FWIW, in one local roof system from the early 1850's there are purlin plate and straining beam timbers around 20' long that were hewn on 2 adjacent faces and up and down sawn on the other 2 faces. In fact in these roof trusses, the only timbers not showing that were the 40' bottom chords which were hewn and the small section braces and common rafters which were completely sawn.

I can only guess they hewed them square first in order for them to fit on the sawmill -- the quarter sections were around 7 3/4" square, so they were hewing something like 16x16 timbers to resaw for this roof system. I can imagine that the saw may not have had much more capacity than 16". Any comment??

I agree with Tim that it is fairly easy to distinguish between up and down sawn and pit sawn.

Band technology didn't appear in this area until the mid 20th century. For some reason I thought it was only widely used in the really big Pacific northwest mills in the last decades of the 19th century.

Hi Timbeal and others

Where is the limit---good question, and why the limit

Well for starters as I mentioned previously moving (saw)logs longer than 20 feet would have been quite a chore in the mid 1800s so that is one impediment, I do realize that longer logs were moved but other methods were used such as hewing right in the forest and then skidding to the site

Muley mills could cut fairly large timber upwards of 36 inches some slightly larger.

The vertical blades always remained stationary in the early mills with the logs passing by the blade note Oliver Evans early works on mills.

the log frame that supports the timber during sawing was stretched to 20 feet to accomodate long logs, anything longer created a problem during the sawing process due to the wip of the timber on the down stroke of the saw, even at 20 feet at times one needed to support the log near the centre during the final 3 or 4 cuts to take out the deflection which gradually increases as the saw log devreases in cross section.

I hope you enjoy this exchange of ideas as much as I do

NH

As for long length logs, I have recovered river logs locally that were 36'. I am sure there are more. They were cut with an axe on the butts. I hauled them, a mixture of lengths, home on a 16' trailer, the 36' stick dragged on the road the whole way and was flattened on the tip. It now resides in my mill building as part of a 60' top plate.

I have never seen a up and down saw in full production. Only at a reduced speed at Kings Landing in New Brunswick, CA. I should visit Leonards Mills in Old Town, I have never been.

It is a great exchange, I want to know where these long sawn members come from and how. Tim

Hi Tim and others:

I also visited Kings Landing in NB, it is an early true Sash (frame) Saw but the kicker here is that it is powered by an overshot water wheel which as most probably realizes turns at a very low RPM maybe 6 RPM at top speed.

What entranced me at the time was the vibration that runs through the mill framing when the saw is in motion. This was mainly due to the gearing that was necessary to bring up the end speed to 40 or 50 revolutions which would be a slow sawing speed or just above a slow idle.

This type of equipment to work properly needs momentum, and horsepower is generated conversely with the momentum and spinning of the large mill parts. In Grist milling the spinning of the grinding stones act as flywheels, and in woolen mills actual heavy castflywheels were installed to create a steady flow of power and to help the machinery pass by difficult milling sequences.

I came away from the mill at King's landing wishing that the staff there would speed up the equipment to a proper running speed and then shut down for a brief period. Their slow operating speed created an extreme strain on the gearing and no doubt unnecessary wear on the pinion gears that were in the gear train sequences.

Our mill at UCV is powered by a small barrel wheel that produces about 7 horsepower maximum from about 2000 gallons of water usage per minute at near full open operating speed which is about 100 RPM. here are no gears employed, each revolution of the barrel wheel creates one stroke of the saw blade. This mill technology is explained quite well in Oliver Evans treatise on Milling (early 1800,s).

One thing that I am sure of is your home base being in Maine no doubt had access to new technology, larger mills, longer blades, and no doubt circular saws much earlier that we did in this part of the world, we did catchup in that regard.

I really would have to examine these timbers very closely, and then if in fact the saw marks appear to have been made with a Muley saw blade be it free standing or Sash type delve into the local early census records to see what mills were in the region at that time.

