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#18100 - 02/10/09 07:35 PM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: AAK]
MTF Offline
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Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 67
Loc: CT
andy,

yes it is a horse barn..If you like, I can forward you a framing section.

Pete

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#18105 - 02/10/09 08:15 PM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: MTF]
AAK Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 10
That would be great! I sent you a PM with my email address.


Andy

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#18164 - 02/14/09 08:25 PM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: MTF]
Chris Hall Offline

Member

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 168
Loc: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: MTF
below is one we did a few years ago, 36x50. I like a little less in the gambrel, but that's just me.

have fun!

Pete


What does that mean? To which part are you referring?

It's a Mansard roof by the way - the old Dutch word Gambrel refers to a hipped gable roof. I put up a thread a while back on the history of the word 'Gambrel', and described how the term came to be mis-applied. Of course, it's anyone's prerogative to perpetuate that, but then we could also go back to calling 'oranges' correctly too: "noranges". The phrase ' an orange' is an example of "consonant migration", coming originally from 'a norange'.

Mind you, with orange/norange it's pretty easy to see how the change happened - with 'Gambrel' though it's like they took a thing called an 'orange' and started calling it a 'grapefruit'.

Well, so given that habit of speech usually wins out, fat chance of anything changing, so I realize I'm probably just shouting into the wind in terms of "Gambrel" too. Still it's worth trying to get the, er, word out.

Here's a picture from Thomas Corkhill's The Complete Dictionary of Wood (1982):




Edited by Chris Hall (02/14/09 08:41 PM)
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#18166 - 02/15/09 07:06 AM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: Chris Hall]
TIMBEAL Offline
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
Chris, I thought of you when that came up.

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#18169 - 02/15/09 07:32 AM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: TIMBEAL]
Ken Hume Offline
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Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 934
Hi Chris,

All I can see in Mr. Corkhill's illustration is a hipped roof with gablet. This in no way resembles a gambrel roof.

Is this an extract from an American book ?

Regards

Ken Hume
_________________________
Looking back to see the way ahead !

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#18171 - 02/15/09 11:03 AM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: Chris Hall]
MTF Offline
Member

Registered: 09/10/02
Posts: 67
Loc: CT
Originally Posted By: Chris Hall
Originally Posted By: MTF
below is one we did a few years ago, 36x50. I like a little less in the gambrel, but that's just me.

have fun!

Pete


What does that mean? To which part are you referring?


It's a Mansard roof by the way - the old Dutch word Gambrel refers to a hipped gable roof. I put up a thread a while back on the history of the word 'Gambrel', and described how the term came to be mis-applied. Of course, it's anyone's prerogative to perpetuate that, but then we could also go back to calling 'oranges' correctly too: "noranges". The phrase ' an orange' is an example of "consonant migration", coming originally from 'a norange'.

Mind you, with orange/norange it's pretty easy to see how the change happened - with 'Gambrel' though it's like they took a thing called an 'orange' and started calling it a 'grapefruit'.

Well, so given that habit of speech usually wins out, fat chance of anything changing, so I realize I'm probably just shouting into the wind in terms of "Gambrel" too. Still it's worth trying to get the, er, word out.

Here's a picture from Thomas Corkhill's The Complete Dictionary of Wood (1982):




I refer to the lower/steeper shed rafters as the gambrel portion of the roof and the upper roof section as a gable. My understanding is that as a 'whole', that style roof is referened to as a 'gambrel roof'. My original statement was an effort to identify that I do not prefer a large or extremely steep shed or gambrel rafter set. Everyone seems to have a different sense of what looks appropriate in this style roof .

Thanks,
pete

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#18175 - 02/15/09 03:40 PM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: MTF]
Chris Hall Offline

Member

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 168
Loc: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Ken wrote,

"All I can see in Mr. Corkhill's illustration is a hipped roof with gablet. This in no way resembles a gambrel roof."

Is this an extract from an American book
?"

Yes, it is an illustration from an American book, published by Stein and Day, Scarborough House of New York. The Gambrel IS a hipped gable.

Gambrel is a Norman English word, sometimes spelled gamerel, gamrel, gambril and gameral meaning "a crooked or hooked stick". A Gambrel is a stick or piece of timber used to spread open and hang a slaughtered animal by its hind legs. Gambrel is also a term for the joint in the upper part of a horse’s hind leg, the hock. The shape of the spread legs, with a stick between them, looks like the form of the letter 'A'. The Dutch colonized Indonesia and borrowed this roof form from there, naming it 'Gamberil due to the resemblance to the slaughterhouse equipment - the sill crossing between the hips at the base of the 'gablet', as Corkhill calls it, being the part similar to the stick spread between the animal's legs.

Sometime in the mid to late 1800's the term got misapplied, in a tract housing advertisement I believe, to the Mansard roof form, which comes in a 2-side and 4-side variant. I asked a French campanon his terms for both these roof shapes, and he answered 'Mansard' for both. 'Case closed' as far as I'm concerned.

The Mansard may also be called a curb roof in the US is there is a fascia prominent at the fold of the roof planes.

For other American sources on this, you may wish to consult:

Dictionary of Americanisms by John Russel Bartlett, 1848, pg. 166 (also readable online through Google books - look it up): Gambrel, “A hipped roof of a house, so called from the resemblance to the hind leg of a horse which by farriers is termed the gambrel”.

-Dictionary of Architectural and Building Technology 4th Edition (by Henry J.Cowan and Peter R.Smith, published in the US by Spon Press 2004. Library of Congress ISBN 0-415-31234-5) you will find it correctly illustrated (Google has this book available for online reading too -see pg. 134 in the text), to wit: gambrel roof "A sloping roof similar to a HIP ROOF, but with the addition of small gables part-way up the end sloping portions".

So, the illustration provided by Mr. Corkhill is in fact, in every respect, resembling a Gambrel roof. That's is why the word GAMBREL is appended underneath the illustration.

Personally I just prefer to use the term hipped gable in preference to gambrel, which has become confused in popular idiom.

MTF, as far as the two pitches on a Mansard are concerned, the French terms for those are brisis for the lower steeply-pitched roof section, and terrason for the slacker-pitched upper roof section. FWIW, I think the shape of Mansard you built was handsomely proportioned. The shape of the roof can vary quite a lot, as you noted, and I also don't like the ones where the lower pitch dominates, or those designs where the upper pitch is at all steep. I like to layout the Mansard roof using the half-circle method.

I wrote more extensively on the topic of the word 'gambrel' - my postings are currently found on page 3 of the General forum section, under the title "Gambrel roof design".


Edited by Chris Hall (02/15/09 03:47 PM)
_________________________
My blog on carpentry practice, East and West:

http://thecarpentryway.blogspot.com

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#18177 - 02/15/09 05:31 PM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: Chris Hall]
OurBarns1 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Cumberland County, Maine
Originally Posted By: Chris Hall

MTF, as far as the two pitches on a Mansard are concerned, the French terms for those are brisis for the lower steeply-pitched roof section, and terrason for the slacker-pitched upper roof section. FWIW, I think the shape of Mansard you built was handsomely proportioned. The shape of the roof can vary quite a lot, as you noted, and I also don't like the ones where the lower pitch dominates, or those designs where the upper pitch is at all steep. I like to layout the Mansard roof using the half-circle method.



Chris,

Can you explain the "half circle" method or lead me to the post in the earlier thread on this topic. I poked around there but could not find "half circle" described.

One method that gives good proportion for a "mansard" is what I call "inverted layout." ...with the lower slope at two-to-one (rise-to-run) and the upper slope is its inverse: one-to-two.
_________________________
Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...



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#18185 - 02/16/09 04:02 AM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: OurBarns1]
Ken Hume Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 934
Hi Don,

I think that Chris is playing with symatics and you are quite correct that the fundamental feature of a Gambrel roof is that it has 2 roof pitches the lower part of the roof attached to the eaves being steeper than the upper part joining to the ridge.

Mr Corkhill's illustration is of a hipped roof with gablet and is not either a gambrel or mansard roof.

Regards

Ken Hume
_________________________
Looking back to see the way ahead !

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#18191 - 02/16/09 09:48 AM Re: Help a new fella out [Re: OurBarns1]
OurBarns1 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Cumberland County, Maine
Originally Posted By: OurBarns1


One method that gives good proportion for a "mansard" is what I call "inverted layout." ...with the lower slope at two-to-one (rise-to-run) and the upper slope is its inverse: one-to-two.


This is what I was referring to... it's basically half an octagon and does very much resemble a half circle as Chris mentioned. Whatever you want to call this roof style, this "inverted" method gives nice proportions, I think...

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Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...



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