such as the joinery lay-out because while some people might measure 27 times and cut once, I will probably measure 227 times and cut once (I believe one might call it OCD).
IF I were to end up cutting by hand, what do you recommend Jay for hogging out the mortises? Can you give me specifics such as what tools to buy where? I've seen drill bits in my web searches that cost $300-$600 dollars! I understand I would be paying for the built-in craftsmanship of the bit but aren't there cheaper bits to do the work? Those bit prices are almost as high as some of the chains for mortisers.
I'm still open to suggestions regarding the entire process except having already payed for the timber. I hope to learn a lot during the winter.
I will try to get my rough drawings linked here today so everyone can give me constructive criticism. I especially want to here how badly I over-engineered my brackets for securing the frame to the foundation.

Here are the drawings. I'm no pro at creating drawings and it's been 30+ years since I took a class in drafting.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r6zi8uxb57myipq/Kh1RYMJ8MN

Another reason I may need power tools assistance is the thing no one wants to admit: wear and tear on my hands permanently damaged from 11+ years using 60-80 pound jackhammers and hammer drills with 2" drill bits hitting unseen rebar in concrete and the drill trying to rip my thumbs off. Did that until I was 46. The permanent large calcium deposits in my hands below my thumbs make it impossible for me to hold tools the same as if my hands were shaped as originally designed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crippled but I recognize the drag on labor time this could create. Maybe I'm over-analyzing again but I like to plan for every contingency.

"IF I were to end up cutting by hand, what do you recommend Jay for hogging out the mortises? Can you give me specifics such as what tools to buy where? I've seen drill bits in my web searches that cost $300-$600 dollars! I understand I would be paying for the built-in craftsmanship of the bit but aren't there cheaper bits to do the work? Those bit prices are almost as high as some of the chains for mortisers. "

Really??? All you need are single spur auger bits, google that. Do not buy 'nail eater' bits or you will be hoggging and tearing, spurs cut.

Can anyone tell TMC if boring poplar is similar to boring eastern white pine?
I have never bored poplar.

Jim Rogers

I've worked a lot of yellow or tulip poplar, which is unrelated to aspen, cottonwood and other poplars, but I would say green tulip cuts similar to white pine but the wood properties are very different regarding shrinkage, expect up to 3/4" checks.

Roger, should I use the sealer on the ends as soon as the trees are cut an timbers milled?

I won't be doing the joinery for 6, 8 weeks or more after timbers are milled to size

Hi TMC,

I am doing this quick, so forgive, and remind if I miss something...

A boring machine with auger bit is the first choice, need is a brace and bit with auger bit, and third is a 40 mm (1 1/2) out canal gouge with a #5 to #9 sweep. You can move a lot of wood with a gouge. Most American Timberwrights don't do much gouge work, but I would be lost without mine as I do almost all my chisel work with gouges. Either sweep or "v's."

Best drill bits and all we use unless antique or custom:

http://www.woodowl.com/

Jim R. is the first place to go for antique/used then after that where he recommends. I use almost exclusively Japanese hand tools for my work, as I work in the Middle Eastern through Asian timber framing modalities and styles. I do like (love) some of the stuff coming out of Latvia for tools:

http://www.johnneeman.com/en/tools/chisels

For power tools it is a big mix up, but the core is makita, and festool.

I love "tulip poplar (magnolia)" and yes it is very much like white pine, just not as knotty and it will check on you if you do not kerf you beams (Asian habit again.)

So I can see from you drawings you are going oblique brace and the European style. I know it well as I apprentice with Old Order Amish, but don't work by choice anymore in that style except when restoring antique frames. I will also assume you are using "edge rule" layout, and not "scribe or line rule." I will leave it up to the others to make suggestions in general, and will speak up if I could add anything they don't. Design should be checked by PE.

Yes you are over thinking this...but that may be part of the fun for you.

Regards,

j

Jay, I think the submit button stuck for a while!
Forgive my ignorance but what is meant to kerf my beams? Sounds important if it minimizes checking. Also, when should this be done? As soon as they are milled from the trees?

Jay, I found an article about kerfing the beams Japanese-style. It sounds like they cut the beams down the least-likely-to-be-seen side (for instance, a cross tie would be cut along the center of the crown-up side) almost to the center of the beam to "localize" the checking along that kerf cut which is supposed to minimize checking on other faces of the beam? Am I understanding that correctly?
Also again is this to be done ASAP after the timbers are cut to dimensions?

I would not cut across a beam at all. Down the middle of the top side is what I have done before.

Being that this is going to be an outside structure, possibly not heated, you may not need to do this.

Jim Rogers

PS. extra posts were deleted.

Thanks to whomever fixed my mistake with the send button...



