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Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: DKR] #18829 03/27/09 03:42 PM
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Gabel Offline
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Shaun,

Half hour on the through tenon is about right.

For us the average time on a 2x4 mortise 8" long would be closer to 15 min. (mortiser).

I would hope to layout and cut the braces all at once and get it to around 20 min. per brace (including layout with a template).

that's probably a good number for both halves of the scarf.

That would not include set up, layout, sharpening, material handling, supervision, project management, sanding, oiling, waxing, etc (as you noted).

I think we don't talk about this too much because we are afraid that some people who are watching might be the ones we gave a quote to last week and they might crunch some numbers and think we are trying to charge too much if they think they know how long it takes us to cut a joint. In reality anyone that would try to do that based on such incomplete information is probably not a likely prospect anyway, so I'm not too worried about it.


As for thinking your guys are taking too long -- some people are good at cutting joinery fast and others never will be. We've had guys that were really slow, but did neat work. We tried to keep them busy doing fussy stuff and keep the other guys doing the bulk of the production. That doesn't always work out, though.

What we found is that a carpenter who can lay out and cut timbers fast and cleanly without supervision or whip cracking and who can track from task to task without bogging down is an extremely valuable asset for a company our size and not easy to find (at least around here).


At the end of the day, your numbers are yours and mine are mine and they don't translate too well. Thorough record keeping is the only way to dial in the accuracy of your estimating. Different tooling, different conditions, different wages and different costs make estimating and pricing a pretty individualized thing.

Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Will Truax] #18841 03/27/09 09:58 PM
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Shaun Garvey Offline OP
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not enough White Oak to bother looking for in the Berkshires, unfortunitely. We get ours in nearby NY. Meltz Lumber in Ghent. Nice folks, you need be specific about the quality you require and not be affraid to reject bad sticks, but they cut a ton of it daily.

Shaun


Shaun Garvey
berkshirebarns.com
Dalton, MA
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Shaun Garvey] #18848 03/28/09 04:03 AM
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Mark Davidson Offline
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I kept track of joinery time on a fairly big frame last year, maybe this topic will inspire me to organize it and put it all together.
For now though I'll second Gabel's post. I think those times are good, and if you're worried about time get a chain mortiser.

Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Mark Davidson] #18851 03/28/09 10:45 AM
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I have often thought piece meal could work for pay compensation on the shop floor. You get paid for the volume of wood removed, this of course would be applied to a fairly well cut joint, accurate. A, 2"x8"x4" mortice and it's 1"x8"x9" housing equals .944 board feet, time(x) three (three bents) equals 2.832 board feet of wood removed. In case you are wondering these are the pockets for post on a top plate. To layout and cut these it takes 30 minutes each, 1.5 hours total. Here is the variable, what do you pay per hour? Is this being paid to the new kid with not a care in the world, or the new kid with a wife and 2 kids, or to the older fellow, single and no other obligations? Do you consider these factors in the pay for work completed? Let me stretch this out a bit further, is this home for a school teacher or a AIG CEO who works for a buck/year and receives $millions in bonuses for that year, or a farmer that needs a place for his hay and animals? Just thought I would through this in as another glitch in the pricing dilemma.

I am going to plead the 5th on how I address that issue.

Tim

Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: TIMBEAL] #18867 03/28/09 05:14 PM
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Shaun Garvey Offline OP
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I've considered your approach, Tim. Thanks. Plenty of industries work that way and it is an easy way to turn a costly employee into a profitable one. I will give it more thought, now that you've brought it to my attention again.

re: the taboo of this question: why? if any of you think you have knowledge that is too good to share then why haven't I seen your picture on the cover of fortune magazine? I don't consider these to be industry secrets, rather estimating 101. I make money on my work so I know I'm not doing anything wrong. My simple problem is I have one employee who costs me money while the rest make me money. I'm looking for a knowledge base to lean on when I confront the issue in the near future.

