Hello, Iam new to the site by way of posts but I have been lurking around for quite some time. I am in the process of ordering the timber, which will be FOHC Doug Fir, for my frame. The great debate is Green vs. Traditional KD vs. RFKD. In concert with that decision comes the lumber grade decision, ie. #1 or dense select structural. Any information with regards to the green versus dry would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

welcome, rgator.

Could you tell us a little about the frame, including where the site is?

The site is in Maryland. The house is 5500 sq. ft. and is completely timber frame except for the garage. The main roof is a hip with a few gable dormers and turrets. The roof will be 2x6 T&G. I am still debating the use of sips on the roof versus a built up system. The 2nd floor system will be on 1x6 T&G fir with a standard 2x4 floor joist system on top. The exterior walls will be 2x4 with spray foam insulation.
As I stated in the original post I am in the process of selecting the material for the frame. I have received a crash course on Doug Fir in the last 2 weeks. The only problem is that the teachers are the sales people, that are attempting to get you to buy there product. In light of that I figure that this would be an excellent place to get an unbiased opinion.I think that about sums it up. If further elaboration is needed I will be more than happy to comply. I could write a novel with regards to this project but this is not the place for that.

Thanks

Dry Doug Fir is awful to work with hand tools - very dusty and brashy and hard to work cross-grain with a chisel - so unless your really tooled up to do all power tools or even a CNC machine, I'd suggest green. Shrinkage is higher than most softwoods, but not like hardwood. FOHC should minimize checking.

Thanks for the reply Will. Thats the delima, green dense select structural or a KD or RFKD #1. Is the dry material worth the 20K price difference. I am hoping there will be others who have been through this decision that can share there results.

Thanks
Ron

Good day RGATOR,
First I would ask why you are choosing a non regional species?

ON TO DOUGLAS FIR:
Before I switched to Forest Stewardship Council Certified Douglas Fir, I would speck out Green, FOHC, Dense, #1 and Better (+ end grain sealed and anti stain treated).

On occasion I speck out Select Structural, however the mills that I receive timbers from send out at least 50% + Select Structural even when ordering #1 and Better.

DRY WOOD:
Drying is unnecessary except in very specific applications and
common residential work such as your project is typically not one of them.

The net gain of conventional kiln drying large beams does not warrant the additional expense due to the fact that they can only dry 2"+- into the timber.

RFVKD works, but it is important to initially order oversized timbers and have them re-sawn to square and size after the RFVKD process is complete.

Rather than drying which increases the costs dramatically, I would focus on finding a saw mill that would provide you with the densest, highest grade material possible.

Dense in the grade books only specifies around 5 growth rings per inch, which in the Timber Frame world is not very dense at all for Douglas Fir.

Each mill's timbers may match up evenly according to grade, but it is the mill that will provide you with material well beyond the minimum grade standards that you want.

In the US, it is timbers from coastal southern Oregon such as Starfire, Herbert Mill and others that can supply this. In Canada it is the coastal BC mills such as TF Sawmill and others.

Will's comments regarding Douglas Fir's workability are of the highest importance. The denser the material is, the better it will be to work.

In summery,
20K price difference is not worth the additional expense (except for very specific applications)

Instead, I would put your money into finding the very best saw mill and material possible.

For your consideration:
Another avenue is to purchase Forest Stewardship Council Certified Douglas Fir and let go of the "best" grade (which will undoubtably come from old growth forests) and instead choose a more ethical source of Douglas Fir.

Hi Collin, I appreciate the response. I selected Doug Fir because of its looks and physical characteristics. I have spoken to the mills you have mentioned and many others. Ihave received samples that have 16 to 18 rings per inch. Naturally they would send there tightest samples but I guess I can resolve that in the spec. The dense material commands a high price as well. I was told that most of the dense high end Doug Fir goes over seas where it commands huge money.I will say that your response, with regards to quality green versus dry and conventional drying, has been repeated several times to me.

Thanks
Ron

What the hell's been going on since I've been gone? How did you manage to get to this point, Swanger?
Matter of time, I suppose...

But FOHC cedar will make you a nice, long-lasting temple - the citizens of the future will be revering you to eternity - good choice.

I'd stick with the 74 FJ paint it rattle can pearl white and throw some spinna's on it

The Ferrari Enzo , of course...
Are you worthy?

I'm not trying to be a wet rag here, but I think we should keep to the topic for the most part. Even if you don't consider hijacking rude, you have to admit that it doesn't add much to the exchange of information.

