2008 western conference

So, can anyone tell me when the schedule for this surfaces?
I'm sure it's still under construction, but when can I expect it?
I'm excited...
I'm curious what the pre-conference workshops will be... any hints?
Thanx
*Kristina

Hi TG:

From the TFG Web Site:



I believe I'll be doing the Sketchup pre-con again, but nothing is official yet. Hope to see you there. CB.

Ya, I've already booked the time for the conference, so I'm going...I've got to throw some axes.
Are you going to do another workshop on Japanese joinery? That's one that I wouldn't miss for the world!

TG:

I hope that question wasn't directed at me! CB.

HI TG:
We are working on it. All of it tentative but lots of interesting stuff. Chris Koehn and Bob Pasquill will be doing a talk on the "Civilian Conservation Corps" and they are also working on a tour of nearby CCC buildings. We are trying to get Daiku (Clark) to do some more SketchUp, it was wildly popular at Montebello. We will be doing Japanese Carpentry but speakers and topics are not set.
We will have some chainsaw topics including joinery. We expect to have a session on LEED certifications and maybe repeat the Net Zero Housing talk Frank Baker did last month. Curtis Milton's Math Primer got good marks and we might be able to talk him into another go. I am trying to get some interest stirred up for "An Itinerant Timber Framers Roundtable" with traveling carpenters and some of the shops that hire them.
If you have any ideas this is a good place to post them or send them to me directly.
David

Thanks for the info, David!
There seems to be a good line up already of stuff I would be interested in...chainsaws...math...SketchUp....
oh, and itinerants! Right..I'm one of those, now! It would be a great session, for sure! I would love to see that one formed.
Thanks,again
*K

Test Posting

Hi Dave,
Try not to schedule this at the same time as the CAD Shoot Out. Might make a good evening session, meet in the Bar. Tom

Hello Derek
Ed Shure taught a popular class at Roanoke "Aging is a Myth". It was body work, not yoga. We can see if he is interested in coming to CdA.
What sort of rusty skills are you interested in? I think Curtis Milton will be working on rusty math skills.
Boats? boats are very interesting to me and there is a good timber framing connection there, input from members about good presenters and topics is welcome. I would be happy to investigate.

I'm sensing that maybe you haven't been out in a while...

Margherita

I had decided to go to the western conference. I was particularly interested in the timber/log grading preconference workshop. I thought " great! I can learn grading and become certified and grade my own timbers(and maybe others). Then I read in the fine print that you have to be part of a log or timber business." What a rip! Now I'm thinking it's not worth the trip. I was interested in the log/timber grading and the scribing workshop. Whey the heck offer the timbergrading and certification to the TFguild memebers if we all can't do it!?!

Years ago, I attended two grading workshop, put on by a sawmill magazine and the lumber association for my area, NeLMA. They told us at the first meeting of the day that they wouldn't allow a portable sawmill company to have a graders license, as they wanted to know every minute of every day where the license was.

Also, to get a license you have to be in the association and the dues was something like $2500 per month. And you had to be voted in by the other members (a way to control your competition).

So, what most of us did was learn what grade #2 is as most timber frames have to be grade #2 or better. And that is grade #2 of the two sections: post and timbers, beams and stringers.

If you learn this rule, which you can do by reading a rule book and then applying the rule to your timber, and you're producing timbers that meet this rule or surpass this rule by being "better" then you can sleep at night knowing that you've done the best you can do.

If you need your timbers to pass by having a licensed grader inspect them, (something you might have to do to comply with a building inspector's wishes) then you'll have to produce the timbers and hire a licensed grader of the association to travel to your site/sawmill and inspect your timbers.

I've done this before....

You have all the timbers laid out in your yard, and be prepared to move them out of the way, usually with a fork lift, when he rejects one.

Then you'll have to replace the ones he's rejected. So, you may want to have a few extras on hand in case he does.

After the inspector looked at all four sides of the timbers and both ends he stamped the end grain of each timber with a mallet that has a grade stamp profile on the head. Sort of like a brand but not burn in, stamped in.

And afterwards, he produced a letter stating that he had inspected the timbers and that they passed. This letter was shown to the building inspector of the town where the barn was to be assembled. And this complied with his wishes, so he granted them (the clients) a building permit.

You can expect to pay the grader's one full day fee for having him travel to your site and inspect your timbers.

Jim Rogers

What book do I need or where can I get it Jim? I want to learn and if I can get it from a book, great!

Why does the guild have this workshop for certification when so many of the members will be excluded from it?!! Bogus!

I don't know why or anything about the workshop, so I can't comment on that.
First of all brad you need to find out what lumberman's association covers your area. Then contact them for their rule book. If you want the NeLMA rule book google NeLMA and I'm sure it's there....
Here is a link where you can download the entire book in pdf format by chapter or section:
http://www.nelma.org/index.php?module=StaticContent&func=display&scid=10

Jim Rogers

Derek:
Some times it's not about trust, it's about complying with the law. And what I mean by that is you maybe not able to get a building permit without a grade stamp on your timbers.

And not all sawyers understand grade rules or even try to saw by them. So you've probably used sticks that don't pass.....

Does the Guild ever try to find solutions to help it's members with problems like this? It just seems like timber grading is a problem for many smaller shops who are trying to use local timbers to help their local economies.

I find this to be a interesting topic. What Derek is talking about.
How do we make the credibility of the timberframer surpass all these other stamps? If we can find the answer to this...

I'd think that an organization could establish rules for grading and selecting timber for various applications, offer training that is structured and can be shown will assure uniform testing and certification of it's inspectors. Then it's a matter of getting recognized and accepted from state to state. After all, states want to assure the safety in their building codes. Make the standards of the organization surpass current standards or be tailored more specifically to timberframes. Now, how to prevent money from becoming an issue? Of course an inspector needs to be paid for their time... but how do we prevent it from becoming like the other grading org? How can it stay open to anyone wanting to learn and pass certification? The point is to allow anyone to do this so that they can grade their own stuff, and their buddies stuff. Another question is, are graders subject to liability in the event of a failure of a timber?
As an grader, would you need to keep a log of every timber graded? Numbering that timber and documenting it's defects and grade score? Does he need to supply rules for use of the timber in a frame, like a document that specifies keeping knots of a certain size out of the tennon or mortise or critical shear area?
All things to think about.

What is the goal of a "timber framer" stamp? What are you wanting to do that currently falls under someone else's stamp? Or who are you trying to remove from the process (grader, engineer, architect...)? By eliminating that profession, are timber framers taking on the combined professional liability of each of these profession? If this is part of a timber framer stamp, are you placing responsibility and liability on some timber frame shops that may not want it? Food for thought...

Hi Steve & Derek,

You raise some interesting points worthy of note and some reflection.

In 1898 Ralph Nevill (architect) wrote :-

"The art of building, to be really living and successful among us, must not depend on the efforts of a few architects, but must be the possession of the whole of those concerned in the building trades. The builder, his clerk and his workmen, may, by a diligent study of the good old work that exists all round them, improve themselves, just as architects have since they took to more diligent study. They may then pick up again the tradition and they will certainly add a new interest and pleasure to their lives, and spare the public of the purposeless and wanton atrocities that so disfigure our land." - Ralph Nevill 1889.

Nevill was referring specifically to the practice of building using traditional timber frame methods and his book - "Olde Cottage and Domestic Architecture in South West Surrey" became an inspration to architects to start designing again in the old traditional ways much as Ted Benson's book "Building the Timber Frame House - the revival of a forgotton craft did almost 100 years later".

I rather suspect that we are all in this together and that there is nothing new under the sun.

Ken Hume P.Eng.

I'm a rookie, so I don't profess to be an expert on timber framing. I have learned that many inspectors require that timbers be graded. Makes sense, in that someone needs to give that inspector some assurance that the timber is as strong as the engineer assumed it was when the engineer approved the plans.

