(ok, ...so we got 2 cents to make four sense....and Derek gets richer by...what was that?...)
Thank for the compliments...still feelin' a bit blonde, though... :rolleyes:

ALL:
Happy holidays, no snow in the northeast.
Disclaimer: The following is a personal opinion and does not reflect the actual collective feelings of a rather eclectic every changing membershihp.
Joel:
Could you please address the resaon for a discalimer, as unfriendly as it may be.

Shorter is better, a sign in/sign off that can be forever hidden once you have hit the magic button might help.

AS in all things there is at least one solution to any perceived problem but it is unlikely that we might all offer the same solution.
Spell check does not prevent people from making mistakes.

re: membership
Sharing information freely often causes folks to realize that they do not need to pay for it and as a voluntary membership organization that only seeks to share information and further the sharing of that information we expect turnover in our membership. If we were a trade association our attittude might be different and membership would not likely be open to all.

In my opinion,
curtis

We asked the TFG attorney to write us a disclaimer after a messy incident in which a perfectly nice woman found the perfect timber framer via ATE. She did not take the time to ask for any references, and was roundly disappointed and financially penalized in this association, for which she blames the TFG.

I like disclaimers in general, though I can deplore their necessity at the same time. Disclaimers should remind us that we are, in fact, responsible for our own actions; contrary to what deep tides of contemporary culture would have us believe.

If several of you think this particular disclaimer is too harsh, or too long, or too much or too little of anything, I am happy to sponsor a revision committee, whose (single) result I will submit to the attorney for analysis.

If you are of the opinion that we don't need a disclaimer at all, I will have to disagree. It makes a much sense to me as insurance.

If you don't like seeing the disclaimer every time you connect to ATE, I would suggest that you go directly to the forum you are interested in, since the disclaimer appears only on the intro page.

If you think the disclaimer should only appear when people register, I must disagree. The innocent are able to read ATE forums without registering; registration is only required of folks who want to contribute.

I do think our time would be well spent in revisiting the title of these forums.

Joel
Not being an expert at anything....
Perhaps it is actually the title of forum that needs a new name. "Ask the Experts", to me implies the answers I get are the best available (which MAY be true). "Ask the Members" or "Ask the Forum" would leave me with a desire to verify or substantiate advice I get. I do concur with your assessment that the Guild needs to have a disclaimer but the one presented reads like it was written by a lawyer....OH yeah....you said it was.
Bob :p

THE PLANTIFF: Construction worker in Tulsa

THE DEFENDANT: Doctors

WHAT HAPPENED: He intentionally cut his hand off with a circular saw. When he was taken to the emergency room, he told doctors not to reattach the hand, saying that it was possessed. The man is now suing the doctors for not reattaching his hand, claiming that the doctors should have known he was psychotic.

THE VERDICT: Unknown

On a symbolic level:

the construction worker: people who give advice on this forum that think a disclaimer is bad.

the doctor: the open-minded reasonable others.

the hand: the disclaimer.

It is not the guild's fault for the disclaimer or the attorney for the legal jargon. It's the fault of the people who sue over their own ignorance, naivete, lack of principles or ethics, or just plain stupidity.

I don't like to read it more than once, so I just bypass the page with a bookmark.

Happy New Year. mo

Yay, Mo!
I agree completely, and was pondering a good way to express my opinion on all this, but you nailed it, thereby alleviating me of the pondering. Thanks!

Unfortunately, the need to protect the forum with a disclaimer is, I believe, a step that is necessary.

*Unfortunate that it's necessary, that is; not unfortunate that I believe that it's necessary.

(Great, now I'm succeeding in confusing myself as well as others!)

I have not posted questions or responses to posts on this forum for quite some time. I am going to be very open and honest here and what I say represents my feelings and opinions as a budding timberframer and sawyer.

The reason I have not posted is because of a lack of activity on the forum compared to some others and vauge or almost sarcastic replies to those who are searching for direction and answers from what they perceive to be "Experts" as the forums name implies.

The name must be changed! I suggest you call it "ask for an opinion" page. This would protect the participants and negate the need for a disclaimer.

I see the TFGuild as an entity which is being pulled in two opposing directions. The "Professional" members would like to limit "free" professional opinions and therefore give vague and relatively unhelpful answers as they would prefer to charge an engineering and consultation fee. This is both fair and equitable for them however this is a not for profit site and education is supposed to be the primary stated goal of the TF Guild. Not protectionism or drumming up business or "buy the book". I would propose the following solution(s).

