Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
Daisy Wheel #19562 05/08/09 05:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
All right, you can have any given length, but that length can be divided into increments of 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, all numbers associated with the inch program not tenths. The Wheel has six points, double that and you have the twelve units of the foot. This could be rolled out with a large wheel, I have seen large wheel used for marking devices. That is all the divider are doing when walking off X-number of steps.

Was there a base length? At times I have wondered if the length of the available wood was the key, then was split into it 1/8's or 1/16's and the rest of the frame was built according to that original longest needed stick.

That is a start, go ahead and pick it apart and say there is no connection.

By the way, it is not raining just a late lunch and I am home alone.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19574 05/09/09 01:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Thanks for starting this thread, Tim:

As Tim suggests, the number 12 is significant in many areas of science and humanity. We even have 12 units on a standard clock face, which must be taken directly from old sundials...

I'm guessing that 12 is employed in so many things simply because it is a much more divisible unit than the number 10 is. (10 cannot be divided exactly in thirds... 3.33333, etc) But there are no doubt other hidden reasons why we use 12.

This link is a good intro to the daisy wheel layout of prominent medieval buildings:

http://www.cressingtemple.org.uk/Adrian%20Gibson/Wheat%20Barn.htm

No doubt Ken (and Gabel) can add to this...


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19575 05/09/09 01:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
The Power of Limits is an interesting study. Can be applied to many a subject....


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel #19579 05/09/09 04:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
Great minds think about this topic, alot.



The decimal system doesn't make "sense", I'm glad the USA never picked it up.


do you mean the metric system?
and whats wrong with finding library books? wink

Last edited by bmike; 05/09/09 04:26 PM.

Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19580 05/09/09 04:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
This is all I've been thinking about as I plod along today out in the yard...

Had an insight:

The metric system is decimal (deca, 10, etc)... Base-12 (for lack of a better term) is about fractions. And fraction is really another word for proportion. Daisy wheel is all about proportion...the number 12 is a very divisible unit.

And as Derek points, Davinci's wheel must be related. The human body was likely the base of measurements, or the proportin of certain body parts. Remember that originally an inch was supposedly the length of a man's thumb: the nail to the first knuckle?


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19583 05/10/09 01:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Fraction and proportion are also seen in the old way of referring to roof pitch: 1/3 for example, which equates to an 8/12. 1/2 pitch is a 12/12, etc.

Before I studied TF, I never heard of roof pitch stated in proportion to a building's width. It was always 5/12, 8/12, 10/12, etc.

I also used to wonder how rafters were laid out before the framing square was developed. I guess I still do. They must have been more or less scribed in place with the ridge set at a predetermined height. I don't know.

The Daisy Wheel diagram below is like many I've seen, w/ roofs having a 1/2 (12/12) pitched roof. Why is this? Were other roof slopes unable fit the wheel, so to speak?



As you can see I'm just getting a grasp on the whole Daisy Wheel phenomenon. Many questions arise.





Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19586 05/10/09 10:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Nice book bmike, I could add that to the wish list.

When I go over this I find I come to a point and can't move beyond it, sort of like chess I can only get 3 moves ahead and then the possibilities expound and I pick the best and settle for that move.

Why don't we have 6 fingers? Some odd cats have 6 claws. Our thumbs are the important change, among others, which separate us from the rest. My thumb measures 1" from nail to the first crease of the first joint.

Depending how deep, and how wide, you look we are just a fractal of the cosmos.

Tim



Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19590 05/10/09 03:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
it is important to remember that buildings need to be designed with form and function tied together. if you try to jam everything into a golden section or daisy wheel design... sometimes it works - other times it doesn't. we're unfortunately a bit trapped by the 4x8 mentality (or the 8x or 6x mentality) - we use what is commonly available... often to save $$, time, both, or waste. but, the plywood manufacturer often doesn't really know what the ideal living arrangement of a client may be...

i liked the theory of finding the longest / largest sticks and working from there. when i did a local barn most of my sizing was done by what i could get from a local mill... it required some creativity - doing some key lam tie beams for the center bents, and breaking the top plates at certain locations - but in the end it made sense with the materials i had on hand.

working with reclaimed or cruck / scribe materials will push this path as well. how big is the room? how long is that timber?

the book is a good study. he pushes the idea a bit, taking it almost too far - but yes - the smaller is to the greater as the greater is to the whole.

there is power in limits - so maybe that plywood mentality can be turned on its head. or that 8x mentality. with design students i've often limited the materials or the sizes - it is amazing what students can come up with, esp, when they are unencumbered with 'tradition' and 'thats the way its always done'....

Last edited by bmike; 05/10/09 03:47 PM.

Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19592 05/10/09 08:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
mo Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
what about the plan view. where does the daisy wheel go with this?



Last edited by mo; 05/10/09 08:18 PM.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: mo] #19594 05/10/09 09:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Mo,

It seems the wheel can be used to determine bent spacing:
http://www.cressingtemple.org.uk/Adrian%20Gibson/Wheat%20Barn.htm

So the wheel can be used for floor (plan) as well as elevation (wall) framing.

