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Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: TIMBEAL] #16572 08/15/08 01:29 PM
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Jim Rogers Online Confused
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Don:
I don't have any accurate advise on how to tell the difference....


Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: TIMBEAL] #16574 08/16/08 01:48 AM
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Dave Shepard Offline
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I believe the sash saw at Old Sturbridge Village movies at a 90 degree angle to the log, but the teeth have a little "lead" so they each do a little bit of the work.


Interesting discovery this evening. In the Visser book, there is a picture of a sash sawn board. This looks just like the boards I am calling sash/up and down milled. There is also a picture of what he is referring to as band sawn, with a much more pronounced saw mark. I beg to differ. I saw a two foot long board that started out looking like the sash sawn, and gradually progressed to looking like the picture he is calling bandsawn. These boards were salvaged from an early 1800's barn. I'll have to ask again, but I believe Jack Sobon dated the older half around 1820.


Dave


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Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: Dave Shepard] #16577 08/16/08 11:52 AM
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Will Truax Offline
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Don’t know if there is a discernable difference between the two, the stroke varied enough with the wood itself. Here’s a window on that world –

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Sy5TAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom#PPP1,M1

Bob might be the one to ask, he was a regular poster here (bandwith issues I think) and runs Taylor Mill. I used to take the kids down regularly ( when they were small and we lived in that part of the State ) to watch it run. Something worth the seeing !

http://www.dred.state.nh.us/divisions/forestandlands/reference/documents/TaylorMillBrochure.pdf


Here’s another worthy mill project coming together – http://www.hatchmill.org/

Keep your eye on the lower vid, some familiar faces will flicker by




"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: Will Truax] #16579 08/16/08 10:11 PM
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OurBarns1 Offline OP
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Thanks folks.

I guess it's tough to tell between the two: band and sash. My guess is it would be damn near impossible to tell between sash and muley... they're basically the same saw with a few distinct differences in their operation.

Will, thanks for the links. Hatch Mill is great. As is that little video at the bottom.

Tim:
I would be interested in that stuff you have on the ships, etc. All the straight saw marks I've ever seen have been 90-degrees.


A guy at the old mill I visited was saying that the spacing between the marks is how you can tell between sash and band sawn. Band marks are closer together... but it sounds like there were probably many variations of both types of saws: feed rate and tpi and strokes/revolutions per minute, etc.

So who really could say?? A fast sash could likely produce stuff that probably looked the same as a slow band...








Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: OurBarns1] #16620 08/20/08 01:25 AM
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northern hewer Offline
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Hi everyone on this thread:

Sorry for coming in late to comment but I just noticed this topic.

I have extensive experience in regards to muley sawn, versus band sawn marks as far as true restoration practices are concerned.

Looking directly at the face of a Muley sawn board or plank, you will notice that the tooth marks are not at a true right angle to the sawing plane.

There is a reason for this--the Muley blade which is approx 72" in length is purposely leading ahead at the Upper end by approx. 1/2". This lead is needed because the blade as it comes upwards on its journey lifts clear of the cut and gives room for the log to move ahead which is happening simotaneously with the motion of the blade.

When you look at the face of a band sawn board it is almost unanimously at a right angle and has a finer cut due to the fine teeth. The muley blade has teeth 2" in length and at 2.25" spacings.

As noted above the log passing through a band mill at high speed will create a similar tooth pattern maybe 2" apart, whereas the muley mill the similar marks will be only 1/2" apart, this would be one stroke of the blade, and the log cannot advance anymore than the blade is advanced or purposely leaned at the upper end.

I don't knopw if any of this makes any sense but I hope so.

Bandsawn lumber is the next best thing that can be used in place of muley sawn lumber for many restorations, at UCV we were lucky to have approx 20000 bd feet of pine lumber sawn each year that is dedicated to restoration work there.

I have seen original muley sawn lumber that was sawn in mills that advanced their blades more than 1/2" at the upper end, the saw left tooth marks that were 3/4" in spacings.

Good tpic

NH

Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: northern hewer] #16629 08/20/08 08:37 PM
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OurBarns1 Offline OP
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Thanks NH!

Better late than never espec. when it's helpful. I'll have to ask folks at that sash mill if the blade is usually 90 degrees or not. I assumed sash saws were 90 deg. But the way you speak of advancing the log in muley, which is also done in sash, has me wondering.


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: OurBarns1] #16638 08/21/08 01:39 AM
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Hi Don and others:

The early water powered Sash saw mills predated the muley mills, which was a later refinement of vertical blade sawing technology.

Muley blades were manufactured from saw steel that was thick enough (about 5\16" by 12" in width) that the requirement for a sash was done away with.

I believe you will find out that the sash saw mill's blade and associated guides had to have the same lead on the upper end of the sawing apparatus as the muley mill's blade and associated guides needed to accomodate the forward motion of the log on the up stroke of the sawing motion.

Please get back to us with an answer from the sawyers that you are associated with I am interested in what they might have to say on the subject.

NH

Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: northern hewer] #16644 08/21/08 08:37 PM
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NH:

I will ask them about saw blade angle. I'm going to be there this weekend in fact.

Angle would be an easy way to tell the difference between band and sash/muley sawn boards.

That's interesting that you say the muley saws were newer innovations from sash. From my reading on the subject, a more efficient method was what the industry always strived for. A fat blade on a muley would waste alot of log. But perhaps it was more reliable than its thinner sash cousin...less breakage, downtime, etc.

One book talks about band being preferred over sash because of the waste issue. Though sash blades was thinner than muley, it wasn't as thin as band...

What's your take on that?

Thanks for the info!


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: OurBarns1] #16659 08/27/08 01:58 AM
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Bob Spoerl Offline
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Great pictures and sight I must get to.
As Will noted I run Taylor Mill, a water powered up and down sawmill in Derry NH. I run it ever 2nd and 4th Sat 10:00- 3:00
Memorial Day to Oct.
Plenty of water this year!
My experience is with this mill only.
The marks were very pronounced when I started working at the mill, the set was achieved using a lever set. I notice large variations in the steel when setting the teeth so I made a large saw spider (gage). It now cuts with a smoothness similar to a modern band saw....however the spacing of the marks is much wider. Also most of the mills return the carriage with the blade running so there is another set of marks at a different spacing overlaying the cut marks. As part of our interpretation here at the mill we can point to, hewn timbers, vertically sawn timbers, circular sawn timbers and boards and modern band saw.
There were some mentions about the slight angle of the blade, I have this one set about a 1/4 inch forward at the top to lessen the drag on the blade as it goes up....however the 1/4 advance of the carriage only occurs on the down stroke.
I believe they may have swedged the teeth on earlier saws, thus creating a different look to the blade marks.
If anyone has a spare blade 6'5" blade for a mill I would be happy to do some research and share it at a conference.

Bob

Re: Old Sash-Saw Mill [Re: Bob Spoerl] #16662 08/27/08 11:45 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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So, my take is there isn't a big enough difference between the sash and muley saws, are they more aptly called vertically sawn? I am always mixing my dates up and it would be great if someone would post the dates sash and muley saws first arrived, circ. saw and large band saws as well. I have seen the dates before, just need a reminder, it will sink in. Tim

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