http://www.tfguild.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=17850#Post17850

Some suggested moving the above topic to this "TTRAG" section.
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Mills are neat operations in that they encompass many of our interests.

It is too bad the Scribner's Mill did not get the dam approved. In addition to being more historicaly accurate for operational purposes, a dam would have re-created/re-instated a millpond that was there.

You bring up a good point though Ken... that these old mills will not need to run fulltime as before, so other options should be explored w/out giving up entirely.

The news article on the dam denial http://www.sunjournal.com/story/298846-3/OxfordHills/Maine_DEP_denies_Scribners_Mill_permit/ mentioned some alternatives... a penstock, or a water tower, (what exactly is a penstock?). Currently, they use an large belt powered by an old tractor that idles stationary for exhibits, etc.

As far as those legal provisions you mention, like back in your country, I'm guessing those have been lost once a mill ceases operation for any length of time. Plus, you may remember in my original thread on this mill (here)
http://www.tfguild.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=17832#Post17832
that the State of Maine forcibly breached this original dam a few years after the mill ceased. There were 3 mills on this river within 20 miles of each other and Scribner's was in the middle and ran for the longest. The little group bent on restoring things here are pretty fired up, so I bet they'll come up w/ something...probably a compromise, like you suggested, is the only solution.

The mill project you have going in the West Indies sounds different. Tell me, what species of timber is that one built of? Are they able to find indigenous replacement timber or do they have to use other species, etc?

Post some pics.

Hi Don:

I believe that a penstock is similar to what we have at UCV it is an artificial lake that is replenished from the tail water during the night time, and from rains and other sources maybe a small stream.

NH

Out here in my corner of the world, these days anyways, a penstock is the channel or raceway that the water flows in on it's way to the turbines. Also known as a sluice. The headpond feeds the penstocks.

Regarding Joel's observations about NH Mills,

At the risk of starting a new cross pond war it is worth keeping in mind that if a mill was established prior to the Amercian war of independence then its operation would have been subject to English common law. That being the case there would have been no need to incorporate aspects of "rights" into the title deeds since these rights would have been accepted as being defacto common practice being well established under English case law.

I would therefore suggest that pre revolution mill owners might well have more rights over the source of their feedstock water i.e. the river than they currently believe.

I do have a mill book listing these various case law studies with most of them emmanating from the 11th and 12th centuries.

It might be worth a try if you have a sharp lawyer in your preservation group.


Regards

Ken Hume

HI everyone

I believe with a little ingenuity one could divert a small portion of the water upstream from the mill.

Lets say that the river or stream has a vertical drop of 8 feet over 1000 or 1500 feet then a small channel's head could be started at this point and end up at the mill with the proper head height to propel the turbine without disturbing the river or stream's ecosystem, and even create a small ecosystem of its own for birds and aquatics.

The water would then reenter the river just below the mill and continue happily on its way.

In Lowell Massachusets many mills were situated on a single canal that diverted a portion of the river's water well above the town, the mills then were able to access a portion of the water as it passed by for powering their equipment.

Even here where I live, the St Lawrence River before the seaway project, had a canal system that served as an inland water route for shipping, the same canal also powered many generators with excess water flow, and there were many vertical blade mills situated on the mouths of the incoming creeks.

I hope this makes some sense.

NH

Hello, NH:

There is a good amount of head and flow at this mill site, but something tells me even diverting a small channel from the main river would be considered "messing w/ the river" as far as the enviromental authorities are concerned. I would think the mill restoration group would have tried that as a "plan B."

Scribner's Mill is already over a wide canal-like section directly parallel and right next to the main river. But it is not that long... Some water still flows under the mill and rejoins about 50-yards down stream. A long but small diameter "undershot" wheel (set across the river)grabbed the flow, and they want to re-create this. You may remember in the original thread, the whole wheel was submerged, which allowed it to remain ice-free (so they say). Running year-round was what allowed this mill to run as long as it did.

Curious about the "vertical blade mill" you mentioned in your last post. Do you have a picture of this wheel / blade set-up you could post?

An enjoyable discussion...

Hi Don

I believe that I have in previous entries posted pictures of the turbine box referred to by the early millwrights as a barrel wheel or in some cases a rose wheel, the mill building and a good view of the vertical blade, I will though look back and see if I am correct and get back to you.

Right now I am having trouble with retrieving pics from photobucket, I had quite a time a while back with my password, I finally got that sorted out and was able to access my photo album but to date I have not been able to retrieve photos although I have tried many different times.

Are any of you guys having similar problems or is it just with me that the problem seems to exist.

NH

Hi Don:

further to your reply on feb 02 I thank you very much for all the information.

I am quite knowledgeable on many different types of water wheels and turbines but the one you describe sure has me baffled. I am familiar with the undershot types of wheels but any that I have seen were never completely submerged in the manner you descibe.

Turbines are completely submerged and work well only in this state, I have heard of wheels that were placed in fast flowing sections of a river to capture the motivation of the water current itself without the expense of constructing a dam, they were though usually very prone to ice damage in the northern climates.

What you are describing is very interesting and I would very much like to learn more of this particular technology

Thanks again

NH

NH,

This is neat stuff. I'll try to get more info on the undershot wheel. When I met w/ one of the historians/restorers here in August, we talked by the river about the wheel. I took notes (that are somewhere), but I remember him discussing the wheel, that it was a way to harness a lot of the river's energy. Very powerfull. And it could do so in a river / setting that was not particularly deep.

I'll have to check, but I think the "wheel" (really shaped more like a log), was about 12" in diameter and maybe 10' long. If you wanted more power, you just made a longer wheel.

I always pictured waterpowered mills having large diameter and tall, but relatively narrow wheels. This "log style" that grabs a wide swath of current seems much better for power as well as ice concerns...the small diameter allowed it to stay submerged, etc.

I'll see if I can get an old picture or more info from them on this.

Best--