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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: DKR] #18409 03/04/09 10:44 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Here is an analogy: SIPS are like drugs, they enhance the frame, artificially. Lots of people use them. They are created by a refining process, without this process you would only have trees, oil and misc. other stuff. They are distributed through an agent. They cause side effects, a house that is too tight, off gassing(did they fix that) and a possible waste by product, what do you do with the material at the end of it's life. They are quick to install offering instant results, a high.

Clay, on the other hand, is the yin of sips yang.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18417 03/04/09 06:24 PM
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Chris Hall Offline
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death to sips


My blog on carpentry practice, East and West:

https://thecarpentryway.blog
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18418 03/05/09 12:34 AM
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rob Hutchinson Offline
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Great topic. This is one of the most important issues we all should be discussing and sharing ideas on.I am clearing out of sips even though I can recognize the upsides such as fast enclosure and good "conventional" insulator. Way to many downsides such as waste stream, toxicity in manufacture and off-gassing, and non-localized construction.
I am a big proponent of the "alternative" enclosure systems. Straw-bale is my personal favorite, but woodchip and clay and others can also work well. It's also important to remember to research the design and implementation of alternative methods of construction as they can seem deceptively simple.
For our next project we are fabricating panels that are essentially basket walls with dense pack cellulose to 4.2 lbs per sq/ft. The basket walls which are common to the wood-chip and clay as well as other alternative methods deals with the thermal bridging aspect of insulation value without wrapping the entire exterior in foamboard(which would kind of defeat the purpose). The cellulose is post industrial(not post-consumer) and is non-toxic.
I am going in this direction to try and do my small part to bring well insulated and airtight homes to a broad market. I applaud and encourage all who continue in the alternative enclosure field but feel that there can be a danger in sacrificing the worthy when holding out for the ideal.
I am looking for ideas and knowledge in connecting electrical in panel systems(with minimal or no chasing) and non-toxic alternatives to standard construction materials.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18422 03/05/09 12:07 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Derek, you did a nice job with that welcome. I am under the impression panels originated with in the large freezer industry, they came second to timber framing.

rob, you bring up the "basket wall", I have not heard it call that before, it makes sense. All infill ingredients fall into that category, sips, clay/stray/woodchip, straw, cellulose, others. Cordwood even make the list, although it has many more conductive members, it still has the infilled sawdust.

How is the dense pack cellulose applied? What is it's cost / square ft., R-value / inch? Is it damp when installed and how long does it take to dry? Are vapor barriers needed on the outside or is it allowed to breath?

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18423 03/05/09 01:05 PM
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Will Truax Offline
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Seems like Timber done right is always always gonna be a stand a stand alone system coupled with an enclosure, but not necessarily a second structure.

Finding that balance is a bit of a quandary isn't it, in more ways than one. So tight you need mechanicals to maintain healthy air, vrs so many AEH's you're throwing money through the walls – Wrapping the frame in embedded energy drawn from the local economy, vrs minimizing that greatest of costs, labor, and increasing predictability by going the panel route.

No answer fits all the questions.

I'm recently back from helping a friend in Wisconsin scribe an almost unchanged version of Jacks H&P house, hyper local – Winter cut Tamarack and mixed hardwood (even Elm) braces from just up the road , it will be enclosed in cordwood in a workshop late this coming summer. The paradox lies in my involvement, seems like though I was there to free up an associate so he can come back east and help us restore another bridge you have to add the portion of the jet fuel spent to lob my ample backside across half a continent ?!?

No easy answers.

If I was not so far flung from these folks I'd have experimented with these already – has any body out there worked with strawboard ? Interestingly they call their panels SIPS http://agriboard.com/ http://www.stramit-int.com/

Has anyone experimented with baled corrugated ? Every time I drive past one of the vast acerage yards where it waits to be shipped overseas I wonder about better uses, and giggle at the thought of housing the world in cardboard houses.


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18434 03/05/09 07:09 PM
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Will

If it's of interest, some pics of your recent tamarack tweaking might be fun to see. Sounds like a neat structure. And wasn't there a thread about tamarack going around here recently? Perhaps you could comment after working w/ it first hand.

Cordwood is something I've always liked probably for aesthetics more than anything. One house I saw a few years ago used cordwood for more than infill. It was the whole structure.

And the "Agriboard" is interesting. That little video was neat. Surprised it's supposed to be so flame retardant. Doesn't make sense, (I bet I could burn it in my wood stove!!) But it certainly has some appeal in taking pressure off the forests.

And cardboard surely must be possible for enclosures...if they can make agriboard panels from wheat straw, they can probably make boxes from the stuff too.

I hope someone chimes in w/ comments about actually using this "Agriboard."



Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18440 03/06/09 12:36 AM
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bmike Offline
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The folks at the rural studio experimented with all sorts of things - including stacked carpet tiles and baled cardboard.

cardboard

carpet tiles

baled cardboard would be fun. could treat it similar to straw, i would think... should provide plenty of grip for plaster... no?


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: rob Hutchinson] #18441 03/06/09 12:56 AM
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bmike Offline
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another way to get around that dreaded thermal bridging is to build a 2x4 wall on a pair of 2x8 plates. stagger the studs, so that the only locations where a stud passes from inside to out is @ doorways and windows. it certainly uses more resources as you may have to go essentially 12" oc (when taking into account the stagger) to be able to hang sheathing @ 2' oc... fill with cellulose. we're planning on this system (if we can get enough shear) or a 2x8 traditional wall with DOW SIS as the sheathing (still researching the materials for this option.

and - for those who worry about thermal bridging - what type of windows are you using - seems you can have the greatest wall system in the world - but if you punch it full of holes, esp holes that are not effective at blocking solar gain and retaining heat or cold from the inside... your wall is pretty useless. the wall is often greater than the sum of its parts - but that works inversely as well.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18442 03/06/09 01:06 AM
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bmike Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chris Hall
death to sips


perhaps better than 'death to sips' would be death to creating buildings where they don't really fit.

a traditional timber frame doesn't make much sense where there aren't many trees, or where there is a propensity for earthquakes or obnoxiously high wind loading. and a SIP enclosure wouldn't make much sense if we had codes and code enforcement officials that honored the local traditions... whatever they may be now that we've paved over much of our traditions with sprawl and Everywhere, USA. (where everyman and woman can pick up every product they might want while driving down Everywhere Circle in their Everycar...)

i think intelligent design should be re-appropriated from the religious folks and applied to construction. intelligent design may mean that as much as we may want our friends to succeed with their timber frame businesses - a timber frame doesn't make sense in every location, or for every design problem - just as a sod house, straw clay house, clay tile house, or cord wood house do not make sense in all locations. because what is true when engaging in real estate investment or sex holds true in building design - location, location, location should be more important than big wood and fancy curves. the local environment should drive what we are doing. and many times it does not.

(and i'm unfortunately as guilty as most, so you can hang me by my endless slings from a hand peeled gin pole when the revolution comes)


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18443 03/06/09 01:32 AM
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bmike Offline
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and to clarify, i'm also guilty of fancy curves and large timber. and designing for high wind loads and working on a frame that went to a seismic zone.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
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