Tim:

My guess is the time periods that these different saw types were in use overlapped each other to quite an extent, making it all the more frustrating to try to date stuff. I mean, the mill I visited that is undergoing restoration, actually operated regularly as a sash mill until 1962!

That's unheard of from what I understand. Not 1862, but 1962! It began cutting in the late 1840s.

This book (I love this book!) gives a good overview of types/dates, but the pictures might be misleading.

For New England, it says:

Sash: pre-1850
Bandsawn: later 19th century
Circular sawn: mid to late 19th century

http://books.google.com/books?id=2W1Lq_n...VQid4wxmCu0kU3Q

Of course, the dates should probably be coinsidered as a general guideline.

Bob,

I'd like to see what you have going on down there too. I can take you to this mill If you'd like.

The sash is not operating. In fact, they are in the very early stages of putting it back together. You could likely give them some advice.

I was there this past weekend and asked about the blade angle. You said yours is canted ahead 1/4 inch... Is this something you came up with as you refined things or was it standard practice for a sash saw? The guy I spoke to said their mill's blade was 90 degrees to the log... but I didn't get to speak to the "real deal." One guy worked there as a young man and is related to the man that actually ran it years ago. He's the one I need to ask to be sure.

But he's not answering his phone at the momment.

Hi Don:

I would just like to correct you, the Muley saw mill's blade that we operate is canted ahead on the top end by 1\2" not 1\4" as you mention. This is important if you are really working thye mill at any speed at all. If you are really pushing things ahead then you need to advance the top of the blade by 3\4" of an inch or more, by 1\2" is the usual amount of advance.

there are other adjustments that are critical, for instance the blade will need to be toed slightly away from the cutting line to account for the thrust against it during the cutting process. The thrust will bring it back into line and it will cut straight. Without the knowledge of proper adjustment it would be very difficult to cut straight, and know when the blade is wandering from poor adjustments or teeth that are dull on one or both sides.

NH

Hello NH:

Please re-read up thread a bit... page 2. I was actually responding to Bob Spoerl's post. It was he who mentioned the 1/4 inch cant that he uses on his saw:

There were some mentions about the slight angle of the blade, I have this one set about a 1/4 inch forward at the top to lessen the drag on the blade as it goes up....however the 1/4 advance of the carriage only occurs on the down stroke.

At any rate, I finally spoke to a seasoned sawyer who actually worked at the sash mill I began this thread with. I asked him about blade angle. He says the sash was straight up and down, 90 degrees to the log/carriage.

I mentioned about another sash operator (Bob) using the 1/4 inch cant/ angle at the blade's top, to which he thought that was the operator's own particular situation. On most of the sash saws that he knew, the blade was always straight up and down.

This guy is a seasoned sawyer in his mid-seventies who has worked in the industry and has an amazing collection of old 19th century lumber making machinery. He knows his baloney, if you know what I mean. He's been thoroughly interviewed by some folks who are writing a book about the old mill.

That bit about the muley being set off to counter thrust is interesting. All this old saw stuff is pretty interesting... as far as telling between sash/muley and band sawn lumber goes, it looks like you just can't be sure.

I'd like to be present for an experiment where each type could be cut, inspected and then labled... maybe that way we could know how to tell between them. If anyone knows of such a facility (with all or two types: sash, muley and band, please let me know!)

My understanding...
up and downs....1700- 1860s
muley ......1850-1860s
Circular .....1860- now
Band saw .....? replacing circular

However seeing as there are little private mills of all sorts don't rely heavily on the saw marks to date a building. Our mill has hewn posts, some vertical sawn main beams, some circular sawn timbers and roof deck (all built in 1950s)

I think one of the main differences with the muley was that the saw was outside the carriage, so the boards could be cut of and the carriage reset to cut the next one off, ....our up and down has to be reset for each cut manually.
Circular was MUCH faster...thus replaced up and down style
Band saws have a smaller kerf (less waste) and can be run faster thus replacing circular.

Hi

I just went to the Patten Lumberman's Museum in Patten, Maine, whichdoes not have a vertical saw, but they do have an excellent collection of tools, equipment, buildings, and information.
http://www.lumbermensmuseum.org/

One thing I got out of the visit was a free handout with a chronology of lumbering in Maine, some of which I will write below. I am going to stray a little from the topic, but not too far:

1634 First water powered Sawmill in Maine
1802 Planer pantent applied for
1814 circular saw patented but not in general use [My understanding is the circular saw was invented in 1777 in England though there could have been a paralell invention by the Shakers in America.]
1820 the first steam powered mill in Bath, Maine
1850 circular saw put into common use, gang saw introduced [this seems late to me]
1846 There were 1500 sawmills in Maine.
1858 Joseph Peavey invented the Peavy Cantdog, an improvement over the swing dingle or swinging bitch as it was sometimes called [a bitch is a log dog with tines rotated 90 degrees from each other]
1890-1900 cross cut saws were introduced for cutting down as well as cutting up. They had been patented in 1861 by Canadian Jerome Dietrich.
1976 Last log drive in Maine on the Kennebec River

Thank God for Google books. Here is a book which shows later types of saws published in 1905. http://books.google.com/books?id=Q6sJAAA...try+and+joinery

I will add that part of the sawmill legacy is still with us in that there are still deposits of sawdust on river bottoms such as the Damariscotta River.

There have been an estimated 160 tide mills of all sorts along Maine's coast and a few wind mills such as in Port Clyde.

Something to keep in mind is that the circular saw needed more power (more water) so they were not an option everywere. Also, smaller circular saws were used to resaw flitches, deals, etc. even in mills with vertical saws so look for old lumber with the narrow dimension circular sawn and the wide dimension vertically sawn.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Is it possible to download this whole book from Goggle as a *.pdf file or does one have to view this on line from one's own personal web library ?

I am a little confused. Can you help me please.

Regards

ken Hume

Ken, you should be able to download a pdf of any of the public domain Google books. If your browser behaves like mine, click the link to the book, the window is split into two panes, the body of the book on the left and an information pane on the right, at the top of information pane is a link to download the book. Viewing of the book should be much easier from a download than from a website with continuing page calls.

Hi everyone: great topic sure generating alot of interest and information.

As I read all the posts I truly believe that no one answer is correct for any one situation or area of North america.

One has to realize that technology did not travel fast in those years, the old millwrights resisted change the same as today in many areas of our society.

I rtemeber quite well growing up in Ontario Canada, where tractors and horses for quite anumber of years operated side by side, usually until a new generation came along or strict regulations created an immediate need for change.

From what I have found out in my research was that circular saws were invented in England around 1800 that corresponds quite well with the information above.

What was a big factor was the power required to drive them and keep them up to a minimum operating speed under load. Large water turbines of upwards of 40 to 50 hp were in operation and could drive them but was not always available in a country setting, at least here in (most) of rural Ontario.

Along came the portable Steam engine which created the power supply in the country setting, now all that was needed was a person with the money and drive to put this all to work.

Around my area in the 1867 census one steam powered saw mill was in operation. With this information, and the fact that hundreds of single blade mills were still in operation in the same area and would continue to cut for many more years, made dating historic structures alittle easier.

Remember that muley mills or sash mills could cut no longer than 20 foot logs this governed by the length of the saw frames, and the length of the sawmill building itself. The blade was usually installed in the centre of the sawmill meaning that the whole log if it was 20 feet in legth would rest on a saw frame of about 24 feet beginning its journey by the blade. It also had to travel completely by the blade so it needed at least 24 feet on the opposite side.

In our mill the saw frame would actually advance through an opening in the wall for a short distance to complete the cut, and be suspended in open air.

It was this period that sawn, hewn, and circular sawn lumber could be present in the same structure, around here that could have happened after 1867, but not before.

Long top plates continued to be hewn until late 1800's (around here), and then gradually the long hewn plates gave away to short timbers scarfed together.

Sort of confusing to many readers I am sure NH

Ken, I hope Roger answered your question. I like the search feature in Google books when I am looking for a specific word, but I read books from the downloaded pdf on my computer.

NH, I have seen 36' sawn beams. A house I salvaged had common purlins hewn on the visible sides with the top surface vertically sawn. After the purlins were off of the building I noticed two of them were bookmatched...Someone had hewn a 5"x7" then it was slit down the middle and used as full length common purlins. There must have been a few mills which could cut 40', though as you say, long sills and plates were often hewn, even when every other piece of lumber in the building was sawn.

Jim