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2 structures?! #18184 02/16/09 05:58 AM
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mo Offline OP
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Hi,

How do we build without over doing? Timber Frame + SIP. must be another way. but we must keep them conditioned. no more breathing buildings. got to be a better way. anybody know of a perfect climate?

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: mo] #18186 02/16/09 09:03 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Mo,

Perfect climate for the building or the people in it ?

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: mo] #18188 02/16/09 11:46 AM
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No such thing as perfect. I think we can get close but not all the way there. I would try the clay wood chip way myself.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: mo] #18264 02/18/09 06:52 PM
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Chris Hall Offline
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You're right on the money with that one - timber frame + SIP IS a bad idea. I have always thought that, since I first got interested in timber framing in the 90's. I did a recent blog posting (yesterday) at some length on that topic in fact. There are excellent alternative solutions I believe, though 'perfection', as such, is unattainable. Let's say there are better adaptations and wiser uses of material, methods employing local materials and lower embedded energy building. I'm planning to spend a fair bit of time exploring that topic in coming postings on my blog, so I'll hold off on commenting further here.

Last edited by Chris Hall; 02/18/09 06:54 PM.

My blog on carpentry practice, East and West:

https://thecarpentryway.blog
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18281 02/19/09 12:12 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Florida in the winter was quite close to perfect. Or Spring in Maine, just before blackflies.

Foam comes very near perfect as an insulator. But I believe the walls on our homes need to multitask. Just as there is no ideal vehicle, truck, car or somewhere in between, our walls fall into the same dilemma. Indoor air quality is one factor. Thermal mass comes into the picture, foam has none. Comfort levels of the individual varies, this is a determinant for the wall system used.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18380 03/01/09 01:09 AM
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mo Offline OP
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OK. Is the sip more important as a shear wall or an insulator?

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18383 03/02/09 10:58 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I want to hear from someone that says they are important and why. Where are the sip fans?

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18386 03/02/09 03:57 PM
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SIPS work wonders on a timber frame.


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Joel McCarty] #18389 03/02/09 11:05 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Don't hold back, give us the skinny on SIPS.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18399 03/03/09 01:38 PM
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DKR Offline
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Sips are a bridge from the timber frame to the commercial market. They make sense to wealthy customers who are willing to pay for them, and they get the GC, who typically isn't the timber framer, something he understands how to work with.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: DKR] #18409 03/04/09 10:44 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Here is an analogy: SIPS are like drugs, they enhance the frame, artificially. Lots of people use them. They are created by a refining process, without this process you would only have trees, oil and misc. other stuff. They are distributed through an agent. They cause side effects, a house that is too tight, off gassing(did they fix that) and a possible waste by product, what do you do with the material at the end of it's life. They are quick to install offering instant results, a high.

Clay, on the other hand, is the yin of sips yang.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18417 03/04/09 06:24 PM
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Chris Hall Offline
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death to sips


My blog on carpentry practice, East and West:

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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18418 03/05/09 12:34 AM
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Great topic. This is one of the most important issues we all should be discussing and sharing ideas on.I am clearing out of sips even though I can recognize the upsides such as fast enclosure and good "conventional" insulator. Way to many downsides such as waste stream, toxicity in manufacture and off-gassing, and non-localized construction.
I am a big proponent of the "alternative" enclosure systems. Straw-bale is my personal favorite, but woodchip and clay and others can also work well. It's also important to remember to research the design and implementation of alternative methods of construction as they can seem deceptively simple.
For our next project we are fabricating panels that are essentially basket walls with dense pack cellulose to 4.2 lbs per sq/ft. The basket walls which are common to the wood-chip and clay as well as other alternative methods deals with the thermal bridging aspect of insulation value without wrapping the entire exterior in foamboard(which would kind of defeat the purpose). The cellulose is post industrial(not post-consumer) and is non-toxic.
I am going in this direction to try and do my small part to bring well insulated and airtight homes to a broad market. I applaud and encourage all who continue in the alternative enclosure field but feel that there can be a danger in sacrificing the worthy when holding out for the ideal.
I am looking for ideas and knowledge in connecting electrical in panel systems(with minimal or no chasing) and non-toxic alternatives to standard construction materials.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18422 03/05/09 12:07 PM
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Derek, you did a nice job with that welcome. I am under the impression panels originated with in the large freezer industry, they came second to timber framing.

rob, you bring up the "basket wall", I have not heard it call that before, it makes sense. All infill ingredients fall into that category, sips, clay/stray/woodchip, straw, cellulose, others. Cordwood even make the list, although it has many more conductive members, it still has the infilled sawdust.

How is the dense pack cellulose applied? What is it's cost / square ft., R-value / inch? Is it damp when installed and how long does it take to dry? Are vapor barriers needed on the outside or is it allowed to breath?

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18423 03/05/09 01:05 PM
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Will Truax Offline
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Seems like Timber done right is always always gonna be a stand a stand alone system coupled with an enclosure, but not necessarily a second structure.

Finding that balance is a bit of a quandary isn't it, in more ways than one. So tight you need mechanicals to maintain healthy air, vrs so many AEH's you're throwing money through the walls – Wrapping the frame in embedded energy drawn from the local economy, vrs minimizing that greatest of costs, labor, and increasing predictability by going the panel route.

No answer fits all the questions.

I'm recently back from helping a friend in Wisconsin scribe an almost unchanged version of Jacks H&P house, hyper local – Winter cut Tamarack and mixed hardwood (even Elm) braces from just up the road , it will be enclosed in cordwood in a workshop late this coming summer. The paradox lies in my involvement, seems like though I was there to free up an associate so he can come back east and help us restore another bridge you have to add the portion of the jet fuel spent to lob my ample backside across half a continent ?!?

No easy answers.

If I was not so far flung from these folks I'd have experimented with these already – has any body out there worked with strawboard ? Interestingly they call their panels SIPS http://agriboard.com/ http://www.stramit-int.com/

Has anyone experimented with baled corrugated ? Every time I drive past one of the vast acerage yards where it waits to be shipped overseas I wonder about better uses, and giggle at the thought of housing the world in cardboard houses.


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18434 03/05/09 07:09 PM
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Will

If it's of interest, some pics of your recent tamarack tweaking might be fun to see. Sounds like a neat structure. And wasn't there a thread about tamarack going around here recently? Perhaps you could comment after working w/ it first hand.

Cordwood is something I've always liked probably for aesthetics more than anything. One house I saw a few years ago used cordwood for more than infill. It was the whole structure.

And the "Agriboard" is interesting. That little video was neat. Surprised it's supposed to be so flame retardant. Doesn't make sense, (I bet I could burn it in my wood stove!!) But it certainly has some appeal in taking pressure off the forests.

