Unique TF barn ?

A salvage company in Wisconsin found and purchased this barn near Manitowoc, WI which is north of Milwaukee near Lake Michigan. He has never seen a frame like this, and neither have I. So I offer this starter question...Does this design have it's origins in any known ethnic inventory?

Let me know what you all think.

Rooster

http://s453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254...mview=slideshow

P.S. This frame will be for sale in the near future...please contact me if you would like for info.

some elements of this barn a very German, which being from Wisconsin isn't that surprising. Other elements are very reminiscent of the barns in my area, namely the canted purlin posts.

Overall, I would guess just by looking that it is a heavily German inspired frame, as most of the 'unusual' elements seem to be typical German techniques to me.

To me, the most unique part of this frame is that the tails of the rafters are joined to either a full tie beam that rests on top of the sidewall top-plate, or for lack of a better description, "stub-tie-beams", which then seem to be attached to a beam that spans the bay and connects the full tie-beams about 24" from their ends. It seems like the framer is using this secondary beam to help control the roof from pushing the sidewalls out at the top. Do you also see this?...or is there a different purpose or idea behind this additional framing system?

Thanks,

Rooster
920-728-0353

Craig, there is a brief hint of a similar approach on page 44, of Historic American Timber Joinery. It is missing the inner plate.

I think this has been talked about in the past here on the forum, can't recall directly, perhaps others will.

I have seen two hip roofs here in the middle of the coast of Maine with these short tie beams for the rafters to land on.

As for ethnic origin it could be German and called a stichbalken. Look at the illustration here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkenlage#Stichbalken

Stub-tie is a good name for them.

I have been researching historic framing in Europe and I have found that framing techniques are shared by many continental European countries so it is often impossible to pin down an ethic origin to one country. for example similar stub-ties in Dutch are called "blokkeel" and in French "blochet".
In cruck framing a stub-tie like this is a "cruck spur".

Nice series of photos. Thanks

Jim

Hello,
Yeah, my first thought was also something German, except from the outside and then the more closely I looked the less sure of that idea I was. Not out of any technical considerations but more intuitively I am convinced that it might be worth looking for Scandinavian, specifically Norwegian origins. Someone, sorry I don't remember who, put up here a very nice report on simple Norwegian timber buildings which might reveal some ties.

Oh yea, there are really no ethnic distinctions to be made within Europe except for gypsies, who we all know live in those colorful wooden wagons.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Hi,

To a certain extent this design has its roots in the design of timber roofs built to sit on top of masonary walls where both an inner and outer wall plate is employed with these being tied together by short ties. In the barn design the thing that is missing is a short vertical ashlar strut rising from the inner plate to the rafter.

In my opinion there is nothing particularly Germanic about this frame. In this respect I agree with Don that European roof design is fairly ethnically diverse in it's roots especially concerning early buildings. The serious student might want to consult - "Roof Frames from the 11th to 19th century" edited by Dr. Patrick Hoffsummer and published by Brepolis Publishers, Belgium. This is not cheap !

Regards

Ken Hume

Howdy,

Well Brad_bb sent me a scanned copy of p.44, and I see the resemblance. So is the beam that runs parallel to the top-plate there to counter balance the stub-tie?...or to keep the roof system from splaying the side walls? or is the top-plate too narrow to except a notched rafter tail?...

So many question!

Thanks to all who have responded!

Rooster
920-728-0353

Craig – A slight twist on the thread topic.

As we all know settlement patterns heavily influenced regional framing. From what I've seen, that seems to be particularly hyper local there in Wisconsin, at least in Central Wisconsin. When asking how this might be the case, I was told advertisements were placed in Europe in the mid nineteenth century, seeking to encourage emigration to a then largely empty countryside. This seems to have been so effective that towns were peopled almost en masse , with country of origin effecting town settlement in a very different way than is typical for other parts of the country, where such makeup is more commonly driven by employment opportunity. And the country of origin settlement there in Central WI seems to vary in pockets in counties, even from town to town. This so greatly, it influenced even place names, and even carpentry with pockets of such things as styles and methods of logcrafting seeming to vary over short distances, this even goes to timberframing of barns and even carpenters marks. Clearly trained carpenters were among these imigree’s and continued to practice with the methods they brought with them. Even scribe practices seemingly executed out of time, with these methods sometimes found in barn typologies of later and very much American patterns.