I hope this helps you out somewhat, but as you see like a mystery novel more clues are necessary to try and solve the questions at hand

NH

NH, the odd thing about the Machias area is I don't see any old frames sawn via circular saw. I think they switched right to the large band. By the time they switched most building was going to balloon framing. I haven't had the time to check into it in any detail. I have commented on the high number of tidal mills along the coast, there is evidence of them on many coastal streams right at the tide line. They moved them as the timber was depleted. Have you seen the Stump to Ship video? Tim

I am certain the saw marks on the hewn/sawn purlin I mentioned previously were mill sawn. I do not blame anyone for questioning the unusual.

I will pay more attention to the length of sawn timbers I see. I know the circular saw at the water-powered mill on Sanborn pond in New Nampshire can cut 40 feet, but not comfortably: the log would need to be perfectly centered on the carrage which would likely add time to the sawing process. Also, the sawyer commented on how much harder getting a 40 foot log out of the pond as compared to even a 36 foot log.

The book "Early Loggers and the Sawmill" has several photos of large logs being hewn into cants where they fell. The explination is that more timber could be fitted into the hold of a ship if it was squared. One of the photos is of four "choppers" standing on a log "prepairing the tree for the hewers". The choppers had it hewn pretty smooth with there felling axes.

Another reason to hew logs square is they were also floated in "cribs" or assemblies of rafts to a distant destination by a steam tug boat. The raftsmen lived on the raft during shipment, including cooking over a fire built on a sand pile on top of the timbers.

The reason is not so clear for the purlins I mentioned since they probably were not shipped too far or floated in a raft. There were very wayney which I know are not too hard to hew poles just taking off a few inches of wood. This house was located right next to a sawmill.

Jim

Hi Jim:

You sound like a very knowledgeable and reasonable man, and I think that we are getting closer to solving your long purlins which were sawn through the centre.

As I said before we are located in very different locals with very different beginnings.

I just talked recently with a chap that demolished a house very close to Kingston Ontario, and we discussed this long sawn timber p;roblem that we are dealing with. This chap is also very knowledgeable, and during our conversation he commented to me that he had seen 36 foot joists that were absolutely sawn with a muley saw mill. He says that there were facilities near shipbuilding centres that did have mills with vertical blades that were especially set up to cut the long timbers and planks that shipbuilding required--Kingston was one of those areas herein Canada.

I believe that Maine is also associated with shipbuilding correct me if I am wrong.

NH

Ship building all along the coast of Maine, your belief is true.

Here in Machias the first mill was built in 1763, it produced 1,600,000 board feet in its first year. It was a "double saw". My question is what makes a double saw? Two saws sort of like a gang? The mill burned in 1787, rebuilt and named the Phenix. There was multiple saws located on the river in the same location, one was a gang saw. A fire destroyed them all in 1891, along with millions of feet of inventory. I believe that is when they may of switched to the large band saw which lasted till 1920, seen in From Stump to Ship. Tim

I reviewed the thread and may of missed the dates, but I did not find any comments on the date of development of the band saw. I believe there must be a distinction between sash sawn and band sawn. I have included two photos, the first one is of stock I cut on my small 1-1/4" band saw. The second from a older structure, perhaps 1850's or maybe newer. They are both 18" wide, for comparative reasons. The saw marks are not square to the board and both about 3/8"-1/2" apart meaning the feed rates could have been the same. Or the band turned at a different rate and it just appears to be the same. Could the older board have been sash sawn? The lines show square and the drag of a tooth. Anyone have simular photos of sash sawn stock, 18" or so wide? Tim
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Hi Tim, and others:

good photos--- isn't modern technology great when used properly!

To my trained eye it isn't hard to pick out the bite of the Muley's 2" teeth in the second example. You can even see the scratches of the teeth as the saw was moved upward to the top of the stroke

Also as you examine the marks on the second example it is the same tooth that is creating the etching in the board`s surface.

If both of these board were placed beside one another it really wouldn`t be hard to date them

The tooth etching on Muley sawn boards increase as the speed of sawing increases, putting more pressure on the direct line of cut, causing some vibration.

I would say that the rate of cut of this muley sawn board was approaching the maximum rate of 3 eights to 1 half inch per stroke.

At 90 revolution per minute the sawing rate would have been about 4 feet per minute or 3 minutes per 12 foot board.

NH