Let's see. You posted at noon yesterday, a saturday, and then at 5am this morning you get frustrated and leave. So you basically gave us half a saturday (during march madness, no less) to reply to your post. This board is not ARWW -- it averages maybe 4-5 posts a day. Lots of newbies get lots of expert advice here, from knowlegeable folks who are generous with their time. Settle down, and try again (without the attidtude). We are a freindly bunch if given a chance. CB.

Welcome woodbutcher!
I am a new member of this forum and have been helped (most times) with my posts. I have a woodlot and woodmizer mill and have joined the TFG as a member to learn and experience timberframing. Gotta a long way to go. However if your experience here is not what you want there is another forum which helps newbies like me and this post shows a list of tools, prepared by Jim(who is a great contributor on this forum also).
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,6403.0.html
I hope this helps
Cheers
alpmeadow

Welcome

i do think you jumped the gun a little. The 36 views may not have even been registered members!! Anyway some say all you need is a mallet and a chisel. Others like to move things along at a more reasonable pace and for that.... Chain mortiser and a larger circular saw are important.. other than that you probably have the rest of the tools nessicary.... framing square, exacto knife.

My favorite book is "A Timber Framer's Workbook" by Steve Chappell

Use the search tool on the forum and you will find a ton of info!!

good luck,
Carlos

Hi there woodbutcher, if you're still there that is...
a good tool on the forums is the search engines we have. One is at the top of this page. try searching tools, books or whatever you're interested in, you may find some answers there, as there are many old posts to read through. General questions on books and tools often come up, so everybody doesn't jump in to answer one more....
Another search engine is located here.

I am not sure where to start.

I just picked up the guilds green book Timber Frame Joinery and Design volume 2. I particularly liked Sobons tips on short cuts and the bit on sap wood. That is a book. And here is a tool. Stanley's Sharp saw, I call it a shark saw because of the picture on the cover. I will even add a tip too, find one with 8 or 9 TPI. I am not sure why the stores stock the fine ones, I am always grumbling over that. Or a even better saw is the Docking saw, they can't be found new, you need to keep your eyes open as they are elusive but well worth it. Once you have found that saw learn how to sharpen it yourself, don't risk sending it out, and you will learn more by doing it yourself. Where did the green letters come from? Tim

You live in the neck of the woods where there are a ton of timber frame companies. You will learn a ton if you sign up for a week-long introductory class. They're going to tell you to bring a 1.5 barr chisel, a mallet, squares, maybe calipers, and pencils. Then after you come home, you'll probably want a 2" chisel, a nice hand saw, and a couple of good planes. You can do a lot of this work without power tools, for example you can use a boring machine to cut the mortices. However, most starting out today buy circular saws, sanders, big drills, planers, etc. Then you'll need straps and rigging to raise your frames. And it's more than just tools. If you are selling these frames to put up most places, your timbers have to be stamped by a grader, and you'll need an engineer stamp for your plans. Sobon and Benson books are where most people start these days. Do an Amazon search. They aren't hard to find.

I don't check the boards much on Friday and Saturday due to the low activity. Every body is either getting ready for the wekeend or out doing work already and too tired to check the board on Sat night typically. Makes sense. All I can say is - Wow! I guess he's gone already, so I don't have to welcome him or address his question. Someone with so little patience probably doesn't have the patience for timberframing, eh?

I agree Carlos, the spiders can really rack up the views counts.

The WoodButcher, there are many possible reasons why you did not get an immediate welcome, not worth going into at this point, but don't blame everyone here. This is a great group of people who are very happy sharing any knowledge they have with anybody.

I agree that making timber frame kits for the DIYers is a good idea, something I have been working on for a while now. Why don't you stop back and try again?


Dave

For a first book, I suggest Jack Sobon's "Build a Classic Timber Frame House" for someone that wants to learn to layout and cut joinery. Tedd Benson's "The Timber Frame Home" for someone more interested in design and systems issues. And of course, the DVD with all the back issues of Timber Framing magazine for everyone! Welcome, Woodbutcher (if you're back).

not quite sure of what your plan is for the sign, but if you have a horizontal piece... I wouldn't put the mortises right through as you are just giving water access to more end grain.

Carlos

I'm confused about the design to. Is your sign kinda sorta going to look like a real estate sign. An upside down L with a sign hanging from it?

That's what it sounds like to me. I would use rot resistant wood. With a Dutch theme, use a 24" through tenon with a wedge on the out side, and a peg or two. A big tenon like that should be simple on your mill. Stick in a naturaly curved brace for some support of that slab of Oak. The books Will mentioned will be of great help in understanding. Is that Yellow pine? Tim

How well does SYP hold up to the weather? Does SYP have much of a sap ring? If it does, cut all of the sapwood off your stock. Tim

Are there going to be two posts, with a beam between them from which the sign will hang? Or is there only going to be one post with a beam from which the sign hangs? I had tought the latter, but if that's it, then I don't understand why you've cut two mortices.

It's like a hammer beam. Lower mortise is for the brace, upper mortice is for the hammer beam. The sign hangs off the end of the hammer beam. The hammer beam has a tenon that goes in the post, and a mortice for the other end of the brace.
Not sure what is meant my using a mill to cut tennons? I would use a circ saw to score cut the shoulders and knock the chunk out with a chisel, then par the tenon and shoulder.

By the way, I think that generally a 2x6x4 tennon in an 8x8 is ok.

I would have put a tenon on the end of the post and the mortise in the "top plate". The way you are doing it the joint is in tension and relying on the pegs.

just my 2 cents

With a long sawmilled through tenon you may not even need the brace, but put one in for looks. Here is another term "reference face", When sawing the tenon put the ref. face down than make the cuts. Saw the shoulders first with the hand/skill saw. Then you won't have to back the blade out and risk pulling it off the wheels. In short the ref. face is the side you bace your lay out off. Tim

Woodbutcher:
Here is a drawing showing some terms or labels:

I've never used a mill so I just pictured it like using a sledgehammer for a fly swatter. Maybe not, perhaps it's more like the bandsaw method in the "Braces" post.
Carlos, it's only hanging out there probably 4 feet or so, I don't think the pegs or tenon are in any danger of failure. The brace will be supporting most of the verticle. Also using the mortice and tenon would allow him to continue the post up for a finial or other embellishment. Plus I think it would look better.That's the way I would do a mailbox post too(and will in the future now that I know how to make a proper post with TF methods).
You are right in that it would be like a tie beam if you were actually building a hammer beam bent. So my analogy was a little misleading.
Brad

Use a shaving horse and a draw knife and make your own, faster than a lath.....



Jim Rogers

tenons are usually 2inches with no pegging, 3-4in for a 1" peg with no tension, and 5 or more inches for pegs in tension.

Oak is the most common material for pegs as it tends to have the highest shear strength against the grain. You can also buy pegs. I haven't bought any yet, but I found www.Pegs.us on the web. It looks like they are really set up to make pegs. I guess the question is, do you want to start making your frame, or make pegs for awhile.

It is a shaving horse with a peg in the clamp.
I sent you an email about it.

Jim Rogers

PS: a quote from that email:
this is what you need to make in order to produce your own pegs.
We do this all the time.
In fact one of the girls at the high school where I teach timber framing, at the after school program, are now making pegs at under 5 minutes each peg.....

Jim. Where do you find a shaving horse? or do you make your own? I prefer the riven pegs off the horse compared to lathed pegs, just the same as an axed timber over a sawn timber , as I think it allows the wood to have a say in its new shape. Welcome Woodbutcher, I believe black locust is also a great wood for pegs. tb

Rain changed over to snow, so a short day. timber brained, a shaving horse is easy to make, an hour and you can be shaving pegs. I have a simple design via Bill Copperthwaite, it's based on simple living. The idea is any one can make this machine and move on to the item at hand, in this case pegs. This horse has no legs, you just set it anywhere, a chair, pony, chopping block etc.. It's light and easily moved, so it can be taken to the work site. It is friendly to young and old.

The problem is a picture is worth a thousand words and as everyone knows I don't do pictures. So I am going to try something else. We'll see if it works. Tim

Due to copy right laws I can't post any pictures of the plans of my shaving horse, because I got them out of a book.

But I can email them to you.

There are several ways to make them but the one I have you sit on and push on the pedal to clamp the peg stock between the clamp jaw called the dumb head and the ramp.

It is very easy to clamp and un-clamp and we bore a test hole through the seat to test each peg through.

You just keep shaving until it fits through.

We start with straight grained red oak lumber and cut it on a table saw into squares just a little larger, say 1/8" then the finish size of the peg.

At a shaker village, I visited a few years ago, I saw all different type, and sizes of shaving horses:

Here are some:





And here is a close up of my horse with a peg in it's clamp:



Email me if you want the plans, anyone.....


Wow, what a corrupt upload.....

From Timbeal:



And:



He can explain these shots.

Jim Rogers

Thanks Jim, there is 2 knots with holes for testing peg fit, as Jim mentioned. No plans included it is up to the individual to make changes to fit their needs, just keep it simple. Shaving pegs is a kid friendly job. That is my daughters boot to the left. Time wise one of my sons, at age 13, made 60 pegs in an hour, after riving. I have found in sawn stock, the grain can run off, it's worth the time to rive. Tim

Tenon length depends on the work it has to do, if any. 3" for minor girts, studs and braces, 4" for post tops, and longer than that for major horizontal members like tenoned joists, tie beams. If there's any tension at all, 5" would be a minimum. You have to balance that with the hassle of a deep mortise (if not thru). The weather problem with an exposed tenon end is a good point by Carlos. I would suggest making the tenon on the horizontal piece 5" long and using two 3/4" pegs 1.5" off the shoulder with 1.5" edge distance (3" in between pegs). Keeping the pegs nearer the shoulder gives good relish at 3.5"
Eric Sloane and "Woodworking in Colonial America" have plans for shaving horses.

How do you get kids to sit and rive 60 pegs in an hour? I wouldn't think kids would have the pateince. Isn't it like punishment to them? Or do you place a Playstation in front of the horse? Is this a violation of child labor laws?

60 pegs! -- that's awesome. Oak? Green?

NO violation, family member. And a shaving horse is so far ahead of a play station, its not funny. There was one day he worked in the kitchen, shaving pegs for so long he had blisters. He has a self motivated drive. For the 60, I showed him the post and he said "no way it was 100" I said " come on, it was only 60" he said "probably". He was taking acccoustic up right base lessons and he rented the base, to pay for the rent he made pegs, a buck a peg. He would try and keep up with me when he was younger and now I have to keep up with him. I am not bragging with times, just sharing what is possible. I think, most folks think hand tool are slower, which they are, but they are also very efficient, and often more effective. As is the case with pegs. My experience with sawn and turned is grain run off. Tim

NO violation, family member. And a shaving horse is so far ahead of a play station, its not funny. There was one day he worked in the kitchen, shaving pegs for so long he had blisters. He has a self motivated drive. For the 60, I showed him the post and he said "no way it was 100" I said " come on, it was only 60" he said "probably". He was taking acccoustic up right base lessons and he rented the base, to pay for the rent he made pegs, a buck a peg. He would try and keep up with me when he was younger and now I have to keep up with him. I am not bragging with times, just sharing what is possible. I think, most folks think hand tool are slower, which they are, but they are also very efficient, and often more effective. As is the case with pegs. My experience with sawn and turned is grain run off. Tim