I am Andy. I am new to this site as of 10 minutes ago. I teach chemistry, work in the native flower industry, turn vases on a somewhat professional level, work as a fishing guide (cane rod aficionado), and lastly, am a timber frame junkie. Bed time stories are told by Jack Sobon in his 6 part PDFseries. I was due to be born in late October, 1875. I was 98 years late. I am 39 with no kids, 5 dogs (two english setters and three afghan hounds), and I like anything as long as it's hard. I also tend to ramble, which why most of you will get bored reading this and two of you might respond.

I am building my second timber frame. I inherited a pair of framing chisels, a 4" slick, a 1" corner chisel, and the most useless mallet every created from my fishing mentor when he went up to the big woods in the sky. In his honor, I build the nicest wood shed (10 x 20 three bent, two bay) this side of the Mississippi. I loved it. It was made of 4x4 red oak (small, but free), and has done its job VERY well. It had a half lapped and bladed scarf with a key. I notched the frame in my basement. I have since made nicer mallets.

As a prairie seed nut and lathe geek, I need some more space to clean seed and turn. I am am planning to build frame Mark II to get Alice, my lathe out of the house, so I can continue being married...happily that is. It will be an 18 x 24, three bent, two bay, with the same plan as before with a few changes. First and foremost, 8x8 white oak. I want to carry the 18' span, which I will do with 8x10s with 1" housing into the posts. I will brace everything with 4x6s also housed. The posts will be 14', so I can have a loft with a stub wall capable of holding my roughed out vessels from my lathe. The roof will be 3x7 white oak rafters, birdsmouthed in with enough overhang to make me happy. I have not yet decided on which scarf to use (suggestions). I will probably add on, and give Alice a platform with a wood floor and concrete pad underneath in her own room eventually...with lots of light.

So...to why I am here and my question:

I need a foundation. I am in Southern MN and we see frost. Plenty of it. The bid on an ICF form foundation (like my house) was $6500. It would have been 4' deep on a 24" footing, and that included a 4" concrete floor. It would have had a 6" stub wall I could have fastened the posts to a green treated plate. I can spend that, but I would like to be cheaper. Another option would be 6 large concrete pillars, with an 8" x 8" sill and a floating concrete floor. Of course I would love a wooden floor (bowl gouges take a beating on concrete). I plan to heat it all, and if I go with concrete I will run PEX underneath. I guess I am looking for a simple idea that is reasonably priced, will not cause my building to shift, and will get the job done with a nice solid floor I can have my lathe, band saw, table saw, hammer mill, and fanning mill on. Any ideas?

Secondly...the loft floor. I am planning on a dovetailed 4x6 centered to keep things in line and using 3x7s that will be butt cogged and pinned for the remainder of support. I may also thrown in dormer, but then I'd use bigger rafters.

The local Amish mill will let me build it on their ground on a pair of log skids set waist height, so I can notch a beam and roll it down the line and then continue. I will assemble the bents there and haul them here with horse (3 miles) to save time. I am hoping I can cut the frame on nights and weekends by the end of May. I will do most of this solo because my friends either A) like toys with engine and just don't get it, or B) have their own eclecticisms to tend to.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Warmest Regards;

Andrew James

Hi Andy, Floating, slab insulated well under and all around, and don't forget pex tubing tied to rebar grid.

Or rebel trench, drained well, with concrete beam on grade, Full timber foundation. I applied 3 inches of foam to mine, strapped with 1-1/2"x2" straps, installed pex and placed concrete into the bays. I will apply a narrow spruce floor over the top.

I wholeheartedly second Tim's recommendations. Alaskan slabs (aka FPSF) are prescriptive in the code now as well. It sounds like a cool project. Those ties are gonna be HEAVY.

Nice. Never heard of an Alaskan slab before. I shall look deeply into it.

Yes, the ties will be quite heavy. An 18' 8"x10" WO beam weighs about $700# green. Yikes. But alas, it was Newton who said, "Give me a big enough lever and I shall move the earth". He also believed in Alchemy and was in general nuts. I live square in an Amish sect. If I have the bents ready, the Amish will just show up and pop the structure up. I won't have to ask...they have amish radar of sorts. They'll also probably bring chickens for lunch. The site is wooded and I'll have a few trees to help me out, and I plan on a gin pole too. Of course they'd buy an air nailer and a compressor before they'd chisel a frame. And if they did chisel (one guy locally does), all scarfs would be half lapped on a post. My sentimental side cringes at the thought. "Functional" and "pretty" are synonyms in my somewhat twisted backwoods dictionary.

I'm currently trying to get enough housework done (read: turn a zillion vases from the burl pile out front) so that I can chisel and not feel guilty about neglecting the lathe or let pretty wood rot. Back to the salt mine....

I will see what I can dig up regarding the monolith.

Regards;

AJS

Speaking of Amish..
Went down to Heuvelton NY today to order some timber from the Amish.
Noah told me he would "write" me when my order was ready. Gave me a chuckle on the way home.
Haven't received a hand written letter since probably the 70's. I'm really looking forward to his.
Kinda cool that.

Surprising...some Amish here write, but any kid over 15, whose not yet become an official church member owns a cell phone. They charge them on their alternators they use for their engines that run the household PTO. Interesting set of rules: Diesel PTO = ok. Gas = not ok. Gas for engine that pumps water = ok. Gas for circular mill (buzz saw) for cutting firewood = ok. Gas for Chainsaw to cut firewood = not ok. Brown shoes, not ok....black ones = ok. I could go on and on. LED for headlamp to get firewood = ok....for buggies to be safe, not ok. ARGH. Then again, I suppose in ways, we "English" aren't a lot better.

Oh...and I checked into a Monolithic slab here in SE MN. You'd have thought I was asking to marry their son. They thought I was nuts. Gonna be hard to find someone to do it. But, in talking today with another fellow, I got a lead on someone who thinks that way.

Next question I suppose is if I should use a green treated base, or the same white oak. And how would I fasten the base to the slab? Really tall J-bolts? Very (read: VERY) careful placement of said bolts? And do I lap the base, or Scarf it? Suddenly the projects gets more complicated again.

Thanks.

White oak is rot resistant, so either that or PT. Or PT under something else. I'd use strap type anchors from Simpson. They're nailed to the forms before the pour at the post locations.

Black Locust is often the only species approved in lieu of pressure treated, and white oak is generally not placed in that category. Don't ask the reasons, that is just the way it is. Black Locust is the only non-treated wood approved here for direct contact with concrete. Personally, I tend to put 2X PT underneath any wood in order to satisfy the code. Often times the PT is anchored to the foundations as per code, even though the Plates will just sit on top of it. Silly, but it makes the inspector happy so that's how we do it.

We always say the only purpose for anchor bolts is that if a Tornado comes through, at least you will still have plates attached to the foundation...


As for the comment about the Amish,
Let me just say, a lot of times there are a great deal of specifics to the standards that have developped over the last 3 centuries, in reaction to the changing world around them. What you have to realize is that there has to be a line somewhere, and unless you understand in detail how that line was drawn it is going to seem arbitrary.

I shouldn't say this.... but this past summer I planted a couple locust trees at my house, grown from seed, most likely I won't see them used as sills but someone might.

I do bolt down heavy sill, just use regular J-bolts in the concrete, I use the long nuts for threaded rod to extend a bolt the the surface of the sill, simple layout same as you would do for the sills.

Kind of funny... I have often found myself trying to make sure I get a fasten into the pt sill to tie the whole building down. On full length boards they are connected to the sill and top plate. Glad I don't live in a tornado ally or have poisonous snakes in the woods.