Don,

Ken is in England.

The English chap that you need is Laurie Smith.

Glad to hear you're well and still at home, Ken.

In lieu of getting Laurie Smith here on the forum, perhaps you can comment on some of this. Surely you must have some bits to share on Cressing Temple?

(By the way, you can bring your comments about the rod and building width over here. Just copy and paste into a new posting here.)

Little Twelve Toes

12 is something to ponder.

The Daisy Wheel is much like a clock face of 12 hours, it just skips every other hour. I'd be interested to learn more of what Gabel was saying in the beginnings of this in the other thread. The setting of the dividers, etc. What part of the wheel was used for what parts of the frame, etc?

In the following diagram, tie-beam to peak (Kingpost) is the radius of the wheel. Post length seems to be the same measurement. Building width is determined by the spread of where #'s 2, 4 & 8, 10 (if you think of it as a clock face) fall on the wheel...






Some accounts say the Daisy Wheel wasn't necessarily an architectural model, but a symbol to ward off bad spirits. It was inscribed/painted on fireplace mantels or other central locations in the home, as well as outside one's door. This sounds like a pagan custom, suggesting the Wheel may be from another pre-christian culture.

I've often thought the "whetting bush," the small tree attached to the peak of freshly-raised frames, has its origins in pagan lore as well. Christianity typically does not honor animal totems, or give thanks to trees, etc. It is concerned w/ honoring one god with nature pretty far down on the hierarchy. Praising a tree or the forest is more in keeping w/ native american (or pagan) philosophy.

I wonder how old the Wheel is thought to be?

You will very pleased to know that Laurie Smith is coming your way in the next few months. North East I think.
Go and meet him. Offer him curry and beer, sit back, listen and be amazed!
He did a fair amount of work with Adrian Gibson on Cressing temple barns and has a also found similarities with the layout of Ely cathedral.
There are daisy wheels scratched beside the fireplace at The Queens Hunting Lodge in Epping, these are as someone said credited as being ritual marks. No mention of layup or design.
I think they could be something as simple as an apprentice scratching the daisywheel out on a post that he knew would be covered up… idle hands and all that… or the master carpenter leaving a signature as to the design of the building.

The building that the above daisy wheel was used for is this one:
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/markuspalarkus/3480501733/[/img] and was designed by Laurie with the specific intention of testing his ideas on the use of the daisywheel in cutting a frame.
I think a similar arrangement was used for setting out the footings/plan. I didn't take part in the cutting, just joined Laurie for the cladding over a few winter weekends.

it is a fascinating idea... along with the golden section and other devices to create 'ideal' and 'appealing' (note the quotes) geometry.

but, if we argued about the computer putting the designer on autopilot - it seems the daisy wheel can do the same. translating this to contemporary technology - one could certainly write a dynamic component in sketchup or a script in autocad or even a spreadsheet that took a few variables and could generate the post plan and bent design in a few seconds of computing time. and you could potentially write in rules for sizing of timber based on spans or hierarchy within the frame.

as it stands now i can throw all of the timber into a roof system on autopilot by filling out a form in HSB (but it is not smart enough to deal with alignment, balance, spcaing, etc. on complex roofs - so i never use it for timber - but i imagine it could make sense for conventional framing @ 16" or 24" OC.)

so the daisy wheel can be seen as a primitive computer for buildings - if it is determined that it was more than a maker's mark or symbol of building. seems that you probably could find examples that approximate the geometry... and may even match it. but to find out how it may have been used as a framers guide - that would be interesting. who designed the system? how was it handed down? was it a local guild secret? variations between regions (snow, wind, rain, local timber play into it?) etc. etc.



might have to find some free time to do something in sketchup with this concept... hmmm... should be able to derive all the geometry out of a few samples and regenerate that basic bent design by adjusting pitches / etc. by scaling and or moving items.

Hi Marko:

Thanks for coming onboard. It seems your attempt at the picture seems to have failed :-(

I'm drooling over the prospect of meeting Laurie Smith and receiving some of this "lost practice." I'm aware of the course he and Jack Sobon will be offering in Massachusetts this November.

Your ideas about the wheels scratched into obscure areas makes sense. I take it you are not inclined to believe they are a good luck symbol or talisman from pagan times? Perhaps it's both: they built acording to the wheel to ensure good energy, etc.

Today we hang up blueprints, back then I guessed they scratched a wheel...or a set of circles, etc.

Do you know the origins of the wheel? (At least some theories. Sounds like no one can really say for sure.) Is it European, Asian or some other design? It appears to be found in prominent Medieval buildings: Cressing's barns, like you say... But I wonder if its layout system is found in French or German buildings as well?

I believe Richard Babcock had a photo in one of his books that was a series of circles, all with a common center. He suggested that this was a master template for the measurements that the dividers would be set to each workday. A different size circle depending on what member was being "walked off" at the time. It was not a daisy wheel, but perhaps that was the same reason for finding them in an obscure location?

My children have scratched them into the kitchen table, daisy wheels. I have placed them on frames with no intended purpose but fun, out of sight for the most part. The latest frame I have worked on has some geometric basis with the wheel.

bmike, computers are the new age of communication, we have only just begun, infant stages. It would be interesting to see what you come up with.

Tim

My understanding is that the daisy wheel and other geometric patterns were basically design/drafting aids.

It is a way to quickly and accurately draw repeatable patterns and scale drawings without measuring. The scale drawing can be easily "blown up" to full size by stepping off the appropriate number of times with the dividers.

We often use 1/4 by 1/4 graph paper as an easy way to draw accurate scale drawings. They used the daisy wheel. So my belief is that it's not magic, it's just a tool they used to first make scale drawings and to then lay out the building full scale.

It is faster and easier to draw the daisy wheel's 7 circles than to lay out an accurate grid.

Geometry is really pretty neat.