I was looking for a way to get my guest house built with my friend's general contract license, and getting timbers graded was one of the process. Eventually due to family situation, it got held up. It seems that almost every plan of mine get held up due to family matter.

Anyway, I discussed with the guy who grades the timber and he told me that I could become a certificated timber grader by joining the organization/business that is recognized as inspecting agency.

And it came to my mind.. I was wondering if TG Guild members can grade the timber?? OR if not, I think it would be a good idea if TF Guild were to offer members a workshop to become certificated timber grader because it make sense for timber framers to know and identify whether the timber we are about to use on the house is #2 or #1 and then do a grade stamp on it as well as writing out the certification for filing purpose.

I strongly believe that this would be benefit of TF Guild members and organization to have the ability to do that.

Bruce Lindsay
Evergreen Specialties Ltd

brucelindsay@shaw.ca


This is the man to talk to. I suggest you contact him.

He does, in fact, teach a grading course through the guild.

Does Bruce's course actually yield a certificate which allows you to certify timber? Or is his course teaching how to grade a timber, with no certification?

I pretty sure it's the latter one Tim.

To maintain your grading certification, it cost a good chunk of money, you have to grade a lot of timber (there's a minimum), and you have to have regular inspections. It's quite a responsibility.

The Guild doesn't do any grading directly, just education on it. There is a TF company in Tennessee that has their own graders, but I don't know whether they would want to grade other people's wood. There's these guys for pine:
http://www.spib.org/lumberservices.shtml
and you could always contact these guys for hardwood:
http://www.slma.org/
Also, I think that the grade stamps for timbers are different than for boards--unfortunately most mills have stamps for board grading.

It was to my understanding that an organization, i.e. TF Guild, could become an official inspecting agency and any individual/entity could contact TF Guild directly for a grading job and fill out the form then TF Guild can send a certificated grader (based on nearest location) to the site for inspecting and grading.

I just emailed David of TP Inspections and await his reply on his answer what timberwrestler comment "To maintain your grading certification, it cost a good chunk of money, you have to grade a lot of timber (there's a minimum), and you have to have regular inspections. It's quite a responsibility." But you have to admit that if the TF company in Tennessee have their own graders, they can't be producing way too many timbers to meet the requirements?

It is just my opinion that I think it would be neat if TF Guild had their own Timber Grading division, and I think that major of the members would agree on this? It is worth looking into and decide whether or not it is feasible for the organization or not.

Suc I think would be less along the lines of the guild's scope, but perhaps more along the lines of the Buisiness Council. But I may be wrong.

I spoke quite about with my Lindsay a while back. I'll to dig through my emails and see just what it is he said. But if I remember right, what he offers is in the direction of getting certified. I doubt the course itself yields the certificate though, as I imagine there is some official body that handles that.

From Mr. Lindsay:

"Hi David:


Great Questions . But just like chewing raw coconut, it gets complicated.

The more you chew the more there is.

Under the ALS ( American Lumber Standards Committee ) there are regional Grading Authorities.

Like NELM , WWPA, WCLIB, Southern Pine, Timber Products etc . These are official agents of ALS and they employ certified graders as Lumber Inspectors. And these agents offer grading courses

1. The Regional grading agencies are the Authority that Can offer courses that will result in getting an Official Grading ticket to be a Lumber Grader in a Lumber Mill. So you just work For the sawmill. It takes about 3 months and $1,000. This is Just the Start of getting into a career in Lumber Grading. Even though you have a Grading Ticket does not mean you own a Grade Stamp .

2. Only a Sanctioned Sawmill, Remanufacturing Plant, or Official Lumber Inspector from the Grading Agency owns an official Mill Stamp can put a Grade Stamp on the piece of lumber.

3. Sawmills are subject to grade checks by the Lumber Inspectors 2 or 3 times a year. The inspector will come for a day and randomly

Re-grade a few piles of Grade Stamped lumber to see if they are up to snuff.

4. Does Bruce’s course allow you to be a Lumber Inspector or Lumber Grader at a mill. NO !

5. No. There is No Certification or Grading Ticket at the end of my course. Bruce’s courses simply make you more Literate with timber, the terminology, & the grades so you can have a pretty good idea if the stick of wood in front of you is # 2 and Not # 1 or Select Structural. Simply a general introduction to the subject. What characteristics are not permitted in a # 1 ( Holes and Rot) . We didn’t really get into some of the finer aspects like proportional size knots. We could do a one hour lecture on the 7 different types of knots. Just scratched the surface of the subject.

