hi gang
i'm writing from ontario, canada and am restarting a post and beam company
one of the first things i need to deal with is how to price a frame
i would prefer to price per joint
it seems to me that each joint should carry an individual price....so that difficult joinery is more expensive than basic pockets
could some of the experienced folks write in and explain thier pricing methods?
-thanks, Mark.

@ Mark Davidson,

Jim Roger has an in depth info on that in another forum. MAybe that can give you an idea.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=20790.0

One approach that may work would be to keep track of average times for each type of joint and then apply that value against an hourly rate. For instance a tenon on an 8x8 could have a value of .5 hours. Multiply this against your desired hourly rate, say $40 per hour. You get $20 for that joint. This makes the per joint method more of an estimating tool, and allows you to make your target hourly rate. You could also add in a fudge factor to your time values, and even account for different species.

In my business experience my clients want a fairly set price before they will agree to the work. It makes it easier if there aren't going to be any surprises.

Dave

BE CAREFUL!! Make sure you consider: Material handling expenses (forklift rental, time shuffling sticks, bundling/banding for shipping); timber cleanup time, finishing, planing if desired, chamfers, etc.; time spent doing fit-up, re-cutting the piece with the extra mortises. Depending on the size, complexity and finish work desired by your customer, the non-cutting portion of your work can easily exceed the the cutting portion. Then there's the raising. I did a frame that ended up at about $70 per joint (tenon= 1 joint) which included planing, sanding out planer marks, chamfers & oiling and raising (but NOT the cost of the timber). In the end, the customer was pleased with the product and the price and I didn't lose any money but didn't make a killing either. Good Luck. I'm interested in the outcome!

I am not a timber framer - so take this with a grain of salt.

Having been part of a very small business and a medium business - it is very hard to get started with pricing plans like that. I had a painting and siding company and once tried to make a spreadsheet where I had to enter the # of windows, doors, sq footage, etc... and it came up with a price. I was all over the place. I screwed around with that for two weeks and finally gave up. I found it easier and cheaper to quote by the seat of my pants. Things that I couldn't enter into my spreadsheet like a 12/12 pitch on a roof I need to walk on really messed up my quotes.

In the medium business that I work for now, we do multi million dollar jobs. I quote these and the sales team discusses them before they are sent. These quotes are quoted by each machine we have to build. At the end, we add a "SNAFU" to cover the mistakes that inevitably happen. I like this method better because your costs are accurately shown in the cost item, and the snafu covers the screw ups. You could use this to bid by the joint and add a snafu.

Our big problem is materials. Steel can cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars if it goes up between when we bid the job and when we buy the steel. We haven't figured a way around this yet, but it's what really kills us. I can work late to get more done if I am off on labor - that never really hurts - it's the materials.

The other big lesson I've learned is to grow slowly. Three people don't usually get three times as much done as one person, especially if that one person is you. Get quality people in there and try to not add more than 1 or 2 people per year unless you have to.

When you're small it's best to keep fixed expenses low at the expense of revenues (not buying a new truck even if you do have to work on it every weekend and waiting on that new barn even if you can get more done with it). This keeps you out of trouble and keeps your margins high until you have a nice cushion set. That reason alone is why I am now working for another company and not myself anymore.

hey, thanks for the replies.
I've done a few jobs now and am beginning to get the hang of how much my timberframing costs. Growing slowly is my specialty. And the reality of working in my area is that I learn just as much about stick framing as timberframing anyway. Acutally, stick framing is pretty cool. The material is moveable by humans and easy to buy... I still get to figure out angles and structure and keep on learning...

Takes a while to get a reply around here sometimes, eh Mark...?!