I wonder if someone with experience or perhaps disassembles barns for a living could give me an idea of the equipment necessary to go about such a project with efficiency. I have three people in my area that would be willing to part with an old barn on their property for free or very little money, but before taking on such projects, I need to research the extent at which I would need to invest in equipment. As of now I am thinking crane rental and operator, trailer rental, transportation of trailer, storage site for trailer, replacement of rotten timbers, hand and power tools to remove boarding, pegs, and disassemble joints, obviously some laborers to facilitate faster disassembly, in order to reduce crane fees. Oh yeah, a lot of long ladders, and a whole lot of cleanup, probably with dumpster rental and removal expense as well.. Any helplful ideas from experienced barn movers would be appreciated.

sounds like you're on the right track. Can be faster/cheaper hire an excavator to dig the unwanted part of the barn into the ground if the person who owns the barn is willing.

I would say it is the reversal of building new. Block and tackle is cheap, though more time is involved, and it comes with a learning curve. Burn pile? There is the factor of how neat one must be. Are you just looking at the frame or the add ons as well, boarding, trim, flooring and misc. other stuff? Take your time and do what need to be done.

Tim

Remember to have insurance, as required to protect you, the sellers while you are on their property, any and all workers, your vehicles, tools and equipment, including rentals.
Have a plan, keep the site organized and clean as you progress. SAFETY FIRST. The more experienced your team and how well you communicate will have very positive influence on your safety and efficiency.
I like a big all-terrain forklift w extendable boom. If barn is very tall a crane may be much better for the high-up timbers. You don't want the crane operator waiting idle while one or two guys are struggling with some ornery tight pegs. Crane time is very expensive.
I won't say good luck 'cause luck only has to do with the weather. Be smart, be organized, be safe. Nothing suceeds like success.
Steve

Beside what everybody else has already said, a very important thing is to be very wary of nails. The feet seem very prone to pick these up. Look for steel insoles or buy Vietnam jungle boots.

Hi TB and others:

Just a thought and point of view on this subject

Be sure to assess the state of the structural timbers before you even think forward to another level

If the structure has rotten parts dismantling will be a whole lot riskier undertaking, because as you remove the wood pins to insert temporary metal fasteners the joint may not like being loosened up and may fall apart or fail as you do the sequential removal further down the road

definitely carry good insurance coverage you never know where things may go as you move forward with the project.

make sure that you have an agreement in writing that covers as many controversal aspects of the removal and cleanup, also check with the local fire deptartment, and municipal offices to see what they have to say, you may need their input.

Good luck and be careful

NH

It looks like you have gotten some great advice overall, from other members, the only thing I would add is perhaps contacting somebody in person that does this for a living. Take your time, plan, and check everything twice, if you have second thoughts about something you probably shouldn’t do it. Good luck and please be safe.

Jay

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. Thinking in terms of building new ,but backwards, I just assumed most frames are being raised with a crane, so... Waccabuc, you find on the medium size barns that the crane is unnecessary?NH, what are the temporary metal fasteners, drift pins? Do you know of a source of these?Timbeal, when you say block and tackle, do you mean in conjunction with gin pole? I thought about gin pole assistance, as I read in Richard Babcock's book that he and Gramp disassembled barns with just a gin pole and the two of them.!Its a possibility but it sure seems that it would take much more time and possibly compromise safety even more. Thanks again,tb

There’s not much in the way of special tooling outside of normal kit that you need, a slide hammer set up to pull pegs (search the forum for old posts) and good demo bars are important, this is one I’ll highly recommend –

Scroll down for the graphic - http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/64306.html

What you do invest in you’ll use again, an investment in tooling always pays dividends.

All that you thought of, but for maybe the big pile of ladders. Think renting an RT snorkel lift from the same outfit you get the telehandler that was not on your list, both provide added safety and help minimize expensive labor. Then yes, the rolloff and the list goes on…

As suggested above, check with your carrier as to your coverage on demo and dismantling.

Don’t do this because you think you’ll be saving buuka bucks - Free isn’t free, it isn’t even cheap. Unless – the frame is in exceptionally good shape, the design makes it especially easy to disassemble ( like say, you can fly the roof and the plates off as a unit and disassemble on some low cribs with less expense and risk, then strip temp bracing and lay the bents down and minimize crane time to a day ) It just happens to be near the right size and has no head room issues, the lay of the land cooperates…

The planets just rarely align, so, just so.

It is almost always cheaper to frame new. There is certainly less dirt, planning and headaches

Do do it, if something about the frame just grabs you –

Or, if you know the owner is determined to be rid of it ( I’ll never understand why folks buy historic properties when they don’t really want one ) and will part it out, or neglect it till it rots, and you can find a client and a new home for it.

Or, if you think it might be something you do again in the future...

As has been said, do think it thoroughly through, before and during, and be safe.

Best with it

Thank you Will. The last reason might be my most compelling. I feel that most of these barns were built with almost extinct craftsmanship(in regards to hand hewing and attention to detail)and they were built from truly extinct primeval forest that our only chance to witness the beauty of these ancient trees is in these timbers, with the axe mostly, coercing the trees gracefully into their next shape. Basically I would only go about this if it were my intention to do more than one of them. I feel there is a duty to preserve these barns, but I am not yet sure it is a duty intended for me. I am not sure what the snorkel lift or telehandler is? Is it the forklift or cherrypicker trucks with the basket, that they use for tree work? Did you think ladders were not really necessary? Thanks again. tb

TB –

Ladders, vertical siding, its application and removal, does lend itself to leapfrogging ladders. I would have a 16’, and a 20’ for the low stuff and the eave walls, but that’s about it.

Labor is the most expensive component of any job, minimizing it with mechanization just makes sense. Besides frame dismantling is hard, dirty, and dangerous work, and anything that removes some of the risk and some of the drudgery is worth the doing.

Snorkel / Man Lift - http://www.ur.com/index.php/equipment/rental/browse/view/?category=Aerial+Lifts&id=203

Telehandler / Shooting Boom Forklift – http://www.ur.com/index.php/equipment/rental/browse/view/?category=Forklifts+%26+Material+Handling&id=1846&page=3

I tend to rent for all my sitework, and my own lift stays home in the timberyard, an insurance and convenience driven decision.

But now when the cyclical economy is at low ebb, is the time to buy, the used market is glutted like it hasn’t been since the early 90’s. Look what the things are trading for nowabouts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TEREX-SS636-TELEHANDLER-REACH-FORKLIFT-TELESCOPIC-LULL_W0QQitemZ140289762282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Lifts?hash=item140289762282&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1308|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

And hewing while uncommon is not extinct, not even here in the first world (still common in the third) I felled and hewed a few 32 ‘s here in my woodlot for a restoration this past summer.

But I know what you mean, that sentiment is part of why I split my time between cutting new frames and restoring old ones, learning from them, and through them, from those that we follow. Completing the circle, literally seeing and feeling myself as part of a continuum, and all that ho-hum.

Watching a joint come apart that some nameless predecessor watched go together two centuries before, is a cheap thrill I’ll heartily recommend.

Will, I couldn't agree more with your comments. Cheap thrill, free for the taking, it's the work up to that point that makes you grunt. As I mentioned earlier, the reversal of new buildings, everything is backward.

The Shooting Boom Forklift is an up grade I must wait for. This is what I am looking at. It would replace two pieces of equipment, the L-35 tractor and its attachments, and my old 6,000 pound fork lift. Someday, if the world holds together.
http://www.bobcat.com/versahandler/compare_models/v417 Anyone ever used one of these? I am intrigued by the attachments. Does any other manufactures have the attachment options?

Tim

Tim –

Didn’t even know Bobcat made a line of compact Telehandlers, and I own one of their skidsteers, and pass by the dealership with some regularity, it’s between here and Concord.

