At the urging of others, (who are completley right) here's a topic where we can share ideas about some survey lists.

Here's my barn list... something I developed after visiting/documenting 20 barns this past winter.

My goal is to keep it to a single sheet (double-sided), which is really tough to do. But a single page makes it practical to take to a site. I have a WORD version of this in "landscape" format that fits nicely on 8.5 X 11 paper.

This is strictly a "field sheet." And could possiblty become part of an online version at some point.

Again, this is a barn list geared toward New England buildings. Another seperate list would probably work better for homes.

What are some suggestions / additions?





Barn Survey Sheet

Location: _____________________________________Date:__________________

General

Age: _____________________________
Size: _____________________________
Attached to house? Y / N
Type (threshing, cattle, chicken, other): ________________
Main entry location (gable, eave, N, S, E, or West entrance)
Roof style and pitch: _______________________________
Axis of ridgeline (N/S, E/W, other)
Number of stalls / Haymows: ________________________
Number of floors: _____________

General Frame Details

Square or Scribe rule (circle)
Sawn or hewn timber
• Sawn: describe marks: __________
• Hewn: Adzed or rough
Size of timbers: ________________________
Number of bents: _______________________
Bent spacing: __________________________
Number of bays: _____(symm., asymmetrical)
Width of bays: _________________________
Pegging details / species, etc.: ___________
____________________________________________
____________________________________________
Marriage mark details: _____________________
____________________________________________
____________________________________________


Foundation

Type: split granite, common stone, other: ____________________________________

Dry or mortared ?
Basement? Y / N
Full or open on any particular side(s)
(N, S, E, W)
Sill size: _______Continuous or scarfed?
Number / spacing of columns: __________ Type: _______________________________
Joist size and spacing: ___________________
Plank size: ____________________________

Walls

Post type: _____________________________
Girts or scantlings
Spacing and size of above: _______________
Plates: continuous / interrupted / scarfed / absent (CG)
Horizontal or vertical boarding
Describe sawmarks on boarding / scantlings: _______________________
Thickness of boarding: __________________
Attachment method / style of nail: _____________________________________
Siding? Y / N, type: _____________________________________
Location of, number of windows / doors:
_____________________________________
Number of panes / style of sash (nine-over-six pane, etc.):
_____________________________________


Roof

Purlin or common rafter system
Truss type:____________________________
Size and spacing of purlins:_______________
Size and spacing of rafters:________________
Ridge beam / board? Y / N
Rafter tails bear on plates or crossties
Continuous or scarfed crossties
Vertical / Horizontal boarding
Thickness of boarding:___________________
Sawmarks on boarding:__________________
Roofing details:________________________
_____________________________________

Restorations/Additions:
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

Notes: _______________________________________
______________________________________________
______________________________________________
______________________________________________
______________________________________________

Sketches / Misc. info:

Hi Don,

It would be important to collect information in a way that will allow you to analyse the findings and then draw comparisons between the different buildings in a consistent way.

I have found a typical vernacular buildings research form that I will send to you by private email.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, if you're willing, and able, to share this form, I'll see to it that it is available to members of this forum.

For the good of the order, etc.

Hi Joel,

There is the small matter of copyright to respect.

I will in the first instance send this to Don and yourself and then you can both use this as a check list to compare with your own form, identifying and extracting those items of information that you might consider have been ommitted from Don's base form for inclusion in same. This way we will respect copyright.

I am not trying to be awkward.

Regards

Ken Hume

COMPLETELY understood.

Ken,

Thanks for sending the PDF of the DBRG form. Like the TTRAG form, it is another sample to build on. Wouldn't it be nice to put a pdf in a posting?

I must say it is a bit "foreign" for an American like me There are terms I've never heard such as wealden and jettying in regards to framing. And it's generally more of an historical overview for a building... kind of vague. Not really technical. I think we need a form with specifics. For example there is nowhere to list bent spacing, or what type of wall plate (continuous, scarfed, absent, etc).

Anyway, like you said, we need a form to compare buildings. The one I have attempted can be used in this manner. Perhaps a more specific categorization is needed???

