How are good are old broad axes to buy? Does their metal get brittle over time as can happen in chisels? I have a Granfors broad axe and like it . But I want to get an old broad axe for use in my work. Are heavily rusted broad axes worth buying?
I got some pitting on my new Barr Slick. What could be the best way to remove it? Are Traditional Timber Framers safe on the forum now?

Come on over, the weather's fine!

They say electrolysis is a good way to clean heavy rust on old tools. Never done it myself, but here's some info and pictures of the process:

http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/nsaeta/electrolysis.html#setup

Buying old stuff to reuse has a certain romance, even spirit, I suppose... honoring those before. Some say the old steel is better, too.

I have a fabulous (and not at all virtual) broad axe that I picked up at a flea market. $60 and the handle was intact. Upon cleaning it up and getting it sharpened it looked to me like the cutting edge was forged into the body, as there are 2 distinct colors where the 2 meet. There is a maker's mark barely visible, and after lots of elbow grease getting the sharp end sharp again it served me just fine for a project or two...

Pitting? Where? On or near the cutting edge? Or on the tool body? 3m Scotchbrite and some WD 40 works well for minor blemishes, or use the 3m pad and the slurry left over from water stone sharpening (usually just slurry from the fine stone...) - but if its near the working edge be careful not to distort the face...


Yes, traditional timber framers are quite safe. Just be sure to back up all your files on a regular basis.

I have some broad axe heads and one with a handle available. Also, some replacement handles if you need one.

I'll be taking the collection to TTRAG this weekend and having Jack Sobon and Mike Beaudry to inspect and cast an opinion on their condition and value....

Hi cedar:

There certainly is nothing wrong with a antique broadaxe head providing it has the following characteristics:

--It should have an ample amount of tool steel yet visible along the conjoing line with the more maleable head steel (where the two were forged together in the axe works).
--The cutting edge should be flat on one edge and beveled on the opposite side.
--there should be no noticeable chips on the cutting edge, usually if there has been one you will see where extra filing has taken place
--when you take a file and applying alittle pressure as you push it across the tool steel edge it should not cut into the steel but slide on the surface
--if the tool has a handle in it place it in one of your hands and gently tap the cutting head with a piece of metal, it should ring out like a bell if the tempering is right, if it sounds dead then quickly put it down and move on!!!


I used an antique broadaxe for years it was one that was used in our family for 3 generatons, and could easily go for another 3 with proper care.

One of the worst things that can happen to any wood working tool is for it to stay in contact with mother earth for any extended period of time, it will quickly remove the tempering and make the tool useless.

Another thing that is extremely bad is to overheat the cutting steel usually by applying it against a powered rotating sharpening stone, this friction will heat small areas red hot and make that part real brittle. Usually what happens is that you will see a small particle break away like a cresent moon in shape. Sometimes it will anneal a small area and cause it to not retain a sharp edge. It is best to avoid powered emery stones.

As a final test you should place a straight edge (like a steel square) against the flat side of the blade parallel with the cutting edge, you should notice a slight bit of crown to the flat side at or near the centre line of the blade, this is normal, and is necessary to do good work.

I hope this helps

NH

NH:
We have this broad axe head:



And it has this small chip out of it:



Also, as you mentioned the back side does have a small curve to it, as shown here:



So, here are my questions to you.

What can we do about finishing restoring this axe head?

Should we continue to remove metal until this chip is gone?
Or is it usable in this condition?

Also, I've heard from several different notable sources about what size axe head is the best.

One person says a 7" or 8" head is best, and another person says that the 11" or 12" is all they've ever used.

Is one size better than the other, and/or is it totally personal preference...?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Jim Rogers

Hi everyone

Well Jim for starters I would look very closely at the axe head to see where the axe is in its useable life is presently, As I look at your picture of the axe, and being it is presented to the readers on its beveled side it is very hard to ascertain how mch tool steel is left.

But from what I can gather it appears that there is not much tool steel left looking at it from this side. If you turn the axe head over you will have a better view of the conjoining line between the tool steel and the mild head steel.

What I would do if there is yet some tool steel left is this:

--make sure the tempering is good
--just file out the chip and make it as good a cutting edge as possible
--Go ahead and use it, eventually the chip will disappear from filing and sharpening the blade, Now you may not see this happen even if you used it every day for the rest of your life but eventually it will disappear
--I use a 10 inch head and this seems to be just right for me and the size of man that i am, now my partner who weighed in at 300+ used a 12 inch broadaxe a much heavier head to raise and use continuously

Personnaly when the axe head gets down to 7 or 8 inches in width in my books it is not a suitable width, these axes were not meant for men to use maybe boys. Most men that I knew could easily use 10 inch heads and up in width.

Some really small men were quite strong in their arms and could hold their own with larger men when it comes to strength and using their arms.

Here i am getting carried away again getting back to your question

I would take emery cloths and wd40 and keep polishing the head to get a good patina on the surface of the steel, then for storage wipe on a light coat of machine oil.