Traditional there are variances to this methodology. Most do it just after "lining the beam," what some call "center lining." Which actually is the dominate layout method still in the world if you look at timber framing form a global perspective.



No, that isn't necessary, but end sealing is highly recommended.




You got it perfect!!

This modality of frame work employed in Asia concentrates the checking stresses into one location. We have done rudimentary examinations of different species over the years (including yellow poplar) and found that it is anywhere from 100% to no less that 80% effective in stopping unwanted surface checking. At a minimum it makes them much smaller.

We also are pretty obsessive most of the time, except for outbuildings and restoration work, about oiling an waxing our ends and joints to retard the drying process.

Regards,

j

Jay, does this only work on boxed heart? And would a 7-1/4" circ saw create a deep enough cut? I might have to rent or buy a big beamsaw if necesary

Hi TMC,

Any kerf, in this method, is better than none. Box heart beams that are mostly still log, or log flattened on two opposite sides is the most common, yet I have seen it in all fashion of timber, free of heart and otherwise. This is a skill that is learn through mentorship, time, and experience (experiment,) but I will say that I have read and heard more positive of it, than negative, from those that embrace the method.

Regards,

j

This concept of kerfing beams interests me.
We do a similar thing on timbers, cutting profiles along the beams. The grooving and profiling isnt strictly decorative, on interior beams it directs the splits and helps to hide them.

DL,
Do you have any example pictures of beams with profiles?

I can dig some up.

Poplar is next in line after pine for working with hand tools, very similar.

Here is one quick picture, not too great but you can see the profiling on some of the timbers here.

Are those saw cuts? I was thinking of routing some sort of profile or is there any good reason not to do a router bit profile?
Thanks for the example photo.

They are made with a profile plane, or sometimes a sweep gouge. Router profiles would be fine.

If I was doing one timber frame and time was worth more than money I would find a used chain mortiser and buy it, then resell it when the project was done. Other than the initial investment it would probably be cheaper than finding one that could be rented. Aside from that you have already gotten much good advice on boring machines and drill jigs which are also viable options with sharp bits.

Hi DL,

Wonderful photo, and yes I am sure such profiling does relieve some "checking and splitting" pressure, but no where near to the extent of what you would find in the traditional methods of kerfing to the center of a timber. It is usually done (I can't remember which of you asked) from the top of the timber, but I have also seen it done on the outside of timbers in exterior walls.

I agree, in general with Gumphri, if you can get a used chain mortiser, it will hold its value till the job is done, then you can resell it. I would not, however, that I have met a number of Timberwright in my time that where excellent and fast "joiners," as well. Many could, with ease, stay up with most other using chain mortiser, while they just use a "hole hog" and "gouge sets" with there parring chisels, on many types of mortising operations for different joints. Much to be said for developing and maintaining those types of skill sets.

Regards,

j

Jay,
If I were in my teens, 20s, even 30s, I would try to learn the craft from the best to have a career in timber framing but I can't afford to switch professions at 53

I can see that...I guess, to a point, but we are the ones to place limitations on ourselves. You and I are the same age, and I am always tell my peers, "you can be as young as you want, and do much more than you think..."

I have seen (and helped) many start over with this craft, the oldest being 87, who now has 4 frames under his belt. I have complete faith that you will do grand, even with physical limitations (I have broken my neck twice and my back twice, plus arthritis...so I can relate to how you feel in the morning!!)

It's our minds that get in the way, more than our bodies. Plus it helps just to be able to do this with others of like mind...chat about what you are thinking of doing and see what others say.

Regards,

j

Jay,

You are of course correct, such profiling will not do as much to relieve stress as kerfing might. But, it has the advantage of being attractive, adding a decorative element, a certain architectural embellishment that reflects the tremendous skill of the carpenters who built these things.
The profiling is more prominent on door and window posts where splitting would be a major issue -distortion of these members would mean the doors and windows attached won't operate properly. The result is both atactive and effective at preventing cracks and twists.

As for the mortising approach,
I have never used a chain mortiser, probably never will. I'd have to fall in line with Tim, and suspect his solution might be best for you. Why, I might even buy it off you when you're done!

Hi DL,

Agree, not as much as kerfing, but your forbears had been wise also in that you can take a even lower grade of timber, and through embellishment render beauty, relieve surface tension in the timber, and obscure certain blemish of the timber, thereby rendering much more than it would have been. They worked timber into beautiful embellishment to a degree that I have not seen outside of Africa or Southeast Asia, other than perhaps the Norse and some of there timber buildings with great carving.

I doubt I will ever own a chain morticer, a gift perhaps but after using my drill on a stand with depth, stopped...... it is solved.