I like the TTRAG "Short survey list"
http://www.tfguild.org/ttrag/ttragsurvey.html
in that it's a good general overview, but again it isn't quite specific enough. There is no section for bent spacing or wall plate detail, or even rafter spacing. There is no sawmark section either. The "TTRAG Historic Wooden Structure Archives
Survey Checklist"
http://www.tfguild.org/ttrag/surveychecklist.html
is getting better. I very much like the joinery section w/ questions like "Which side of interior framing is the reference face - east, west, north, south? (Braces are often flush with reference face)," but the format is a bit restrictive w/ the checkboxes. I'd need additional paper to describe the questions in the checkboxes.

In short, I'm trying to build on Tim Beal's excellent request to have a form one can take to a building for documentation.

There must be some TTRAG folks here with there own opinions and questions. Maybe even share their own list that they've come up with.

Hi Don,

Please check out my email just sent to you.

Regarding dimensions - these would be duly recorded on the recording drawings and not on the checklist.

Regarding foreign terminolgy - you are now beginning to develop an understanding about "what you don't know" and that is one of the marvels of the timber framing journey. Try substituting overhang for jetty.

There are certainly plenty of jettied (overhung) buildings in MASS. e.g. The Appleton - Taylor - Mansfield House in Saugus, Mass., Converse House, Woburn, Mass. (now demolished), Stanley - Lake House, Topsfield, Mass, The White - Ellery House, Gloucester, Mass., - all as neatly documented and illustrated in The Framed Houses of Masachusetts Bay 1625-1725 by Abbott Lowell Cummings. This book is essential reading for any New England timber framing aficionado. Re your unfamiliarity with the term Wealden - this now begs the question - why then are there no Wealden form timber frame houses in New England since these are part jettied.

Have you checked the new TF Wiki glossary of terms regarding the definition of these words. Jetty is included but Wealden is missing. I will now have a go at adding a definition of Wealden to the glossary.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken

Thanks for adding Wealden to the glossary. What an obscurity. Even one of this Guild's own directors hadn't a clue. You are a source for us, Sir.

Now, this is getting toward the "off topic" realm, but I can only speculate as to your question why we don't see any wealden in New England homes. Could it be just too much like England if we had done so? Colonists didn't much care for the "Mother country." Maybe, too, the early builders just really hated to chop up those long timbers (wall plates)...

Didn't the whole "jettying" concept come from a particular need anyway? I think I read that the overhangs became necessary for pedestrians to walk safely down side walks. Back before modern sanitation systems, sewage and all manner of things were routinely tossed out one's second story window to the street below. Those jettys allowed the "tosser" to miss the passersby, who walked safely underneath.

Curious, but how far does the average jetty overhang there in England. Enough for a person to walk under?

At TTRAG "08" we all got to tour a number of forebay barns. The over hangs were around 7'-8'. Plenty of room to walk from door to door while doing the chores, and stay out of the weather.

Don, I have recently been studying the early colonist. It is my understanding that the revolution was a difficult decision for them. They loved the mother country and struggled with the conflict. There were a fair number of loyalist who believed the war was wrong. They actually mimicked their home land(tea time). After the war the people so wanted a leader, Washington, some pushed to have him King. But he wouldn't have it.

I like the real estate reason for having a jetty. You may only have a few square feet of land and can spit on the neighbors, but look at all the space above the street, free for the taking. Just extend the building out into the street at a upper level. You have now gained some room with out annoying the neighbors. So, land was so huge here there was no need of jettys. In stead move the house back from the road and plant a tree or two or even a lilac bush. As for the neighbor, he was not even in sight.

Also Don have you had a chance to add some parts of Ken's list to yours?

Have I mentioned the house here in town which is coming down. 1860, parsons house next to a church. I think it is a transition building. Mortice and tenons, braces, top plates, common rafters spiked on and I think balloon framed as well full first to second floor stud. The plaster is just now coming off. No rot anywhere, making room for a parking lot for the church. I have taken pictures and am trying to get some measurements and fine details. With barns we see the structure, but the house is covered until it comes apart.