I hope this helps,

NH

Thanks for your comments.

I showed the axe head to a fellow doing a hewing demonstration at the TTRAG event this past weekend.
He suggested the head should be sharpened back to remove the chip as it will create a tear at this chip point when it is used to hew a timber.

Some by standers suggested that this tear could be used as a signature mark on the timbers to show who hewed it, when the frame was inspected years in the future.

Jim Rogers

The pitting on my new Barr slick is on the neck where the handle goes in. There is more pitting on the face of the slick too. I got the rust out. My cat engraved it for me!!!! Good thing I love my Persian female kitty!!! She is my shop and truck mascot. How can I get the pitting out of the slick? My wife got me the Barr slick as a gift. So anything I could do to fix it up would be helpful.
Thx. Eric

The pitting if deep probably won't come out unless you surface a wide area... is the 'face' on the flat cutting side, or top side?

I wouldn't worry about it if it doesn't affect the function of the tool.

And be sure to remind kitty that tool boxes are not litter boxes...

I would suggest that an axe with a chip out of it leaves a crappy signature, like a bad pen.
instead of seeing the quality of the axework, you see the scratches left by the chip.

I had a 12 inch north american style broadaxe, I cut it down to a 9 inch and it's still to heavy for me compared to my Austrian goosewing... what a wimp!

I would not try to restore a broadaxe or any tool with rust pitting on the back, or flat side of the blade. Some pitting on the bevel side is not a big deal.

that;s cool- i think a lot of axemen started by changing the blade with a file. modification- to relieve the front corner to give it a bit of finesse up front. just to tease the wood.

Mark- maybe the axe was a foot level kind? and you are a beast. the old CN axes up here are the 12 inch big ones and i'm guessing intended to be used differently than the Penn-syl-vanians did. my sense these are more chopping-type axes.

bang on that the flat side of the axe needs to be flat

It's not that I would choose to place a nick in the blade of my axe, but after a bad fall from timber to concrete my beloved slick was used for some time with a nick in the blade, we worked it out eventually. There was an old church here in Machiasport that was taken down, the timber was hewn and on a number of the members you could see that the same axe was used on these timbers, the hewing was fine, the nicks, there were two side by side, did not destroy the work. I have ever since called them railroad tracks. I found appreciation and sympathy in those track.

The nick in Jim's axe is a rather large nick verging on a chunk. Does anyone have an opinion of the quality of the steel that would yield such a nick? I tend to favor a softer steel, one that a file will cut. I have seen a number of draw knives that are so hard they will dull a file and they are only sharpenable with a stone. All my tools must pass the file test.

Tim

I feel obligated to interject here. I don't claim to be anywhere near Mark's level of Timberframer, not even close. However, as a hobby TF'r I think there are a lot of great tools out there which can be bought relatively cheaply, though they may not be up to the standards required by a professional tradesman. I've got a couple nice Witherbys which had some pitting on the non-bevel side and they serve me well for my level of TF'ing. Sure, they needed some work when they arrived, but for beginners such as myself they're great additions to my kit.

I just wouldn't want a budding TF'r to think that anything with some rust on it is junk and that he/she has to buy all their tools from Barr (even though they are amazing).

I'd tend to agree with Mark. A tool pitted on the flat,, anywhere close to where the edges might meet after several sharpenings is going to be hard to give a nice edge on.

It really depends on the individual item. I see dozens of examples at ontario antique shows each year,, and haven't brought one home yet. They tend to be so pitted,, it wouldn't be worth the energy. Even with time on your hands. my 2 cents!

I am now working on a axe recently brought back from France. It weighs in at 3 pounds with a 14" blade, a type of T-axe, it is very thin and has rust pits on the nearly flat back. It can receive a handle from either end of the eye. I have cleaned it up with a stone enough to test the steal, I am satisfied enough to proceed and take it on with a belt sander to bring the back clean once more. This head not only was pitted but it had flakes wanting to come off. If this cleans up I feel it will be well worth the effort applied.

Tim

Tim, may I trouble you for a photo of the T Axe?

I will have some this evening.

Tim

This shows how thin the blade is, it doesn't leave much mass for cleaning up the pits.
[img]http://[IMG]http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q393/timber500/DSC01021.jpg[/img][/img]

A second picture showing the 15" blade. [img]http://[IMG]http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q393/timber500/DSC01023.jpg[/img][/img]

Tim

reposting Tim's images......

that's so beautiful

self-evidently well-worthwhile


i don't think we've answered the question about the chipped axe. could it be used as an initial process, with another tool used for finishing? that looks like a lot of metal to wearaway. though it would likely attribute a kind of intensity to the person willing to goto the work.

tim- are you going to leave the wedge like that? thinking it through/getting ready or is there some idea in it as it is?