I see these more often - http://promo.jlg.com//jlg/files/JLG_Compact_Tele_Bro.pdf

Even older Telehandlers have attachment options, at least a minimum of buckets and truss booms / jibs, newer ones have something more of a smorgasbord –

www.jlg.com/en-US/Component.Display.html?RefId=6501e56b-d8e3-4918-a810-a3cebbeed853

Though the much more readily available rental options (rented everywhere) with Bobcats “universal quick attach” system would make that coupling system a handy feature. I’ve even got a quick attach plate set up with hydraulic snow plow which I’m pretty happy about right now with the suddenly waist high snowbanks.

Only an educated guess, but I suspect that the smaller market share these compact models have will see them hold their value a little better than the more common size machines. I’d think, in the coming year, you’ll be able to buy a full size version for pretty much the same money.

One thing I would add for you to consider is to find a company who takes down barns and restores them a see if you can go over there one day and either help out or watch how it's done so you can learn what it's all about.....

Thanks Will,Tim,and Jim. Really helpful information for someone considering this type of project. It sounds like a perfect idea to join in on another that is doing a barn save, but perhaps due to the economy being in a recession, I have tried to contact every local t.framer,restorer that I know of in the area and nobody seems to be doing much work. Hopefully the economy picks up and re-employs. This is one reason that I have reconsidered saving a barn. Because barns have been offered to me and I have not been able to find new builds. I thought,if it were financially smart, then it might be a perfect way to use the time of unemployment. As far as the labor, I would try to do as much of it myself, as time would be plentiful. and rent the machinery for the parts that are the most difficult and dangerous, and try to plan ahead so that the machinery would be used efficiently and timely. I thought, a helper and myself,using ladders and staging, could handle most, if not all, of the internal cleanup,roofing,roof boarding, rafters,siding and hardware-doors-windows,etc..., and then bring in the heavy equipment for the plates, to lower the bents and disassemble them on the ground,and have the equipment stack them on a trailer. Probably good to have at least 4 or 5 guys on the day or two of equipment rental. Then go back to two or solo for the finish of loading siding, boarding,hardware, accessories, smaller members on trailer, and then subsequent cleanup. Probably good to get a dumpster as well. Also consider what to do with likely stone foudation and the bit empty site leftover. Possibly ,if good quality,load the stone to transport to new site. Might have to bring in machinery to restore the site a bit with soil or fill. Anyway, this is how I would go about it, but that is why I am trying to get input, because I have literally no experience, just methodical planning. Does it sound like it could work, if time allowed, or am I missing some crucial details? thanks again for all of the input. sincerely, tb

You might have to consider if the barn is painted, is it lead paint......

I believe it was perhaps creosoted and red(probably lead) painted, as it has a dark blackish stain look under a flaking red paint. It is an old barn, probably early to mid 1800s . Is this going to be a concern? I thought lead paint would be pretty harmless unless ingested, is this incorrect? Or is the concern that the paint chips need to be disposed of properly. tb

The first concern is you breathing in dust of lead paint while disassembling the building. This could be bad for you and your worker/helpers. I'm not sure you may have to do some research on this.
The next concern is if the boards are painted with lead paint can you just throw them into a dumpster and dispose of them? Will the dumpster company take away wood that has lead paint on them? You may need to research this as well.
If the dumpster company can't take boards that are painted with lead paint what are you going to do with them? You probably shouldn't just burn them as this releases the lead paint into the environment. And it probably isn't allowed.


And if you're restoring this barn to be used as something other than a barn, will lead painted boards/timbers be ok in that application?

If this barn is to be converted into a house then I'm sure you can't use lead painted boards/timbers that are exposed to the interior. Research again maybe needed....

And if it is going to be used as a barn, and should this barn house animals will lead painted boards and/or timbers be ok for them?

The reasons I bring this all up is that you don't want to get thousands of dollars invested in equipment and time and then find out you can't do what you want to do because there is lumber/boards/timbers with lead paint on them that can't be used......