Don, your list pertains mostly to barns. I will have to go back to the TTRAG surveys and see if they are some what universal. Tim

Well, I can't edit, I guess that hasn't been fixed yet, which is fine I don't edit much any way. The short form will work fine. It has a check off box for what type of building.....house. Tim

Tim

I was speculating about the jettys. Real estate is another good speculation for them... History clearly shows most colonists were less than OK w/ the mother country. They ultimately did chose to fight a war against England. But this is trivial.

As far as the list, I have not had a chance to add Ken's terms to the list. I'm still finding out what they mean!! We need a form that's readily accessible w/ terms common to most. When someone like Joel McCarthy dosen't even know what wealden is, we have an obscurity that likely should not be on a list.

As intended, the list I came up with [b]is [/b] for barns. And New England ones at that. I was thinking/hoping someone would add a "house list." But I'm not sure the interest is really there.

That 1860 parson's house sounds interesting. Why don't you come up w/ a list or use TTRAGs and see how it can be improved/added to?

Hi everyone:

good topic and I am really learning some new terminology.

when I was active in building searches I always carried my 35mm camera, my video camera (which I could talk to), and a scratch pad to take notes on. We did not have so to speak a form to use.

I then at my leisure back at home base put together piece by piece a good plan for restoration purposes. It was very seldom that I did not have to return to gather additional information to clarify certain details.

One item that I noticed omitted from the form above was the type of nails used and details of the rafters as a reference

NH

One item that I noticed omitted from the form above was the type of nails used and details of the rafters as a reference

NH

disregard that last post attempt. I'm still trying to learn how to quote folks.

NH:

Detective work on old buildings is kind of fun, isn't it? Thanks for perusing the barn list. We need one for houses. But I'm not the one to draft that I'm afraid. I like barns: nice and straightforward... owners often don't mind if you pull nails or take pictures. Their homes are a bit more private, you know?

Anyway I did include a line for nail info in the wall section. This should probably extend to the roofing section as well (???). And rafter details have a line or two in the roof section: Purlin or common rafter/ size/spacing, etc. are listed.

Jettys in England were in style in the 15th and 16th century. They were a style that passed on, so by the time of major settlement here in the now U.S. the style had passed on. They were a sign of wealth as well, more cash more jettys. I was checking collar out in the book Discovering Timber-Framed Buildings by Richard Harris and came across Jetty.

On a historic note George Washingtons very own Mother was a loyal Brit to the end. She found it hard to understand why her lovely son could lead the troops in rebellion. She most likely took a neutral stance with the war, or could of found herself tarred and feathered.

Today is Margaretta Day here in Machias, home of the first Navel battle of the Revolutionary War. I was recruited to do some reenacting with a axe, my brother and I are hewing some timber and maybe a few tenons and a mortice or 2. Tim

Hi Tim,

You might well be a bit out on your dates re jettied buildings.

Please check out the following link where I have posted a picture of two double end jettied buildings standing side by side in Winchester, Hampshire - ancient capital of Wessex and headquarters for William the Conqueror.

The double jettied building on the left next to the butter cross has been dendro dated to 1347 with the adjacent rendered double jettied building being dendroed to 1507. The 1347 building is quite remarkable in that it was completed immediately before the arrival of the black death in 1348 which killed between one third and one half of Winchester's population.

http://www.kfhume.freeserve.co.uk/pictures/otherpics/no 42 (1347) & 43 (1507) High St Winchester.jpg

Throwing things into the streets from upper storey windows is not really a practical proposition since these windows were fitted with fixed mullion bars and thus any "goop" thus launched would have hit the inside of the bars and then run down on the inside of the building. Yuk ! Clearly we did loose the American war of independance but we are not that stupid. George's mother might well have had a point.

I did make reference earlier to Abbott Lowell Cummings book in which it is clear that the building of jettied houses continued well into the 1600's i.e. 17th century in New England. I have seen jettied or overhung buildings in Kennebunkport, Maine.

Regards

Ken Hume

Hi,

I am sorry but the end of the web ref string reference above has been cut off and since the edit button doesn't work (yet - if ever) you will have to copy and paste the whole string above into your browser.

