Alternative for Stub Tenon

I am looking for alternatives or suggestions for a joint where there is two 8"x8" girts coming into opposite sides of a 8"x8" post. The last time I did this I used 4" stub tenons on the ends of the girts. I am not very satisfied with this joint as it did not leave much meat or relish. I have heard of framers elude to a hardwood spline thru the post and into both girts. Not sure if I have this right ? Could use some more details on this or other alternatives/suggestions.
Thanks, Jeff

Jeff - I used the spline method on my barn. There is a good back and forth discussion of this joint in the TFG Design book. Also, in the same reference, Tedd Benson gives detailed specs on several examples in a house design. As you might guess, the traditionalists don't favor it it, but from a strength and design flexibility point of view, I like it. I used 2x4 hickory splines with 4 - 1 inch pegs in each member coming into the post. If you want more details and/or a pic, send me a note. jekbear

Jeff,

There are numerous issues to understand about splines, and yes, I am one of the traditionalists.

If you are using hardwood timbers with a 1 1/2" shoulder offset for pegs, 4" tenons provide plenty of relish. Just remember that Peter McCurdy has warned us about getting pith in our relish. Best to use two pegs in each tenon.

If you would like more relish (I like dill) you could use 1 1/2"x 5" tenons offset to each side of a common layout line. If the timbers are not housed (assumed by the 4" tenon length you mention) you actually will remove less wood from the post.

Good luck with your project.

Rudy

Thanks for the suggestions gentleman.
I should have given more detail, the frame material is Lodgepole Pine and I used a 1" diminished haunch with a 2"x8" tenon that of course was tapered 4" to 3" to suit the tapered shoulder on the post.
Liked the idea of lapping the girt tenons....

Jeff Wharton (center of the Tundra)

Hello Jeff and others:
Here again I couldn't resist the temptation to join this discussion; As you probably expect I always want to refer to the historical data that I have seen over and over again in traditional frames. I have noticed many 8 by 8 vertical posts in barn frames intesected by girts coming in on the same planes from the sides, and in all cases the tenons would be slightly less than 4" in length because of the shouldering and to ensure that they would not bottom out against one another. In (most) cases the tops of the posts are held in position by the main upper plate, relieving the girts of any duty as far as lateral tension is concerned, these girts only duty is to be a wall stabilizer for the siding boards or panels. The framers would have only used 1 pin for attaching in a majority of cases. If your construction does not have an upper plate then the girts may have additional duties and have a more important part to play in the framework's makup.
NH

Jeff, In Steve Shappells book, A Timber Framer's Workshop, he also discusses spline joinery. Being a novice framer I also used four spline joints with diminished haunches in my frame. The splines are 2x5 oak. The next time I would use the offset tenons as discussed by Rudy because of it's ease of cutting and simplicity. What I have learned is, Stick to the basics! Spline joinery takes a lot more time to cut vs two mortices and two tenons.
John..

Gentlemen, I completely understand the traditionalist view on the spline, however, I would dispute the conjecture that cutting an offset pair of mortises in the post and two tenons on the girts is quicker and/or simpler than cutting the spline joint which is really just 3 straight mortises. I was able to cut my girt mortises as easily and as fast as a standard tenon. jekbear