Where is Ken? We need an English chap.


bmike,

I think we're just trying to lean how the Daisy Wheel worked, not jam all building design into this one particular formula.


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19595 05/10/09 09:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Don,

Ken is in England.

The English chap that you need is Laurie Smith.


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19596 05/10/09 10:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Glad to hear you're well and still at home, Ken.

In lieu of getting Laurie Smith here on the forum, perhaps you can comment on some of this. Surely you must have some bits to share on Cressing Temple?

(By the way, you can bring your comments about the rod and building width over here. Just copy and paste into a new posting here.)


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19599 05/11/09 12:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 895
daiku Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 895


--
Clark Bremer
Minneapolis
Proud Member of the TFG
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: daiku] #19605 05/11/09 02:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
12 is something to ponder.

The Daisy Wheel is much like a clock face of 12 hours, it just skips every other hour. I'd be interested to learn more of what Gabel was saying in the beginnings of this in the other thread. The setting of the dividers, etc. What part of the wheel was used for what parts of the frame, etc?

In the following diagram, tie-beam to peak (Kingpost) is the radius of the wheel. Post length seems to be the same measurement. Building width is determined by the spread of where #'s 2, 4 & 8, 10 (if you think of it as a clock face) fall on the wheel...






Some accounts say the Daisy Wheel wasn't necessarily an architectural model, but a symbol to ward off bad spirits. It was inscribed/painted on fireplace mantels or other central locations in the home, as well as outside one's door. This sounds like a pagan custom, suggesting the Wheel may be from another pre-christian culture.

I've often thought the "whetting bush," the small tree attached to the peak of freshly-raised frames, has its origins in pagan lore as well. Christianity typically does not honor animal totems, or give thanks to trees, etc. It is concerned w/ honoring one god with nature pretty far down on the hierarchy. Praising a tree or the forest is more in keeping w/ native american (or pagan) philosophy.

I wonder how old the Wheel is thought to be?





Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19609 05/11/09 04:21 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5
M
marko Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5
You will very pleased to know that Laurie Smith is coming your way in the next few months. North East I think.
Go and meet him. Offer him curry and beer, sit back, listen and be amazed!
He did a fair amount of work with Adrian Gibson on Cressing temple barns and has a also found similarities with the layout of Ely cathedral.
There are daisy wheels scratched beside the fireplace at The Queens Hunting Lodge in Epping, these are as someone said credited as being ritual marks. No mention of layup or design.
I think they could be something as simple as an apprentice scratching the daisywheel out on a post that he knew would be covered up… idle hands and all that… or the master carpenter leaving a signature as to the design of the building.

The building that the above daisy wheel was used for is this one:
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/markuspalarkus/3480501733/[/img] and was designed by Laurie with the specific intention of testing his ideas on the use of the daisywheel in cutting a frame.
I think a similar arrangement was used for setting out the footings/plan. I didn't take part in the cutting, just joined Laurie for the cladding over a few winter weekends.

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: marko] #19610 05/11/09 04:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
it is a fascinating idea... along with the golden section and other devices to create 'ideal' and 'appealing' (note the quotes) geometry.

but, if we argued about the computer putting the designer on autopilot - it seems the daisy wheel can do the same. translating this to contemporary technology - one could certainly write a dynamic component in sketchup or a script in autocad or even a spreadsheet that took a few variables and could generate the post plan and bent design in a few seconds of computing time. and you could potentially write in rules for sizing of timber based on spans or hierarchy within the frame.

as it stands now i can throw all of the timber into a roof system on autopilot by filling out a form in HSB (but it is not smart enough to deal with alignment, balance, spcaing, etc. on complex roofs - so i never use it for timber - but i imagine it could make sense for conventional framing @ 16" or 24" OC.)

so the daisy wheel can be seen as a primitive computer for buildings - if it is determined that it was more than a maker's mark or symbol of building. seems that you probably could find examples that approximate the geometry... and may even match it. but to find out how it may have been used as a framers guide - that would be interesting. who designed the system? how was it handed down? was it a local guild secret? variations between regions (snow, wind, rain, local timber play into it?) etc. etc.



might have to find some free time to do something in sketchup with this concept... hmmm... should be able to derive all the geometry out of a few samples and regenerate that basic bent design by adjusting pitches / etc. by scaling and or moving items.

Last edited by bmike; 05/11/09 04:35 PM.

Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: marko] #19618 05/12/09 01:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: marko
You will very pleased to know that Laurie Smith is coming your way in the next few months. North East I think.
Go and meet him. Offer him curry and beer, sit back, listen and be amazed!
He did a fair amount of work with Adrian Gibson on Cressing temple barns and has a also found similarities with the layout of Ely cathedral.
There are daisy wheels scratched beside the fireplace at The Queens Hunting Lodge in Epping, these are as someone said credited as being ritual marks. No mention of layup or design.
I think they could be something as simple as an apprentice scratching the daisywheel out on a post that he knew would be covered up… idle hands and all that… or the master carpenter leaving a signature as to the design of the building.

