Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
flat sawn vs quarter sawn #324 11/16/02 03:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 39
J
John Milburn Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 39
I would like to install white pine shingles on my roof and white pine clapboards (4"reveal) siding. I have read that flat sawn cups and 1/4 sawn splits very easily. the shingles will be nailed to 1x6 spaced to the shingle length an reveal, (Unknown at this time)The attic is unheated. Can the shingles be dip treated with water repellant or should I leave natural. The siding may be nailed to 4" sips or 2" foam with vertical furring strips depending on my budget. Any help or advice would be appreciated, Thanks John...

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #325 12/12/02 04:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 39
J
John Milburn Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 39
Hey you guys,will you help me out here? How about the title of a good book, Thanks, John...

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #326 12/12/02 07:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 951
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 951
Hi John,

Can I refer you to pages 42 - 46 of "Home Building and Woodworking in Colonial America" by C. Keith Wilbur (ISBN 1-56440-019-0) where he both describes and illustrates the best way to produce and apply shingles.

Jack Sobon's first book - "Timber Frame Construction" also has a short section on shingle production on pages 162 - 165.

Regards
Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #327 12/13/02 01:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,676
J
Jim Rogers Online Confused
Member
Online Confused
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,676
John:
I have both these books if you'd like to borrow them/one.
Jim


Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #328 12/13/02 01:47 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
R
Roger Nair Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
John, the two major differences between flat sawn and quarter sawn are in shrinkage and resistance to weathering. In eastern white pine radial shrinkage is 2.1% and tangential is 6.1%, so in service quarter sawn will produce much less splitting movement against fasteners. If shingles are green when layed and blunt point nails are used, you should not experience much splitting. Quarter sawn or vertical grain shingles are more resistant to erosion. A copper ridge cap and flashing will inhibit fungi. For maximum life of roof, paint the shingles. Historically, the wood shingle nail base was more like 1 x 3 rather than 1 x 6, in this case more is not likely better. Shingles require ventilation and air exposure on the underside.

Also the Forest Products Lab web site has many resouces for free download. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #329 12/15/02 04:13 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
R
Roger Nair Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
Roof and wall manuals are available from Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau, loads of detailing. http://www.cedarbureau.org/

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #330 12/16/02 01:08 PM
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 78
M
milton Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 78
Greetings:
I am unaware of any hand converted (split) white pine shake in my area though they would have been gone long ago. The collective wisdom of the past pine product is: a standing dead tree makes a great shingle, no sap wood will survive roof service, q-sawn splits way too easy, put the heart side of the shingle up or to the weather (when wet the edges will stay tight) , tight growth rings for longevity, don't nail too tight, let it breathe on furring over air space even over plywood, maintain an edge space, triple coverage please, lead or copper at the ridge cap.
Shingles work best if they are considered the wear surface not the water proofing.

We still use pine claps with minimal sap wood, smallish tight knots and good oil, stain, or paint. Local pine claps are resawn from flat sawn and finished 1 x 6 so you have little choice of of weather side out: choose either rough or smooth, not grain orientation. The rough holds a pile of finish (prime both sides) liquids and seems to hold up well enough. For me it is a great local product. Siding over an air space is good if you remember to keep the critters out of that space, roll ridge vent of that "scrubby" looking material is one way I have seen it done. I have seen radial sawn cedar and spruce claps on the maket but the lengths are usually short.
Good luck,
Curtis

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #331 12/16/02 08:24 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
R
Roger Nair Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
Orientation to the weather or wear of flat sawn boards has advocates for both sides. I was taught bark side, if I remember correctly Audel's was bark side, the following link to "Wood Properties Affecting Finish Service Life" from FPL is bark side. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2000/willi00a.pdf

From page 6, "Perhaps the greatest difficulty asso-ciated
with the use of flat-grained lum-ber
is the increased potential for grain
raising and grain separation (Figures 9a
and 9b). Raised grain, which results in a
corrugated appearance on the surface of
flat-grained lumber, usually occurs when
the harder latewood portion of each an-nual
growth ring is projected above the
level of the softer earlywood. This usu-ally
occurs when dry flat-grained lum-ber
is allowed to pick up moisture. When
the interface between the latewood and
earlywood becomes loosened, the result
is separated grain, also known as loos-ened
grain, shelling, feathering, or lift-ing
of the grain. Raised or separated
grain is much more pronounced on the
pith side than on the bark side of flat-grained
lumber. The primary method of
preventing problems with grain separa-tion
is to orient the bark side rather than
the pith side of the product to the
weather."

Sapwood can be a major portion of a flat sawn board or shingle, likewise juvenile wood should be avoided in exterior exposed boards or shingles.

Research during the past 30 years has given about a 9mm/century erosion rate to w. red cdar on a vertical test fence. On an 45 degree inclined test fence facing south erosion rates double on most wood species. The thickest part of the standard #1 perfection shingle is 45/100 in.

Wood shingles yield a limited life span, high maintenence and expensive roof. I would look for alternatives.

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #332 12/20/02 01:33 AM
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 78
M
milton Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 78
Hi Roger and all:
It would appear that the lessons I was taught may be in error. All sources agree, pith down. Proof again that: learn a lesson from only one source and that is what you know. Does not make it right.
Try wetting a shingle on the heart side then another on the bark side. Which lays flatter?
I am sorry that I passed along what I thought to be certain knowledge in error.

Unpainted pine board and batten (12 inch)has been known to pull nails and be almost impossible to even fasten when applied bark side out. I can show you cedar roofs that don't lay flat when it rains and I am sure the shingles that are floating and flying are bark to the weather.

But again, read and follow the directions of the manufacturer. Then check back in ten years to see if they are the same.

Great input Roger. Wood roofs are expensive, best kept out of the sun, but they do look great at least for a while.

Curtis

Re: flat sawn vs quarter sawn #333 12/21/02 02:00 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
R
Roger Nair Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
As a carpenter I look at wood with my eyes and identify characteristics by what I see, The wood researchers use the instruments of science to see what happens at the cellular and chemical levels. The researchers say that the warping from weathering has less to do with grain orientation and more with differential wetting and drying and the resulting cellular compression and collapse which produces the familiar compression set in weathered wood. So the more I read about wood usage issues, I am certain that any choice to be made is more like a balancing act than a clearly superior choice based on what I can see.

About twenty years ago I was tasked with trouble shooting a very leaky 40 square shake roof about 7 years into service on a contemporary post and beam house, open to the roof. "Nail base insulated panels" homasote and urethane-like foam laminated panel, were nailed to a t&g roof deck. The shakes were 24 inch with about 10 inch to the weather. A split roll, 18 inches wide, 30 lb felt was laid over every shingle course. The shingles were very badly curled, the nails were pulling out of the homasote and the felt was torn. The felt and shingle interlace may by used by some roofers or builders over plywood and panels, avoid it.


Moderated by  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 

Newest Members
Doug_Evans, PaulNaslund, BuckeyeJim, HMRWoodcraft, howlinal
5072 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.124s Queries: 14 (0.030s) Memory: 3.1844 MB (Peak: 3.5827 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-07-06 13:48:54 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS