Hey everybody, thanks for the great info.

Has anyone ever used one of those boring tools that foresters carry around with them for selecting trees before felling? If you could find the amount of sapwood at the base do you think it would be proportional to the amount at the tip?


I posted this awhile ago from Virtuvius. What do you all think of this statement from a long time ago?

"In felling a tree we should cut into the trunk of it to the very heart, and then leave it standing so that the sap may drain out drop by drop throughout the whole of it. In this way the use-less liquid which is within will run out through the sapwood instead of having it die in a mass of decay, thus spoiling the quality of the timber. Then and not till then, the tree being drained dry and the sap no longer dripping, let it be felled and it will be in the highest state of usefulness".

Mo,

re your first and second questions.

No, I've not used an increment borer to select timber.

In hardwood it is likely the sapwood band will be consistent up the tree. Absolutely not the case in southern pine, where there many only be heartwood in the lower few feet.

As for the Vitruvius, it sounds theoretically reasonable, but not very practical.


Another thing I should mention is that many rules are very different for hardwood vs. softwood, at least in the South. If you are looking at a specific stand of trees right now it would be helpful to know a little about the forest -- height of canopy, stems per acre, nature of the terrain (upland, lowland, hilly, etc), makeup of the canopy (different mature species present), age of stand, as well as the goals of the landowner.

Also, it would be helpful to know about the frame you're trying to pick trees out for. Do you need 4x6-16' common rafters or 8x8-36' top plate or 8x12 floor girt, etc. What grade are you after.

It's kind of hard to generalize about a forest and a frame -- they're all so different. One thing I'll say is it's best to either design the frame around the available trees or pick the stand of trees to harvest out of based on the species, size, and grade of the needed timbers.

I have made several frames from my own trees or from the home owners
trees. In Maine white Pine is the tree of choice I have also used Red Oak
although it tops out before you ca get a stick longer than 24 ft. If they are your trees and your building your house or the house of the person who ones the trees use the best that is there what are you saving then for . as a rule you only get one stick out of each timber using smaller timber for 4x6 knees remember if you don't saw it like I do you want to make sure that the sawer knows how to box the heart . from an average pine or oaK log you will have 8 to 10 boards that are usable lumber pine dries quickly if it ever stop raining Oak boards need
to be finished in a kilm. if you want to know more let me know I have done a lot of this.

girdling makes sense if the trees are in your keeping from the get go. why not let it dry standing? if you're going to saw it this seems like a practical option. there are years in front of us, and more for the trees.

if i recall correctly phelps recommends dropping it and leaving the branches on to pull some of the sap up the tree. corrections...? i've done this, though i haven't taken moisture measurements. makes some sense though.

Bob- i wish i could command your self assurance about building and cutting down the best trees. maybe this is a matter of preparation! i have in mind a really broad-eaved wood/cheese/root cellar shed- one of the pictures in phelps' log building book actually. so maybe this is the beginning of the collection of timbers.

When someone asks me about cutting their own trees to make their project frame, I usually suggest that they start with the frame design.

When that's done we get a stock list of timbers needed to create that frame. The timber list show us the sizes of the timbers.
8x8x16' for example

From the timber stock list we then create a log list. A log list tells us the diameter of the log, as mentioned on the narrow end of the log, the top end of the log as it stood in the tree on the stump, inside the bark in inches. For example an 8x8 needs a log of 11 5/16" in diameter or larger by the length, such as 16'.
So my log list would say X number of logs 11 1/2" x 16' or larger.
That way a logger can measure the diameter inside the bark on the narrow end and see if it makes the wanted timber. Of course this is done after the tree is felled. If this current log isn't large enough for this targeted timber then it may make a timber of a smaller size. And he can check off a smaller log needed from the list. Then look for a larger tree to fell to make up for it.

It is very hard to estimate the diameter inside the bark of a log in a tree that is 16' or higher above the ground.

When we harvest trees and create logs from them for the frame we usually add an extra log or two of each size on the list to make sure we have enough stock on hand should one or two logs have some internal defect not seen until opened up. And with the extras we can then have plenty.

