Hi Ken, the print of the French marking system was that timberwrestler, Brad's. Maybe he will share that source.

I did see some German marking system in Timber Framing. I am happy to continue to type under this thread, snap lines, for this is somewhat still on a laylout topic. Or does this need a new start? I have always used 2" and 1-1/2" chisel marks North and South. With the bents labled 1-the # of bents, using the modified Roman numberals specificaly #4 as IIII not IV. I see the French system is like that as well but they also put marks within the inverted V. I scribble with lumber crayon as well during the inital lay out, blue-North and red-South. On some of the old frames I have seen they used red crayons and the penmanship was very neet, unlike my messy scribbles, I bet they practiced in school more than I. The chisel marks are the last thing I do to say I am done with these sticks and I feel they are more permanant. Tim

Hi Tim,

The whole subject of marking finished timbers is one that could form the subject of a research dissertation. Please keep in mind that marks can also act as timelines i.e. it is both possible and easy to mark a timber with a race knife whilst it is still green but not when dry and hard. So when dry i.e. as when timbers are reused then marks are more likely to be made using a chisel and mallet so it can become easier to identify what is and what is not contemporary with the original build of a frame.

I recently came across a 2001 "Libri Rari" reprint book of "Duetsche Holzbaukunst" by Carl Schaffer (ISBN 3-88746-432-X) originally published in 1939 which explains the numbering system for multi platform fachwerk frames i.e. where numbering elements regarding height, position and aspect within a frame are incorprated into the numbering system.

Regards

Ken Hume

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, a dissertation does sound lengthy. This is all great stuff. I will continue to keep a open mind and a watchfull eye for such subtle details. I have not used a race knife, I wonder how dry a timber has to be before it is to difficult to mark with a race knife? I am seeing older frames with chisel marks and they are original markings. I see alot of 1" and 2" chisel marks. These systems are very simple as are the frames. Most of the boarding has a counting system marked via race knife, from the milling operation.

I am continuing to read on my local history and life here is the later 1700's and early 1800's was a difficulte existance. This area was not much for agriculture, mostly timber and fishing, even hay was imported, in some locations, for the working cattle. So, great barns are few. The sea captains had great houses.

As a side, what is the beginning date of balloon framing? Tim

Tim:
The machinist who was going to quote me for the slider has just backed out.
I'll have to find another machine shop who would want to do this work.
I'll let you know when I find a local shop.... and get a price.

Jim Rogers

hi everyone, timberwrestler is right about the O as the waste symbol with the french standard. You can opt to put the depth of the waste in the middle of the "O" is needed or desired.

As far as his source for the markings I would presume you could find that and a wealth of other information in the French encyclopedia of Carpentry. I can find the actual name out it french if anyone would like to know (I did not want to misspell). However it is probably about 10 volumes and is both rare and expensive. I have looked through it with appreciation at the time required for the information (a little befuddled too). It would be worth the purchase if one knew French, eventhough the illustrations are in builders language. I believe that the information for it was most probably compiled starting with the monks of the medieval ages. Passed on, so some standards have been set.

Here are the two most common ones I use when drafting before lay-out.



The gutterline is the level plane at the lowest working point of a rafter. The centerline symbol is frequently used in timber lay-out.

Very interesting tool Jim. It executed well, it may be worth having certainly. The trouble is often finding a square that is actually square. I have two Japanese squares from Lee Valley which seem pretty good. It sounds like you could make two brackets, one that bolts the two squares together, and one that holds a combination rule to a square. This would allow the TF'R to use his their existing squares and combination rule. That would be a good thing. You know, I have over half a dozen prototype parts/machining jobs that I need done, but don't know any machinist to give the jobs to. Some don't want small jobs, but mine add up to a decent amount and they could use it as filler work - If I could find someone up to snuff. That's the hard part.
Do you know how it(the bearing face measurement) would have been done say 150 years ago?

square rule does not have centered braces....traditionally... think about it.

All rules have exceptions....traditionally.....I thought about it.

I have seen pictures where one timber framer was holding one square to the outside of the timber, another timber framer holding the other square tongue to tongue and using a combination square to check the mortise/housing.
I wanted to be able to do it alone, and not need the extra help....

I do see this tool as being something that we could use for measuring other things and used in other places....

I will be showing a local machine shop the drawings today, to see if they will give me a price....

Tim:
I talked to one old time machinist today and he said he wasn't doing any machine work any more. He was too busy cleaning up his yard to even play with his train models..... wow..... to bad...

So, I was traveling to get some parts for my dump truck and stopped by a regular machine shop, I found in the yellow pages, and showed him the tool.
I've just emailed him the drawings and he said he'd be able to give me a price within a few days.

We'll see.....