Before I decided to start my business 5 years ago, I spent 10 years working as a project manager in an engineering department for a paper company. I'm not green to the ways of managing people or projects. None of us are above seeking helpful advice from colleagues.

Establishing a baseline for comparing a joiner's worth should be considered valuable knowledge to all of us.




Shaun Garvey
berkshirebarns.com
Dalton, MA
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Shaun Garvey] #18871 03/28/09 07:57 PM
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Jim Rogers Online Confused
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Originally Posted By: Shaun Garvey
My simple problem is I have one employee who costs me money while the rest make me money. I'm looking for a knowledge base to lean on when I confront the issue in the near future.



You have that right there in your shop.
You have the rest that make you money, to use as a baseline for the one that doesn't and show him that they do, and that he doesn't.
See if this will motivate him to try harder and pull his weight.
Have them teach him what they do that's right and how it makes them faster.

Or have them show you what they do so that you can show him, maybe he'll take it better coming from you, then from them.

Jim Rogers


Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: Jim Rogers] #18886 03/29/09 10:37 PM
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timber brained Offline
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sound like Gabel and Jim just about covered it. I know in most cases the group usually sets the standard for how fast and quality which one can produce. If one is not at that level, he should at least be trying really hard to get there, if not there is probably a problem.
It seems that some work at a faster pace, but as long as an employee has work ethic they will be potentially efficient enough to employ. Unfortunately, I find these people with self contained work ethic realy rare and the rest often will try to get away with what they can. It is the person that feels wrong for being paid, while not producing the work he/she is being paid to do, that I always look for when hiring an employee.
I do know repetition , templates, chain mortisers, are all really helpful to attaining more speed and efficiency.
Also when it is affordable to hire a helper to sharpen,care for the tools, help with all those odds and ends does really speed up the cutting. Usually this helper can be paid much less. In the restaurant business we call them dishwashers, though they often end up doing a lot more than washing dishes. tb

Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: timber brained] #18889 03/30/09 12:15 AM
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Shaun Garvey Offline OP
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Some solid advise and insight, thanks. It is a tough call for sure. We aren't a cut shop and I don't have anyone whos spends all day every day cutting joints and we're rarely joining two new pices of wood together or even doing more than 2 or 3 of the same joint in an entire job. Our work is quite unique and tough to gauge by others I guess.

The hardest part is this guy goes all day, non stop. He looks like he's working hard, he thinks he's working hard and he means well, but at the end of the day not much is accomplished... It it weren't my payroll I'd think it rather comical.

My cross to bear I guess.



Shaun Garvey
berkshirebarns.com
Dalton, MA
Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: timber brained] #18899 03/30/09 02:54 PM
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daiku Offline
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I think there are so many variables that it's hard to come up with measurements this precise. Probably the best you can do is to look at how long it took to do a particular frame and then divide by the number of joints (if that's the metric you want to use). If I had to choose only one trade secret that I would be reluctant to share with my competitors, it would be my estimating formulas. Because the truth is that I do bid against other timber framers. And while I often win even if I'm not the guy with the lowest price, I still don't want my competitors knowing what my number is going to be.

As far as keeping my shop floor running efficiently, I make sure I hire joiners that are enthusiastic about the work. I try to give them input into decisions we make so they feel they have a stake in our results, and care about the quality. If they care, they won't mind when you show them how to do it better (both speed and accuracy). I never take a stopwatch to them. If you spend any time on the shop floor, you can tell who's slacking off, and who doesn't care about the quality of their work. You don't need a number to tell you that. CB.


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Re: Estimating joinery time [Re: daiku] #18914 03/31/09 03:24 AM
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Kevin L Offline
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The art of estimating is not just the time it takes to cut a mortise and tenon. It is timber movement, efficiency, bathroom breaks etc. I have found that the more people working on a project the more man hours get billed to a project. It is not that any one person is not holding his weight. I think it's more starting and stopping to shuffle materials as work is completed. A one man shop will cut a frame with about one third less man hours.

Kevin

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