And cardboard surely must be possible for enclosures...if they can make agriboard panels from wheat straw, they can probably make boxes from the stuff too.

I hope someone chimes in w/ comments about actually using this "Agriboard."



Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18440 03/06/09 12:36 AM
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bmike Offline
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The folks at the rural studio experimented with all sorts of things - including stacked carpet tiles and baled cardboard.

cardboard

carpet tiles

baled cardboard would be fun. could treat it similar to straw, i would think... should provide plenty of grip for plaster... no?


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: rob Hutchinson] #18441 03/06/09 12:56 AM
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another way to get around that dreaded thermal bridging is to build a 2x4 wall on a pair of 2x8 plates. stagger the studs, so that the only locations where a stud passes from inside to out is @ doorways and windows. it certainly uses more resources as you may have to go essentially 12" oc (when taking into account the stagger) to be able to hang sheathing @ 2' oc... fill with cellulose. we're planning on this system (if we can get enough shear) or a 2x8 traditional wall with DOW SIS as the sheathing (still researching the materials for this option.

and - for those who worry about thermal bridging - what type of windows are you using - seems you can have the greatest wall system in the world - but if you punch it full of holes, esp holes that are not effective at blocking solar gain and retaining heat or cold from the inside... your wall is pretty useless. the wall is often greater than the sum of its parts - but that works inversely as well.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18442 03/06/09 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: Chris Hall
death to sips


perhaps better than 'death to sips' would be death to creating buildings where they don't really fit.

a traditional timber frame doesn't make much sense where there aren't many trees, or where there is a propensity for earthquakes or obnoxiously high wind loading. and a SIP enclosure wouldn't make much sense if we had codes and code enforcement officials that honored the local traditions... whatever they may be now that we've paved over much of our traditions with sprawl and Everywhere, USA. (where everyman and woman can pick up every product they might want while driving down Everywhere Circle in their Everycar...)

i think intelligent design should be re-appropriated from the religious folks and applied to construction. intelligent design may mean that as much as we may want our friends to succeed with their timber frame businesses - a timber frame doesn't make sense in every location, or for every design problem - just as a sod house, straw clay house, clay tile house, or cord wood house do not make sense in all locations. because what is true when engaging in real estate investment or sex holds true in building design - location, location, location should be more important than big wood and fancy curves. the local environment should drive what we are doing. and many times it does not.

(and i'm unfortunately as guilty as most, so you can hang me by my endless slings from a hand peeled gin pole when the revolution comes)


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18443 03/06/09 01:32 AM
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bmike Offline
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and to clarify, i'm also guilty of fancy curves and large timber. and designing for high wind loads and working on a frame that went to a seismic zone.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18444 03/06/09 07:52 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi,

I have never been completely sold on the idea of SIP's but can see their benefits as well as their shortcomings. It is just another solution in the timber framing toolbox that might prove to be more appropriate than other solutions to satisfy a given set of circumstances.

I was at a house in Surrey on Sunday and this was originally built with 2 x 4 stud walls that were covered in feather edged cedar on the outside and a simple split lath and lime plaster interior on the inside. There was no insulation in the walls and yet after a period of over 100 years this building is still standing. One would have thought that the occupants would have frozen to death a number of times over this last century but somehow both the building and its occupants (not the same ones) have managed to survive. The original building design solution was adequate for the building but not necessarily for the occupants. We have now been challenged to alter the balance slightly more in favour of the occupants without causing major damage to the building. Our solution will be mathematical tiles on the lower outside elevations on top of a breatheable building fabric (think Typar) with a sheepswool batt insulation in the cavity and a split lath and lime plaster interior. This is not a perfect solution but is one which attempts to respect both the building and its occupants and it is reverseable i.e. we can retrieve our steps back to the starting point if problems are encountered.

I do not think that this solution is necessarily the answer for New England and definitely not for Alaska but where possible the solution adopted should compliment and satisfy the building as well as being liveable for the occupants.

These old buildings would never satisfy modern building regulations however one has to ask the question which of the two has the greater track record ?

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 03/06/09 07:56 AM.

Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Ken Hume] #18445 03/06/09 12:28 PM
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Glad to see the straw panels are back, I thought they kicked the bucket. The only place I had seen them used was over at Fox Maple. Steve had the ones with drywall as the skin on both sides, Which is what I would like to see. I didn't see them on that link, just OSB. R-25 for the 8" panel, I bet it is heavy.

Some great comments and perspectives. Yes, we need to leave room for the SIPS.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18449 03/06/09 02:39 PM
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Joel McCarty Offline
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Just wait until you receive your Mortise & Tenon #35 (now in distribution).

The final spread features a detailed look at modern adaptations of wattle and daub by Rob Hadden . . . . the energetic and adventuresome builder from Australia.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18457 03/06/09 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: bmike
another way to get around that dreaded thermal bridging is to build a 2x4 wall on a pair of 2x8 plates. stagger the studs, so that the only locations where a stud passes from inside to out is @ doorways and windows.


In the mid-late 1980s, when I was a carpentry student at the local trade school, we built a "Good Sense Home" that was auctioned off at the close of the school year. It had two 2X4 walls set on a 2X12 shoe/plate that had a small air space in between. Deep window sills by default.

Both walls were insulated and stud layout staggered. The local power company (Central Maine Power) had sponsored these. Electric heat was becoming popular. We had a nuclear power plant then. It was the only example I ever saw of this type of "super insulated" house. I don't know why it didn't become more popular.


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: OurBarns1] #18461 03/07/09 12:47 AM
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Its pricey, and labor intensive. Uses quite a bit of material as well...


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18463 03/07/09 02:54 AM
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Must be those reasons...economics governs most everything it seems. Short term economics.

But we're all here for the long term.



I liked your earlier thoughts on building what's right for the environment: timber frames don't make sense everywhere...
(but they are always beautiful :-))


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: OurBarns1] #18467 03/07/09 09:47 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Bob Hadden's work is incredible. I should get a subscription to the Mortice and Tenon. My interest has been perked, thanks, Joel.

It is amazing how some people can have such an objectionable opinion toward natural building material. Yesterday a life long friend came completely apart when I tried explaining my future plans to construct a clay/chip wall on an addition to my own home. It was not the first time someone has had difficulty with "Mud" being used to build with, like it is downgrading, or inferior. I was completely taken aback.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: OurBarns1] #18468 03/07/09 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted By: OurBarns1
Must be those reasons...economics governs most everything it seems. Short term economics.

But we're all here for the long term.


actually, we're (you and me) are here for the very short term, and we (homosapiens) are here for the short term... everything else is relative. the earth - that has been and most likely will be here with or without us for a very long time.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18470 03/07/09 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
Bob Hadden's work is incredible. I should get a subscription to the Mortice and Tenon. My interest has been perked, thanks, Joel.

It is amazing how some people can have such an objectionable opinion toward natural building material. Yesterday a life long friend came completely apart when I tried explaining my future plans to construct a clay/chip wall on an addition to my own home. It was not the first time someone has had difficulty with "Mud" being used to build with, like it is downgrading, or inferior. I was completely taken aback.

Tim


Tim,

I've noticed the same phenomenon. It's a real obstacle to these building methods being used more. I guess the answer is just keep exposing people to it. What did Ghandi say? "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

I, too, have become obsessed with the relationship between earth, lime, and timber. I am just starting the planning of my personal house and am weighing all the options. Mud brick? Cob? Woodchip clay? Time for more research...

You really need to come to the Eastern Conference this year in Saratoga Springs and talk to Rob Hadden -- he's a great guy and really loves to share what he knows. He is a good presenter and has a ton of good info and experience about building with clay and lime. He's just a really nice guy. (Also Jack Sobon will be there presenting, and possibly Laurie Smith).

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Gabel] #18474 03/07/09 04:54 PM
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I have not looked at the list of presenters of the Eastern Conference, I may have to squeeze it in. I just can't see it all happening. If I commit it gets harder to back out.

I am looking forward to doing some test digs for clay samples on my land. I also need to purchas some pure clay for comparison. My goal is to build the bulk of the structure from the the local enviroment, from the ground to the roof. Yup, on-going research.

Tim


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18476 03/07/09 06:33 PM
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I don't think any hard and fast rules can apply to this discussion.

When I was raising my first timber frame (my house), my friend said wait, you're going to build a whole separate wall outside of the frame? The only way it can make sense is to justify it in terms of the whole open building concept, that the structure is distinct from the enclosure. And I do like that concept, in theory at least. So unless we all build uninsulated barns we've got to deal with insulation somehow.

I've tried infilling between studs, a whole separate wall outside the frame, my very first SIP roof, DIY SIPS with rigid foam, and I've seen and done lots of research on stray/clay or woodchip/clay walls.

There's pluses and minuses and factors to be considered on all of these systems. I've come up with all sorts of design questions in trying to insulate spaces including (but not at all limited to):

-what is really local? Are the SIPS made 100 miles away local? The cellulose from local newspapers with studs from Siberia? How about studs sawn from the site? What if you then sheath it with plywood? Clay from the site? They don't grow much straw in my neighborhood.

-What kind of foundation can I use to support a timber frame and an 18" straw bale? What if they want a full basement? Alaskan slabs? And keeping the base of the wall dry? And they can't afford a stone stem wall...

-What is the real performance of the insulation? The ICF industry somehow gets to claim R48 on their 3" of foam and 10" of concrete. I don't think so. The thermal mass argument needs to be taken with a big grain of salt in New England. If it's 25 degrees outside on the north side of your house for 3 months, and 65 inside, what's that thermal mass doing for you?
I very much like the straw/woodchip clay walls, but I don't think their R-value will ever approach cellulose or foam. I've seen the numbers somewhere, and they are pretty good, but I'm not sure if they'd meet code where I live. As much as codes are a downer, the insulation standards may actually be worthwhile. Maybe. Depends on how uncomfortable you're willing to be.

-How do you insulate the roof? You need LOTS of insulation in Mass. Are you going to put 3' of loose fill straw/clay up there, and how do you frame around that?

These questions go on and on. In summary I guess I'm saying any of these materials can work great, but there are some issues with any of them. I don't think the TF industry standard (SIPS) deserves all of the props they get in the marketing literature, but I also don't think they're evil. I also don't think you'll be karmically reincarnated as a newt if you build your walls with straw/clay and put rigid foam on the roof. It's a spectrum, and there's lots of variable involved--climate, cost, what materials are available, interior and exterior finishes, comfort of the owners, and on and on. And just like every other design problem, you've got to come up with a solution.

Brad

and note I never said anything about batt insulation. I would argue that that stuff should never be used, at least where I live.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: timberwrestler] #18480 03/08/09 04:23 AM
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Chris Hall Offline
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timberwrestler wrote,

"When I was raising my first timber frame (my house), my friend said wait, you're going to build a whole separate wall outside of the frame? The only way it can make sense is to justify it in terms of the whole open building concept, that the structure is distinct from the enclosure."

What do you mean, the only way it can make sense? Why is the 'open building concept' the only answer 'making sense'? Apply the same logic to single vs double pane windows and see how far it gets you. Obviously having a full timber frame and then a full stick frame exterior to it is using far too much material for the loads to be borne, however, that's where a reassessment of design comes in handy - refer again to your final comment in your piece.

"I've come up with all sorts of design questions in trying to insulate spaces including (but not at all limited to):

-what is really local? Are the SIPS made 100 miles away local?
"

I'll go with that. I suspect defining 'local' is a bit difficult, but it surely is within a day's drive. Some would argue walking distance, others would suggest horse and cart distance. I think when we get into sea freight, air lift, and trucking from the other side of the continent, we are beyond 'local', no?

Perhaps 'local' could refer to a general climatic and ecological zone??

"The cellulose from local newspapers with studs from Siberia?"

Hah - where'd the pulp for that newspaper come from? And definitely 'no', the studs from Siberia aren't 'local' in New England.

"How about studs sawn from the site?"

Can't get much more local than that.

"What if you then sheath it with plywood?"

Depends upon the source, both of the material and the plywood mill.

"Clay from the site?"

What's more local than that?


"They don't grow much straw in my neighborhood."

Well they are starting to - a CSA for grain just started in Amherst, MA, and there are grain producers up in Quebec, which is within a day's drive. Further, straw can be replaced very well with wood chips, which are abundant where you live, and are superior in some respects, especially in wetter areas.

I think an over-emphasis on the transportation equation is a little misleading. Most products I have looked at, if you look at the overall environmental impact, the transportation component, even if the stuff comes from overseas, is not a large percentage of the footprint -well under 10% for a lot of products from what I understand. I would say that embedded energy in manufacture is at least as big a component. That factor, for me, rules out SIPS, even if they are made next door. I don't want the factory to take over my trade, so I can't support that industry. I can't find a way to accept the landfill problem at the end of their usable lifespan either. SIPS suck.

"What kind of foundation can I use to support a timber frame and an 18" straw bale?'

Easily solved problem.

What if they want a full basement?

then they can have one too.

Alaskan slabs? And keeping the base of the wall dry? And they can't afford a stone stem wall...'

There's concrete and vapor break between wood and concrete.

"What is the real performance of the insulation? The ICF industry somehow gets to claim R48 on their 3" of foam and 10" of concrete. I don't think so."

Neither do I. Who needs R48 foundation anyhow?

"The thermal mass argument needs to be taken with a big grain of salt in New England. If it's 25 degrees outside on the north side of your house for 3 months, and 65 inside, what's that thermal mass doing for you?

I guess that if one lived in a house with only one wall, this might be a concern.

"I very much like the straw/woodchip clay walls, but I don't think their R-value will ever approach cellulose or foam."

Inch for inch, no, however the clay woodchip wall can be made thicker to suit - at 12", apparently R24 - isn't that adequate? Besides, the benefits of having clay in the wall run to more than simple R-value, and you know that I'm sure.


"I've seen the numbers somewhere, and they are pretty good, but I'm not sure if they'd meet code where I live. As much as codes are a downer, the insulation standards may actually be worthwhile. Maybe. Depends on how uncomfortable you're willing to be.

If one is masochistic, that is one thing, but there's no reason one can't be quite comfortable in a house with light clay/woodchip walls, or straw bale walls. And code, well, that serves industry and the insurance companies more than anything else. There is possibility of amendments and special green building codes if consumers demand it and builders promote it - it's happening in some places.

"How do you insulate the roof? You need LOTS of insulation in Mass. Are you going to put 3' of loose fill straw/clay up there, and how do you frame around that?"

That is a good question, and one of the design challenges to using alternative insulative materials. I can think of any number of solutions, but perhaps some use of conventional insulation products in the ceiling and roof space might well be justified for a lot of folks, especially if they are greatly reducing the use of those materials in the rest of their structure. I don't know about 3' of insulative material being necessary, though I can certainly think of ways to frame that in if that was the objective, and I'm sure you could too timberwrestler.

"I don't think the TF industry standard (SIPS) deserves all of the props they get in the marketing literature, but I also don't think they're evil."

I guess you hadn't heard, that at Lord Vader's command, the entire Death Star was built from SIPS? Saved a lot of labor time - they put the Death Star up in little over a week and are getting R100 from the custom 60 sq. km size panels....

"I also don't think you'll be karmically reincarnated as a newt if you build your walls with straw/clay and put rigid foam on the roof."

What would be wrong with a newt? Certainly smarter than some folks I heard on talk radio lately. Kidding aside, you are right that it isn't always practical to be totally purist, and having walls that are light clay and foam in the roof is going to be an acceptable compromise to most folks, I would think

"And just like every other design problem, you've got to come up with a solution."

Exactly.



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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18481 03/08/09 11:47 AM
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Derek, be careful of what you wish for, the Mayan calendar ends in a few years. We are entering a new galactic age.

I have been through all the issues brought up and seem to have reasonably addressed them to my satisfaction.

I have access to every item I would need with out going to the building supply store, with the exception of cellulose and screws. I would not insulate the roof. It will be strapped across the rafters and wooden shingles applied. I have even looked into granite, as a previous thread will attest too. Use the hot attic for drying herbs or something.

I grew up in a house built in the 1970, it used 2x4 studs with 3-1/2" of fiber glass, R-13. It is still lived in, this winter it burned 2 cords of wood. I will be happy with 12" of clay and chips. If the house is heated with oil I can see super insulating it. I do not plan of using a fossil fuel to heat my home, the wood will be salvaged or cut on my own land my me and my family.

Some great comments and thoughts.

Tim


Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18483 03/08/09 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
Derek, be careful of what you wish for, the Mayan calendar ends in a few years. We are entering a new galactic age.


Uh, are you calling me 'Derek' now? I must have missed the memo. I've been called 'Paul' a few times, but 'Derek' is a new one.

Oh, by the way, I hear that Death Star Industries® looks to be achieving Leeds Platinum certification for their new line of Death Stars...


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18485 03/08/09 04:48 PM
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And just remember who was in power before the 'empire' took over. A pseudo religious cult and you had to have certain 'genetics' to be accepted into the ruling and warrior class. Then the empire comes along, turns it all on its head in the name of order... and the previous ruling party goes into hiding, gets all disruptive, etc.

And what of the Death Star? How many thousands of innocents must have died when our fearless 'rebellion' blew it to bits. I mean - certainly - there must have been thousands of moms and pops and 'normal' folks on there just trying to make a living, doing the best with the hand they were dealt - you know, punching the clock as a stormtrooper, or TIE fighter mechanic, or robot repairwoman.

Black and White is so last century.

-Mike wink


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18486 03/08/09 04:53 PM
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Naw, I think I'm starting to like the term 'Derek' a lot better, given its meaning in old German of "ruler of the people" - sure beats my name, "bearing the body of Christ" all the time.

I understand that Death Star Industries® is planning a whole line of Death Stars©, from the basic Icosohedral 'Mini Death©' to the flamboyant 65537-gon model, Death Max©, which incorporates the latest in panel connection technology - all that's needed is a socket wrench, and a few thousand laborers.

The key to these exciting new developments was the 'negotiation' with the Ewoks, where it was found they could be most advantageously coerced - I mean 'induced' - to work for pennies a day doing utterly mundane unskilled labor. Why, you'd be amazed what those little gippers will do for a buck! also, they are remarkably tolerant of workplace toxins, and when one keels over, there seems to be a line up of other Ewoks just waiting to take their place.

And when the lifespan of a SIP-paneled Death Star© comes to an end, why we just shuffle them off into the nearest sun, where they are conveniently burned up, 'No fuss, no muss', that's the motto of Death Star Industries....


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18488 03/08/09 06:25 PM
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nah, the ewoks eventually sold out to 'harvest' their forests so that jedi masters could build really exotic furniture and timber frames with the old growth materials.

i think you are mistaking them for the sand people, or maybe the humans. oh wait, we're already there - its just that its not death star industries that necessarily creates all this trouble, but perhaps the folks who keep them in business... you know, those people all around us, those people just like us.


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18489 03/08/09 08:38 PM
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I'm not keeping Death Star Industries in business, though I hear they have an opening in the marketing department, and it probably pays better than my current line of work, so maybe I should think about 'moving up'.

There's talk of a new line of branded merchandise at Death Star, starting with Animosité Pour Homme ('Animosity for Men' when sold in the French market), a new fragrance for the man of today, and soon there will be a clothing line I'm sure...