When we start milling the logs I like to start with the largest longest sticks first. That way we can get the hardest to produce off the list and work our way to the smaller easier ones.

If we have picked a log for making a 8x8x16 and we can't get an 8x8x16 out of it, because of some circumstance we didn't see, I would then look at my timber stock list and see if I can make it into some other timber on the list.

If the log had a crack in it from the felling or landed on a stump and had an internal break, it may not show up until it's milled. We could then cut it back to make a 8x8x12 or maybe a 6x6x16, like that.

There are ways to visually estimate the volume of timber in a standing tree. But this is something that the average person may not have the needed experience to do, easily.
Professional forester are usually the ones who do that.

There are tools used for doing such things, such as cruising sticks and diameter tapes as well as charts that state the volume per 16' length of the tree.

A diameter tape is used to measure the diameter of the tree at the correct elevation off the ground. This elevation is known as the "diameter at breast height" usually noted as dbh. With a dbh chart of values you can estimate the volume of lumber in a standing tree, once you decide how many 16' lengths are in that tree. This can be done by standing back from the tree and holding up a stick at arm's length that would equal 16' at the tree. I don't have a picture of someone doing this but I can try and find one.

I suppose that theoretically you could use this to determine log size but again it's very difficult to do.

As mentioned one has to weigh what they want to do with their timber stand.

Do they want to improve the stand for future generations? If so then when the do a harvest for their frame they may do a "timber stand improvement" or TSI cut. This means you usually remove the undesirable trees.

We were taught by our local county forester to remove the "four D's". Some of these trees are the dead, the deformed, the deceased, or the dominate. Some of these trees, from the first three "D's" may not be good enough for timber framing. But if you want an even height canopy you may want to remove the dominate trees. And these can be large over shadowing monsters who can have large trunks and yield some great lumber or timber.

Wow, what a long post......
I guess I'll stop now.....

Nice informative post Jim, thanks.

I understand to goal of finding the the timber inside the sap ring. But if you are looking at long stock say 36' and you need 14 of them. Are you going to look for sap free timber? The majority of the timber will be but what is the acceptable amount of sap wood allowable?

There are many old frames out there with sap wood in the timber. Truly, how big of an issue is the sap wood?

By having to use sap free timber one is not using the timber stand to its fullest potential. The forth D can add a lot of volume to your stand, you have improved
the stand and gained by using the thinings for some of your timber needs.

Tim

After we had removed the four "D's" we looked at improving the stand by removing tress so that there was a 4' space or ring around the crown of a "keeper" crop tree.

This would allow the sunlight to reach the forest floor and would help naturally generated new tree seeds grow.

A 4' ring of space at the crown means any tree whose branches were in this "keeper" tree's crown had to be removed. At ground level this meant we'd be removing a lot of wood. But when done and walking through this created forest, it was quite beautiful.

And we were taught that the remaining "keeper" trees would grow 10 faster as there was less competition for sunlight, and ground water.

Jim Rogers

Yes, Thank you Jim for a good post! No need to stop typing by the way. It is good to hear how things are done.

p.s. Tim, I think you might have started a new topic. Sapwood...where is it ok? Ive seen termites that love the stuff, build tubes around the heartwood, and go back at the sapwood on the other arris (old growth stuff). They were 10 X 10's at 45'! (Old Plantation home). Guess yall don't have to worry about those little guys up there, but down here.

Mo, no termites but I hear they are coming. There are a number of issues with using sapwood, mainly it rots quickly if exposed to the weather. It also grows mold if the conditions are right, a number of bugs will get into it if it is left with the bark on for long. I find it much more challenging to find timber that is sapwood free than dealing with the cons listed above. Don't get me wrong heartwood has its place, sills come to mind but if you are looking at a timber within the inner workings of a building I find it safe. Termites could have a persuading effect though.

Tim

Hey Mo,
I have no information, just a question. Do termites get into dry wood? In my area, I live in northern Nebraska we see a little termite damage around mudsills and floor joists that were set too low and occasionally at the bottoms of exterior studs. But I have not seen termite damage in wood that has been kept high and dry. If this is the case in your area couldn't you use a little sap wood in the beams and other interior applications?