6. Bruce’s course helps you to NOT call up a supplier and unknowingly ask for a # 2 & Better with no knots and look like an idiot.

7. Read my article in the Timber Framing Journal, Sept, this year . It kind of

sums up the 1 ½ hour Grading Seminar.

?? Does this answer your question ? Why / Why not."

Hmm.. interesting..

The biggest problem with grading timber issue is that in State of North Carolina, all timbers must be inspected and graded prior to structural uses. Even with the engineered stamp plan, timbers still need to be graded and I have already contact TP Inspection Inc. and they said they can inspect timbers for $80 an hour.

Perhaps there has to be a way for TF Guild to petition that special permission for certain grade stamp should be an expectation when using a Timber Frame method?? I mean, it makes more sense to say that a #2 8x8 post is more safe to use than a #1 2x8 wall studs with 16" OC?? Such an exemption should be an expectation since some states such as Maine (If I am correct??) exempt large size log from being graded. If Maine exempt it then we should try to petition similar expectation with all other states? Then it would make sense to be at least familiar and know-how to identify which timber we are about to use is #2 or #1 prior to using it for structure?

One thing to keep in mind is that Structural Log Member is responsible for how logs get graded by log manufacturers. I don't see why TF Guild should start their own??

Also, if I am correct?? It is highly recommended that TF kits are cut while timbers are 'Green'?? And by 'Green', I assume that timbers contains more than 50% moisture in the timbers?? International Building Code requires that major of lumbers to have 19% or less moisture in lumbers prior to being grading and stamped.

So for this reason, TG Guild should petition to make a special exemption that we have different way of grading 'Green' timbers and categorizing them into #1, #2, etc prior to cutting kits and raising before the whole kits start to dry. Yes, we do need to prove that this method is safe and sound but I think (hopefully) TF Guild has proved it to be?

Just a thought??

First of all, the guild is an educational organization. It can assist you in learning. But I think it will have problems trying to qualify graders and have them "on staff".

I have often said I can cut a 2x4 with a 3" knot in it. And we all know that that 2x4 is going to fail.
The same could be said for an 8x8 with a 6" knot in it.
You have to know the grade limits and know how to apply them.

I have been to two grading seminars held by NeLMA. And one or two held at guild events. I did this to learn more about the grading process.

I have had the traveling grader(s) come to my sawmill yard and grade timbers for my customer before. However those timbers were salvage timbers and NeLMA has told us that they won't grade salvage timbers ever again (conference at Durham, NH some years ago).

In a room full of portable sawmill owners, some 60 of us there, the NeLMA grader/inspector told us that NeLMA would never give out a grade stamp to a portable sawmill. They (NeLMA) wants to know where the grade stamp is at all times, thus a permanent location. It costs $2500 a month dues to get into NeLMA and you have to be voted in by the members. The "A" in NeLMA is association and you have to belong in order to get a grade stamp.

Basically, because NeLMA likes to make unannounced drop in inspections to make sure you are doing the job correctly. If they find violations then they would/could shut you down. And or stop you from shipping out incorrectly graded lumber.

Ken:
If you need grade stamped lumber to fulfill the requirements of the building department then hire a traveling grader to come and grade your timbers. Pay the fee whatever it is and get the paperwork from them showing that they graded the timbers.

When the grader came here, he stamped the timbers that were here.
This was done by striking the timber with a hammer type tool that has the stamp carved into the head of the hammer so that the stamp could be read on the end of the timber. I was a little surprised by this method of stamping, as all these timbers that went into the timber frame barn being built by the customer had their ends modified with tenons and other joints. All the grade stamped ends were cut off, and can't be seen in the standing barn even today.

If you do have the traveling grader come, make sure you have enough timbers as extras encase he rejects one or two from your pile.

Expect him to want to look at every timber, all four sides and both ends. So you may need to have a fork lift available to move the timbers around and set them out in the yard for him to see.

Good luck with your project.

Jim Rogers