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Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Dave Shepard] #19004 04/05/09 09:01 AM
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Ken Hume Offline OP
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Hi Dave,

The elm used might well be either English Elm (Ulmus Procera) or Wytch Elm (Ulmus Glabra)- its very difficult to say which for sure. I had both of these species growing in my woodland which is less than 10 miles from this cruck framed building until 2 years ago when they secumbed to Dutch Elm disease again and are all now standing dead snags. These trees were last killed by dutch elm disease back in 1973/4 and have since then sprouted back from the roots which remain unaffected. My trees reached approximately the same size in 30+ years as has been employed in this cruck and so Dutch elm disease might be nothing new. The heartwood timber of this tree is entirely unaffected by this blight. The Dutch Elm disease fungus results in a tyloses of the growing cells in much the same way as happens in oak so it might well be that this disease inadvertently contribute towards its apparent longevity ?



I am attaching a cross section photo of the cruck concerned so that you get a better impression of the tree sizes employed. These are not much greater than 7 inches across the (flat) face though the diameter will be greater.

Please also check out the thatch which has at least 5 distinct layers showing. I measured the width of the thatch that extends out from the rear of this property to be just under 5 feet.

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 04/05/09 09:04 AM.

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Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Ken Hume] #19006 04/05/09 10:10 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Ken, so the thatch is left in place and a new layer is added? Is this standard practice? I am guessing a hundred years worth? The lower layers seem much thinner, with the exception of one in the middle, the light gray layer.

Tim

Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: TIMBEAL] #19007 04/05/09 12:45 PM
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Ken Hume Offline OP
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Hi Tim,

Some thatched roofs still have smoke blackening on the underside of the thatch from the days when the open hall fire was burning on the hall floor with the building open all the way to the rafters and apex of the roof. This practice ceased about 1550 - 1600. That is what happened inside this building but unfortunately we cannot see the underside of the thatch due to the plaster ceilings. Ideally thatch should just be raked down to remove any mouldy or composted crud and then a new dress top coat applied. In time this builds up to form quite a thickness. A long straw roof like this will need to be recoated every 25 years or so thus your guess as to overall age is probably quite a good estimate. It is now quite frowned upon to remove all of the thatch but eventually the weight of the thatch can become quite overpowering for slender rafters and breakage of same and / or localised collapse of sections of the roof is not unknown.

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 04/05/09 12:46 PM.

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Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Ken Hume] #19008 04/05/09 02:16 PM
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Dave Shepard Offline
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That is very interesting. From what I gather, thatch was used to some small degree in our first period houses, but I have never seen a thatched building.

I've been studying cruck frames a little lately. I am hoping to take Jack Sobon's cruck workshop at Heartwood this summer. Should be great fun.


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Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Ken Hume] #19013 04/05/09 08:54 PM
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OurBarns1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ken Hume


The elm used might well be either English Elm (Ulmus Procera) or Wytch Elm (Ulmus Glabra)- its very difficult to say which for sure....


Regards

Ken Hume



Hi Ken,

Sounds like a lot of fun poking around that building. I was wondering if you have some tricks you've come up w/ to identify old wood.

Many times I'll be poking around an old barn here, and though I know my area woods species quite well, time makes them look different. And "old growth" is not quite the same (does not look the same) as what I've grown up with either.

No doubt, the blackend faces of those timbers you're looking at must make it tough to tell at first what you've got.

Any suggestions / tricks you (or anyone else) can share?



Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: OurBarns1] #19014 04/05/09 09:14 PM
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OurBarns1 Offline
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...moreover, "extinct species" that I never grew up with, such as chestnut, is an example of another variable.

It's tempting to assign a species to any wood that I see. But like chestnut there are some woods that just aren't used anymore-- I never worked them, etc...


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: OurBarns1] #19016 04/05/09 10:00 PM
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Ken Hume Offline OP
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Hi Dave,

I note that you are in Mass. and so if you want to see some thatch then you should head out towards Cape Cod where there is a shopping arcade that is thatched. I have a photo of this somewhere. If you check out Abbott Lowell Cummins book on the Framed Houses of Mass Bay he lists a number buildings that were thatched during early times in the establishment of New England but soon thatch was outlawed for fire reasons and still is in downtown Boston (and London).

Please give my regards to Jack and see if you can prise an email adress out of him !

Don,

Elm is an easy wood to identify. It has little mini growth rings between the main annual rings whereas oak simply has early and late wood. It also tends to spiral dramatically back and forth along the length of the trunk. (White) Oak has very obvious medullary rays which will show up quite easily when inspecting a halved timber. Bug damage is also a good indicator. White oak heartwood will not be as affected as the sapwood whereas elm will suffer bug damage right across the sap & heartwood which in any event is hard to reliably distinguish. It tends to be much more difficult to identify softwoods. Knots are a good indicator.

Smoke tar (creosote) coatings can mask some of the clues but it helps to know the trees in the woods and especially if you can positvely identify a tree before chopping it up for the firewood pile.

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 04/05/09 10:04 PM.

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Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Ken Hume] #19017 04/05/09 10:46 PM
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Dave Shepard Offline
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I'm not sure there is an email address to prise. smile


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Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Dave Shepard] #19024 04/06/09 01:50 PM
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timberwrestler Offline
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No, there's no email address for Jack. It's all hand tools and no computers.

Re: Historic Building Photos [Re: Ken Hume] #19025 04/06/09 03:12 PM
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OurBarns1 Offline
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Ken,

I guess I was interested in where you look in a frame for clues about the wood species. Sills or rafters kind of thing? Do you ever slice off a piece w/ a knife to expose a fresh surface?

I bet knots are a good indicator / clue in softwood.
And I've found bark is sometimes left on a waney edge, which helps.

No email for Sobon, but there must be another TTRAGer looking in who can lend an idea on wood identification after it's been aging in a frame for 200, 300, even 600 years.

TTRAGers... Hello? Anybody out there? Your craft needs you.


And what's the R-value of 5 layers of thatch? Pretty good I'm guessing. Interesting discussion.


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


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