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Estimating joinery time #18812 03/27/09 02:06 AM
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Shaun Garvey Offline OP
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I'm suprised I haven't found anything on this in the archives:

I'm curious to hear how others are estimating their joinery time. I'm frustrated by how long it takes some of my seemingly experienced employees to cut joinery. I don't know if I'm expecting too much or not because I don't have enough background on anyone but, well, mainly myself to guage by. Has anyone published estimating time tables based on historic data? Is there already a thread on this I haven't found? If there is no such thing in existance, well, here is our chance to be first at something...

Now before this turns into a bragging session, I'm talking about honest estimates, you PR for one joint is of no interest to anyone. We'll, maybe that can be a whole 'nother thread... I'm looking for your daily pace knowing you have to get up and do it all over again tomorrow: nice work done with efficiency and safety in mind. If we're doing this for a living we're in one of two groups: trying to make ourselves money, or trying to make our boss money, and we're all trying to produce quality work.

We all have varying techniques and are working in different situations and with different species and styles or timber, which can easily cloud the question.

So to standardize this as much as possible, lets assume a fresh cut pine timber is sitting in front of you, on horses in a level-floored shop and your tools are all at hand, layout has already been done and all you have to do is cut.

How long does it take you to produce a nicely finished:

2"x8"x8" long tenon
2"x8"x4 deep unhoused mortise
a 2' long halved and bladed scarf (2 8x8s)
make typical brace tenons (one in each end of a 3x5 brace)

all complete with peg holes and ready for assembly.


I'll get things started with what I use for estimating time on each of the above: 30 minutes, 30 minutes, 2 hours and 30 minutes. Of course, when I do a real estimate I account for set-up, layout, coffer break, screw-ups etc... but let's keep this simple.

I look forward to your responses and thanks for sharing.

Shaun


Shaun Garvey
berkshirebarns.com
Dalton, MA
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Shaun Garvey] #18814 03/27/09 02:51 AM
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bmike Offline
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Power tools? Hand only?


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: ] #18815 03/27/09 02:51 AM
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bmike Offline
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not at all. can be quite nice to work if you have a good sawyer.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: ] #18817 03/27/09 11:04 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Now if that had been a fresh cut, waney, sappy, pine, where you had to use turpentine for clean up, that could be daunting. What was your time?

In all seriousness, I think this is one of the taboo topics, and is why it is not spoken of much, we tip toe around the edges. Another taboo is the sizing of timber. With modern computer technology why is there not a program for sizing timber for the species and length? Job security, perhaps.

Shaun, your number are within my ballpark. I may cut the 2.5 hrs on the scarf to 0 due to the long 56' plate with no scarf. And you did not give a time for the braces. With a skill saw put another 30 minutes on the whole brace, both ends to your completed specs, you may be able to treat them in a mass production and cut that to 15min., though. There are a lot of variables, and I find it all comes down to the individual and how that one person works, this applies to every thing in life. There is a fine line between the proper detail needed to construct the joinery needed and that which is executed to the .001 of an inch, may I say annal retention.

On to the power tool and hand too aspect of this. It is my experience that power tool are faster but less accurate. Now before I get stepped all over, let me say, this is from a perspective in favor of hand tools, keep that in mind. I will put it like this, a power tool cuts too fast and an over cut is likely. So to cut a joint accurately you must stay shy of the line, meaning it now needs to be cut by hand, requiring two steps. Hand tools allow the steps to happen in one process without the possibility of the over cut, in turn, saving time and achieving the accuracy needed.

bmike, what does a good sawyer have to do with sappy pine, does your sawyer have a trick worth sharing? Inquiring minds want to know. We are now working some sticky pine, at least the square stays put.

Tim

Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: TIMBEAL] #18818 03/27/09 11:09 AM
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Shaun Garvey Offline OP
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anything but mortisers; the only power tools we use for such work are circular saws and 1/2" drills for the main cuts and borings, then its all chisels, handsaws and axes.


Shaun Garvey
berkshirebarns.com
Dalton, MA
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Shaun Garvey] #18819 03/27/09 11:11 AM
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Shaun Garvey Offline OP
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and wood type really, it doesn't have much impact on time so choose any species you wish. We work mostly vintage timber of varying species and new white oak.


Shaun Garvey
berkshirebarns.com
Dalton, MA
Re: Estimating joinery time #18821 03/27/09 12:10 PM
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bmike Offline
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i don't know tim, maybe i've just been lucky.

when i've done mixed log and square work from pine the log parts were always sticky, usually just under the bark (cambium?). on the last barn i cut i had 1 timber out of 151 that was 'sticky' and sappy. lots of 8x10 and 8x8.

and in working with pine at the last 'job' i think i could count on 1 hand the number of 'sticky' pieces i've dealt with over 4 years.


perhaps its more of a supplier issue - perhaps the timber i received had been in the yard in log form for quite awhile... or perhaps i've gotten lucky.

not sure.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: bmike] #18822 03/27/09 12:47 PM
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Will Truax Offline
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The Tamarack I was working recently was full of bleeding pitch pockets. Pine I’ve worked in the south where there is not really any such thing as wintercut tends to weep, but if the sawyer is doing as asked, and sawing from the piles of wintercut in the logyard, it is usually easy to tell, for this very reason.

Shaun – The times you mention are on par with what I see as norms...

Though in my experience, species and state (dry/green) does heavily influence, both the time needed, and which tools to reach for – Recycled and White Oak are both on the time consuming to cut and the reach for the recoil or electron hose, end of the spectrum.

Where are you getting White Oak sticks in the Berkshires ?


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: TIMBEAL] #18823 03/27/09 01:15 PM
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bmike Offline
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Tim - maybe I've just been lucky. Last frame I hand cut (power and push pull) 151 pieces, I had 1 that was 'sticky'.

Maybe its more of a supplier issue than a sawyer issue - perhaps the logs were in the yard for quite a while before being milled?

Last time (6 years ago?) I worked on round and square - the rounds were miserable to work with - layer just under bark (cambium?) was a mess. Wasn't until you got into the core that things were pleasant.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Will Truax] #18825 03/27/09 01:52 PM
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DKR Offline
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It would be interesting to track your shop for a month to see what you actually do. I'm cutting my own frame, and I'm not in the business. My times to be more like
45 minutes on the large tenon, 15 minutes on the unhoused mortise (I have a chain mortiser), and 30 minutes for a brace tenon, and I've not yet done a scarf joint. If I can do it in these times, anyone can. I did a short apprenticeship in a shop a few years ago. The joiners were all good. Some were very fast (too) and some were slower and more particular. But what I observed was a lot of down time. Talking about girls, talking about cars, puzzling over the strength of a timber, looking a plans to try to figure things out, waiting on timbers, moving timbers, etc. These guys weren't lazy by any means. They were just typical employees like most businesses have. Some spend time at the water cooler, and a lot of office employees these days spend a lot of time surfing the internet. It's rare in any business to find employees who keep their nose to the grindstone like the business's owners do. I guess what I'm saying is that you probably need to take your ideal day (16 joints a day on average) and multiply it by a factor (60%?) to get an accurate frame estimate.

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