Ok, I admit I am a relative newbie to wood. My timber framing class (week long) is coming up in two weeks. The extent of my wood refinishing is sanding down a shovel handle and applying some minwax stain and some polyurethane. When I start with small timberframing projects after my class (I have reclaimed 100+ year old pine barn timbers and some 5 year old white oak beams), I know I will want to finish them with something. Even if a beam is rough sawn, I may want to keep the surface finish but apply something that will smooth the surface like the polyurethane does. What type of products should I experiment with? I also would probably like playing with color (stains) but then want a smooth type of finish over that. There was mention of Land Ark Oil in one post. What is that? Does it give a smooth finish or only color?
How would you finish these hewn beams? I would want to keep the hewn look but smooth over the wood to create a smooth splinterless feel to the finish.
hewn timbers
Oh I should also mention that I have been doing auto restoration and body and paint work for many years so I do have a level of skil in applying finishes. I do understand that many are done by hand on wood though. Any information or advice welcome.
Thanks, Brad

Each to their own, but I consider hand hewn beams and posts to be finished. Adding polly or paint may trap moisture. For a really smooth finish sharpen your pane iron razor sharp with a slight crown to the cutting edge and give it a go. Pushing the plane at a 45 deg. angle across the grain will leave a smooth scalloped surface to work with.
The biggest reason I don't like adding finishes is I just don't like doing it.

kfhines

Any finish that creates a coating that will seal the wood will seal in moisture. The wood will rot from the inside, it has been said.
Wood needs to breath.
Only apply poly to completely dry timbers, if ever...
If you want smooth timbers then don't work with hand hew stuff, work with planed stuff, or re-work hand hew by the method mentioned above.
Most timbers are just oiled, for color and preserving....
Just my opinions....

Good info to know. Thanks guys. Any other comments welcome.
I was at a store called Rockler last night just checking it out. I looked at the finishes. My retired uncle in another state works part time at a Rockler store. I was looking at the oil based stains and water based ones. I assume stains would let the wood breath too? Do you then oil after staining if you wanted a certain color/look?
I also noticed Shellac. What is Shellac used for?
Is tung oil the same type of product as the Land Ark oil?
Poly and other sealing finishes are applied to furniture all the time, and I don't think they rot from the inside? Isn't a timber frame like a big piece of furniture? I understand that you wouldn't want to seal a green timber. But I would think on a well seasoned timber...it would probably be ok, no? Maybe if you sealed it on three sides or left some area exposed for moisture to leave or enter? I'm thinking about kids getting splinters if it's not smooth. I appreciate any knowledge, experience or opinions you may have for me.

Todays flavor was gray oil based porch floor paint with a floor sander

Jim is right, film forming finishes can make a composting bag for green timbers, Sikkens is particular about being under 19% for that reason. I've seen it and poly come off green timbers in sheets, the vaporizing moisture blew it right off.

Shellac would qualify as film forming. Sanding, not finish build, is how to smooth wood. An Osborne brush does a pretty good job of smoothing hewn or rough sawn wood without removing the character. It is a cup type brush like a wire cup with abrasive embedded nylon bristles. I used one to clean up an old log cabin and was quite pleased with the results.

Land Ark is pine rosin and other "natural" resins and oils that make a breathable finish that is water repellant. What you are shooting for normally in large timbers with unknown moisture inside is a finish that will repel water droplets but will allow water vapor to escape. In log construction where the timber is exposed, bulk water can often enter through a check. It takes alot of "breathability" to let that amount of vapor back out before it raises the moisture content of the wood into the danger zone. Any of their finishes should do a good job on a timberframe also.

If you know a timber is dry and will stay that way, your old barn beams in an enclosed structure, then there is reason to use a tough film forming finish. Mrs powderpost beetle can't bite through the finish to uncap cells to poke her ovipositor in.

I tried linseed oil, and boiled linseed oil. The idea of using a natural (or somewhat natural product in the case of boiled linseed oil) appealed to me. Unfortunately, both seemed to leave us with timbers that always feel a little oily to the touch, even though it may not be putting any oil on your hands. Worst part though is that it seems virtually impossible to wipe greasy/grimy fingerprints off of timbers that have been treated with linseed oil. We are in the process of sanding the linseed oil off of most of our timbers and applying polyurethane. (Following the lead of a friend who treated his timberframe with nothing but polyurethane, after the frame was raised and dried in) No small task, but the difference is like night and day... in terms of appearance, feel, and clean-ability.

I had planned to wait about 6 years and simply go over top of the linseed oil with poly, but our timbers were just too dirty for us to move in and follow through with that plan. Our timbers measured about 21% with a moisture meter before we started the conversion to polyurethane. Meter was the type w/o pins/probes - I assume it was measuring only the first inch or two of wood. Most of the timbers were sawed about 2 years ago and have been kept dry since then. Of course, now that the frame is "dried in", most timbers have 1 or 2 faces that are unseen/unfinished... as well as multiple checks, so it would seem to me that any remaining moisture will be able to escape. The loss in effective surface area possibly offset by inevitably "dry" heat the first winter we move in. (this winter!?)