I have heard from others that there is a timber organization out there that will teach and certify someone in your shop to grade timbers. The annual charge for this is $2k to $3k, and the stamp must not leave the shop. This is cost prohibitive for a small shop. And a decent timber framer surely can grade timbers, even if he has to have a little training in the requirements.

So, why not start with timber grading? See if the Guild will explore with the timber grading organizations some way we can be trained at Guild meetings, and for a reasonable fee each year, certify the grade of the timbers that go into our frames. This might already be covered by your insurance. That's something else that the Guild could check.

Heck, for what I know this was tried by the Guild years ago. Anyone know if there has been any work on this before?

Now an engineering stamp, that seems much more of a stretch to me. I think timber framers sleep better at night knowing that an engineer has reviewed and approved the frame.

As I have said, if you can teach someone the rules for grading, why should they have to be part of a business to be certified? There is no reason. Qualified is quailified. Annual cost for a stamp? I'm sure it's reasoned that those fees maintain the "standards organization". With the expertise and experience of certain guild memebers and already being an established organization(and we already pay dues to maintian the organization), it is likely feasable that they could maintain and administer the standards for grading and selection. They'd have to vote as to whether that is something they'd want to take on.
I also understand it is desireable to maintain some sort of control of stamps. What is a stamp? It's a mark that denotes that the person has been trained and passed minimum grading standards. Each stamp should show the organization as well as a number that designates who's stamp it is. It should also be required that training be renewed at some interval(like a driver's license). Each owner of a stamp is responsible for their own stamp. If it's misused, the individual should be liable, not the organization. The organization can only assure standard rules, training, and administration of testing.
Once again, the point is to allow hobbyists or others doing timberframing on a small scale or small scale sawing operation, to grade their own stuff or for friends or to be available locally to help other guild members. Certification should also be verifiable online - a building inspector could look up the stamp number and verify that it is current, valid, and contact info for the grader is available.
One example is UL. UL is a recognized standards organization. They also have to certify products which leaves some companies hostage to their schedule, fees etc. Other standards orgs have popped up to combat this, like CSA.

DKR,

Good idea. I think the Guild should look into making it easier for us to become certified graders. I will see what kind of interest I can stir up about this. Obviously it is already seen as an issue, as I can remember several grading courses being offered over the last few years at various guild events.

Gabel

I took the BC Interior Timber Grading course in 1998, and I'll tell you, I learned more about wood grading while working as a timber framer than I did during my 4 weeks and much money spent at the college....

Here's some background about adding the grading workshop at the Western Conference:
The Log Homes Council of the NAHB funded the research that developed the grading standards (for logs, but also applicable to timber). This particular certification is through them, so they require membership to use it. I guess they have right to try to recoup their investment. This was brought to us by Robert Savignac as a potential workshop since he was presenting at the Conference anyway, and we thought we'd give it a try, and perhaps attract some log builders to our event.
We have had grading workshops at a number of Guild events and will have one at the Camp Letts rendezvous and I'm offering one at Heartwood in June. But these are 1/2 - 1 day, and do not give certification; that requires a much longer course from NELMA. We will probably offer one of those as well soon, although NELMA already offers those that you could go to.
The grader certification is, in my opinion, appropriate for bigger companies that mill their own timber and regularly use engineered drawings that specify grade. In my experience in western Massachusetts, I have rarely, if ever, required engineer's or grade stamps. I'm lucky. If I did need either, it might be cheaper to just pay for a grader (like Jim did) or buy graded timbers than to get certified.
Anyway, I shudder to think of what some local sawyers have provided over the years, and any timber framer should know the rules and methods for grading. It's not that hard, but there are subtleties and interpretations that make a workshop better than just trying to learn it from a book. Each grading agency, including NELMA, has the grading book you can buy on their website.
So back to the Coeur d'Alene workshop: you don't need to be from a company to take the workshop. But you need to be if you want to use the certification legally. If all you want is the knowledge and damn the stamp, then take the workshop.