Ken

Hi,

Try this link (no spaces in string)

http://www.kfhume.freeserve.co.uk/pictures/otherpics/no42(1347)&43(1507)HighStWinchester.jpg

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken and Tim:

We are getting off topic.

Ken, sorry but it happened. Please don't take offense. I was only speculating on jetty origin.

Sewage was indeed thrown into the street from second floor windows in England. here is a link and its accompanying text:

http://www.anglianwater.co.uk/index.php?sectionid=87&contentid=117
Up to the 20th Century, human sewage could be put straight on the fields and gardens. It was called ‘night soil’ and in some places, the night soil man was employed to collect it and deal with it. This was still an improvement from Elizabethan times when the contents of pots were just thrown out of the window onto the street!

Also, this book deals w/ specifics regarding sewage hitting passersby, my theory on jettys:

http://books.google.com/books?id=BnC9Rzz...JYkmp0z9OLJvld4

Hey it sounds like a new start is in the works and maybe we can stay better on topic with it.

I am not off with the dates, Richard Harris is. 100 years isn't that far off any way, and it still shows the point that they were in style before the colonization of the this land. there has to be some fudge room. I am not arguing there weren't jettied buildings, just not a lot?

No mater how you look at it, the black death and goop on your window mullions, it must of been a tough time to live. Tim

Hi,

When a new "off topic" developes within a topic how do we manage to backtrack and make this into a tring in its own right ?

I would like to reply further but will resit that temptation.

Regards

Ken Hume

p.s. So Richard Harris is wrong eh ! Well now there's a first.

Good morning Ken, on page 53, under Urban Details of Richard Harris's book it says "Perhaps the most obvious feature was the use of oversailing uppers storeys (known as jetties), which were extremely common in fifteenth-and sixteenth-century town buildings but only sporadically used in the country side." So I would like to say that Richard is actually right on with the dates you mentioned-1347 just short of the 15th century and 1507 smack in the 16th century. Is R Harris known to be wrong on occasion?

There must be a way to highlight a specific subject within a topic, which might be off, and than send it to the correct topic. If that is what must be done. For future referencing it would be helpful. But for the most part I don't mind a bit of wandering within the topics. I find that getting into a new chat room with a hundred choices and directions is a time consuming thing that comes with a learning curve. I prefer a simple route with only a choice or two to get me to where I want to go. The same for a web site, if I have to jump through a bunch of hoops I am not going there. And keep the fine print to a minimum. Now, this section could be highlighted and sent to a different topic.

The War of Independence was a civil war which was lost by the Mother country. If the politics had been more united we would maybe still be British. United We Stand. Divided we.......

And back on topic. I found the short form to be OK but Dons may of been better and TTRAGS long form better, the short form is just lacking in details. I took a lot of pictures with a tape measure in place to show sizes and placement of mortice and tenons. Some quick sketches and notes. The fellow who is taking this building down is scrapping it and using pieces to make a different shaped structure. Its new location almost borders my land out here in the woods and I can go there for minor details as well. The main frame is 26'x30' and post in the corners(4x7's) only, no interior bents. The tying fixture was a 8" iron dog/staple. There is 8 of these, 4 on each gable bent, 2 at the top plate and 2 at the 2nd floor level, one on each side. In the survey forms I have not noticed any staples mentioned. I see these frequently in a lot of buildings. Mostly at tie beam locations which have failed and the dogs were added to stabilize the building? I question this though and wonder if they could of place them originally. The joint used is weak. Or maybe the barn was moved and they were added than. The ones in the parson's house was original, and used in a slightly different way. Tim

I am committed to the idea that the forums belong to its contributors.

This may not work.

If any member wishes to recommend to the moderator that a posting be moved to off-topic, restarted as a new thread, or even removed altogether, I'll likely take that recommendation, after some consideration.

Tim,

Nice to hear feedback on the TTRAG short form. I also think this is too general a form...

The whole staple/ dog thing is interesting. I'm not quite sure if I know what you mean. I have seen turnbuckles, cables and screw eyes in buildings, but not "staples." Are they like "log dogs" (see link)
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,44047&p=45780

But you make a good point about adding a line or two for hardware or other metal reinforcements in a frame survey.

And nothing wrong w/ topic wandering... as long as say 50 percent of communications remain on topic.