Maybe I'm crazy? Anyone LIVING in a raw-wood timberframe, or oil treated timberframe who is able to speak for the "cleanability" of these types of finishes?

-Thomas

Great discussion. Exactly what I was looking for. Hope it continues.

Did not cut the oil with turp. Did not apply it hot. Have however dipped my bee hive boxes in boiling paraffin (sounds almost like french fries when they go in)... the hives are still in good shape 4 years later.

Good point about oily rags. I hung around our house site late one evening just relaxing and witnessed a smoking linseed oil rag. It might have gone into flames had I not been there to carry it outside - it was black inside and hot enough to burn my hand. Rag fires are for real. Now we take every rag outside and lay it out flat on the dirt or a rock. When I was a kid I watched my neighbor's house burn - oily rag was thrown in the trash can. Recently, a local newly built log cabin caught on fire... they were in the "finishing stages." Hmmm, I suspect oily rags there as well. We take oily rags very seriously.

question still stands... anyone living in a house with raw or oiled timbers? what happens when you touch them with a greasy hand? can the timbers be cleaned? (mine could not, short of sanding)

-Thomas

Around here RLO ends up black usually, BLO fares a little better. You can kick it a little harder with japan dryer, that's basically more of the metals and whatever nasties they use to "boil" it.
I kinda like danish oil with Waterlox over it, which is really just hand rubbed cut varnish. Easy to repair, poly is a bit tougher and tougher to repair.

I've had close calls with rags too, homeowners are the most casual. I've had to be pretty blunt with our current clients a couple of times when they have "helped" over the weekend and left rags inside. We typically take em out and torch them at the end of the day just to be done with the potential.

Has anyone used Livos? It's a linseed oil based product made in Germany.

With any oil-based finish, do you coat all 4 sides of everything? (Joinery, post bottoms and tops, surfaces covered by paneling or facing into wall cavities, etc.)

I must admit I'm having trouble following the discussion when acronyms are used that I don't know, as well as some other statements like
"You can kick it a little harder with japan dryer, that's basically more of the metals and whatever nasties they use to "boil" it."
If it's not too much trouble to be a little more explicit for newbies trying to follow along...thanks.

RLO=Raw linseed oil and BLO=Boiled linseed oil, maybe?

Yup, sorry, I normally try to 'introduce" something before I start abbreviating. I'm no chemist so take this for what its worth. "Kicking" a resin is usually slang for catalyzing it. In linseed oil, well, its never really been boiled. It has had metal salts and other chemicals added to help it polymerize, japan dryer is more of those chemicals. As I waited impatiently for a poly called "last and last" to dry on our floors in humid weather, I finally called a chemist at the plant and quizzed him. "Everything dries...eventually" was his response. We took 5 gallon deck showers for almost a month, we called it "wait and wait" .

One thing I think I've noticed and others have made the same observation, a stain or breathable finish on green timbers seems to reduce checking. I think it moderates the surface drying, slowing it somewhat and letting the core keep up better.

Ok, thanks guys. Derek, that leads right into another question. You mentioned wax on the end grain. Do you wax or somehow tread the end grains of all timbers before raising?
Also, Is there anything you do to deter wood eating bugs when you raise a frame?

I think that's the recipe woodturners use to "spalt" wood You won't get hot enough to kill, just rot. You'll need 130*+F at the core for some hours to kill. The wood is a pretty fair insulator and has some mass, It'll end up being about the average of the daytime/nightime temps.

Brad, as I learned about a month ago on the forum when I asked, Anchorseal is what is used to seal the end of the timbers, as well as some recently cut joints, to reduce the checking. Dries quickly but puts a waxey yellow finish on the timbers, so probably need to be careful in applying it. This is typically applied right after the timbers or joints are cut.

DKR, I am familiar with Anchorseal. I bought some wood from a sawer this last winter and he explained it's use. I agree on any green wood you'd want to seal the end grain. To be very specific, I was wondering if there was any benefit to using such a product or other sealing means on posts and wood low to the ground, whether the wood is green or seasoned and dry? Does it deter insects from chewing on the post bottoms or reduce rot? Is it common practice to seal the ends for any reason other than when using green wood?
As some may have read, I am planning to build a timber frame in the next few years (even though I'm a newbie). I am learning and am a craftsman of many skills. I've got my timber framing class next week. I've completed many long and difficult projects in other fields and have the tenacity to complete them. I am currently planning a timber frame built over a concrete slab - no basement, but perhaps a small root cellar. My questions therefore stem from this frame standing on concrete and what type of trouble I could have from insects coming in, and keeping moisture out. In our area we actually don't have too much problems from termites. Other wood eating insects I'm not sure(wood eating ants?). I want to do things right to protect my work as best I can from the planning stages. I expect to get a lot of good info and ideas from my timberframing class next week and afterwards my planning and designing should start to move forward.
With regards to finishes, I'm sure I'll hear some conversation about it next week. I'll probably go and buy some of the products and test them out for myself - tung oil, land ark oil, stains, etc. When I stopped at the Rockler store the other day, they had a sample kit for various stains, which will be perfect for me to try out.
Much thanks,
Brad

bb:

Anchorseal does 3 useful things that I know of - But we use it primarily for the reason you state - to keep green timber from drying too fast.

