proper tagging and documenting

Can anyone tell me what the proper procedure is for dismantling,tagging or numbering, documenting and re erecting a barn for a home conversion? Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks Mike

There is a carpentry numbering systemfor all the pieces of timbers in a timber frame.

It originated in the bluming times of timber framing in europe,way before America was discovered, and still is used today.
All timbers in a wall are numbered continuesly with roman numbers. ( I, II, III, IV etc.)This # is always on the left or bottom side of the timber.

All walls (gutter walls or walls length side with the house) get a " /" (dash ;1st wall : / 2nd: // 3rd wall : ///) behind the roman #

All gable walls get a nodge in the number. The 1st gable wall has one nodge, 2nd two etc.

First floor has only the numbers on the timber, 2nd gets a triangle behind the dash or the roman number with the nodge.3rd floor gets two triangles etc.

If there would be more walls across they could be marked with a square.

All marks should be carved in across the grain.

TTRAG has survey forms that will cover all the points.

My suggestions are to first understand the building. Learn the lay-out method, look for references and earmarking from chisels or race knife, and order of construction most easily seen with under scarf piece placed first and by reference reversal at the last wall.

Draw a plan and typical elevations, designate the timbers based on the original earmarks. If you don't see earmarking assign a system. The common american practice is usually a grid system with alphabetical and numerical cooridinates. Number the bents 1, 2, 3, etc., in construction raise 1 first. Along the gable label post lines alphabetically, place A at front.

You can make your tags at home out of flashing. A 1 x 2 strip is fine, with letter punches mark the tags.

Take down the building in reverse order, tag the timbers and mark reference side.

Good luck.

During the Cuvilly barn dismantling, Aaron used roofing washers for tagging the beams. The washers are about 2" in diameter (no hole) and look to be cut out of coated aluminum. We punched these with a letter/number set and used short screws for easy removal. The metal tags last much longer then lumber markers - just remember to remove them after re-assembly :rolleyes: .

Mike: In one sentence you've asked a question that has taken some men years of work and learning to get the answer to.
Recently I took a course put on by the guild that taught us how to make a drawing and measure a frame, tag the frame and then dismantle it. This course lasted two days, and we just scratched the surface, of all the different things you need to learn and understand. In July we will hopefully be repairing the damaged parts and re-assembling it in another town. If you have the time you should look into coming to the re-assembly process and learn from the men who are putting it on/together.
As part of the above mentioned project, we had a tour of some other barns, near by, that this same preservation company had been working on. There were two barns at this site. One was to be used as an office building for the owner and his wife. The preservation company was having trouble re-fitting this old barn to higher standards needed to comply with current building codes for it's intended use. The retro fitting was costing huge amounts of money, more than had been expected.
My first advice to you, about converting this barn into a home is, check with your building inspector or building department of the area in which you intend to re-assemble this frame, to see if they will allow it to be converted into a home. And what new standards that you might have to comply with in order to do just that.
A tagging and labeling system for the frame parts is pretty straight forward and isn't hard to learn.
Removing the pegs and not breaking them off, causing the need to drill out the hole, takes some skill.
Proper temporary bracing with new 2x construction grade stock to hold the frame together as it's un-assembled is a must to insure that the frame is not stressed out and tenons are broken. And of course for safety reasons.
Use of a crane to lift off parts in the reverse order in which it was assembled may be necessary , again to make it safe and not break any parts.
We saw a lot of timbers that were in a great deal of stress, and after they were released from the frame, some were twisted, and bowed.
Learning how to, or which part to, take off first is important. As one instructor said, “it's a giant puzzle and you've got to find the last piece put in/on and remove it first. And then continue in this reverse order until the frame is completely disassembled.” Understanding which piece was "last' may take some careful study of the frame. And then following the plan of un-assemble is very important. Good luck with your project, Jim

Thanks to all who answered my question. When you have the will but need to know the way it's good to know that someone who has both is willing to take the time to help a guy out. Mike

Hello all on this forum:

