Kicking Horse Timber Frame Bridge

Celebrating 10 years since TFG built the Kicking Horse TF Bridge, so here is a quick SU model, with more work to be done. Hope to see some of you guys in Golden this weekend.
Cheers
Irv Graham
Alpine Meadows Lodge
Added by Moderator Paul Freeman 10/24/11: [Reid Costley designed and engineered the project for the Town of Golden and on behalf of the TFG, Ed Levin was the primary contributor to the project design and there were many others too numerous to mention here.]

Hi Irv,

I wonder if what you have posted above is a breach of copyright ?

We all of us here know the original designer of this bridge.

I am sure that no offence is intended (either way) and hence I simply raise this as a topic for thought, comment and discussion.

Regards

Ken Hume

Seriously?

Ken,

I don't think Irv was claiming to be the designer, simply building a model for the 10th anniversary of what was for many people, an amazing experience.

And, you might want to have a look in the 3d Warehouse...

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/

-Mike

Hi Mike,Ray & Irv,

I have been reading the Timber Framers Business Council Client Guide document which can be found at :-

http://www.timberframe.org/images/pdf/ClientGuidePacket-PA.pdf

which covers aspects of copyright infringement includng this short extract written by Nancy Wilkins :-

"Copying a home from real life is not allowed. Any home built since 1990 is the intellectual property of the original designer, and you may not recreate it even if you go measure it and draw it up yourself. The test that courts have based their rulings on is whether an ordinary person, with no building background, on examining the two designs, would become confused as to which was done by the original designer (from Building Systems Magazine, November–December 1996)."

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken,

It's not a home. Except for the troll that lives under it. He probably won't mind.

Do perspective renderings without scale with limited pixels represent anything other than an impression? Can a public building be sketched without permission? Ideas and information are in the air, every fence post, mailbox, outhouse and treehouse is a design, every placement of every object by man is a design. Let's get over ourselves. Scout Wilkins was representing a business organization and a code of ethics, she was not exploring fair usage in the public domain.

What I believe is the fair thing when posting images is to post links to source or when imbedding an image state attribution.

Golden Greetings
Ken, please continue having this conversation concerning protection for private buildings etc. Modelling a public bridge using public funds that had open houses etc maybe different. If great participation from the TFG and wonderful learning experiences for all that helped to create this rather unique and beautiful bridge, inspires other communities to consider TF's, hey it sure beats the romance of steel and concrete. Simply modelling an inspiring timberframe, without access to any detailed engg drawings, or any joint details will not I believe cause too much concern. Please enjoy and create more fantastic timberframes, we need them.
Cheers
alpmeadow
A TF Fan

Irv,
I would suggest that you might contact the original designers and make sure it is OK to publish such models publicly. I am sure it would be, but I ask myself what would I do in their position? My position would be I would not care if people did things such as this, so long as they asked me first.

Regards,

DLB

I think we need to stop reading into things, things that are not there. It is what it is. An invitation to celebrate the anniversary of this bridge. I challenge anybody to build this bridge based on the SU drawing Irv posted. And frankly, and seriously, WGAF.

Hi All,

I asked a simple question in the hope that it might inform me a little more on what one can and cannot reasonably do with other people's designs and maybe more importantly (for me) what others can do with my designs. I struggle with this issue.

I suppose that a person can't go wrong if they follow the common sense and courteous aproach outlined above by DLB. Attribution would normally require adding the creator's name followed by "after originator's name" - that way there is no doubt as to ownership of intellectual property or apparent pretence to same.

I don't know what WGAF means and I am now quite frightened to ask or discover in case this is less than complimentary !

Regards

Ken Hume

All, there is a long history in art and architecture schools of copying great works to learn base skills. In 3d modeling especially it is useful to build real world projects. The original post made no mention of trying to build this. Now were they claiming credit. I don't see how this is any different than any of the hundreds of balsa wood models I've seen of various historic timber frames.

Now, if the OP worked up a detailed and measured set of plans and was asking the forum technical questions about how to build it, it would be a different situation.

Ken, perhaps there is something lost in translation, but your post sounded more condemning than questioning.

Hello,

I'll tell you what it means Ken, but first you have to promise no ABO threats of some type for translating.

More broadly though, everyone is free to project an interpretation on Ken Hume's or any other posting. Personally I see nothing indicating anything judgmental, simply a straight forward question. Seems fair enough.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Hi All,

Please ease up everybody and I will tell you why I posed the original question.

I recently posted a design for a timber framed firewood store on a UK forum. I was using a forum "nom de plume" rather than my own name and added a note on the design stating "copyright K F Hume 2011". When I checked back the following day I found that my design had been removed by the site moderator. I sent him a note asking him why he had done this and he advised me that the drawing was copyright and could not be posted unless I posted using my own name to make it clear that I owned the copyright to the design.

As stated in my original qustion we all know who owns the copyright to the Golden Bridge design and thus I find myself confused as to why the TFG Forum moderators (and officers) have not acted in a similar fashion to their UK counterparts especially given the very clear guidance provided in Nancy's TFBC client notes.

I find myself quite confused as to what one can and can't do in respect of publication of designs such that intellectual property owners rights are fully respected and / or acknowledged.

Regards

Ken Hume

Golden Greetings
I was at a wonderful event yesterday to celebrate "at the bridge" and learned that I must credit Reid Costley who designed and engineered the project for the Town of Golden and on behalf of the TFG, Ed Levin was the primary contributor to the project design. Reid generously consented to my public representation of a SU model.
There were too many others that were involved in this project to mention, they all must honored for their valued contribution.
If there is anything further needed, please advise. TFG's commitment to community project work, are all tremendous legacies, many thanks, keep up the good work!
Cheers
alpmeadow
Cheers
Alpmeadow

It was indeed a lovely time.

Plenty of gratitude to go around.

A lovely town, and a lovely bridge.

Toasts to our absent friends.

Hi Irv,

I am pleased that your event went well and I am also pleased that you have now publically acknowledged the source and inspiration for "your work" however this credit should appear on the images so that persons downloading and viewing same remote from this forum thread will be equally well informed.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, it seems to me the difference is that in the drawing you posed on the UK forum you claimed it was copyrighted, so the moderators took it off because they didn't want to get in trouble for posting copyrighted material w/o permission. The images that the OP posted do not say they are copyrighted. If every forum had to worry about taking off photos and images that are of something that is copyrighted, a lot couldn't be posted it seems to me. And surely it isn't the moderator's duty to look at every image, then think "hmmm, is this a copyrighted work," then if they think it is to take steps to find out. So it seems to me the difference is that one image said it was copyrighted and the other did not.

I have edited the original post and credited Reid Costley and Ed Levin. While it is true that all work should be credited I think that we are all friends here and no one is about to "steal" someone else's design.

That said, it is my understanding that simply referencing images from another web site is not permission. You must have expressed written permission. I'm quite sure the same is true for all plans and many photographs.

Lastly, I absolutely don't have time to act as copyright cop, and really, do you? Get to work! <-- Said with a smile and a clap on the back!

Moderator, Paul Freeman

Golden Greetings
The Kicking Horse Timberframe Bridge in Golden BC(TFG 2001) has been successfully renovated(Ziggy at International Timberframes), and I will attach an image in new message, if I can figure out the a good method.
Previously I was known as alpmeadow but had to renew under new registration.
Glad to be back.
Irv

Kicking Horse Timberframe Bridge refreshed [img:right]https://flic.kr/p/23tmEgb[/img]
Cheers
alpmeadow