Originally Posted By: Whit Holder

"OurBarns1, you should check out this link: FrameWiki
Your comment about bringing experts and everyone else together in cyberspace to discuss framing history reminded me of the Fellowship's attempt at that. Perhaps we could do a North American version?"

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A lightbulb just went off... I think we have a North American "assemblege of folks" like the FrameWiki already... it's called TTRAG.

Jim Derby (Housewright) posts here form time to time. I wish more of the others did. The TFG lists the following as members of TTRAG:

Dan Boyle
Michael Burrey
Rudy Christian
Abbott Lowell Cummings
Jim Derby
Jim Doyle
Bob Ensminger
Shaun Garvey
Dave Lanoue
Rick Lazarus
Jan Lewandoski
John McNamara
Randy Nash
Paul Oatman
Sam Owens
Doug Reed
Jack Sobon
Arron Sturgis

I looked into the criteria and want to join TTRAG as it seems to be just what I outlined in the first post of this thread. But I hope membership in TTRAG would have value, i.e., TTRAG folks have a forum where members can share and learn the historic angles of TF... kind of like this forum.

Can anyone speak to the value of being a TTRAG member? How could TTRAG be improved?

Perhaps posting a new thread would be appropriate for the TTRAG side of things here...

Ken:

You mistook my idea regarding TTRAG members and their research being presented here. I'm not advocating this forum for that. What I'd like is to create an online community of like-minded historical aficionados...many of them authors. Indeed,as you say, "a who's who."

TTRAG was created in 1990 and could no doubt benefit greatly from this "new" technology we have here in the forum. Perhaps password-protected discussions in said forum could be used if ever complete surveys were shared.

It just seems a pity to not have more of the TTRAG community participating here.

Sorry, this should have preceeded the last post


Originally posted by Ken Hume:

Hi Don,

The membership list of TTRAG is a bit like a "who's who" in the world of timber framing and this might well result in new members wondering whether they will be able to contribute in any meaningful way. There is also quite an onerous membership qualification requirement which is a bit off putting.

I have recently started recording old buildings in Blewbury, Oxfordshire and have just assembled my first recording team to tackle a late 1500's 3 bay box framed chimney house complete with thatched roof. I have specifically chosen a good mix of first timers and old hands so that there can be cross fertilisation of ideas, skills and experience. The main problem that we face is in the publication of our recording work i.e. where an owner of a historic building is kind enough to invite a recording team to survey an interesting house they might not be so keen on the drawings / photos being published in the public domain and there also exists the issue of respecting the copyright of individual recording materials contributers e.g. those who prepare cross section drawings or photographs.

Hi Don,

Ah ha - I clearly did not pick up correctly on what you said but fortunately I still concurr with your restated broader objectives however do we really need another forum ?

Both TFG and CF have members who are knowledgeable in the design and construction of timber frame structures. I am also aware of another parallel community that exists mainly to record, research and analyse vernacular buildings and the trick might be to establish a forum where there could be an interchange of ideas and information. One of the problems with this "other world" is that it can get a bit stuffy, bitchy, jealously protective and maybe a bit more willing to take than to give.

Following up on Whit's advice about falling TFG membership numbers might it not be better for TFG to take the lead and provide that forum and encourage a new class of international membership where top class information exchange might be fostered, encouraged and supported. I know from first hand experience that this is a proposal fraught with difficulties but maybe some one with better skills than me knows how to make this work. Jim Rogers has had good sucess with his Forestry Forum - is that the kind of model that you have in mind ? Other ideas for consideration please but as Don requests please stay "on topic"

Regards

Ken Hume

Don, Ken,
One of the main benefits of being a TTRAG member is participation in their member meeting in the fall. This is a very intensive symposium that include some in-depth tours of old buildings. It's sort of like how the original TTRAG Conferences were like, that quickly outgrew that format.

Another advantage is that TTRAG members are looked to for advice by the public as well as members. They are the recognized experts in the Guild on historic timber frames.

Many TTRAG members do not use the internet so I wouldn't expect them to be the mainstay of an online group.

After the initial membership criteria of surveys and presentations the only requirement to maintain membership is an annual presentation at the member meeting, or a survey. These presentations are very informal and may only be 10-15 minutes long. TTRAG members don't find this onerous and ensures their membership includes serious students of the craft.

Hi Will,


I am sure that the existing TTRAG members do not find the entry and ongoing membership requirement onerous but what about the aspiring members who fail to cross the threshold in the first place? In order to produce a reasonable building recording report a person has to learn both the techniques involved and most importantly how to interpret the building that is being studied and especially the evolution or changes that are to be found within historic buildings. In my experience this is best done by shadowing a more experienced person and thus I would have thought that proactive provision and encouragment should be made to both attract, retain and grow novices into experts.


What is a historic timber frame expert ?

Since we are talking about historic timber framed buildings, then by virtue of their age, very few people alive today actually have first hand experience of just how they were actually built and instead we rely to a great extent on detail examination of old frames to see whether we can find and interpret the signs and signatures left behind by those who have gone before. Some of this practice and the reasons for it are unfortunately now lost in the mists of time e.g. apotropaic marking and eye sockets (Check out B Bunker).

From time to time I flatter myself into thinking that I am an old buildings expert only to feel a tug on my elbow and have a novice ask the question - "What's that" or "why are these numbers not in sequence". These moments can be sobering and yet at the same time its rewarding to discover that even the novice can make a valuable contribution. We might well not know the answer but at least we now know the question that needs to be answered !