I like the idea of a posting form/survey to help guide a novice in posting a question. It would guide and educate them in answering some of their own design questions and also provide the Guild with some valuable data. For instance, to a professional timberframer, being asked a question about rafter size, the first response is: I need to know span, load info, wood species, etc. This is not so intuitive to the beginner.

Remember also that non-members can post as well as members and non-members do not have access to all of the Guild resources so telling them to consult a certain area of the website may not be a good answer and will only send them out on the web searching for free answers elswhere and they will probably be misguided and eaten by the wolves. This website should be a safe haven and the end of the road site those seeking truths regarding timberframe issues.

A survey/posting form could also serve as a source of contact information for those who wish to provide or engage professional services. By checking a box in the posting form stating "I would like to be contacted regarding paid professional assistance" and entering info such as type of project, date of construction etc.

Historically Guilds revealed trade secrets to apprentices only after they proved themselves worthy though internship and on a needs to know basis. There was a hierarchy system that kept the flow of valuble information out of the hands of the novice and demanded that they attain a cetain level of knowledge, skill and poficiency before they were granted apprentice, journeyman, craftsman or mastercraftsman status.

I would like to propose that the TF Guild begin an online training course that would be available to all who pay the annual membership fee and it would contain reading and study with an online test which upon passing would culminate in the attendance of a workshop or a rendezvous where a master would evaluate their understanding and level of skill. Those who post would have their skill level posted along with their screen name. At the Guilds Annual Conference there would be an induction ceremony each year to confer titles to individuals who progress through the Guild.

This approach would:
1. Increase forum participation without fear of legal reprisal or humilitation
2. Enhance and encourage Guild membership
3. Serve to educate the public and expose them to timberframing
4. Build working relationships between professionals and novices
5. Promote the business of professional timberframers to those who are not seeking to do it themselves and simply need professional advice or consultation.

Sounds similar to the purpose statement of the Guild doesn't it?

I would not consider myself an expert or barely a novice but I am eager to learn and I am always sifting through the posts here to try and glean information relevant to my projects. I do plan to join the Guild but I currently do more posting on an alternate website as the participants are more active, less sarcastic and tend to be more open about expressing opinions, giving practical advice and helpful info. The Guild currently tends to be be less active and more philosophical and protectionist in post responses.

Crabtreecreek:
You should/could forward your post to the board of directors and ask them to forward it to the education committee for review. Not all directors and committee members read all these posts.

Your comment: "consult a certain area of the website may not be a good answer" sometimes doing that maybe the simplest, quickest, and only reply some of them get. And if the answer is there, why not?

I read a quote on the wall at a timber framing school that said: "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember.. I do and I understand."

If they do it themselves, that is find there own answers then, I feel, they will understand.

I personally haven't noticed the following: " vague or almost sarcastic replies to those who are searching for direction and answers from what they perceive to be "Experts" as the forums name implies."

I suppose that's a matter of interpretation of the reader. Possibly you could site a couple of examples to me privately....especially if they are my posts...

And if there are other forums where there are better answers and more activity about timber framing, please fill us in to where it is and we'll join you there.

Your comment: "A survey/posting form could also serve as a source of contact information for those who wish to provide or engage professional services. By checking a box in the posting form stating "I would like to be contacted regarding paid professional assistance" and entering info such as type of project, date of construction etc. " this is probably best handled at the Timber Framers Business council site, similar to their request form for finding a timber framing company.
Have you seen that?

You have to be careful in your post you have suggested two things. One is education and one is business or to help promote business. The guild side of things is education. The business side of things is usually handled by the business council.

Years ago, I suggested a section of this forum could be where companies could post times and locations of frame raisings so that people interested in seeing one and learning more about timber framing could go and watch and learn. I was told that's business and this forum site couldn't do that, as it is an educational site.

And I must admit that there is more recent postings here than there has been for sometime.

Jim Rogers

From a legal point of view I'd say: Yes this Forum definitely needs a disclaimer. There should be no doubt about it.

Even if I go in here to look for answers, from a professional or not, I cannot necessarly take that for granted. Especially since no one here can look at any particular situation in person. All we have is the info from the person seeking help. So if in doubt always find a local professional to look at the situation and evaluate. There is never just one solution to a problem nor does one solution that might apply in lets say Massachusetts necessarly apply for Florida or any other state.

I agree that the name should be changed. It implies too much about who is responding to the questions. This is a Timber Framing discussion board - no more. CB.