Let's try to keep the casual conversation in its place and keep our replies to questions on-topic. That way the search tool isn't rendered useless because 30, 40 or 50% of the replies have nothing to do with the original post.

I hope people don't hate me now.

Hi Derek & Christina,

Regretably you have managed to lose me as well and thus I tend to agree with Gabel about trying to stay on track.

The difficulty that I am experiencing in trying to understand the line and relevance of some of your posts might simply be a question of familiarty with a personal style to which I am not accustomed and hence I confess that sometimes I can find it a little difficult to understand and follow exactly what it is that you are trying to say.

Please don't take umbridge with me or Gabel.

You have a lot to contribute.

Best Regards

Ken Hume

No, I don't hate you, Gabel. In fact, I'm a big fan! See you next week. CB.

I'm with you Gabel. I got lost too when the chatter started. The topic was Doug Fir-Green vs. Traditional KD vs. RFKD and grade selection.

Gabel,Ken,Brad,Will B,Collin, thanks.

Dereck, or should I refer to you as Mr.Swanger, Sir? - WOW, what was all that?

Rgator,

Where in Maryland are you building? I'm building a TF house in western Howard County.

I used DF for my frame. I don't have the breadth of experience that many here have, but I'll pass along what I'[ve learned.

First, steer clear of standing dead DF. I was lured in by the thought of using an environmentally friendly product, as well as the claims of highly stable timbers. What I got were extremely green timbers, full of wane/rot/wood borers. Even properly stacked, those timbers twisted and bowed like heck. A large portion of them ended up being unusable. That one purchase resulted in such a gigantic waste of time and money that it makes me ill just thinking about it. (BTW, their sample was beautiful, clear, and dry as a bone.)

I purchased the second half of my timbers from Reliance Specialty Building Products. I was extremely pleased with both the level of customer service and the quality of the timbers. I ordered "DF, Kiln-dried to approx 19% MC 1" from surface, S4S to full dimensions, #1btr FOHC no wane, select for appearance."

I certainly agree with others that this material is a little hard to work, but I didn't find it THAT difficult. I've been working these timbers by myself over a period of 14 months. Because of that, I needed timbers that were a bit more stable. I wanted to have some level of confidence that these timbers will fit together when the time comes.

If the timbers were going from chisel to frame in a couple of weeks, I could see where green timbers would have an appeal.

I've got plenty of scraps around, if you want to get an idea what the actual product (and not a selected sample) is like.

Jon

Jon, I am in northern Baltimore county. Check your Private messages.

Ron

You forgot to mention what car is best for driving across country to visit the forest.

Visiting the forest and mill sounds like a great idea, though I doubt that it would ensure the quality of the timbers you would receive. Great road trip though, if you had money and time to burn. (A small percentage of the overall budget is still a big number.) When I was preparing my house foundation, and ordering tools/materials for the frame, both time and money were precious commodities. Even so, I was prepared to take the 2000+ mile trip out west.

But, choosing my own logs was not an option, at least through the company I choose. I tried to arrange a trip to inspect the timbers prior to shipment. Even that was problematic, since they could not give me more than a couple days of notice and couldn’t hold the timbers for my review. The mill made it clear that I would be taking my chances, and that it was very unlikley that I would show up at a time when the timbers were available for inspection. Make of that what you will.

I think, in practical terms, the approach you suggest is viable if you are using locally grown timbers. If you are using timber grown on the other side of the country, you pretty much have to trust the integrity of the mill to provide what they say they'll provide.

As far as being “lured”, that may have been a poor choice of words. Thanks for pointing that out.

I liked the idea of not cutting a few dozen live trees for use in my frame. I also liked the idea of using timbers that had partially dried on-the-stump. I willingly paid a premium for those two factors. But, the timbers I got were green. They certainly were not dry/stable, as advertised, and I wonder if they were dead prior to the chainsaw.

I am just trying to pass my experience along to anyone considering standing dead timbers. They should know that what they advertise is not always what they deliver.

Of course, if you can be on hand as the crew selects, fells, and mills your timbers, that’s the best way to know what you’re getting.

if you were, initially, trying to be environmentally friendly why not use locally harvested materials. East coast timber is gourgeous , close by and a hell of alot more pleasurable to work with than DF. I am just not as enamored with DF or at all as other TFers seem to be. How about an oak or white pine or cypress or anything that isn't pink?

with love to the status quo.

I wanted to use white oak. My wife wanted douglas fir. So we compromised...... and used douglas fir!

understood....no shame....many a man has compromised in the same fashion.