If you are not disturbing the questionable lead paint, by sanding or some other disturbing method, why would you be breathing it in. When a board is pried off the building there is no lead paint dust to inhale, maybe large chips which could be spit back out.

Sounds like a conundrum. To reuse the barn or not to reuse the barn. TB, if you don't salvage these structures what is going to happen to them? Would they be bashed down then hauled to a land fill or burned in place? Just a couple of possibilities that would still fall under Jim's quandaries. Neither would satisfy the problem.

Jim, do you have any real life timber frame salvage examples of these issues being dealt with in the past? Or is the lead issue coming from home restoration world where a crew is salvaging and reusing crown molding and fancy trim work inside and outside of a house? Lots of dust involved there. How real is the concern?

Tim

Definitely a lot to be concerned with there. I do think that the health risk is minimal (just chips, but dont eat them for lunch!)if you are just prying off the boards and stacking them, as opposed to sanding them down or burning them, which would definitely release a lot of toxins and probably have code restrictions. I have heard from other barn restorers that the siding and roof planking is often not in good enough condition from weather damage, and that very little of it is reused. Have others found this to be true as well? My hope was to reuse it as clapboarding which would place it on the outside of my building envelope:planking,housewrap,insulation,furring, then the old clapboarding. In the case where the boarding is not useable that would definitely be a concern of how to properly dispose of it, or if one were to try to remove the lead paint and sand it down, say if you wanted to make it into flooring. Anyway, I have appreciated the input on this topic as it seems to be one that most timber framers would consider at one point or another, as there are only two options cutting new frames, or restoring old frames. tb

I am not sure why it seems general practice that the frames are raised with a crane, whereas many barn dismantlers are using the extendable boom forklift(telehandler). Can somebody explain why this is so? Is there a reason why this telhandler can not also raise the bents, frame? It seems to have the load capacity or is it all dependent on the maximum heights needed? It seems to me that the frame should theoretically be able to be raised with the same equipment that it is being dismantled? I also wonder what technique people are generally using for removing pegs,releasing joints? Is there a different technique needed for drawbored pegs? as it seems you could not simply drill through the peg as the offset hole on the tenon would be compromised. Perhaps using a smaller diameter bit to drill through, just enough to get a tool in the space to loosen up the peg to extricate it? tb

I’ve had a Telehandler on every raising I’ve ever done but one, and that exception was driven by an accessibility issue – All the same, they weren’t there to raise the frame, though I have raised both walls and bents with them, and I’ve helped raise entire frames with them – exceptions to the rule though.

Typically have one at most restoration and dismantling (Done it a half dozen times or so, but don’t see myself falling into your category “barn dismantlers”) projects but not necessarily to swing big picks.

A crane has its place, and it’s as much about efficiency as capacity.

Rent by the month, the machine is to spare your backs and save money on labor. Day and even weekly rates are IMO a waste of funds

Not sure I’d look to barn rescue as a way to ride out a recession, unless I had a huge cash reserve and a crew I was trying to keep busy.

Nor would I do even one, without a client who wanted it, unless I had the money to invest (not an insignificant investment) with no need to see a timely return – Or If I had no facility to store it in the dry.

Rent by the month, the machine is to spare your backs and save money on labor. Day and even weekly rates are IMO a waste of funds

Here’s a good thread on peg removal.

http://tfguild.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=2676&page=

For the paint issue, last time I heard a few years ago burning painted wood here carries a $10,000 fine. Our dumpster company will take any of that debris. I imagine disposal rules vary by location. Recycling is good but contaminating is bad, good judgement is required.

You can get lead test kits at many big box stores.

There is an EPA booklet for proper lead handling and yes you do disturb fine dust when disturbing the boards since it has chalked off and settled into cracks over the years. If you gotta work it, work it wet. Carrying it home to, or using it in a structure with young children or those who will carry them is the biggest concern.
www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm

At the Forest Products Labs, Dr Robert Falk has done research on this. His profile and publications page with Email are here;
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/staff/staff--falk-robert.html