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Considering using itinerants #12980 10/02/07 03:06 PM
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brad_bb Offline OP
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I will be an owner/builder. I will be my own GC. I have been thinking that I may need to hire one or two itinerants to help with the two frames I'll be cutting, one for a raising next fall, and one to be raised the following summer. I had wondered how the heck insurance would be handled and how much liability there is? Additionally, how do people typically select itinerants? Do they have portfolios and references that they send? Living conditions would be in spare rooms in the house for the first frame, and in a loft apartment in the first frame for the cutting of the second frame.

Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: brad_bb] #12981 10/02/07 07:54 PM
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Pegs 1 Offline
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I think it depends on the state you live in.....In Minnesota those guys would be considered employees and we would have to carry a work comp policy on them....It becomes really important should one of them gets seriously hurt...then the lawyers will decide what you SHOULD have done. It doesn't matter what the guy that got hurt thinks.....Unless he says he fell off his OWN porch you will probably be liable.


Mike and Karl
Timber Frame Builders, LLC
Up North Minnesota
http://www.timberframe.bz
Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: Pegs 1] #12984 10/02/07 09:34 PM
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Gabel Offline
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Brad,

I think it helps to think of itinerant timber framing contractors the same way you will think about any of your other sub-contractors on the projects. Make sure they carry a general liability policy (all legitimate contractors do). In Georgia and a lot of other states, sole proprietors can not get a workers comp policy. Definitely check with your lawyer about your state's requirements and your exposure as an owner builder, bearing in mind you will face the same thing with roofers, plumbers, drywallers, painters, graders, or any other subs you hire.

As far as employee vs sub-contractor, I have always hired itinerants as subs, and when working as an itinerant I was always hired as a sub. I would think that would be the case here -- owner hires a timber framing contractor to provide expertise, tooling, and labor on their project.

As far as how to choose one -- it should be the same as hiring anybody. References, portfolio , and trust. I would not look for a bargain -- most legitimate, fully tooled, fully insured, skilled, personable itinerants I know charge in the same ballpark and earn their money.

Each guy also has different preferences/requirements relating to lodging, travel costs, per diem expenses, etc. And not all of them work for owner builders.

good luck,

gabel

Pegs,
I am curious. Why is it illegal to sub out work? If a sub we hire doesn't carry workers comp, our policy covers them and we pay for the privilege, but they are still sub-contractors.


Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: Gabel] #12987 10/03/07 04:03 PM
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brad_bb Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Gabel

As far as employee vs sub-contractor, I have always hired itinerants as subs, and when working as an itinerant I was always hired as a sub. I would think that would be the case here -- owner hires a timber framing contractor to provide expertise, tooling, and labor on their project.

Yes that is what I would like to do. How does their living in a house on the property affect liability? What kind of insurance do I need as the GC/owner builder for subs on site, and for subs living in the house? Of course I will end up talking to a good lawyer before beginning, to make sure I am properly covered, but any knowledge now is helpful homework before I start paying a lawyer.

Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: brad_bb] #12990 10/03/07 07:28 PM
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Gabel

Its not illegal to sub out work...The state claims its illegal to call someone a subcontractor when they really aren't....

Microsoft got hammered a while back for the same thing....They were calling the people temps but the attorney proved they were employees....

Thats how this stuff gets screwed up ....its the attorneys


Mike and Karl
Timber Frame Builders, LLC
Up North Minnesota
http://www.timberframe.bz
Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: Pegs 1] #13004 10/04/07 07:10 PM
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DKR Offline
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Us attorneys were merely protecting the rights of those employees to get the benefits Microsoft promised to provide to its employees. smile Microsoft tried to classify those workers as independent contractors so as to avoid having to pay for their benefits, even though these employees sat in cubicles beside other employees doing almost the same job.

IMHO, the lesson to take from Microsoft, one of the biggest corporations in the US, is that if they can screw it up, an Owner Builder can screw it up and be liable. Pegs is right, if someone gets hurt you need (1) insurance (including WC), and (2) a contract. In that contract, you can require the sub to carry insurance, add you as an additional insured, and give you a copy of the policy binder. This is especially true with WC. WC judges, laws, etc. take a very broad view of who is an "employee" and often sweep in folks the IRS and others would classify as "independent contractors." If you hire an Itinerant who can't get workers comp because he is self-employed, I suggest you buy it yourself. If the Itinerant gets hurt (as y'all know these are heavy timbers and gnarley tools) and you don't have WC, a lawyer is going to sue you and get your new house. If you've got WC, your liability for the Itinerant's injuries will be covered by the WC, and you don't have to worry about legal fees, potential liabiilty, etc. Well worth it.

Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: DKR] #13006 10/05/07 12:24 PM
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Mark Davidson Offline
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what I was told here in Ontario is that as long as someone is working outside of your "shop"(on site is fine) and using thier own tools, then they can be considered a sub.

Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: Mark Davidson] #13007 10/05/07 03:00 PM
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brad_bb Offline OP
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Well that's not good for me. I currently have a workshop on our farm and I was considering having them at the end of the winter, which means working in a my heated shop(40X50 pole barn).
Who has done this, gotten the correct insurance, and what will it cost me? It's sounding expensive.
In trying to understand the logic here, if you are an owner/GC, and the cubcontracted plumber is working in your house, then is he considered an employee?
Who should I start with to ask about the kind of insurance I need around here - attorney?

Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: brad_bb] #13011 10/05/07 09:39 PM
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Mark Davidson Offline
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WC for employees is not that high here, I think less than 10% of wages.

Re: Considering using itinerants [Re: brad_bb] #13015 10/06/07 04:08 AM
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Tom Cundiff Offline
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As a self employed itinerant based in Illinois I have been told by my insurance agent that I can buy Workmans Comp Insurance, but it is very expensive and because of the laws in Illinois I can not file a claim because I'm self employed. I am usually covered by whoever hires me by their workmans comp when I work in their shop.
In order to be considered a sub contractor and not an employee, I do however carry a 2 million dollar liability insurance policy, provide all my own tools, I must work for more than one contractor or business in any given year and I don't get paid overtime. I also do not qualify for unemployment insurance.
My advice would be to talk to your insurance agent, find one who knows about small business insurance. I use Country Mutual Insurance based in Bloomington IL.

Tom


Not all who wander are lost.
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