Just thought that I would put in a little input as far as taking down and numbering the frame. I had the occasion to diassemble a 50 by 100 foot turn of the century barn which was to be repaired and reassembled. The method we used was as follows: a draftsman drew up cross section plans of each bent, floor, purlin, and roof framing, that allowed us to record numbers as we dismantled the frame. We used blank plastic cattle ear tags on which we could insert numbers using a special indelible ink pen, and nailed them on each piece to be removed always nailing on areas previously agreed to and noted on the plans such as "upper side", "lower end", you can come up with your own workable plan. We used a crane to disassemble, and we removed the wooden pegs prior to the day of disassembly, putting in smaller smooth metal pins that would hold the frame together, but that could be pulled out easily to release sections. This cenario worked well for us I hope this helps you along in your endeavours,
NH

HELLO NORTHERN HEWER

Thanks for the great advise. That is about the same thing I had in mind. Is it advisable to get a draftsman or can I draw the bents out myself? I'm quite sure we live in the same neck of the woods and would love to speak to someone who has the same interests in person. You can reach me here or at mament@sprint.ca Thanks Mike

HELLO NORTHERN HEWER

Thanks for the great advise. That is about the same thing I had in mind. Is it advisable to get a draftsman or can I draw the bents out myself? I'm quite sure we live in the same neck of the woods and would love to speak to someone who has the same interests in person. You can reach me here or at mament@sprint.ca Thanks Mike

HELLO NORTHERN HEWER

Thanks for the great advise. That is about the same thing I had in mind. Is it advisable to get a draftsman or can I draw the bents out myself? I'm quite sure we live in the same neck of the woods and would love to speak to someone who has the same interests in person. You can reach me here or at mament@sprint.ca Thanks Mike

Hello M&M:

I am sure that you can sketch out the bents yourself being very careful to include all the pieces of each section, including all the braces etc. remember that each brace may be slightly different, and should go back in the reconstructed frame in its original position and oriented properly , that is why for instance I would tack on the numbering tags always in the same position (eg. outside surface, lower ends for instance). Also remember that the original foundation may or maynot have been perfectly level, and could easily have been out of level 4 or 5 inches from one corner to another, this would have required some adjustments to the braces on the raising day of long ago. Your new foundation with any luck will no doubt be nearly perfectly level which can be accomplished easily with today's knowhow and tools. This may mean that some adjustment will be necessary on your raising day coming up. I used a draftsman because I had one at my disposal and he was just directed to come up with the type of plans that fit the job at hand. If the frame has spent a good deal of its life twisted because of deteriorated foundations stones or supports shifting, the timbers may not want to return to their original framing lines, this in itself may cause you some headackes on the reconstruction day. You may have to use a little force to bring the plates and posts back to their old postions, but be careful because excessive force can cause timbers to crack, and tenons to snap. if alot of force is needed apply alittle each day letting the timber gradually straighten out gently.
I hope this helps
NH

Do you guys reuse the old pegs if possible and what process do you use to make new ones? (whittled out by hand or machined?)Also is there such a thing as a timberframer in the Toronto area that I could hire to make adjustments during raising day(s).
thanks Mike

Hi Mike,

Have you established if your frame was laid out using scribe rule or square rule? It makes a difference in the documentation approach we use.

Oh, and by the way, it's impossible to take too many pictures before during and after disassembly.

Rudy

Mike: One way to find a timber framer in your area is to go to the timber framers guild home page and click on 'resource guide' in the upper right hand corner. Then click on timber framer and enter your area. This should give you a list of timber framers in your area with names, addresses and phone numbers. You could try emailing them if their email address is listed.
In the resource guide is also a company listed that makes pegs for timber framing.
Or you could make your own, by splitting the wood and then shaping them to size using a drawn knife. It depends on what you want to do, or how you want to correctly restore your frame.
At the Cuvilly barn 'un-raising' we numbered all the pegs with their location so that if, in good condition, they could be reused. Some will have to be replaced as they were broken, or drilled out.

Good luck with your project and keep asking questions.