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: mo] #18490 03/09/09 12:03 AM
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So, who in this thread has worked with the 'dreaded' SIP? Installed it, engineered it, made it, cut it, etc. etc.? Just a curiosity poll... wondering who has hands on experience...


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18491 03/09/09 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: djswan
"Death to sips" sounds like a hard and fast rule. I would judge in favor of a life sentence on the moon or in some cool underwater city, along those lines or just keep sips on the ice box. Plenty of natural building materials out there. I want mammoth tusk as my front entrance.

Derek


Chris, this is the Derek I was speaking to, with his underwater city and mammoth tusk's. The rest of my comments weren't directed toward any particular individual.

I am now watching a DVD titled, The Great Year. It deals with the precession of the equinox, the age of civilization, the question of the earths wobble, and more.

Tim



Last edited by TIMBEAL; 03/09/09 12:10 AM.
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18493 03/09/09 02:40 AM
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Thanks for the clarification - once again I was confused. Whew! I can go back to being Chris again.


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18508 03/10/09 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: bmike
So, who in this thread has worked with the 'dreaded' SIP? Installed it, engineered it, made it, cut it, etc. etc.? Just a curiosity poll... wondering who has hands on experience...


I've worked on one project that had SIPS, the first timber framing job I ever labored upon (working for another company of course). The SIPs required cutting on site and craning into place. Never again - I strongly disliked them before I ever worked with them, and after working with them, only felt more convinced of that view.

Last edited by Chris Hall; 03/10/09 12:30 AM.

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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18509 03/10/09 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: djswan
I figured you were talking about me after much confusion. It was using the name "Derek" that qued me in. I'm always glad to help clarify any statements regarding underwater cities, my dream home with genetically engineered mammoth tusk front pillars, and why carpenters should install SIPs on the moon and not on our dwellings here on earth. and always appreciate any help cleaning up, er ah clarifying. smile

at your service


Derek


Well ya gotta start small - forget SIPs on the moon, that's a job for the big boys, and i think Death Star has the contract sewn up. How about a line of SIP-inspired winter clothes? Sandwich Wear© perhaps might be a good branding possibility...

or...

how about this: In-SIP-id Wear©.

With the right celeb endorsements, this could be big!


Last edited by Chris Hall; 03/10/09 12:35 AM.

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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #18510 03/10/09 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Chris Hall
Originally Posted By: djswan
I figured you were talking about me after much confusion. It was using the name "Derek" that qued me in. I'm always glad to help clarify any statements regarding underwater cities, my dream home with genetically engineered mammoth tusk front pillars, and why carpenters should install SIPs on the moon and not on our dwellings here on earth. and always appreciate any help cleaning up, er ah clarifying. smile

at your service


Derek


Well ya gotta start small - forget SIPs on the moon, that's a job for the big boys, and i think Death Star has the contract sewn up. How about a line of SIP-inspired winter clothes? Sandwich Wear© perhaps might be a good branding possibility...

or...

how about this: In-SIP-id Wear©.

With the right celeb endorsements, this could be big!



Maybe a posthumous Notorious SIP.


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18511 03/10/09 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: bmike
So, who in this thread has worked with the 'dreaded' SIP? Installed it, engineered it, made it, cut it, etc. etc.? Just a curiosity poll... wondering who has hands on experience...


I've installed the Notorious SIP a few times. I never recomend them for walls. They make no sense in Georgia in that application. Occasionally, I think they make sense for a roof.

I like cellulose better.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Gabel] #18512 03/10/09 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Gabel
Occasionally, I think they make sense for a roof.

I like cellulose better.


+1, I certainly feel this way most of the time.


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18516 03/10/09 10:40 AM
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Don't panic, I was told by the panel guys, that flavor is just carbon, the base of all life.

I think I made a post the other day but it seems to of fallen into the gutter. Yes I have used them. It seems I am looking for a higher challenge in my life. Panels are simple but complex. Clay/woodchips are also, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Tim

Last edited by TIMBEAL; 03/10/09 10:41 AM.
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18517 03/10/09 03:11 PM
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All hail the clay-woodchip partnership. Low tech, customizable, no off-gassing, pleasant to work, and when plastering, leads to rewarding skill development over time. Varied, tunable, colorable, repairable, recyclable, low embedded energy - all good.

Of course, the clay/woodchip excels in the wall- it's the roof insulation that is the bigger energy-conserving concern and more difficult to realize with basic materials like clay and pant-fiber.

Has anyone looked into amending the clay/straw/w.h.y with a bunch of perlite and casting lightweight insulative blocks?


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18519 03/10/09 05:02 PM
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Ah, word to the wise - beware the circular work - challenging and time consuming, especially in irregular/natural materials.

By the way, that was meant to be 'plant' fiber, not 'pant' fiber in the previous post (though pant fiber might well work!).

how come you can only edit a post once - what's with THAT?

Last edited by Chris Hall; 03/10/09 05:05 PM.

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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: ] #18521 03/10/09 11:40 PM
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but as gravity has the power to bend light, theres a fairly good chance that if we do find life 'out there' we might be looking right back on ourselves, carpenters on the moon or not.

i'd kind of expect walls made of cheese then.



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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18566 03/12/09 10:18 PM
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giant steps are what you take...

this thread has all four layers of meaning, although I have not found them all yet.

i bet I could lift an 8X10X26 on the moon. I could probably toss it up to you.

we may have strayed off from the literal.

Thanks for everyones comments on alternatives. I plan to look into them.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: OurBarns1] #18661 03/18/09 06:49 PM
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Don -

Sorry no pics, the trip was an impromptu hurried together arrangement, an aspect of the schedule conflict I made mention of in the TTRAG thread. The frame was supposed to be cut after the bridge restoration, but the schedule had to be juggled and pushed forward because of the delay.

Only cut a day or two when timber supply issues held up the scribing I was there to do, but found it nice to work but for the pitch pockets incessantly seeping sap with napalm like flammability.

I will have pics at some point in the future, as I'll be back out to teach a raising and rigging workshop to raise the frame. The I-House we scribed is the full jowled version, and there will be no hand raising without some mechanical assist.

I'll post an update on the new workshop forum when all the particulars are worked out.

Has anybody out there worked with any of these products and know if there is any US distribution network ?

http://www.lhoist.co.uk/tradical/hemp.html


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18687 03/20/09 01:51 AM
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Don't know if anyone was wondering besides me, but I found the US distributor for Tradical -

http://www.americanlimetec.com/


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18691 03/20/09 10:37 AM
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Looks like a promising product available to the general contractor for the masses. I like the combination, lime and hemp, allowing the system to breath and pass moisture. The spec's mentioned U-value, I did not see R-value used, maybe I missed that. How does U-value equate to R-value, anyone know?