Hi Don,

I just checked the reports received yeaterday and lo and behold these include a barn equipped with staples connecting the crossbeam to the main post. These do indeed resemble log dogs and examination of the photo gives the impression that this might well be original kit. The use of iron is quite common in millwork and metal strapping is used to help hold together decaying buildings but this is the first time that I have seen this feature and I would hope that those more familiar with this technique could post some pictures and add a description to the glossary.

Regards

Ken Hume

The Staples or dogs in Lee Valley are a bit wimpy, and I am going to try a that for hewing the next time. I will make my own. I have always put them up on the top.

The ones I see are of 3/4"-1" stock and the ends are hammered to a flat screwdriver tip point, for more bearing surface, not a sharp point. The points are 3" long and the length of staple from end about 12"-18". The ones in the parsons house are 1/2" stock and 8" long.

It is said a fellow came through the area around 1900 and offered to add these dogs to your barn, a stabilization project of sorts, no proof of this though. Pictures? Tim

Interesting, Tim and Ken.

I can see how the dogs would be well suited to hewing.

I'm thinking a section on reinforcing hardware is needed for the barn list (but cannot edit the one here on the forum!!).

Funny how all the "simpson strong-tie" stuff is popular now w/ house carpenters.

And I'm wondering about date ranges: In the US, I'm apt to think frame hardware is a post-civil war thing. Industrial tech having progressed, etc. Like the parson's house dated around 1860s??. Anyone care to comment when this became common here??

Ken, is there a date-range in England for this reinforcing hardware, or is it quite wide spread?

Don --

Been meaning to weigh in for awhile now -

You have used the term bay out of place, framers would know this as the space between bents. You are I believe speaking of aisles (see wiki)

Pegging should maybe read turned & drawn as well as asking specie.

Conversion - under hewn, you site subcatagories of adzed and rough - I guess I don't know what that means - And beyound that it feeds the all too common misconception that the adze was a hewing tool.

The list needs to ask about referencing and convention of same.

Now as to "staples" I've seen them but a handful of times, Once on a barn I helped restore in Rindge NH which dated from the late 18th century - their placement was within a few years of the frame being raised, and was to overcome a design flaw and a rolling plate - I suspect my not seeing them with any frequency locally (I have seen more outside the area on buildings I've visited- most recently on log structures in Virginia, likewise arresting rolling plates) has something / much to do with coming from the heart of common purlin land.

Hi Will:

thanks for the contributions. You are much needed here.

Adzed or rough refers to when the builders/hewers stopped processing the timbers. How far they took things. You know, if you can still see the axe /score marks on the timbers from the scoring axe, or if they're nice and smooth (adzed). As I'm sure you know, not all timber frames, esp. barns, were adzed/smoothed. Yes, technicaly the adz is more of a finishing tool, but it is a good way to describe hewn timbers.... if they've been adzed or not.

And bay/aisle is good to clarify. I'm not too sure on the technicalities. In the list, symmetry is refering to dimentions on either side of center aisle. I will change this to read "aisle symmetry."

The pegging section is purposely left a bit vague because of space issues on paper. The details can be described by the investigator.... What is "drawn" in regards to pegs?

Referencing is something I'm still learning about. Please assist. I'll add this, but what do you mean by "convention" of referencing?

Interesting comment on the staples/ log dogs. And what is a "rolling plate?" Something like shrinkage?

Hi Don,

The barn drawings received this week demonstrate rather nicely a different convention in layout and asembly than was / is employed here in the UK. The "upper face" or reference face of the cross frame (bent) is used to measure, set out or pull dimensions to the next cross frame. Check out the Glossary re the definition for the term "upper face" which I recently modified. The New England barn has all of its reference faces facing the same way except for the last one which of necessity has to face outwards to provide a flat surface to accept sheathing. I rather suspect that this approach stems directly from the adoption of square rule but maybe someone else can help us more with this proposition.