HiRudy
How do I tell if it's scribe rule or square rule? I did see something about that on this site but don't know where now. Also what documentation procedure do you use?
Thanks Mike

Hi Jim
I tried what you suggested but nothing shows up for timberframers or peg suppliers in Ontario but I'll keep looking.
Thanks Mike

Mike: For the peg supplier put in New Hampshire, and you'll find the one I was referring too.
That's funny, when I did a search for timber framers, just now, it lists three in Ontario. I'm not sure if any of them are near you. If you can't find them again let me know and I'll copy my search screen and email it to you directly.
If you want to make your own pegs, I have a set of plans for a shaving horse. And pictures of how to split your peg stock. Good luck, Jim

I think you found a glitch. Try this, go to 'Members Only' then search membership. Use the abbreviation ON in the state/province field, typing out Ontario will yield no results.

Hi Mike,

The difference between scibe and square rule framing in a nutshell is standardization of building components to fit the particular building pattern. The easiest way to tell is to look for markings (carpenter's marks) at the joints that often look like (or are) Roman Numerals. If the frame has them, it's probably completely or partially scribe rule. I just looked at a frame today at an old grist mill in Yellow Springs Ohio that has scibe rule markings but also has square rule type housings in the roof system. Probably built by someone who learned to frame scribe, but was learning square.

The reason for the carpenters marks is to make sure each piece in the frame goes back exactly where it was scribed to fit. Consequently, you don't need to mark the pieces as you take the frame apart since they already are. You do need to make (or hire someone to) very good frame drawings and put all the marks you find on them as you take everything apart. Make sure to put the marks on the drawings where they are on each piece in the frame.

If the frame has no marks, it's probably square or mill rule. In that case you need to mark or tag the timbers as you go. We use a simple system that looks at the frame in plan view. The posts are usually in rows in two directions. They are lined up within the bents, and most often lined up across the bents too. Once you have a plan view of the post feet, you can identify the bents from left to right as Roman numerals and top to bottom with letters of the alphabet. Each post ends up with an alphanumeric ID like IA, IIC or VIB. For the most part, that's all you need since the walls girts, rafters, braces etc. are all the same within the pattern. If you need to add a third dimension, we use English numbers so a low wall girt might be IIA1 while the one above it is IIA2.

Clear as mud? It all makes sense when you do it.

Hope this helps.

Rudy

Roger: I'm not sure what 'glitch' you're talking about, but when I go to the tfguild home page and click on 'resource guide' and then click on the little arrow on the end of the box that says: "State or province(blank)" it lists all the state and provinces. I then scrolled down until it listed Ontario, and I clicked on that. Then I clicked on category and again using the little down arrow scrolled down to the listing 'timber framers' and then clicked on that, then hit search.
The search resulted in three names, address, and phone numbers with email address of timber framers in Ontario. This is, I believe, available to all, not just members. If you can't find these names using this system then the glitch must be on your end, because it works for me every time, whether I'm logged in or not. Good luck, Jim

Hi Jim

The most valuable feature of Guild membership is access to the roles. So anyone about to embark on a costly tf project could find valuable help in their region by searching the membership list. There are 71 guild members in Ontario, a very large portion are building professionals.

Re-read my post the glitch is clearly stated.

If anyone needs to find services, they should join the guild, meet the people and increase their knowledge.

Hi to all

I found the glitch. It's me trying to operate a computer properly.I found the names and thanks again for the info

Roger: I agree with your valuable feature statement, 100%, that's why I'm a member.
It was my error to think that all members would be listed under the resource guide. Obviously they are not. I guess only those who 'sign up' to be listed under the resource guide show up there.
After following your advice, I checked the members only section and indeed did find 71 members in Ontario.
So Mike, you should consider joining to get help with your project, and learn about timber framing. Good luck with your project. Jim

Jim and Rodger
Thanks for the advise. I'm going to become a member.
Mike

Mike,
While I am not a timber framer, I have documented many Dutch barns. All of the advice the framers are passing along are indeed the way to document the structure. I would also photograph every major joint in the structure so as to have a photographic record of the marriage marks.

You could also send along a couple of photos of some major joints to a couple of people who could then tell you if it is scribe or square rule constructed.

Just some extra thoughts to help add to your "small" pile of mail.

Thanks for the tips Rolland.I plan on putting them to use in the very near future. Mike