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #18693 03/20/09 12:44 PM
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looks very promising.
i'll have to spend time on the website.

wil and chris dancey (tfg members and dietrich's NA reps) used a hemp lime infill system on their home in ontario. came out wonderful... they formed up between timbers and then did various plaster finishes.

lots of labor for sure. a block version would be a big help... except for trucking across country to your local site.

i've often thought a great way to start using some of these alternatives would be to set up a hoop house and throughout the summer (whilst other building activities were ongoing) you could press blocks of hemp lime or straw clay or woodchip clay. if done well a press set up to a known PSI could get the block consistent... and then stacked to dry out of the weather. blocks would theoretically all be 'pre-shrunk' - esp if the mix was consistent from batch to batch.

as the foundation and framing moves along the blocks could move to the walls - where they would still need to be covered from rain - but you'd be able to keep working. you could mortar the blocks together with a lime or clay slip. might be able to pin them to each other and you could tie them to framing with brick ties or similar.



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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18694 03/20/09 12:46 PM
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also, is the hemp grown stateside, or is it being imported?


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #18700 03/20/09 03:11 PM
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Mike - as you might know, it'll be awhile and take some pressure, before we have locally grown hemp fiber as a binder for our lime plaster, or hemp hurds for slip chip, or hemp oil in the B-40 blend I buy up the road.

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/medi...&m=10395114

Gotta start somewhere...

Tim - U is an inverse of R, a useful known when thinking of mass, heat sink and release.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)#U-value

Last edited by Will Truax; 03/20/09 03:15 PM. Reason: To add a link

"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Will Truax] #18702 03/20/09 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Will Truax
Mike - as you might know, it'll be awhile and take some pressure, before we have locally grown hemp fiber as a binder for our lime plaster, or hemp hurds for slip chip, or hemp oil in the B-40 blend I buy up the road.


sad, but true.
you can smoke some dope, but you can't really smoke some rope.

(*disclaimer - i can't actually say that i've done either...)


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #22146 12/28/09 01:26 AM
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Hi Chris, i'm new to the forum so how do I accesss your blog to review what you have to say on this topic. I'm presently underway building a timber frame straw bale wrap around home and considering using a natural clay plaster.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #22147 12/28/09 01:32 AM
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Sorry, SIP's are far too expensive, contribute to poor air quality, the off-gasing is a trigger for asthmatics etc...If you want the convenience of a SIP and willing to pay for it along with the crane cost why not go for a straw SIP? I'm personally quite excited about the applications of strawbales. Anyone else out there working with straw and timber frames?

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: maurice poulin] #22148 12/28/09 01:36 AM
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Hi Maurice,

I gather that your question was directed at me, so I'll give you the link to my blog:

the carpentryway

I haven't written much of late on the topic of natural building, as I'm absorbed in three other things presently, but you may find something of interest to your project if you look through older postings, like the "Mud and Sticks" series. If you have any questions which you feel I might be able to possibly assist you with, my e-mail contact can be found on my blog profile.

All the best,

Chris


Thanks!


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #22149 12/28/09 01:38 AM
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Hi Tim,

I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences with clay, straw and other natural nearby materials as they apply to timber framing. I'm presently in the early stages of building a timber frame straw bale wrap around home along with a built up roof. We are considering using a natural clay earthen plaster and a masonary heater as well.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: rob Hutchinson] #22150 12/28/09 01:49 AM
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Hi Rob, I'm very interested in the direction you are taking. SIPs are very convenient as they apply to the contractor wanting to enclose the building asap and make it air tight. I'm presently in the early stages of building a timber frame strawbale wrap around with a buildt up roof and a masonary heater. We are considering applying an earthen clay plaster on the inside and outside walls.

I'm interested in the fabrication of your panels. You describe the technique as to densely pack the cellulose to 4.2 lbs per sq/ft. What I do not understand in this application is how the cellulose will perform when compacted so densely. My understanding is that cellulose requires air similar to fiberglass to be a good insulator. Am I wrong here, I must admit, I have no direct working experience with cellulose other than blowing it into the attic spaces of strawbale homes.

I'm very interested in the work your doing and would like to keep in touch.

Maurice

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: maurice poulin] #22151 12/28/09 03:10 AM
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High density cellulose is sprayed in lightly wetted, in a mist. Part of its better insulating value is air does not pass through it easily. There are still air chamber in it.

I am waiting for spring to continue my clay work. I am going to be focusing on wood chips and light clay. Maybe some work with swale grass, for it grows locally, this won't be in bale form but mixed with a clay slip and various ways of infilling. One of interest is wrapping the grass on sticks which are wedged into a bay this is then covered with a clay plaster or render.

Tim

Last edited by TIMBEAL; 12/28/09 03:21 AM.
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #22152 12/28/09 03:31 AM
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Why not simply use "I" beams manufactured to whatever dimension you want to achieve the R value you are looking for. This has been known as the "larsen" system. The deeper you make them you'll need to increase your outside slab to account for this or you may end up burying the timber frame and who wants that.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Joel McCarty] #22153 12/28/09 04:02 AM
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Hi Joel, I have not heard of the Mortise & Tenon publication. Can you forward the website or any other information you may have.

Thanks,
Maurice

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Chris Hall] #22154 12/28/09 04:24 AM
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Thanks Chris,
Your blog is excellent. It will take sometime to go through it but it is time well spent.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: maurice poulin] #22155 12/28/09 12:09 PM
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Tradition says "bury the frame", the larsen system will work too. Infilling in the wall can be done on a simple frame without dealing with the shelf needed to support the exterior system. I want variables, choices to solve problems which come up. Why box your self in with one system?

I need get on the ball and subscribe to the M&T.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: mo] #23207 04/03/10 11:16 PM
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Great thread. I think I read all of the posts until they started talking about the death star, wha???

My wife and I built a cord wood bath house. We used denim batt insulation in the roof. GREAT PRODUCT! Highly recommended. non-toxic material rescued from jean factory waste stream.
http://www.bondedlogic.com/

The cordwood infill is beautiful and performs well. However, I would NEVER do it again. Nearly wrecked my body and my mind wasn't too happy either...I believe it took me 6 months to wall in a 200 sf structure working 10 hours/day 6 days/week /wife working quarter time. So in deciding how to infill our timber frame we put high on the list that it must NOT be so labor intensive, which is why SIPS have been considered, but I think we are leaning towards something more sustainable. My property has a lot of clay and straw is farmed right next door. Now just need some kind cement mixer pourable straw clay mix into a form, or maybe some type of adobe brick press. Mass production has its' merits for this old body!

Lastly I read a book on sustainable building in England that mentioned board and batten siding on straw bale INSTEAD of stucco which brought straw bale right back in the running for me. Anybody familiar with this method?? Must handle moisture well if it works in England. I believe they provided an air space for chimney effect behind the cladding similar to roof insulation air space. My first thought though is, what about fires? But it does sound like way less work.

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: counselorpaul] #23208 04/03/10 11:29 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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In my simple straw bale cabin I did not use any clay on the inside or outside. 2x4's 2' on center on the outside then house wrap and clapboard siding. The frame was vertically boarded with the bales going on next.

I would dip the whole bale in a clay slip next time, to seal it up, it would be a messy job I would stuff any voids with wads of loose straw mixed with a slip.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #23215 04/04/10 05:39 PM
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Cool Tim. How is the performance? There is a pioneering straw bale man in France I believe who is dipping his bales in clay slip prior to stacking. It seems like the wall would be pretty lumpy because you can't use your weed eater or Lancelot to straighten things up....(I don't like the lumpy look smile

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #23217 04/04/10 08:59 PM
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I am a SIP fan, but not exclusively to other systems. I am in NYC metro area where full (or walkout) basements are expected, and labor costs are among the highest in the world. There are "Comparative market values" that have to be considered for resale, as "Real Estate" is a huge part of the economy here with the average time for change in ownership/sale of a house was under 4 yrs before the Recession. I emphasize the better value of a longer term investment of higher quality, better performing, lower maintenance, energy efficiency. Of course that eliminates "house flippers" and pushes people to "think smaller" than is the norm and hopefully consider what they really need in a house and home, and how to use limited financial and sweat equity resources. We all know that TF building is a small market sector that we encourage to grow - join the TFG and pay your dues!
I'll say again, that my FAVORITE TFG rendezvous project was 1989 Habitat for Humanity hose building in York PA. We used SIPs there. Get a copy of "Raising the Roof" from the Guild online store - inspiring and instructional.
Foundations/basements can be thermal mass components, easily making use of active or passive solar gain. They can be used for cooling moderation in the summer. Also, all local and neighboring utility companies give incentives for off-peak use including ETS systems.
Use of SIPs is labor efficient, energy efficient, well engineered for structural and Energy Code compliance. I think we have an array of great SIP producer companies who are in it for the long run who are innovating, refining, responding to environmental concerns, and provide great customer service. SIPs on a TF makes for rapid enclosure and easy, quick weather protection, plus if it's winter it's lots easier to bring the inside temp to a minimal comfort (thus efficiency level) for subcontractors, mechanicals and finish work to proceed.
We stopped using urethane foam core panels after the 1st time because of environmental and worker/worksite safety and waste problems.
We switched to EPS panels, early on learning to use cut-offs and cut-outs efficiently. We used our dust/chip collector and Sears W/D vacs to collect crumbled panel "Stuff" on job sites and "reused" it for various insulating purposes. An easy use was poring bagfuls of EPS crumbles from inside the attic of a church down into the voids of the hollow concrete block exterior walls while we were doing structural repairs to the steeple and some of the roof trusses. We won one of the earliest NYSTAR energy efficiency awards in our area for a house we built in Putnam County NY 1993 - '94. From the start of the 1/4 mile long driveway up the mountainside, to clearing site for house and septic system, and for construction of TF house enclosed w SIPs, full basement and stick framed 2-car garage, we took away 8 large garbage bags for disposal as non reusable, non recyclable waste. 8 garb bags for a whole new house - no dumpsters on site! Trees were harvested and milled into flooring and interior trim lumber and for firewood. Compost piles were started on site and used throughout he progress of the job and owners continued beyond. Most of the waste was plastic wrap from various materials and component packaging plus from electricians installation of wiring. We used a HRV system, gentle slow forced air circulation using electric heated water, made and stored during off-peak hours 12 hrs/day 7 days/week. It is sized to provide DHW also. Very comfortable and clean indoor environment w low cost of operation.
I like solid poured concrete w lots of steel for foundations, so we have used 2" x 2' x 8' T&G expanded polystyrene for exterior or interior foundation insulation. We always put sheetmetal flashing termite/vermin barriers under bottom of first level of SIPs.
I was inspired by Helen and Scott Nearing, "The Maple Sugar Book" etc for back to the land homesteading, have done community barn and house raisings. I have built stone foundations. I have done lots of retro-fitting of old buildings. And I know several people who have done straw bale houses - all "out in the sticks". Maybe it will become more popular with the current high unemployment and low availability of bank loans. The financial and economic systems we live under anger me lots, for many reasons - topic for a different thread...
Where to find clay ..... how to convince local building code officials straw bale w clay plaster will meet code ...? Enough for now, hope this is helpful. Going back outside to finish some new locust Craftsman style posts for handrail at steps and landing to my kitchen door. Handrail to be black walnut profiled on my shaper. Locust and walnut grown and harvested and milled within 25 miles of my house. Then continue on an engine swap into my International flatbed dump.
Looking fwd to reading everyone's posts on this topic.
Steve