I think that the point that Don might well have been making was that waiting all year for an event to happen that he (and me) cannot afford to attend anyway might not necessarily be the best solution. The TFG forum offers a daily update for contributors and recipients alike but even this has yet to find its zenith. The work being done by others elsewhere on this forum to pioneer the use of 3D modelling software like Sketchup and the increased use of "U tube" might well overtake the need to spend large amounts of money on travel and accomodation in order to gain valuable insights into past practice.


I believe that Americans have a saying in response to this type of observation which goes something like - "Get with the program".

This comment really gets to the hub of the matter. It would appear that a group of computer illiterate experts are being used as a valid excuse for not pushing forward the boundaries open to all of the 2758 registered users on this forum who by virtue of their registration have demonstrated both their willingness and capability to at least attempt to grasp and employ web based technology to assist in their earnest endeavour to improve and share their knowledge and understanding of timber frame design and construction.

Elsewhere on this forum Joel has posted a thread seeking ways in which TFG membership numbers can be expanded and one has to ask the question why are there now 2758 persons registered on the forum but only 1495 TFG members. The balance might now be considered to have swung very much in favour of web based membership and as such an effort to satisfy the needs of this group of people might now be long overdue.

My Best Regards

Ken Hume

Bravo, Ken!


If I may:

I think we all agree TTRAG is a who's who of TF. They are the major league players who love the craft and lament the constant erosion of a time-honored trade. It is through their efforts groups like this "Guild" even begin... they seek out one another to celebrate, learn, perhaps hold workshops, with the ultimate goal of preservation and dissemination of skills and existing models of the craft. Of course, something must drive it all...ZEST!...and we all know how exciting our topic is--one that's highly facinating and diverse. Few buildings are the same.

"Seeking out" is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle for these aims. Well, friends, the internet is high octane fuel for the seeking. We no longer rely on telephones and postage stamps to find those interested, or to put conferences together (that Ken has mentioned) happen few and far between...or ask if purlin roof systems are common in a particular area. Just get online and ask, discuss, share pictures...

I have never been to a TTRAG event. But it is time we hear from more TTRAG members here. Even if they don't have computers, which I thought might be the case, they surely have been to a library and seen those things that look like a marriage between a typewriter and a TV. Perhaps the next TTRAG conference should include a presentation on using a public computer?

Like I said in another post, my desire to hear from TTRAG folks on this forum is not completley selfish-- They too stand to benefit in any ongoing research they may be involved in by asking the rank-and-file about buildings far and wide. Google Books alone would no doubt be facinating to them. They would absolutely love the information availible from other enthusiasts and groups all over TF-Land. They'd probably kick themselves...

To ignore the "tools" at hand for research these days is a loss to all of us who love the craft, and goes against the principles of the seeking.
Please come and join us.



Ken, my thought all along has been to incorporate TTRAG folks into this forum. You're right, we do not need any more forums. This is the most likely place for TTRAG folks.

Don, are you attending this years TTRAG in York, ME, April 17-19?

Tim

I think we should all remember that anyone can join TTRAG as long as they take the necessary steps. I do not consider the requirements to be onerous. You must simply demonstrate your continued involvement in the preservation and/or study of historic frames.

Telling a member of the "ox and pulley crowd" (as they are sometimes affectionately referred to) to "get with the program" and buy a computer and join this forum so we can communicate with you....You would probably have better luck just picking up the phone. They're all in the membership directory.


While there may be 2760 registered users of this forum, how many are spiders or bots or spammers or duplicates or one time users who haven't been back or homeowners whose house is complete and have moved on to other hobbies.

Comparing the registered users of an online forum to members of the Timber Framers Guild is a little off-base in my opinion. Lest we forget, it is the members of the Guild that pay for this forum. It is one of many member services. It just happens to be available to the general public at no cost.

While I am very interested in growing the amount and quality of participation in this forum, let's remember that the Guild is a little bit more than an online chat room. Those who have never attended a meeting or rendezvous will not have the same perspective as those who have, but my initial impulse is to say "get with the program"

Seriously, though, if you can come to the TTRAG conference in Maine in April, do it. or the Western Conference in Oregon in in March. Or the John C Campbell Blacksmith Shop Project in North Carolina in May/June. Or the Rendezvous in Kentucky in July. Or the Eastern Conference in New York in November. Get involved. If you're not a Guild member, join. The next step is to attend a meeting. Then join a committee (they're open to anyone). Get involved .... then you will see the magic.

Hi Gabel,

You make some good points and these are not lost on me. I have attended many Guild Conferences and have even run a pre conference workshop, have hosted Guild member trips to England, and so I think that I am very much "with the program". I remain deeply indebted to many individual Guild members and executives who have gone out of their way to help me and it is my earnest hope and endeavour to be able to return those kindnesses in kind.

Most of what you have outlined above is well known and well established practice but I think that what both Don and me might be suggesting is to take this further and put a few more jig saw pieces in place that will ensure greater inclusivity especially for those persons who are remote from events who would incurr heavy expenditure in order to physically attend events. We are now in an economic downturn the likes of which has not been seen since the 30's and it behoves each and every one of us to try and get through this as best we can. Many people are now operating on very tight budgets so additional expenditures like attending Guild conferences are bound to be high on the list to get scratched. What alternative back up plan is being prepared by the Guild to be pursued if membership numbers continue to decline and maybe even more than is currently demonstrated (see Whit's note).

I no longer believe that it's "either or" but more "both".

Undoubtedly one of the reasons why the Guild executives have recently posted these new forums is I am sure to canvass opinions from all i.e members, past members and potential future members in an attampt to swell Guild numbers further and hence increase the Guild's revenues. The Guild needs to understand the rationale of all of us - even the "lost souls" in order to be able to address their needs and wants.

Its time to think real hard.

Regards

Ken Hume