Hi Timbeal:

I am a firm believer that things were done in many ways, and it sounds like the article which I am not familiar with states clearly that the ring of sill timbers were probably Hewn,
Mortised and Framed in the yard close to the construction site. I would expect that at this point the seatings were all completed.

At the same time or previously the stone walls were raised ready for the ring of sill timbers. Once in place on top of the stone walls the timbers were probably wedged and levelled up and then thin stones and mortar filled any gaps, which would be normal in that case.

In our case we did not have stone walls but individual large flat stones placed so that they were under the load bearing points.

We also levelled up the sill timbers as best we could without a transit to work with, the main thing being that no wind in the timber placement was allowed. We then filled in the gaps with an historic mortar mixture which was 3 sand and 1 of slacked lime.

Whether the original timbers were seated and how much is not an issue because we were using freshly hewn timbers which were as I mentioned oversize, I think that I mentioned 3\4" roughly.

I hope this answers your question I have did the best I can to make it clear for everyone.

You did mention that you wondered what the level reference was well for me it would have probably have been no doubt 3 different places 1--the seatings on top of the sill, 2--the framing line on the side of the timber sill there from the work of the framers), or 3--the half lap mortises on the corners. Any one of these spots could have been used as a levelling reference point

Thanks again for the additional dialogue I am sure that many are following this conversation along

NH

Hello everyone

I am still waiting for some feedback on the questions that I posted a couple of night ago that deal with the framing irregularities of the barn we are discussing. So jump in and take a stab I am sure that many would like to hear what you have to say.

NH

Was it an 8" post?

sounds like the framer was setting out from/to the edge of the post, not the center, so it was an even 10' to the edge?

Good evening everyone:

Well thanks Gabel and Derek for what I would call I believe very educated answers.

First part--
Gabel--pretty good response I would say--

The original framer when he laid out for the mortise to secure the bottom of the purlin posts had it in his mind that the exact centre of the rafter would bear directly on the outside corner of the purlin plate, and that necessitated moving the mortise over 4" closer to the centre of the building the posts being 8" square. In my book this was pretty good work and it certainly was not done by a green horn, but by a very experienced framer who was pretty particular I must say.

I had sort of forgot about it until we were doing an initial layout of a pair of rafters on the ground prior to the raising and discovered why the mortise ended up where it was.

Derek:--also a good guess I must say

The extra height over the walkway gave a little more clearance for the horses heads especially their ears as they entered on their way to their stalls.

Personaly I would have put the ceiling timbers in level if I had been the one in charge of the framing at that time.

I must say though that lighting was not a factor because of the small windows in this case.

Thanks again for coming on board

NH

How many hands high were these horses? Tim

In the same article of TFing #81 Sobon mentions "The top side of the floor framing is, of course, the reference face, assumed to be flat and level". This being a series of articles on English barns in America and NH, you being in Canada? Could those folks of been applying a different approach to framing? NH, I believe you would find this series of articles very interesting.

In the last few post were you discussing a drive shed or the stable? Tim

Hi everyone

Timbeal well I have no way of knowing even what kind of horses was used approx 148 years ago I expect though that they were the "Canadian Breed" which is a small tough working type which I believe came out of Quebec, but then I am not a horseman by no stretch of the imagination.

Also Thanks for the push in the direction of future reading I am always open to new information when it comes to historical subjects.

I am sure that Sobon wrote some good articles which I am sure he can back up with personal experience or research no doubt, but there again we need to keep an open mind.

I did work under the direction of one of Canada's leading restoration arhitects during my life's work, and to that I have added experiences like looking closely at what was done by the common carpenters from long ago. I have also listen with interest to the experiences of others in my field including writers like Mr Sobon, and others that have come and went before him. I was also fortunate to have discussed with thousands of tourists woodworking topics, of which timberframing and hewing was right near the top. They came from all over the world England, Australia, France, USA, and the last few years from Russia many groups I hosted personally with translators. I learned from them and it made me humble and it made me realize that our history is so young compared to Europe, japan, England, Italy and the list goes on.

I marvel at what the younger generation is doing in the timberframing world today as they push the timberframe homes to their limit to please the builders.

I was discussing the 3 bay barn that I reconstructed using the original as my blueprint so to speak. My main objective was to preserve for future generations the fast disappearing barns and other outbuildings, that were constructed in my immediate area, realizing that there probably were changes due to the many ethnic groups that settled here in 1784 climate being another factor in a style change.

I am sure that I am boring some that are dropping in so I am signing off for tonight.

Thanks for the feedback

NH

Hi everyone

Just out of curiosity since I have never read one of Sobon's books, could you give some of his background

Thanks

Nh

Jack does not use a computer so he cannot answer peresonally here. I do not know him too well but I will share what I know.

Jack is a liscensed architect who has been studying historic timber framing for over two decades. He is a hands on researcher: for example, one of his recient topics has been English barns. In studying English barns, he built one at his house using traditional methods and tools, even raising it by himself with a gin pole.

Jack and Tedd Benson, who reciently replied to the interupted plate thread on this forum, have come to represent two opposing philosophies of timber framing: study and reproduce traditional frames using old techniques to relearn some of the lost information verses Tedd's forward looking, modernistic approach.

Jack, sponsored by the National Park Service, put together the book Historic American Timber Joinery: A Graphic Guide. To me this book is a very important record of wooden building joints in North America. He has collected information on about 12 more joints which were not included in the first edition and there are probably more out there. Everyone should have this book and when an unrecorded joint is located, the information should be recorded and sent to Jack. Not to be critical, but this book does not (yet) include information on the use of wall planks such as plank-on-frame or true plank houses, the shapes of posts (gunstock, joweled, taipered, etc.), or some nailed joints (hip jack rafters are usually nailed onto the hip rafters).

Currently he is studying steeples. One big advantage Jack has in not using a computer is the steeple drawings he has been producing for Timber Framing are so complex they cannot be done with a CAD system, only by hand (so far!).

I am sure there is alot more to the story.

Jim

Good evening everyone

It is always nice to have a message or reply waiting and yours was great Jim.

Thanks for the background information on Mr. Sobon, I have heard his name, book and workmanship passed back and forth as a reference medium many times, it seems to me that he possess a great deal of background information on true historical timberframing, and other topics, my hat is off to him.

NH