I attended a Fox Maple workshop in the late 90's, they were marking some odd braces with marks on tenons, just penciled words which would allow them to be placed in the frame in proper order, the words used could have one banned from some forums. Is this anything done in historic buildings, hidden marriage marks? This goes along with the other thread I started "scrib or square rule", There was no marriage marks at all, visible.

Don, the wall work or replacement was the post themselves, the first barn had newer oak post on one wall. I was wondering if it was the same oriented wall as the second barn, south and south. I saw, in the 2nd barn, the posts on one wall in very much need of fixing. The one under the repaired tie almost gone its whole length, rotten. Tim

I agree about an article in the Guild Journal and perhaps a presentation at TTRAG, too. Perhaps the research could be collaborative so as not to place too heavy a burden on one person. You could all use the same form to survey different barns and then compile the data.

There has to be an easier way of finding CG barns.

Is there some way to get the word out to barn owners,historical societies, or some other group what you are looking for? I realize that most would have no idea if they have a CG barn or not, but it seems that some other way of discovering the true range and extent is called for other than leg work by one or a few trying to knock on doors and ask if they can see inside a barn.

Anyway, I'm a little jealous of your get together -- it sounds like great fun.

First off--

Thanks Ken, we were thinking of you on the tour. There is still a lot of little details I want to discuss here about the barns (in due time). And I'm all for helping publish something definitive about this frame type.

Though I'm learning as I go, It is a compelling and satisfying enterprise--as well as unexpected. I've lived here in the area (Cumberland County, Maine) my whole life (I am 38 yrs old). And I've driven by these places for years. Many are so unassuming... It's fascinating to find them of interest to the TFG community. In short, I am glad to offer up my time as a contributor to the effort.


Gabel:

You raise some good points. I know many Barn owners are not aware of their frame typologies, etc... The owner of our second barn on the tour has been a carpenter, owned his barn for over 30 years, and did not realize the building was constructed w/out top plates until I visitied him last winter for my little barn series here in the local paper. It was an eureka moment for both of us when we realized it.

Anyway, you may recall the Vermont Barn Census posting I did a short time ago. Well, I emailed the folks involved to request the CG phenomenon be part of the census recording... I've yet to hear from them. But it's a step toward what you suggest. There are Hist. societies here that I'm friendly with. Perhaps they can do a mailing??? Perhaps there is a type of umbrella historical society organization here in New England that could enlist more towns/ groups?

As an aside, Will was curious about the ethnicity /settlement history of this area. I told him that Gray, Maine was originally called "New Boston." And the very next town of Windham, was originally named "New Marblehead." When you throw "New Gloucester" (which borders Gray) into the mix, he realized these old names are right from the same area of Massachusetts... which ultimately leads straight to England. Folks in Marblehead and Gloucester, Mass should be contacted about their barns for comparison.

Is this anywhere near you, Jim Rogers?

Tim --

Scribe addresses are none so often visible in a finished frame as they are typically (then as now) marked on reference faces, as the scribing of layups is completed and just prior to pulling them apart, and as always these faces tend to be buried in sheathing and decking.

As you know, the exception tends to be arcade posts and braces and the girts between them in barns. (and in new exposed framing house frames – something clients tend to love) but as the pencil marks we saw Sat suggest, the trend was away from the awl in marking layout and the pencil (and red grease pencils) were used with increasing regularity to mark addresses.

It’s just supposition but it is not hard to believe that such marks were considered unsightly and may have been moved to unseen faces or tenon ends.

I guess it would take dismantling the right building to know for certain, and it’s a bit of a narrow window, marking seems to have only have begun changing just as scribe was falling out of dominance.

Will, I viewed a 36'x34' english barn yesterday, 16' posts, with an added bent acting as a manure shed. Scribed it was. No visible addresses, once again. found red and white dates and cursive initials in the barn, 1859, and A. W. The farm house built in 1815 also in very nice shape, as was 3 other smaller timbered out building, I've never seen so many in one spot. None of them were attached. The barn is so close to a CG, if the top plate was dropped just a matter of inches you would have it. The tie sets on the top plate. It also had "binding Beams", I'll look into that. Tim

Pictures of this one Tim? Sounds rare and interesting. Thanks.
Steve

Tim:

To clarify the questions of sides...they are different. Our first barn had the sawn posts on the NORTH side, whereas the 2nd (oldest) barn had the badly deteriorated post(s) --and replaced sheathing-- on the SOUTH.

That's neat info on your latest find-- almost a CG. I guess the true definitin of a CG doesn't really pertain to plate location as it does whether the ties bear directly over the posts.

Is that barn a common rafter roof or purlin? I've yet to see a CG that was not a purlin roof.

Keep snooping!

Hi Don,

It would not be possible for a CG roof to have common rafters since the CG's are below the elevation required to accept the feet of common rafters.

Regards

Ken Hume

Will:

Looks like the jury has spoken. It's a Square Rl'd barn.

And neat to hear your hypothesis on these odd housings... how they may have spawned Square Rule. Sounds perfectly plausible.

I was looking online at the Sobon joinery booklet that Jim Derby had copies of at the tour.

http://tfguild.org/joinery/joinery.html

And I couldn't help notice the purposley housed mortises on the posts in some of the diagrams... I know these were in use long before square rule, but they share an interesting commonality.

That odd housing in the first barn was on a post in much the same configuration as a mortise w/ a "diminished shoulder," as Sobon describes.

My point being that perhaps these housings grew out of shouldered mortises?

Not so fast Ken.

I know just what you mean. And this is why I posed this to Tim... that a CG needs a purlin roof just by default.

But I just this minute received a reply via email from Jan Lewandoski about CGs and the Vermont Barn Census. (I'm waiting to hear back if he'll allow me to post it here).

He says some CG barns he has seen in Vermont have common rafter roofs... he says it is rare, but they're out there. Suposedly, the rafter feet bear on big flying plates/purlins or the girts themselves.

Crazy isn't it?