Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: set back mortises [Re: Mark Davidson] #16057 06/27/08 07:47 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,687
J
Jim Rogers Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,687
When designing joinery, I usually start with establishing some "general frame rules."
These are rules that most if not all of the joints of the frame will have to adhere to.
Some standard general frame rules I use when designing a square rule frame are:

General Frame Rules:

1.) All timbers are framed down to the next one half inch in size.
2.) Joints are laid out two inches off the layout face and two inches thick.
3.) Bents are laid out from the South, except the North most bent.
4.) Braces are framed to four inches thick.
5.) All tenons are trimmed by 1/8" in length.

For quite some time I've been using the first four and just added the last one as it was assumed by me that everyone knew this, and I found that not everyone does.

When we cut joints here, during workshops, we cut the reference side of the joint first to establish that it is correctly spaced off the reference side. And then we make the tenon the correct thickness taking the back off and working down towards that thickness.
After that is done we have the tenon the correct offset of the reference face and also thick enough, we make it the correct width.
That usually means trimming off one side to the 1/2" under rule and creating the reduction along the timber.
When a tenon is joining a beam near the end of the beam there is a short section of the beam left to have enough relish on the end of the beam to make a mortise on all four sides of the tenon.

But when the tenon joins a beam in the middle it usually is flush to one side, the adjacent side. If it is housed then the mortise shouldn't show much when the timber shrinks.

One good drawing I saw years ago in timber framing and one that I have recreated to use to teach the correct terms is this one:




Jim Rogers


Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Re: set back mortises [Re: Jim Rogers] #16058 06/27/08 08:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
I couldn't help but think multi-shouldered tenoning has been the practice of cabinet/furniture makers for centuries.

Perhaps in the early days of timber framing--which is by nature rougher than cabinetry--(I can hear the howls now!)builders were not concerned w/ hiding their mortises or concerned w/ shrinkage issues, etc. Barns were barns and joinery in homes was often covered, etc.

Now that timber framing has been "revived" joinery is celebrated instead of hidden. I guess it seems natural that some approach the craft today more like furniture making.

So Mo's original notion that full/ multi-shouldering is done today to save time (Just cut all the tenons , the mortise is hidden, etc) may in fact be just a transition from the furniture world and a step up in quality, fit and finish.

With today's standardized timbers all planed smooth, a frame really is like a big piece of furniture. Why not create the extra shoulders? And I agree w/ Mark Davidson: a handsaw is a quick way to handle things.


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: set back mortises [Re: mo] #16362 07/30/08 04:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20
F
fordh Offline
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 20
The shop I work in uses mostly mill rule which we utilize this trick and have named it a "Blind Tenon". It certainly does take a bit more time; however, a hand saw and chisel skill, makes quick and easy work of it. We use it at post to plate connections. And it seems to do a fine job of hiding the mortise and tenon (if one is into that). I have never seen how the joint looks after the wood has become stable.

Re: set back mortises [Re: fordh] #16372 07/30/08 10:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
mo Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
thanks for the replies everyone. good information. Can pegging placement promote directional shrinkage? If you wanted a post to girt connection and you did not want to box the tenon on all four sides but three instead could you peg towards the "unboxed" face on the tenon and have the shrinkage occur on the other side? It seems that I have heard this somewhere. Any thoughts or experience with this.

Re: set back mortises [Re: mo] #16396 08/01/08 03:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
mo Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
it is easier to pull than push

Re: set back mortises [Re: mo] #16413 08/02/08 06:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,124
M
Mark Davidson Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,124
Is it really easier to pull than push? I think not always. There are times I would rather use a western saw to push cut something than a japanese saw to pull cut. Pull cut chisels??

Re: set back mortises [Re: Mark Davidson] #17059 10/14/08 01:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 48
B
bloveland Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 48
we do it for any post(like gabel said)is high spec. it doesnt' take as long as mo makes it seem. plus, although this is not the main reason, in out shop low man on the totem pole may get stuck with the mortiser all day, maybe all week and it puts my mind a rest knowing that he can't really screw it up unless he falls asleep on the mortiser.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 

Newest Members
Bradyhas1, cpgoody, James_Fargeaux, HFT, Wrongthinker
5137 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.036s Queries: 16 (0.019s) Memory: 3.1907 MB (Peak: 3.5815 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-05-05 19:09:54 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS