Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
#18961
04/03/09 02:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 103
DKR
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I'm looking for a good handsaw to finish tennon cuts where the circular saw won't reach. I've been focuing on Japanese pull saws, but I have no idea which to order. Does anyone have any recommendations for large 8 x 10 tenon cuts? Thanks.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: DKR]
#18967
04/03/09 04:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Gabel
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I would like to speak up on behalf of Western saws for timber framing. If you get a couple of good old ones(easy to find on ebay and tool dealers) and learn to resharpen them yourself (only takes patience and a steady hand, you have a tool that will last your whole career instead of a long series of "disposable" saws that bring no joy in their use.
Plus, I've found Japanese saws too small for serious timber work. (I'm sure there will be rebuttal, but I have my opinion, too).
That being said, I like the western style Stanley 26" sharp tooth saw -- it is disposable, but it is aggressive and a good value.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: Gabel]
#18975
04/03/09 11:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
bmike
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+ 1 on this. I have an assortment of Japanese style saws - nothing 'timber sized' - the ones I have are very useful for furniture, small scale timber work, and random carpentry work. And I have one that I use for field work - trimming pegs, etc.
But for cutting timber in the shop - I'm a big fan of a full size Stanley saw for tenon work. Cuts flesh as easily as wood. I think the one in my box now has the same blade pattern as the 'sharp tooth' - but is definitely not disposable.
Wooden handle, feels good in the hand, and you can play a tune on it.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: bmike]
#18977
04/04/09 12:59 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
TIMBEAL
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Try searching Docking Saw here on the forum. A docking saw with 4-5 teeth per inch is the way to go. You may even find that skill saw collecting dust.
Tim
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: TIMBEAL]
#18980
04/04/09 02:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 895
daiku
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How about for ripping in green wood?
-- Clark Bremer Minneapolis Proud Member of the TFG
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: daiku]
#18986
04/04/09 05:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
Gabel
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I have several old Disston rip saws ranging from a 26" 6ppi D8 to a 30" 4 ppi. I don't know which model it is, but it's old -- has a nib.
The big one I would put up against any rip saw of any pattern. It takes a man to use it, but it will flat out move some wood.
Last edited by Gabel; 04/04/09 05:38 PM.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: DKR]
#18995
04/04/09 07:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,685
Jim Rogers
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Quite some time ago, while I was visiting with Jack Sobon he mentioned to me that he had lost his handsaw sharpener man. This elderly man had be sharpening Jack's handsaws for many years, and it was his time to go to the great saw sharpening spot in heaven.....rest in peace and thanks for the many years of great service....... Without a saw sharpener on hand, Jack had to find a new saw to use for his timber framing projects. He told me he tried many different "new" handsaws and finally found one that he liked very much. It is a Stanley SharpTooth handsaw. The specs are: it is 26" long, with 11TPI (tips per inch) or 12 point. It is for all wood types and is considered a "Fine Finish Saw". It can be used as a cross cut saw as well as a rip saw. Jack had mentioned to me that these are at times hard to find, and he suggested we stock a few of them for anyone who can't seem to find them in their local stores.... We have one on hand now if anyone should need one..... Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: Jim Rogers]
#18997
04/04/09 11:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
TIMBEAL
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I only rip if it is necessary other wise the axe is employed. The docking saw for cross cuts and in some instances I love the shark saw.
That is interesting, Jack doesn't sharpen his saws.
Tim
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: TIMBEAL]
#19003
04/05/09 01:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 106
Ray Gibbs
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Google "Medallion Toolworks". They custom make western saws to your own specs.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: Ray Gibbs]
#19033
04/06/09 09:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,124
Mark Davidson
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There are some bigger japanese ryobi saws out there. I use a japanese blade I like from tashiro's hardware in seattle: http://www.tashirohardware.com/Tashiros_Hardware_LLC/Home.htmlThe blade I use is called the Timber blade, with a King handle. I've gone through quite a few of these now, in my shop they last between 1 and 2 years. The western saws are often the way to for the deeper, heavier cuts....
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: Ray Gibbs]
#19057
04/09/09 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 195
frwinks
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Google "Medallion Toolworks". They custom make western saws to your own specs. saw some of his saws at a tool show last weekend... I think I even drooled a lil' on some of them
there's a thin line between hobby and mental illness
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: DKR]
#19221
04/15/09 04:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff
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My favorite Japanese saw for following up after the circular saw is the Silky Master 330 . It has a replaceable blade, the handle is the same as the smaller 270 & 300 sizes of Master Saws so there are several blade options.
Not all who wander are lost.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: Mark Davidson]
#20215
06/09/09 05:46 PM
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Posts: 603
brad_bb
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I just learned the proper technique for using a handsaw in a timberframe workshop, to get precise, square cuts. I was using a Stanley Sharptooth saw. I am so suprised at how well you can do with a proper hand saw, and how fast they are. I'm now questioning which would be faster, and which would require less work, hand sawing, or circ saw and parring to the line? When you are comfortable with the hand saw, there isn't much clean up needed after sawing, to my surprise. In my opinion, parring is more work than sawing.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: brad_bb]
#20217
06/09/09 06:44 PM
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TIMBEAL
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Brad, If you are staying away from the line with a power saw and cleaning up with a chisel, the hand saw, cut to the center of the line is right there with the power saw. I would and do choose the handsaw. If you are cutting the line with the power saw and that is it, it has to be faster. I am sure you use less energy hand sawing to the line and being done with it. I have not done a lot with dry, old hard wood, but I think it would still apply and if you had to pare to the line I can see that being a lousy job, I would reach for the hand saw in that case as well.
Tim
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: brad_bb]
#20236
06/10/09 04:17 PM
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bmike
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or circ saw and parring to the line? When you are comfortable with the hand saw, there isn't much clean up needed after sawing, to my surprise. In my opinion, parring is more work than sawing. why pare? cut to the line. split it. use a guide if needed. when you are comfortable (or develop techniques) with a power saw, there isn't much cleanup needed. but, work with hand tools if you want. its all good.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: bmike]
#20238
06/10/09 05:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
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TIMBEAL
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If the stock is odd and twisted and you are using a power saw, this may lead to the need for clean up, while a hand saw has no base to follow the irregularities of the wood. Wise use of both tools is proper.
Tim
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: TIMBEAL]
#20239
06/10/09 05:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
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bmike
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If the stock is odd and twisted and you are using a power saw, this may lead to the need for clean up, while a hand saw has no base to follow the irregularities of the wood. Wise use of both tools is proper.
Tim true words, for sure.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: bmike]
#20240
06/10/09 06:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
mo
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Brad, Does the technique you learned look similar to this one? How bout the rest of you all? Switch sides of the stick between 2 and 3.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: mo]
#20242
06/11/09 12:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard
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Yes mo, that is similar to what I was taught. Only difference is I cut the third segment with the saw on the diagonal to match the second cut.
Member, Timber Framers Guild
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: Dave Shepard]
#20245
06/11/09 06:39 AM
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Posts: 850
mo
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hey Dave,
yes. that way the saw has reference.
Cheers.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: mo]
#20248
06/11/09 07:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 603
brad_bb
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Sort of. First cut on top just to make a small groove. Then cut the vertical down to the corner. Then saw at the 45 angle until your saw reaches both corners (upper right and lower left in that pic). Then score the other vertical and cut down sawing horizontally to finish the cut. I actually cut some of the lower corners before finishing the cut to avoid tear out there.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: brad_bb]
#20250
06/11/09 10:23 AM
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TIMBEAL
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I may have a slightly different approach. I saw across the top, I am only sawing the lines I can see at this point, I don't roll the timber, I did at one time I am always looking to shorten the work up. So, across the top and down the side I am facing, on bigger timber I end up kneeling on the floor, I them move to the other side and place the saw in the kerf as an assistant guide to proceed down that face, the bottom I just wing it, it has to come off where it is.
When you guys are cutting down the verticals are you facing the line or looking over the timber and cutting the line on the face away from you?
If the timber has tenons I will be using the french snap it the grain allows, so I am not cutting all the way through, otherwise it is chainsaw time for the butt end of the tenon. I do like the ends of the top plates cut with the handsaw, no cleanup and the accuracy I need, which is where I use the above method.
Chainsaws are cordless tools and if the old timers had them they would have used them, right?
Tim
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: TIMBEAL]
#20262
06/12/09 03:03 AM
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brad_bb
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I'm definitely on the same side of the timber as the vertical line I'm cutting. You have to be on the same side of the line to get a good view of what you are cutting in my opinon. Looking over the timber at the opposite vertical face is too difficult to be accurate me thinks. Definitely don't overcut a shoulder. The over cut lines won't be pretty. I saw down close and then give the block a whack with my mallet, and clean the corner with my chisel.
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Re: Hand Saws for Large Tenon Cuts
[Re: DKR]
#20267
06/12/09 11:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 53
kfhines
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AHH nothing is more comfortable in the hand as my old hand saws. The ergonomics of the old saws seems to eliminate the fatigue I get when using the newer saws, any body else notice this? I like them, and they are sharp but at 26 inches they are not quite long enough for me.
Sorry a little of track. Tim I go about it pretty much the same way you do. I start on the top far corner work across the face and down the side sawing only the lines I can see. Then move to the opposite side using the existing kerf as a guide saw down the vertical face. With all things being equal the saw should come out on the bottom line.
Always striving to split the line. Never purposely sawing out side the line, paring end grain sucks!
kfhines
"When dictatorship is a fact, revolution becomes a right." Victor Hugo
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