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Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #18638 03/17/09 03:42 PM
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OurBarns1 Offline
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Ken,

The cut nail is still being manufactured, more as on oddity I suppose. We've discussed Tremont Nail (longtime manufacturer in Massachusetts) here on the forum before. And cut "flooring nails" are readily available here in the US in most lumber centers, but they're not mainstream. I can only speak for this side of the Atlantic.

Tremont states it makes "steel cut nails for restoration projects and remodeling." I think Northern Hewer is seeking when the practice of using cut nails became secondary to wire nails (common nails).

NH, I think you still have questions remaining about time periods, usage of one nail type over the other, correct?
Nice comment by the way: "you're never too old to learn."



And I would think Chris How's paper would fit nicely in an issue of Timber Framing. Not your run of the mill feature.







Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: OurBarns1] #18649 03/18/09 12:44 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hi everyone looking in--

I hope that everyone is learning a little something from this exchange of very important research information especially those that will carry the torch on.

Talking about expanding one's knowledge this forum has to be one of the best available, no library can provide the exchange of ideas both historical and of a more modern nature as well as what you will find exchanged right here on this TFG chat room. A subject or muliple subjects are right here take your pick.

Take this nail thread, for many years I always felt that there was much more to the story than what I was able squeeze out from my research, and due to this medium the story of nails to me has become to a great extent more fully explained but there still are some gaps to fill in there always are.

I will admit it is coming a little late for me to put into general use but from time to time I am asked as a senior knowledgeable person to comment on as I was just lately the dating of nails in a structure that was being dismantled by a private owner.

More than ever now as I gazed on that structure I can honestly say that my reply will be as accurate as just about any one else in this area of expertise, so as I said above you are never too old to learn, and if asked to I will share openly with those that truly are in need of advice.

Thanks to all that have participated and to the TFG for providing the chat medium.

This does not mean I am closing this ongoing chat about nails I certainly am not and I am looking forward to additiional information.

I still do find it a tad bit confusing as I read through Chris's paper but as time goes along I want to study it thoroughly and try and digest all the information it contains, and I ask that others also do the same. A nice discussion of its content would I suspect broaden everyone's knowledge base, and as I sit here contemplating things wouldn't it be nice if its contents could be made available to aspiring historical restoration experts in the field of preservation technology. As well it would be very useful to those that have a close contact with interested public visitors, and supervisors of historic trades persons that need this knowledge base to perform their role properly.

I for one feel an excitement as I visit this medium every night mainly because of everyone's seemingly anxiety to share experiences with just plain interested people or hard core TFG building professionals providing the many varied approaches to this trade called "Timberframing" of yesterday, today and those that will be coming on board tomorrow and the years to follow.

Well enough said for tonight I welcome any additional thoughts on this subject

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #18656 03/18/09 03:13 PM
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Well said Northern Hewer.

I look forward to checking in with this forum each day too. You're right, there is value and great potential here in the forum. Hopefully it will be seen as a more mainstream way guild members can interact. When forums began, I think many relegated them to "fringe" mediums. Kind of like e-mail in its infancy: it was a neat thing, but people didn't really take it seriously, or instinctively shunned it. Now, e-mail is the preferred way of communication for just about everybody.

I have been enjoying this nail topic, and it seems naturally to lead to other areas of study. One of these is lumber. How's article talks about the early nails (which were blunt) having a hard time piercing hardwood, thus they were more suited to softwood applications. We take it for granted nails come pointed today, but pointing them was obviously a time-consuming or involved process until more modern times. Ironically, softwood is the lion’s share of lumber today and 99% of nails are pointed.

I guess we can say stud framing is considered modern in terms of our outlook on wood frame construction. Balloon framing appears to have been developed in Chicago / Midwest in the early to mid-19th century. I suppose early iron cut nails were used to nail the softwood frames together. Most of what I've uncovered through reading suggests pointed wire nails (what we refer to as "common nails") became mainstream in United States around 1900. Therefore, can we assume older house frames were fashioned with cut nails? Anyone out there who can verify?

I wonder what the situation was like in England and Europe. Did stud framing gain ground there in the 19th century? And what kind of nails were used there around 1900?

I know regional variations abound. Here in New England they say the area held on to timber framing longer than many areas of the United States simply because we love tradition and there was a plentiful supply of good-sized timber.

What was the situation like in your neck of the woods there in Canada, Northern Hewer? Was stud framing a late bloomer? Maybe too, it depends on whether you're talking about houses or barns.


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: OurBarns1] #18662 03/18/09 07:04 PM
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Gabel Offline
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Originally Posted By: OurBarns1

I guess we can say stud framing is considered modern in terms of our outlook on wood frame construction. Balloon framing appears to have been developed in Chicago / Midwest in the early to mid-19th century. I suppose early iron cut nails were used to nail the softwood frames together. Most of what I've uncovered through reading suggests pointed wire nails (what we refer to as "common nails") became mainstream in United States around 1900. Therefore, can we assume older house frames were fashioned with cut nails? Anyone out there who can verify?



Don,

Houses around here that were built ca 1880-1910 were balloon framed and used cut nails. These dates are a general rule of thumb with the usual exceptions and local variations. My house was built in the late 20's and it used wire nails.

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Gabel] #18664 03/18/09 08:52 PM
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Will Truax Offline
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The earliest stick built house hereabouts is this one framed in ’46 if memory serves.

http://www.tupelohall.com/TourTupelo.html

A presenter at the Rindge conference had been given the ledger books of the carpenter who framed it. Interestingly he kept the timberesque raising bee in play and framed walls ahead and stood up both the house and barn in one day when the extra manpower was available. All this is known through his highly detailed ledgers.

It stuck in my mind because the same carpenter continued to timberframe barns churches and townhalls and framed the town hall in my home town, after the above house was built.

It is pictured here scroll down to the last picture - http://www.greatnhhomes4sale.com/Litchfield

The next town over from where the stickbuilt house stands. If any of you have read Thoreau’s, A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers you may have seen a photo of the church which shares the same parking lot, though formerly sat across the road and had to be moved when the Merrimack changed its course (it used to be a commonly told ghost story when I was a boy that the empty graveyard was haunted by those whose bodies had been allowed to wash down the river as the riverbank was washed away) I grew up in the woods on Watt’s Brook about a half mile from its confluence with the river, the town encompasses the finest bottom land in the state and still has farms aplenty despite its population expanding multi-thousand fold since my boyhood – 400 souls then 8,000+ now.

All these buildings are I’m sure, plumb full of cut nails, as was the 1821 timberframed Parsonage we restored this past year, everything from teeny 5d’s attaching the clapboards to 5” spikes in the framing holding butt cogs in their housings


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Will Truax] #18666 03/19/09 12:08 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hi everyone tonight:

Reading over the many remarks in the above posts especially the post concerning the blunt cut nails the following comes to my mind.

I of course received a great deal of my carpentry education from my father who in his own right was a great, and I say this with no reservation "all around good carpenter".

One thing that he taught me along with many other tricks, was the following:

"son if you are under the impression that the nail will split the 2 by 4 or what ever you are nailing just take the nail and
blunt the end by giving it a few whacks on the pointed end with the hammer"

You know it worked every time it would go right through and not split the stud or what ever you were using.

I suspect that the blunt square nails were better to prevent splitting on account of their blunt ends than the pointed modern nails. This is of course if you drove them into the wood with their thickness parallel with the grain.

one of their bad features though was that as the blunt cut nail emerged on the opposite side it usually came through with a good chunk of the surface wood.

Thanks everyone for the remarks in the above posts

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #18670 03/19/09 07:50 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Will & NH,

I think that Will has made the case rather nicely for making more folks aware that nails are employed aplenty in timber frame construction and thoughts that timber frames only employ wooden pegs is a misguided fallacy.

I am no nail expert but a thought that often passes through my mind is that generally the grain direction of one piece being nailed to another is at 90 degrees e.g. in the case of floor boards being nailed to joists. That being the case the nail has to be able to perform both with and across the grain so what would be the preferred nail orientation when nailing down floor boards ?

Is the primary difference between round pointed and square blunt that the former penetrates through the wood forcing it apart i.e. splitting it whereas the blunt square nail shears the wood effectively making its own "pre drilled" path as per NH's observations?

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 03/19/09 07:51 AM.

Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Gabel] #18674 03/19/09 02:10 PM
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Thanks Gabel

Seems your "southern" observations support general New England timelines, which is interesting.


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #18675 03/19/09 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: northern hewer
Hi everyone tonight:

One thing that he taught me along with many other tricks, was the following:

"son if you are under the impression that the nail will split the 2 by 4 or what ever you are nailing just take the nail and
blunt the end by giving it a few whacks on the pointed end with the hammer"

NH



My Grandfather taught me the same trick. I blunt more nails than not when driving them, it seems.
They cut through rather than split the wood.

Another thought along this line... I have burned hardwood pallets from time to time. When cleaning out the woodstove the nails left behind are often pointless, totally blunt. This must be so they don't split the top boards at the ends.

Nailed by machine, the age old problem of cut nails not piercing hardwood is a moot point.


Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Will Truax] #18676 03/19/09 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Will Truax


All these buildings are I’m sure, plumb full of cut nails, as was the 1821 timberframed Parsonage we restored this past year, everything from teeny 5d’s attaching the clapboards to 5” spikes in the framing holding butt cogs in their housings



Will, what is a "butt cog?"


This 1911 barn here in Maine is an interesting specimen in terms of nails. All the bracing is nailed w/ common wire nails. The braces are not even mortised, just butted to the timbers. There are also nails at prominent joint locations. Bolts / threaded rod, too. This barn is in sad condition, not quite even 100 years old. They built it over a very wet area and the foundation has cracked and heaved considerably.

I have found wire nails in barn joinery here in these 1900-era buildings. It always leaves me a bit disappointed as it heralded the end of tradition in timber framing technique...















Don Perkins
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to know the trees...


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