Have you ever seen any of the Scribed Lap Joinery barns in the Polish settled towns? I've a friend documenting them and have visited a few tagging along for surveys.

I live in south central Wisconsin and I am familiar with the the local towns that have strong ethnic origins:

Jefferson WI: German
Watertown WI: German
New Glarus WI: Swiss
Stoughton WI: Norwegian
Parts of Milwaukee WI: Poish
Mount Horeb WI: Norwegian/ Finnish

I have not seen any Polish scribed barns...but I wouldn't say no to an invitation.

Thanks,

Rooster

There are quite a number of Swiss settlements in Wisconsin, which incidentally is the origin of the famous Wisconsin Cheese. I have relation up there somewhere...

I know there are numerous opportunities to study genuine Swiss techniques in some of the Swiss settlements (While we are talking about studying ethnic buildings) IT is because of this tradition that I suspected the barn might have some German influence, the long slanted braces especially had me thinking of that.

DLB

Here is a link to the UW-Extension site where there is a short video about Swiss Forebay barns.


http://www.uwex.edu/lgc/barns/index.html


Look for this on the home page and click on the video.

"August 7th Heritage Barn Tour & Conference in Green County - the video below discusses the historical barns featured in this tour!"

Craig -

I'll ask, I'm in contact regularly, but am more than a ways off, and all the lap joinery scribe barns I visited were privately owned...

I was invited to the Swiss Heritage Barn Tour, but could not attend. Did you make it to the WI example?

Hello,

Here are some of those stub ties too where the rafters are butted at the ends, but then different, from
an image on a German timber framing address.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

It looks like the barn in the OP is this same one...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270721121068

Yes, That's the one! Nice barn eh?

yes it is. I'd love to see it in person.

Gabel,

I sent you a PM,

And thanks to all who shared their thoughts!

I am hoping to do a simply Sketchup drawing of the frame...just have to find the time to get over there and take measurements.

Thanks,

Rooster

I have more photos and drawings located here:

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,49751.msg909621.html#new

And I hope to take more photos when we re-raise the frame.

Rooster

Here are some updated photos and dialogue about this frame.

Rooster

http://s453.beta.photobucket.com/user/cr...?sort=6&o=0

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,49751.0.html

Thanks for posting the link.
Nice job.

Jim Rogers

Now that I can see the frame in detail, how it goes together, the joint design, etc. I can say with some confidence that this has some definite Swiss design elements to it.

The framing system here is not far from what you might find in the norther art of the Canton of Bern.

And the fact that the bottom portion was clearly used as a milking parlor strengthens this connection to the Canton of Bern, as does the original location in Wisconsin.

Looking through your pictures immediately brought my mind to the impressive farm structures of the Swiss Plateau. This barn seems to have some very clear connection to this tradition.

Hello All,

I know I'm coming to this conversation late in the game but I have seen this rafter tail configuration before, in Ohio and I believe Pennsylvania, can't remember. It could be of several European origins depending on where the barn is found. This one is most likely Swiss or German.

The name of the technique is described in several cultures. I have translated them all to English and/or closest meaning.

sprocket beam
stitch beam
bracket beam
dragon beam (note, this is similar to what you find hip rafters resting on.)

Sometimes they are attached with a tenon, (sometimes a through with wedge,) to a secondary rafter plat, often they are not, though the configuration is similar, and function the same.

Here are a few references:

"The Roof in Japan Buddist Architecture," M.N.Parent, 1985

"The History of Roof Work Illistrated," F. Ostendorf, 1908 (German)

"Japan's Folk Architecture" Chuji Kawashima, 1986

R. G. Knapp, can't remember which one. I think "China's Vernacular Architecture," 1989

"Wood and Wood Joints, building traditions of Europe and Japan," K. Zwerger, 2000

I'm not 100% but I believe this makes reference also:
"The Craft of Log Building," H. Phleps, 1967 (German) trans. Eng. Lee 1982

Regards, jay

Although the photos are not explicit, what I see in ordinary carpenter speak is a header carrying crippled ceiling joists that overshoot the plate forming a cantilvered or perhaps a jettied support for the rafters. The technique of joining rafters to ceiling joists is not rare, using headers and cripples in a roof system is common but an entire roof system of headers and cripples is unique to my point of view. Since I do not see sprockets, brackets, stitching or dragons why not call it for now a Rooster Beam.