The wedge is just a chip off the floor, most likely it will serve as the permanent wedge but it will be removed when I get back to it. With this axe I guess one could leave it long to allow ease of reversing the handle. I am not the owner of this axe, I will leave it up to him as to what type of handle he likes, it will suite his purpose. He already mentioned it is too long.

Tim

Giver! get it sharp and go to work. My negative comments are only based on what I've seen at ontario antique shows. pretty rough. Sharpen it up and post your work. Awesome! Look out for knots!

Hi Jim, right here on the bottom of the second page, my axe picture. My latest try at posting wouldn't even get the blue words on the screen. Under "new post" I click on "insert img" and follow the prompts but something is not going right. Not sure what I am missing.

Thank you.

Tim

Ok, what I did was I clicked on your blue image location link, then the picture appeared as a new tab on my firefox browser screen. I then right clicked on the image and selected copy image location, which put the image location onto my clipboard.

When I pasted it into my post text, I added the image tag brackets [img] and then the end image bracket [/img] and it displayed.

Generally I just type in the image brackets around the image location link, and don't try to use the automatic image insertion functions of this forum.

Seems to work easier for me.

Somehow you're getting several image tags and they maybe conflicting with each other or some other problem.

Jim Rogers

I recently bought this axe off ebay:

http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd48...03-03211530.jpg target=_blank><img src=http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-03211530.jpg

http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd48...03-03211604.jpg target=_blank><img src=http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-03211604.jpg

http://s1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd48...03-03211534.jpg target=_blank><img src=http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-03211534.jpg

It was described to me as ready to use with a tiny amount of damage to one end. Well it is not in really bad condition but its certainly not ready to use.

Questions:

Can anyone identify the pattern? Based on how thin the bit is I'd say its a finishing axe but from when and where?

The cutting edge is mostly straight, at the front and rear of the cutting edge it curves up by about 2mm out of dead straight line. Would the original grind have ben dead straight but its worn more at the front and rear our would it have been more convex in shape having worn more in the middle?

The back is not flat but is concave, like a japanese chisel. This may mean that although the back is pitted it should still be posible to get a good edge. Espeacially if it is possible to hammer the edge like you would with a jp chisel and then grind it flat before redoing the single bevel. Has any one heard of doing this with a european style axe before?

How should I go about getting it in to working order? If it is meant to straight thenif it were a chisel I would grind it back square to remove the chip s. Then I would flatten the back. Then I would reestablish the bevel.

Found one that I reckon is a match.

http://www.toolexchange.com.au/Axes-Hatchets.html

Scroll down to 2496.

If it is a match then it would seem to suggest that I should take of a lot of steel to make the cutting edge convex again.

Hello,

It would be a grave misstep to try regrinding the axe you have to the shape of the one referenced there even though in a general way the forms are roughly similar. Also regarding #2496 you have some clue to maybe where it comes from although not necessarily. One thing I'm sure of is that no axe was intended to be hammered on after tempering occurred and if the back of your axe is truly concave, that is, laying with the non-beveled side down on a flat surface the heel and toe elevate the rest of the blade along the bit, that would indeed be a curious matter and possibly indicate that you have either damaged merchandise or something other than an axe for hewing beams, maybe hewing spars or masts. Or is it hollowed, being something else altogether? But getting the back side conditioned is the key. The function of the axe would then determine the shape of the bit which would likely be, if not straight, either a slight arch or slightly receding heel and toe.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Ok so no hammer ing. In hindsight of course. It would just chip or worse.

The back is only slightly concave. Here are some photos whereI've tried to show by how much.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-10132351.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-10132712.jpg

Both photos are of the same view but one is back lit. The largest the gap gets would be 2.5mm. We are not talking very much at all but it seems to be consistent along the width (parralel with the handle) of the bit.

The backlit shows the pittting on the back which is considerable but near the edge it is not as bad.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-10135338.jpg

The last photo shows the leading point and the chips. If I put even a shallow convex curve on the edge then the chips would be removed. If I keep it straight then I obviously have to take the entire edge back until the chips are gone.

If I keep the bit straight how well will it hew. I would have thought that a straight bit would be inclined to leave tracks in the face being finished.

The picture shows a straight edge running from the eye to the cutting edge. I see no problem with how it is set now. Of more interest would be along the cutting edge, top to bottom, how flat or straight is this section? It should contact the straight edge at the center and see light at the ends.

The condition of the axe now is no way useable. If you are only collecting this would be fine. If it is intended to be put back into service it needs to be tuned up. A belt sander, stationary or hand held belt sander works well. A spray bottle and or a 5 gallon bucket of water to quench the head cool to the touch. It will get warm but should be cooled at that point. Use bare hands, no gloves, so you can feel the temp. Don't rush it take your time, a couple of hours of slow work will prove a job well done.

It appears to be a single bevel axe, as such the back should be flatish, within an inch or 2 of the cutting edge(from eye to blade), being careful not to round it over. Work the ends more to create the curvature needed. It would at this time also be possible to apply a radius to the cutting edge, one in which, if the cutting edge was placed against a table it would rock like a rocking chair. This could be slight or more, 1/4"-3/4"

While watching tv last night I started flattening the back. This is a bit premature since it will need to be redone once the cutting edge has been reshaped.

Far out is the steel hard. I got a number of hatchets and axes european and japanese and the steel is this axe is way harder than any of them, feels even harder than my chisels. When running my diamond sharpener over it it felt like drill bit steel or electric planet blade steel. The diamonds where cutting the steel but it had that same sort of skating feel that HSS has rather than sifter steels where you can really feel the steel being cut away.

That is where the belt sander comes in to play. You don't want to do this while watching TV, too hard to hear.

Hello,

It goes a ways in explaining the chip since the hard, welded steel edge is highly brittle. Also I notice that the low spot of the back seems to correlate to this troublesome chip, lots of speculations possible to be sure. Another clue to the edge profile would be the relation of the angle of the cutting edge to the eye. They don't seem to run parallel to each other, which you could expect of a hewing axe. Difficult to know for sure from my vantage point though. Take care applying mechanical power to the blade, forge welds can separate at temperatures fairly low, even to soon to detect with the bare hand.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

The curvature that timbeal was talking about seems to be there but is very slight.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-11175752.jpg

I estimate that it would only be a 1mm or 1.5mm at the most either side.

Is this the angle you mean Don?

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-11180741.jpg

As to what abrasives to use I may use a grinder to reshape the cutting edge but to fully flatten the back I'll wait until my new #200 japanese diamond plate arrives.

I found another axe like mine but there seems to be some distinct differences. The angle that I think Don is talking about is quite different and the front edge of the bit is quite curved where as mine is quite straight. The two axes look very similar without there handles, with their handles they would look quite different and obviously behave very differently.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/RbHttpHandler-1.jpg

Hi,

That is not the angle I had in mind though pertinent 'n intresting in itself. No, the relationship I had in mind might better be described by saying that if you were to hold an imaginary handle mounted in this axe in a vertical position, with arms outstretched and the pol of the axe toward you and the cutting edge facing away from you, which direction would the cutting edge be running relative to the verticality of the handle? And to get more to the point, it could be added that, supposing both are indeed parallel for example, this could suggest a certain posture the user might adapt when putting the axe to use as in a straight swing more or less in line with the cut. You could further speculate that this might occur from atop the log itself cutting parallel to its axis. This might lead you to imagine an axe with a relatively long handle, swung like a pendulum. In this instance where the bulk of the cutting is with the growth patterns of the wood rather than across, a straight cutting edge makes sense and the geometry of the axe would be best left as it is now, appropriate reconditioning being accounted for.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

I can not attest to damage from a belt sander. But I would for sure not go near it with a "grinder" If there is a possibility of damage due to the belt sander you are not keeping it cool enough. If this is a concern grab an assistant who can apply a steady spray of water while cleaning the pitted steel. Perhaps Don has a different up bringing than I, hence a different perspective, one worth consideration.

From post #28276
The first photo looks fine to me.

The second photo, the edge looks too straight for my preference.

The third photo is the extreme of the second, and not to my liking either.

I suspect Don's take on how this axe could have been used may be correct. Even so, I suspect the three faces of the cutting edge need not be perfectly straight and flat.

Back to the first photo.... The slight waning you see at the cutting edge is correct. Don't change that. It is the last inch of so I spoke of, this is needed to have the body of the axe clear the surface of the wood, other wise it will be difficult to get the cutting edge against the timber. Very similar to how a drill bit works, the leading edge needs to be able to contact the wood, you don't want the body getting in the way. Still keep in mind that the very edge does not want to be rounded over.

When I learnt to recondition chisels the first step was to grind them back square and then to reestablish a bevel. The first step could be done safely and easily with just a modicum of care because the fine edge was being removed. It was in the second that I burnt a lot of chisels. Just when I was finshing the last little but of steel removal would be going just great and then @#%!.

To be completely sure that this didn't happen with my axes I'm I'm the process of making a water cooled grinder. I have the bearing mounts, shaft, pulleys and a selection of stones and motors. The last thing I need is the trough for the water and a drive belt.

This won't help flatten the back though, hence the diamond plate.

Here are a couple of more speculations that would justify the straight edge.
Were the axe a timmermannsbijl then it would not only have been used for hewing but would primarily have functioned as a tool for joinery work being gripped right up there near the eye, but also swung with great accuracy.
On the other hand if it is a sparbilla then its purpose would have been to pare down small diameter spruce stems to be used as rafters.
When I envision it with a very stubby handle, say no more than for a one handed grip, then I imagine it being used by the sabotier or klompenmaker.
I suggest you look further into it before altering the shape.
Also the axe does not seem very thin to me at all but rather bulky and massive, what is it 2 - 2 1/2 kilos?
And my perspective on lapping and grinding comes not from any failed efforts, which I try always to avoid, but is simply a principled one.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

I will probably get in trouble with this perspective.... I don't see the belt driven system as grinding but more of course polishing, very course. It is a slow rpm where grinders, hand held or bench mounted are 1800+ rpms. More heat from the faster wheels. Most tool you purchase today come with beautifully sharpened edges, from power buffing.

I do come very close to finishing some joinery with my ax, gripping the head and pushing right to the line.

I agree with Don, everyone need more axes.

These are either identified as carpenters axes in the case of the two sketches and represent atypical and regional forms of which three come close to the form of the one you have or the wooden shoe makers axe in the photo.

But in the end I do believe your axe head can most correctly be identified as the kuipersbijl or coopers axe seen at this location.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Check this sellers stuff

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/helloantik/m....sid=p4340.l2562

They label them as coopers axes. Maybe maybe not.

As to how think it is, 5mm or less. I don't have a set of scales to weigh it unfortunately.

I don't think I could make a pair of air jordans with this axe no matter hire long I practiced.

I didn't see your last post Don. Yes it would apart it is a coopers axe.

I'd love some axes like in those sketches. In particular the t axes. When it comes to hewing I have two main interests viking/saxon period and the late medieval period. Even if I could find a useable axe from the viking period it would be too precious to use. The only substitutes that I know of are dime of the japanese axes and the gransfors bruks replicas. I know that their are other smiths around who make replicas but I havn't found their sites.

For viking stuff check out this:

http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/building-worlds-most-iconic-viking-ship.html?m=1

Hi Stuart,

These axes are French for sure but I'm guessing that they learned the form from the vikings who used to swoop down on the Bretons to steel their fish. You might have better luck searching for the hewing axe you want by looking in Sweden, Finland and Denmark though Denmark seems oddly difficult for some reason and the Finnish language is pretty indecipherable. Some helpful terms to look under might be, piilukirveet, sparrbila, kirvies...

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

I don't know how the word breaks down but I bet they built a lot of spars with the sparrbila.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyCy3XpVrKY

I would like a close up of the cutting edge.

Hello,
Depending on which view, Tim you might find the right information on these pages. Some straight, some with the radius you like so much, some with the ends all relieved there.

So, I'm only making a direct translation from what little I can make of the Swedish, but spar, that is the Christmas tree, the spruce, though when used in connection to construction it's limited to small diameters no more than 15 cm buts at most and usually less, so the one from the video wont qualify sorry to say. That's a nice finish the axe leaves behind though and typical of what I've seen in old buildings. How fine it would be cutting through such wood I can only imagine.

And then bila, is the same as axe for you and me.

I understand that in Sweden and Latvia and Estonia etc... production and export of spars was a kind of greenwood industry back when people did things like that. It's something about the slow growth in a particularly managed forest parcel where they hauled the spars out from. In Finland I here tell of experimental forests where square trees are being developed, very secretive and all.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Got a new toy today,

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-06192035.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-06192416.jpg

The plan is for this to be my roughing axe.

The handle is sound but short for me so I'll knock the wedges out and make a new one.

The hungarian axe is getting there but I'm not happy with it. I've given it an off set handle and it is not easy to use at all. Will post pictures soon.

This is my latest aquisition:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-18174000.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-18173941.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-18174033.jpg

I'm not sure whether I want to restore this one or not. The second pic is of the back and you can see a polished band running the length of the cutting edge. The person I got this off has done that with some sort of sander and it now means that the back is not flat. They have effectively given this axe two bevels instead of one. There are a few chips in the blade which when I take them out will reduce the back bevel but it will still leave too much for the back to be flat. I got a carpenters hatchet from the same person and it took a good 2 hours working carefully with the belt sander to flatten the back so I could do the same thing for this axe. The only problem is that the back bevel is worse or this one and it is a lot larger than the carpenters hatchet. 5 times as long a cutting edge.

I've got some more coming so I think I'll on sell this one to someone who just wants it to hang on the wall. It is a real pitty because it is basically in top condition being free of any pitting. If the previous owner hadn't mistakenly "restored" it it would definitely have been a keeper.

I can't tell from the pictures how much, but if the rounding of the back side is not overly large then it will still work fine. A lot of them tend to get that way over time any way.

A goosewing can still work with a slightly rounded back -less than 1/16" or maybe 3/32" I'd say.

What I would recommend if you wished to restore it to working condition is to take a slow belt sander with fine paper and sand on the flat side, essentially establishing a bevel on this side about 2 or 3 inches wide.

Goosewing axes typically do not have the slight curvature to the bit like broad axes have, so some times they even have a very slight rounding of the flat side on purpose, if used by someone used to broad axes.

Stuart, I was looking through your posts. Here's a little information about some Central European axe tradition.

This tradition is, as best as I can tell, spread by German-speaking people, such as the Bavarians, Austrians, Swiss, etc. Names seem to reflect this.

There are many variations of this, but here is more or less how the hewing technique works:

You start off with a narrow-bitted axe on a long handle. A narrow bit allows you to make very steep shouldered notches, so it makes quick work of the notching.

After notching you use this narrow axe to split away the waste.

Then you take a broad axe with a very long handle and get the surface down to its dimensions. You could also use this axe to remove the waste instead of the narrow axe, but it is heavy so I do not like to swing it that much.

Then you take the goosewing with the short handle and clean up the face, making it very smooth. Here you are removing very little material.

If you pay attention to the waste on the ground, you can see just what is removed at each step.

Stuart,

I wouldn't worry about it. It'll hew just fine, you just have to get used to the axe. If it was perfectly flat, it would have a tendency to dig. It's like having a chisel or slick that has a curved back. Only the modern chisels, slicks, and axes have perfectly flat backs for the whole length. It works either way, it just takes a few minutes to get the feel of each tool. And as long as there are two planes cleanly meeting, the edge will be sharp. It looks like a nice axe. If you don't like the curve, let me know, maybe I'll take it off your hands.

Thanks for that D

I've got a selection of felling axes for scoring the logs havn't and one axe that is very similar to the one in your first photo. The handle I've made for it is a bit short so I'll be fixing that.

I've got a japanese broad axe for roughing which is amazing but the handle is too short. I've got a number of axes suitable as roughing axes on their way to me but I doubt any will beat the Japanese axe. That may mean that at least one gets used since the Japanese axe is so good.

Also on its way to me is an Austrian finishing axe with a cutting edge of around 500mm. Should be here any day.

I've been collecting my tools for a while now and almost have enough to start my first real project which is a cider press. Havn't decided the style I'll do yet but if people are interested they can check out this thread:

http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=28526&#Post28526

I'm still having issues with the engineering. From my calcs the timbers need to be huge to get the pressures I want. So either I won't get the pressures that I want or I'll need really huge timbers or someone who actually knows what they are doing will show me where I'm going wrong.

Think of your press beam as a class II lever. One end is stationary and that's your fulcrum, and your point of pressure instead of being at the other end is somewhere in the middle, the closer to the fulcrum you put it the more mechanical advantage you get.

So if you have your pressure in the middle, you have a mechanical advantage that yields a pressing force equal to 2x the weight of your beam. If you have your pressure 1/3 of the way from the fulcrum to the far end, you will have a pressure equal to 3 times the weight of the beam, and so on.

But really in the end, you still need to have a very big timber to achieve a good pressure and get your pulp good and dry.

I'd love to continue the press discussion but for those interested in the axes rather than the press I'll reply in the press thread.

Series of picks to show curvature on back of goosewing:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-20102629.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-20102532.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-20102428.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-20102455.jpg

That last picture is from the front middle. The line that you can see there is that a join line between hard steel and soft steel?

depending on how old it is, the body may not be steel at all, but plain iron. But yes, that looks like a weld line to me.

That bevel I'd say is none too serious. The axe should work fine. The biggest thing is that you will wind up with a slightly wavy surface instead of the flat smooth surface that a straight goosewing would yield.

Hello,

That backside bevel should not be there. That is not to say that, sharpened, it won't cut wood but the intention of the axe has been destroyed and can only be set straight with an inordinate amount of reparation work. Were one to choose that route I'd say it would be economically smarter to get one of Fitzi's broadaxes new or even one of our forum colleague, nebruks's axes. Buying a broadaxe from ebay is risky business. The Japanese one was a good score though. Better luck with your 50 cm blade.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Today I had some parcels to pick up

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-20175400.jpg

The quality is superb. The roughing axe (for want of a better name) has been repaired but is free of rust and pits.

The Austrian finishing axe is covered in surface rust but that will clean off very quickly.

The goose wing is beautiful.

The rough axe and the finishing axe need some minor shaping but are basically ready to sharpen. While the goosewing just needs a hone. All need to be handled with care because while they are blunt they are still sharp enough to draw blood if handled carelessly.

All of these broad axes were without doubt worth buying. I'm so happy.

How much cash tied up in these tool? Better than paper currency or other monetary forms. Call Axe Line, today. Trade your fiat paper in for tools!

Hello,

All that solicitation stuff aside, I'll wager guesses in rounded-off figures at $50 increments, drawknives excluded:

Roughing axe $50
Austrian axe 200
goose wing 150

All in all not bad prices and reflective of the hobbyists freedom from having to justify his or her enjoyment in economic terms all of which I support.


Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Roughing axe about that, Austrian axe a bit more, goosewing about that.

Hey yo Stuart, you have much experience (or any) hewing with these axes? Do you have hewing experience in general?

Also, what do you have for a notching axe? The roughing broad axe can do it, but at the end of the day it pays to have a lot smaller axe to do it -that thing will wear you out.

I personally hew with a 3-axe German/central european style. I use a very narrow-bitted "Bundaxt" for my notching, it's small and light and makes quick work of it and also handles knots with ease do to its narrow bit. I use this same axe to chop off the bulk of the waste, then use the rough broad axe to hew the faces down to the line and give them their final dimensions. My goosewing -a large version- is used only to remove a parper thin layer of wood when I want a smooth surface.

These tools require some highly specialized technique, and have a very sharp learning curve!

DLB

Over the last few years (10) I have been building and working with wood and over that time the tools I have been using have been getting older and older.

I converted a potatoe packing shed into a cottage with modern tools.
I have built my own mill and with the wood I have sawn made furniture and some small sheds.
I have helped to build a stand alone kitchen modeled on english 14th century examples (sawn timbers, hand tooled joints).

As for hewing experience I have made 3 axe handles.

For notching I have a 4.5lb plumb felling axe or an axe which I think is of the style that you mentioned.

By you have made 3 axe handles, do you mean you have hewn extensively and thus worn out 2 handles?

What is your experience with the use of a roughing out axe? It is a finicky tool,, but when you figure it out you can get some incredible results out of it. For most timbers, I never even bother with using a finishing axe. I can get more than satisfactory results out of this tool.

My narrow-bitted Bundaxt has a bit maybe about 2 1/2 inches wide, very narrow. Again, it is picky but once you learn it it will work wonderfully. I use it to chop very narrow notches (less work) which it can do since it is so narrow, then split the waste from the top. Using this tool, you can actually get a really nice finish. The rough hewing axe is actually unnecessary, but is a big time saver. A common method is to trim the faces down to their final dimensions with the narrow axe, and if a smooth finish is required use the goosewing to remove a paper-thin layer of wood, along with any irregularities. I have done this, it is actually quite easy, but takes a good while. If you have the roughing axe, you can trim the waste to about 1/4" from the line, score the face and use the roughing axe to trim it down to final dimension. My preferred method is to stand on top of the log and let the axe's weight do all the work, though if you want to move faster you can stand beside and chop down, which is tiring. You will have to chop down around knots, or the grain will cause a great deal of tearout.

And by the way, this 3 axe method inherently results in a sharp bottom corner.

No the only handles I have worn out are on my splitters (We go through about 20m3 of fire wood per season).

I meant that I have taken my froe broken up a length of timber and made 3 handles. Two for my axes and one for a hatchet. They are not pretty but they work.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-25205111.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-04-25204933.jpg

If you plan on doing a lot of hewing, do yourself a favor and make your handles smooth. Any roughness will wear away at your hands after a while

At least one of those handles is being replaced as soon as I find the wood to do so. My plan is to build a shave horse and it will be a lot easier to finish items like handles once I have built that.

A simple shaving horse can be built in about 1/2 an hour. It is compact, simple to build, transportable, built with material at hand and functions great. With a chop saw it could be built in 15 minutes.

Today I started making my shaving horse.

Started with a 12" log of blackwood spilt in half and then spilt off a 3" slab.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-05-16161706.jpg

I then started using the rest of the log to make the legs, riser and ramp.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-05-17170957.jpg

Tomorrow I'll start on the dumbhead and putting it together. That is unless the new baby comes.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-05-17171326.jpg

Oh and it has taken me a lot longer the half an hour.

Shaving horses and making babies.... 'bout half and hour.

The making perhaps but not the waiting for them to arrive.

Hello,

The spitting image.


Well, nearly, considering the difference in hemispheres.

Would it be bad forum etiquette to just mention on this page that I thought that wood you showed on the other page was really nice. I wonder how it will season. Do you mean to tell us that such wood is lying around the bush for the plucking there?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

It was on the road side and you are not allowed to take wood from the roadside without the authority's in question permission. In this case it was VicRoads and they never give permission. If they catch you the can issue a fine and confiscate tools.

However, it is the responsibility of land owners to maintain the roads side outside the front of their properties. So I went and asked the couple where the tree was if they could ask me to remove said tree because they didn't have the tools to do so. They said yes I got tree

I was given an old Japanese broad axe that was used by my landlord`s father (my landlord is 85,so I estimate the axe to be at least 100 years old).I cleaned the rust using boiling green tea and used it a little,but then the (equally old) handle snapped.I couldn`t remove the wood from the slot of the axe head,so stupidly I put the whole thing in a fire,to burn away the remains of the handle.I have basically annealled the head now (which had been in quite good condition,after having the rust cleaned off it).I`d appreciate any suggestions as to how to harden/temper the head again.
As to whether it would have been worth buying the axe,I don`t know (except for its beauty of course).

my suggestion is, don't try this yourself.
Take or send it to someone who knows what they are doing.
The reason I say this is because the tempering process is tricky, and subjects the metal to a lot of stress. If done improperly, you will warp the steel or even worse crack it. And I imagine this is even more so on an old tool than a new piece of steel.

This is aggravated by having a sharp edge -often you won't grind it down to its edge until everything else is done.

Well I'm not very happy with it but it has already made things a lot easier:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-05-31080347.jpg

A much smoother handle:
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-05-31080534.jpg

New aquisitions:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-05124501.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-05124518.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-05124539.jpg

For the Americans using a 20c piece as scale is probably not very useful. The Mortice axe is about 52mm wide.

Hello,

That's interesting to see. Holdfasts have much to offer I have found in the way of flexibility - literally and figuratively.

This one I just picked up yesterday but I'll be passing it on I'm afraid. While it has a true ringing tone, the back is flat, and there is hardly a thing amiss I am just not smitten by her.





Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Jees the bit is really deep. Is this a difference in style or does it indicate that the ones we usually see have just been used a lot more?

I would have left the patina in place. I buy old tools because I want my work to appear as if it has not been touched by a machine tool. The experience is spoilt for me if the tools I'm using have obviously been touched by a machine.

How much will you be letting it go for?

sharpening the mortice axe is tricky. Its too heavy to flatten as you would a chisel but not wide enough to flatten as an axe

Back in the day how did people get things flat? when making a plane or a level how did they get a dead flat surface to then use to make other flat surfaces?

You see many old foot powered grinding wheels used for sharpening axes and the like but how was the back of a single bevel tool done?

Does anyone know how the Japanese flattened their sharpening stones?

You make a flat surface by taking one reasonably flat surface and using it as the basis for a plane. The surface it makes is slightly flatter, and you keep repeating this process until you have a very flat surface.

In other words, planes have become more accurate over time.

As for using a round wheel, if you use the side, there you have a flat surface.

Not sure I quite understand your first example.

As for using the side of the wheel how did they get that flat?

Hi Stuart,

It's not very old or very much used and so still maintains the form close to what it would have originally been and that is roughly the standard for this kind of broadaxe.

I also think that somebody went to far in trying to clean it up but it hasn't effected the functional state of the axe at least, no damage done that a little time won't heal, but it's one of the reasons for me personally I'm not so enthralled. And it was from the beginning something of a compromise in that the form is right, and left handed versions are not so common in any form, other than new. I hope to get 85 euros for this one at least and then keep an eye out for another.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Toshio Odate says when he was young he would take the stones on the sidewalk and flatten them. two stones can be rub together to produce reasonable flatness. The author of the village carpenter said that they used to sharpen across the stone instead of along the stone because their stones were not easy to flatten.
Brandon

If it was perfectly flat, it would have a tendency to dig. It's like having a chisel or slick that has a curved back. Only the modern chisels, slicks, and axes have perfectly flat backs for the whole length. It works either way, it just takes a few minutes to get the feel of each tool.

2nd box of three from Germany arrived today with lots of goodies including this monster:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-07171240.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-07171215.jpg

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-07171201.jpg

I have assumed that it is an old felling axe. Very similar in shape to Japanese felling axes and pictures that you see in Medieval woodcuts and illuminated manuscripts.

Hello,

Could you point out if it has an insert and if so where the weld is? That would be interesting as well.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

I cant see any lines or other features that would indicate an insert on the bit but the eye has definitely been formed by wrapping a piece of steel around a mandrel and I would imagine that a piece of tool steel would then have been inserted between the two ends of the steel that forms the eye.

Having another look there is a fault about halfway between the edge of the bit and the eye which may indicate an insert. I'll get a photo in the morning light. It is hard to see any detail because the surface is rather pitted. Since it is a double bevel axe this does not concern me but it does obscure any features that would otherwise be visible.

Hi Stuart,

You would also notice the line on the bevel when you go to sharpening it with an 800 grit waterstone but before you hone it with the 6000.
I guess that fault line at the half way is an extension piece which then would contain the insert.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Well I sharpened the french axe head today and started roughing out a handle havn't got too far because i have been busy doing some other things.

View from kids bedroom:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-06-09092624.jpg

You can't see the insert but you can feel it based on the different way the sharpening stone bites the steel depending on whether you are working on the cheek or near the edge of the bit.

Something I noticed when I went to sharpen the axe head is that the bit is not symmetrically shaped. I drawn a quick line drawing of how I think it would be once it has a handle:

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/abit.jpg

Is this how it should be shaped? Should the hang be less closed because of the shape of the bit? Or is it just an old axe head that needs to be reshaped so that it is more symmetrical?

Hi Stuart,

I see it's November down there where you're at.

You get those with guns or the way my old compagnon Ricky Fornaro from Victoria would, with the dogs and a bowie knife?

Or so he said.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Definitely guns. There are a few people around hear who dog and knife hunt but they are all crazy. Years ago when new gun laws came in to ban semi automatic rifles I had no problem with it because I couldn't see the need for civilians to own them.

Unless they were pig shooters

These are actually free range farmed pigs from my mums place. I say farmed but they were more like wild animals that coincidentally stayed within the boundary fence. No other fence mind which led to their demise in a hurry.

Yup, that sounds like good old Ricky.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff