I have a historical question.

Through my research and visits to old barns here in Maine, I notice most have long continuous plates tying the bents together. But a couple real oldies are missing the top plates and instead have sectioned girts tying the bents together...no top plates. At the eaves, vertical wall sheathing runs beyond the top girts to hit the roof boards.

Is this system of bent construction an old english carryover or just a different method? Perhaps the barns with long, continuous top plates were assembled differently. That is, the long walls were made as "bents" with crossties tying them together. ??

I have a photo but don't know how to post one here...

Don

Lots of post here about how to post a picture. Try doing a simple search for instructions.

I'd like to see the photo.

If you can't post it email it to me and I'll post it for you.

Hi Don,

What dates do you have for your oldie barns and where are they located ?

I echo Jim's request to see some pics of your finds.

You might find it worthwhile to browse the pages of "Discovering Timber-Framed Buildings" by Richard Harris where the English system of framing (long walls and cross frames) is explained.

Though one can generalise there are always exceptions to the rule to be found and I can think of at least one early (1390's)building in Farnham, Surrey, England that exhibits interrupted wall plates but this building is surrounded by many others that have continuous wall plates.

Specific problems will demand exceptional design solutions but that exception does not make it a rule.

Regards

Ken Hume

Here is the picture:



First of all, your comments in the email to me with the picture says the rafter sits on a post.
I'm sorry but the rafter sits on a tie beam, over a post. There is quite a difference.
What really peaked my interest was the fact that you said a rafter sat on a post.
In colonial America there were no rafters sitting on posts, at least none that I've ever heard of.
Rafters either sat on plates, as in common rafter roof systems or rafters sat on ties such as this.

This tie and rafter combination may make the roof assembly a truss. It's hard to tell without further pictures.

It is possible that the walls were raised and then the ties were lowered onto the posts, and then the rafters set into the tie. Or with gin poles it may have been raised as a truss and set on whole. It's hard to tell without further pictures or details.

Jim Rogers

Ken,

The barns are from the 1790-1820 era, and are located in Gray, Maine (20 minutes north of Portland). The rafters sit directly atop the crossties, which are directly over the posts.

It really is odd for this area. Their age leads me to think it's an old english carry-over... You know, the forests of England couldn't supply really long timbers for continuous plates. These barns here in Gray are 50 and 60 feet long. Perhaps these builders were more familiar w/ an older method??

I'll email you pictures directly.

Jim. Thanks for posting the photo. Your prowess at the forum is far greater than mine.

Sorry for the mistake. Yes the tie bears the rafter directly.

So I take it this method is a bit out of the norm, ay? I'm curious because I've been to over 20 barns here in the area and only 3 have this method of bent construction. All others have long top plates regardless of rafter system. In your opinion, is it an old english carry-over, or just different?

Hi Don,

Thank you for the digi pics that you sent direct to me but it seems that Jim's post above made this unnecessary.

I note in the top picture that this shows a post with circular saw conversion marks and according to Keith Wilbur's - Home Building and Woodworking in Colonial America - this method of conversion did not appear until 1840 so your date range might be a bit early or alternatively this might be a replacement post.

Don't get too hung up on England being short on long timber. Even if long timbers were available it would be more than likely that scarfed ties would be employed to help ensure good alignment and facilitate phased construction.

This form of debased timber frame design is a simplified building method when compared with earlier continuous (including scarfed) top plate wall frames and as such is likely to be later in date than the continuous plate barns that you have encountered.

Jim,

The Farnham example given above has the post intersecting directly into the underside of the principal rafter and it was for this reason that the wall plates were interrupted. This is rather a special design feature and tends to be found where large arch braces connect the posts to pricipal rafter and then principal rafter to collar to form an open arch frame. If its on interest I can post a photo.

Regards

Ken Hume

Hi All;

Don, I would like to see your photos. The photo Jim R. posted is what I expected to see. I have been thinking these were a later style, not necessarily imported from England. I have a 38x50 barn like this in storage which was built using parts of an older barn near Farmington, ME. I do not think it is an unusual style. They are gable entry barns, correct?

Ken, I agree circular sawn materials indicate a later date. Here in Waldoboro I am trying to narrow down the date of circular sawn material by finding buildings of known dates and looking at there materials. Near as I can tell cercular saws were first used for smaller materials like lath and edging boards and planks starting in the early 1870s. Timbers sawn on a circular saw here start appearing in the 1880s. Another example of when a particular technology was introduced in Waldoboro is that hand made nails were still being used in 1814. Most experts will tell you that a building which has hand made nails is 18th century...not necessarily.

I have not been in nearly as many barns as I would like, but what I have seen is a wide variation in framing styles in Maine; some of which I believe have not been given names or been recorded. In comparison to natural history where you have to dive in a cave to discover new species, unrecorded framing joints and framing typologies are in our own back yards. The field of historic carpentryology is still quite young!

Don, one of my goals in life is to identify historic framing styles and there distribution throughout Maine...Let's talk.

Jim Derby, barnologist

Ken:

Thank you.

And the saw-marked post is a replacement. The barn is circa 1820 tops. I thought I'd hear from folks about this sawn post. (It's hard to find a section to photograph of a barn full of stuff!) But 80 percent of the barn is indeed hand-hewn. The sheathing displays straight, vertical saw marks.

I had a hard time understanding your paragraph: This form of debased timber frame design is a simplified building method when compared with earlier continuous (including scarfed) top plate wall frames and as such is likely to be later in date than the continuous plate barns that you have encountered.

Are you saying the barn I'm asking about is later in date than continuous plate barns? Sorry, I'm not clear on what you mean by "debased."

This barn has me asking about bent construction. Specifically, the origins of this "sectioned-girt" style, or lack of a traditional continuous top plate.

Don

Hey Jim...

I'd love to talk. The circular sawn post is a replacement. I only have seen this style of bent construction on the older barns here in Southern Maine. Early early 1800s. Gray/New Gloucester is where I've been doing my detective work. I write a series on old barns for a local paper there. Very much settled by the English.

I judt thought this style was from a lck of long timber in England, i.e. an "English carry-over."