Regarding rolling plates - I do recall a heated Sunday morning debate at a past TFG conference between Jack Sobon and Ed Levin where the very existence of this feature was debated.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, I started a thread, square rule or scribe rule and have not had the time to go back and look in more detail. The neat part is it has the reference faces as you mentioned all on the same side. As well as some other elements which are interesting. This layout is more typical of square rule layout. I see far more English barns with the layout done form the center bay and out. The two faces of the center bay are the reference, and the first and fourth bents are on the outside. Typically scribed. I have one sitting in my yard now. Is this the layout system you are seeing in your country? Tim

Hi Tim,

Pretty much yes that is very much an English practice and I would hazard a guess that your barn would be scribe rule rather than square with continuous plates ?

Regards

Ken Hume

Drawn = Riven & Shaved

Reference as Tim and Ken say above, and I think talk touched on it in the "No long" thread.

Look for which face the braces align to and record how that relates to the compass points and the entrance to the Barn.

This did not change with the shift to Square Rule, and continued to hinge on the use of the building and the position of the main door and much of the time, the threashing floor.

The roll I was speaking to, is to do with unresolved thrust literally lifting the inside corner of the plates, and the top outside / ref corner rolling out.

Thanks Ken. Interested to hear more on the recent surveys you received. I will revisit the glossary in regards to reference, etc.

So "rolling plate"... is this from shrinkage, or outward thrust from rafters. (This wouldn't happen in a CG frame. Perhaps yet another advantage!)

It seems I replied too early and missed the last page of comments: Will explaining rolling plate, etc.

Looks like we have some good makings for a new barn list.

Yes, the barn I have in a stack in my yard is scribe ruled. I still question the other one mentioned though. It shouts square rule with the exception of square fitting housings.

I was just reading that the threashing floor was put out of use and the term was dropped with the invention of the threashing machine in 1830-1860. Big House, Little House.... Tim

Hi Tim,

I beleive that the term "Threshold" is still in use in our language today. Brides are carried across the threshold. Thresholds were planks fitted into slots attached to the lower part of threshing bay door posts. This stopped grain seeds from flying out into the farm yard.

Regards

Ken Hume

I understand the term "Threshold", as it holds back the threshings. After the development of the threshing machine the center bay was no longer used for threshing, the use changed but the term has stuck. Thomas Hubka felt the term was mis-used with the development of the New England style barn which came along after after the threshing machine, and no more hand threshing in these barns.

I like the term threshold and carrying the bride across the threshold. I bet it has to do with fertility and many children to follow. Symbolism, could it have a Pagan background? Tim

That's what's I love about language/ words: literal and figurative uses of the same:

1. On the threshold of the blissful evening...

2. The threshold saved the farmer's labor when it was windy...

often times words begin as two parts which become hypenated, and ultimately singular. This likey happend w/ threshold:

thresh hold
thresh-hold
threshold

Ken -- I have several times found the bottom of posts in the drive bay/aisle fit out with mortises (slip morts at one end) for seasonal fitting of these planks, here in NNE.

I thought though, that they were called winnowing boards (I can't however recall why or from where that term came to reside in my head) and that the threashold was the slighly raised cill at the door that helped the wind seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Will, the Axe, the root of all things? I have winnowed the leaves from blueberries since the age of 8 years old. Curious if it is a NNE thing. Isn't threshing some you do with a stick and has a striking action involved, after which you winnow the grain/berries in my case. I don't strike them with a stick, that for sure. I wonder if during the winnowing stage if they had the chaff blow out the door or they would start the process close to the door and greet the wind coming fresh into the building? Tim

Hi Will n Tim,

The thresholds that I have seen are simply nailed on to the bottom of the posts - two per each side to create a slot into which the threshold planks are lowered onto the threshing floor. I think that Tim is correct in that winnowing is the process of lifting the threshed straw with a fork to separate the wheat or other grains from the chaff. A hinged stick was used to thrash the corn called a "flail" as in "flailed alive". The separated grain would have then been swept up, seived, measured, bagged and stored in the granary. Winnowing barns generally have their long walls faced into the prevailing wind to encourage a nice draft to blow across the threshing floor, exiting the barn via a door on the opposite side, the draft carrying with it any dust and small chaff. This must have been a very tedious process and one which was oft times monitored by a tallyman to prevent theft of the grain.

Regards

Ken Hume