The second thing is that it softens wood, especially end grain, making it easier to work. For example, smoothing off the bottom of a post with a slick, or widening the end of a mortise with a chisel. We do that intentionally once in a while, especially on reclaimed timbers, which are really hard and brittle. But usually, it's on a surface that we sealed anyway, for reason #1.

The third thing is that joinery that's been sealed (for reason #1) slides together really nice! Like greasing the skids. This is really just a happy side effect - we wouldn't do it just for that reason - we do it for reason #1.

I'm probably the last person on this forum to try to answer this, as I have just slightly more experience than you, having completed an apprenticeship just last summer with the aim of someday building my own timberframe -- just like you. The only input I have is that during my apprenticeship we raised a barn/apartment frame on a concrete slab. Each of the posts was set on a steel post anchor, but nothing else was done.

Good thread -- Speaking as a member of the finish of the week club -- I just finished a doug. fir frame with Watco danish oil. Looks great, was easy to clean up after the raising with a little sanding / re-oiling and economical at $30/gal. I used Livos (German all natural oil finish) on a frame two years ago and would give it high marks on the fresh citrus smell, low marks on the $100 /gal price. Next frame we're talking about either Tried and True danish linseed oil - made in Ithaca, NY or a Sutherland Wells botanical finish -- which is a Vermont made Livos type finish using tung oil and a citrus based solvent. Anybody else willing to share their secret recipe ?

I like the look of sanding rough sawn to get those semi-ugly saw marks out of the timber as opposed to hand hewn timbers, I think are best left just axed or perhaps use a slick,plane or adze to take out some rough spots,but otherwise those lovely axe marks I think are my favorite "finish". I say forget the oils and finishes, just more money and time spent with perhaps inferior results. Look to the old barns and see their unfinished beautiful timbers that breathed and dried naturally and most still performing their structural duties quite well.. Don P , I am curious what an Osborne brush is? Happen to have a pic? tb

Hmmm, my wife just finished another room today with polyurethane. It looks awesome and the timbers are glass smooth. I measured the 10x10 posts and they are consistently 9.75 x 9.75. The 3x8 braces measure 7.5" in the 8" dimension... if that gives you some idea of the moisture content. The checks in the timbers are deep and wide and probably have almost as much surface area for moisture to escape as did the unfinished timbers before they checked. We're wagering our house that the timbers won't rot from the inside.

FWIW, I think unfinished timbers and oiled timbers look great too... I love the unfinished timbers in my barns. Especially the ones where the cattle rub them smooth. I just can not, for the life of me, figure out how to keep them clean in my house (the unfinished timbers - not the cattle!).

-Thomas

Well, I looked for my osborn brush in the barn. It's in a real safe place, somewhere. Mine is an 80 grit, 4".
http://www.osborn.com/XTab.aspx?cat=ATB+Cup+Brush&grp=242TT04

I had a friend make a threaded insert and weld it in, then chucked it up in the right angle drill. That's slower than optimum but works, too fast can burn.

I've used these on rugged hewing but they can carve and distort fast
http://www.osborn.com/XTab.aspx?cat=Abrasives&grp=462TT01

This is the osborn and no finish


This is with an 80 grit flapwheel and water based poly.

The third log up is the old plate. The squirrely smaller logs were from an older building and added as basically framing to be furred and plastered over in an 1865 pop top addition. All the logs shown in both shots were very funky, they are much more "toucheable" now.

We're about to raise our frame next week. In preparation we are staining the T&G panelling with a Minwax water-based whitewash/pickling stain. I had bought some Livos intending to use that on the timber frame itself. However, I'm now thinking that the clear finished timbers won't look too great against the whitewashed panelling. It all needs to be the same shade, or have more of a contrast.

Problem: I'm reluctant to use the Minwax on the frame. I'd like an oil product that penetrates more. What about adding some white oil-based paint to the Livos and using that for a whitewash effect? Would it need to be a linseed oil based paint to mix with the Livos? (if so, any recommendations?) Or would an alkyd work? Or could I just apply the Livos and do an oil whitewash later?

A shipwright friend is putting together a house frame, sills and floor all very green alaska yellow cedar. He's putting his traditional boat application on all endgrain and worked edges to keep the checking down. His recipe:

Boat Sauce:
Old varnish, the older and thicker, the better
turps
linseed oil
pine tar
driers optional

The aim is to get as much pinetar in the mix as will paint on easily. Easy on the linseed. It's a feel thing, but one I'd guess anyone could figure out fairly quick.

And it smells good!

Zach