Shine on!
Re: 2 structures?! [Re: counselorpaul] #23218 04/04/10 09:11 PM
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Waccabuc Offline
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I am a SIP fan, but not exclusively to other systems. I am in NYC metro area where full (or walkout) basements are expected, and labor costs are among the highest in the world. There are "Comparative market values" that have to be considered for resale, as "Real Estate" is a huge part of the economy here with the average time for change in ownership/sale of a house was under 4 yrs before the Recession. I emphasize the better value of a longer term investment of higher quality, better performing, lower maintenance, energy efficiency. Of course that eliminates "house flippers" and pushes people to "think smaller" than is the norm and hopefully consider what they really need in a house and home, and how to use limited financial and sweat equity resources. We all know that TF building is a small market sector that we encourage to grow - join the TFG and pay your dues!
I'll say again, that my FAVORITE TFG rendezvous project was 1989 Habitat for Humanity house building in York PA. We used SIPs there. Get a copy of "Raising the Roof" from the Guild online store - inspiring and instructional.
Foundations/basements can be thermal mass components, easily making use of active or passive solar gain. They can be used for cooling moderation in the summer. Also, all local and neighboring utility companies give incentives for off-peak use including ETS systems.
Use of SIPs is labor efficient, energy efficient, well engineered for structural and Energy Code compliance. I think we have an array of great SIP producer companies who are in it for the long run who are innovating, refining, responding to environmental concerns, and provide great customer service. SIPs on a TF makes for rapid enclosure and easy, quick weather protection, plus if it's winter it's lots easier to bring the inside temp to a minimal comfort (thus efficiency level) for subcontractors, mechanicals and finish work to proceed.
We stopped using urethane foam core panels after the 1st time because of environmental and worker/worksite safety and waste problems.
We switched to EPS panels, early on learning to use cut-offs and cut-outs efficiently. We used our dust/chip collector and Sears W/D vacs to collect crumbled panel "Stuff" on job sites and "reused" it for various insulating purposes. An easy use was poring bagfuls of EPS crumbles from inside the attic of a church down into the voids of the hollow concrete block exterior walls while we were doing structural repairs to the steeple and some of the roof trusses. We won one of the earliest NYSTAR energy efficiency awards in our area for a house we built in Putnam County NY 1993 - '94. From the start of the 1/4 mile long driveway up the mountainside, to clearing site for house and septic system, and for construction of TF house enclosed w SIPs, full basement and stick framed 2-car garage, we took away 8 large garbage bags for disposal as non reusable, non recyclable waste. 8 garb bags for a whole new house - no dumpsters on site! Trees were harvested and milled into flooring and interior trim lumber and for firewood. Compost piles were started on site and used throughout he progress of the job and owners continued beyond. Most of the waste was plastic wrap from various materials and component packaging plus from electricians installation of wiring. We used a HRV system, gentle slow forced air circulation using electric heated water, made and stored during off-peak hours 12 hrs/day 7 days/week. It is sized to provide DHW also. Very comfortable and clean indoor environment w low cost of operation.
I like solid poured concrete w lots of steel for foundations, so we have used 2" x 2' x 8' T&G expanded polystyrene for exterior or interior foundation insulation. We always put sheetmetal flashing termite/vermin barriers under bottom of first level of SIPs.
I was inspired by Helen and Scott Nearing, "The Maple Sugar Book" etc for back to the land homesteading, have done community barn and house raisings. I have built stone foundations. I have done lots of retro-fitting of old buildings. And I know several people who have done straw bale houses - all "out in the sticks". Maybe it will become more popular with the current high unemployment and low availability of bank loans. The financial and economic systems we live under anger me lots, for many reasons - topic for a different thread...
Where to find clay ..... how to convince local building code officials straw bale w clay plaster will meet code ...? Enough for now, hope this is helpful. Going back outside to finish some new locust Craftsman style posts for handrail at steps and landing to my kitchen door. Handrail to be black walnut profiled on my shaper. Locust and walnut grown and harvested and milled within 25 miles of my house. Then continue on an engine swap into my International flatbed dump.
Looking fwd to reading everyone's posts on this topic.
Steve



Last edited by Waccabuc; 04/04/10 09:16 PM.

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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #23219 04/04/10 10:40 PM
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Tim,
U-value is the inverse of R-value. I've seen it mostly used w window values. e.g. a window or sheet of thermo-pane with an R-value of 3 will have a U-value of 0.33.
Steve


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: bmike] #23220 04/04/10 10:55 PM
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Waccabuc Offline
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Hey Mike,
How about snow, for igloo walls?
Also sawdust was the vernacular insulating material of choice for ice houses for 100+ yrs around here. Most I've seen are dbl studded 12" thick walls. I've seen small backyard farmstead icehouses built on top of a deep pit into the ground as well as commercial icehouses 36' x 80' w 18'h sidewalls. When no longer used and empty they are legendary in local Fire Department memory if subjected to arson. With good roof maint and overhangs to keep walls dry there is no performance degradation. Sawdust fill could be considered precursor to various blown in and sticky cellulose forms.

What else? fur, leaves. feathers, dried horse manure?
Steve


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Waccabuc] #23222 04/04/10 11:54 PM
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I have been baffled for some time as to what the various dirt pits are around my abandoned farm land. They seem like old cellar holes but not enough rocks, the dirt is pulled up and around the pit. Could be an old ice house spot as another choice. They vary in size, most are the size of a small car, the hole that is.

I am putting single pane, old glass, salvaged windows in the new section I am adding on to my existing house. I will put insulated shutters or some such thing on them if I find them cold.

The performance of the straw cabin is OK. We do not use it a lot in the winter. The children and friends spent the night in it this past winter. A fire was build earlier in the day and it was fine for them through the night, I just asked and they said it was fine no problem. That is coming from a 15 year old with other things on his mind. I want to believe a clay sealing layer would cut down on air infiltration and keep the straw smell to a minimum, maybe.

I would not worry about the rough texture, as I would still board the side walls and stud and side the exterior, you would not see the infill system. Yes, I would have to think of the dryablity of the clay coated bale against the boarded wall. I suspect it would dry as it is not the complete thickness of the wall which is soaked and needs drying. It may call for a test wall.

As for SIPs, I would rather play with a different material. They sure do have their sensible side, no arguments there, I like the wrap and strap system as well, this is what I am using on my plank walled addition. I switched due to the time frame of the project, there is none, and I can apply foam to the walls any time it arises. I am still planning on clay infilled interior walls, chips and slip in a studded wall with clay plaster.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #23227 04/05/10 08:00 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Tim,

I have similar pits to the ones that you describe in my woodlot and these are generally described in archeological terms as being sawpits. Exactly how these pits were used in the conversion process is not completely clear nor have I yet seen a photograph or illustration of how this worked but the top of the pit rim tends to be leveled to accomodate bearers. I also have one pit that is only 2 feet deep and might well be a hewing pit so that the log does not need to be raised but can be simply rolled at ground level into position for hewing.

I can take some photos if you want.

Regards

Ken Hume


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Ken Hume] #23230 04/05/10 10:52 AM
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Sure Ken, I would like to see even another possibility. Photos here or e-mail. Thanks.

I have been picking rocks on our blueberry field and filling some of the holes in.

Tim

Re: 2 structures?! [Re: TIMBEAL] #23231 04/05/10 11:44 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Tim,

Woodland archeology is a field that is just emerging and until you have a clearer idea of what these pits are all about it might be prudent not to fill them such that as much of the original feature and evidence is preserve (that's preserved and not conserved).

I shall search my archive for photos.

Regards

Ken Hume


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Re: 2 structures?! [Re: Ken Hume] #23246 04/06/10 12:42 AM
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Ken, I think we are drifting off topic, but I don't care. I have had local historical minded folks come and look at the pits/humps from the local university. Over the years they have been used as dumps. I see the rocks/boulder as a form of preservation, no one will stuff other junk into it any more and I can drive safely over the field. I have thought about this for 18 years, as the first rocks went into it I cringed. I have one set aside and have not touched it other than keeping the brush from growing up.

It will be interesting to see a photo for comparison.

Tim

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