Hi again:

before I leave tonight I would like to comment on the output of the 1764 mill it seems ot be alittle high even for a gang saw (2) blades

from my experience we cut 20000 bd ft in 4 months (1) blade, this is not running at full production speed so-- if we say double that plus add another 5 months that gives you about 80000 bd ft double that again for another saw and that gives you 160000 bd ft --foodfor thought.

NH

Hi Tim and others:

I would like to comment on your Sept 10 entry especially in regards to the "First mill" that put out 1,600,000 bd ft in 1 year of sawing.


Our mill an authentic 1864 reconstruction with 1 blade and running for 5 months total production was 25000 bd ft.

Now if you calculate in that it probably was running slower than in the 1800's lets say we double that to 50000 bd ft.

Now they ran the mill approx 10 months then so we double that again to 100000 bd ft

now we add another blade and we double that again to 200000 bd ft

If they ran the mill 24 hrs a day we could multiply that by 3 or 600,000 bd ft

They could have been sawing already squared timber saving the squaring up process which would increase production damatically, and sawing timber long in length and in cross section (lets say no less tan 12" square) I think that we would be approaching their output

In retrospect I believe that a 2 blade Muley mill in good shape and all machinery in new condition--new blades, good head of water, a 20 foot saw frame, 3 shifts of men, would give it a run for their money, 12" or preferrably larger--18" to 24" already squared timber would put you to that production but it would be a monumental effort no doubt

NH

NH, I picked this info up while on a tour of Machias, I will visit with the tour guide to get the facts straight. I thought the numbers were high too, but she was confident of them. The mills set up in the early 1900's were abandoned, there was even an electrical company, they were sold. The new owner carted all the info, documentation and history to unknown locations. The local historical society is left with very little hard evidence, some but not a lot. Tim

Hi tim:

that is what I like about you your honesty and the will to look deeply into facts.

NH

Hi guys:

NH's experience w/ old sawing production is a good reference. But as far as board feet goes, who's to say what that mill Tim refered to actually sawed. It could have been beams and planks in addition to "boarding."

As we know, a 1 x 12 board 16 feet long is 16 bf. But an 8 x 8 beam that same length comprises 56 bf (over 3 times the bf but w/ much less sawing)... So you produce more bf w/ less passes when sawing beams and planks.

Just something to consider in estimating.

And I think Tim's commitment to advancing the craft is pretty strong, too.

Don, an 8x8x16/12=85.33 board feet.

I was just thinking, 1,600,000 board feet is a lot of wood. The double saw had to saw 50 of those 8x8's each day. Did the cold have any effect on how the mills operated could they of run in the winter? NH, did you comment on the winter? If they had shut down for water reasons they may have taken to hewing and once the water was back on those cants could of been sawn. Part of the hewn/sawn stock question.

I just looked for a picture of the Bad Little Falls but couldn't find one. I will take a new one. Still wanting ask the question to the right person in town on the large Number of BF. Tim

OK, so the world now knows math is not my strong suit.
thanks alot, Tim!

But you reinforce my point. There's much more board feet in timber than in boards, so mills could saw alot of bf in a hurry that way.

As far as winter goes, the sash mill I recently visited (at the top of this thread) ran year-round.... They used an "undershot" wheel. Not a large diameter wheel like a gristmill, but a long and small diameter wheel (like 16 inches). The water flowed under the wheel.

The entire thing stayed submerged and thus ice-free. The folks there said if you wanted alot of power you just built a longer wheel.

So some of these old mills could run regardless of season

Hi everyone:

Well this thread is really generating alot of good comraderie comments (english wasn't my best subject back when I went to SS#10)

All water turbines worked below water level but around here during the coldest part of the year ice flows would jam the trash gates and usually curtail operations at least sporatically if not indefinitely for a period of 2 to 3 months.

Just remember that water wheels even though they are submerged would send the power transmission upwards or sideways through a pressure gland, and it would be at these spots that freezing problems would develop big time.

I sort of take to task the undershot waterwheel that is submerged. I have had the opportunity to study extensively waterwheels of all different varieties, and undershot wheels had to be situated above the level of the tailraces for them to operate. This also goes for overshot wheels and breast wheels, . Turbines had to be submerged but to work operate properly they were contained in a pressure or open box, and also had to be above the level of the tailrace. The later models had venturie tubes of various lengths to deliver the spent water in a controlled manner down to the tailrace, in doing so the weight of the falling water created a pull on the wheel increasing the horsepower.

The 16" "undershot wheel" reference I believe refers to the width of the buckets on the undershot wheel, someone correct me if I am wrong

For sure if the mill was sawing timber stock it would kick up the stats considerably, and could have been part of the equation.


NH

I had some logs soaking in a river near my house, I would use my pulp loader to pick them out. I had to bust them out of 6" of ice one December. My guess is they shut down. Don, the mill mentioned at the start ran in the winter. Would the send logs out on the ice, how did they get the logs to the mill.

As time progressed the tree were located further and further from the mill. The river was the highway for the logs. No logs were moving during the winter. The men were all out cutting as well. Season work. How about the Summer and low water?

Tim

Actually, the mill here ran much longer than what we think of as the typical 19th-century mill, which relied on the river as a highway. You may remember it sawed its last board in 1962--via sash saw no less! 1962! We can't frame this mill in a "traditional mode."

They had an extensive network of buildings to store raw and finished wood. An old picture shows logs stacked in row upon row on land. In the early days they pulled them in from the river and millpond, but as the years ticked into the 20th century, they must have had logs delivered by truck.

I don't know all the particulars of course, but the fact this mill ran so late into the modern day is practicaly unheard of. And it's a testament to its effeciency.

Also, it likely ran so long because its operator lived a long life. He was cutting (or at least overseeing) things here in his early 90s!

NH, you raise good points about free-ups on the apparatus linking the submerged wheel to the gearworks/pulleys above...I would guess that must have been an issue... but the folks here were quite proud to state that what helped this mill run so long into the 20th century was the fact it could run uninterupped in winter (keeping it profitable, etc).

How they competed, stayed viable against the modern mills is a mystery indeed.