The building that the above daisy wheel was used for is this one:
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/markuspalarkus/3480501733/[/img] and was designed by Laurie with the specific intention of testing his ideas on the use of the daisywheel in cutting a frame.
I think a similar arrangement was used for setting out the footings/plan. I didn't take part in the cutting, just joined Laurie for the cladding over a few winter weekends.



Hi Marko:

Thanks for coming onboard. It seems your attempt at the picture seems to have failed :-(

I'm drooling over the prospect of meeting Laurie Smith and receiving some of this "lost practice." I'm aware of the course he and Jack Sobon will be offering in Massachusetts this November.

Your ideas about the wheels scratched into obscure areas makes sense. I take it you are not inclined to believe they are a good luck symbol or talisman from pagan times? Perhaps it's both: they built acording to the wheel to ensure good energy, etc.

Today we hang up blueprints, back then I guessed they scratched a wheel...or a set of circles, etc.

Do you know the origins of the wheel? (At least some theories. Sounds like no one can really say for sure.) Is it European, Asian or some other design? It appears to be found in prominent Medieval buildings: Cressing's barns, like you say... But I wonder if its layout system is found in French or German buildings as well?





Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19624 05/12/09 03:00 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
I believe Richard Babcock had a photo in one of his books that was a series of circles, all with a common center. He suggested that this was a master template for the measurements that the dividers would be set to each workday. A different size circle depending on what member was being "walked off" at the time. It was not a daisy wheel, but perhaps that was the same reason for finding them in an obscure location?


Member, Timber Framers Guild
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Dave Shepard] #19628 05/12/09 09:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
My children have scratched them into the kitchen table, daisy wheels. I have placed them on frames with no intended purpose but fun, out of sight for the most part. The latest frame I have worked on has some geometric basis with the wheel.

bmike, computers are the new age of communication, we have only just begun, infant stages. It would be interesting to see what you come up with.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19629 05/12/09 12:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
G
Gabel Offline
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
My understanding is that the daisy wheel and other geometric patterns were basically design/drafting aids.

It is a way to quickly and accurately draw repeatable patterns and scale drawings without measuring. The scale drawing can be easily "blown up" to full size by stepping off the appropriate number of times with the dividers.

We often use 1/4 by 1/4 graph paper as an easy way to draw accurate scale drawings. They used the daisy wheel. So my belief is that it's not magic, it's just a tool they used to first make scale drawings and to then lay out the building full scale.

It is faster and easier to draw the daisy wheel's 7 circles than to lay out an accurate grid.

Geometry is really pretty neat.








Last edited by Gabel; 05/12/09 12:12 PM.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19633 05/12/09 12:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
Originally Posted By: Gabel


Geometry is really pretty neat.










absolutely!


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19643 05/12/09 03:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Dave,

I have seen that diagram in Babcock's book... looks like ripples in a pond.

Geometry is neat, especially such "low-tech" examples as the wheel. I find it fascinating and also somewhat rebellious to think carpenters used no numeric measurements or tape rules, yet built beautifully proportioned buildings. Today carpenters are chained to precise measurements and even need calculators. The wheel suggests that this is all unnecessary. Try selling this to a modern engineer!

In it's simplicity, the wheel also seems deeply mysterious. Why are there 12 arcs, etc.?

And perhaps the deepest question of all, why was it abandoned and forgotten? If it was a pagan symbol, the church would have perhaps killed a carpenter for employing it.


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19648 05/12/09 04:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi,

I would encourage you all to start examining possible fact based suggestions in respect of the potential use of this symbol. Some of the uses suggested thus far appear to be somewhat speculative and with others being downright misleading.

If this symbol is not needed to layout and cut frames today then why might it have been needed centuries ago ?

This symbol is probably found in only 5% maximum of houses, cottages and barns in SE England but can sometimes be found on items of furniture like bedsteads in Scotland.

Is this symbol found in North America and if yes what is its geographic spread and likely date range of use ?

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19649 05/12/09 05:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
ken -

facts have no place on an internet forum! (smiley, laugh, chuckle).

yes, i would like to know if it was a building computer, where it was used, how it was used.

and the notion of it being pagan and then dropped - that does'nt make sense. if it was useful the church would have just co-opted it like it did with all the other symbology, sacred dates, festivals, etc. throughout the ages... there'd simply be a pope or a cathedral or a saint inlaid in the circle, and history would have been tweaked and re-written to make sense out of the 12 rings (tribes, apostles, you name it), etc. etc. etc.

-mike

Last edited by bmike; 05/12/09 05:04 PM.

Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19650 05/12/09 05:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
G
Gabel Offline
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
I know of it existing in two buildings in NA. One is a log house built in ca 1820 in Henry County Georgia and the other is a grist mill building near Staunton, VA which the Guild surveyed as part of a workshop in 2007 -- I don't know the date of that building.


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19659 05/13/09 12:14 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
R
Roger Nair Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 463
Since I have no facts to back up my view on the daisy wheel and the wheat barn....Anyhow, what jumped out to me is the floor layout could also be explained by application of the ratios in a 30-60-90 triangle and the roof slope appears close to an equilateral triangle configuration. Both triangles are to be found within a daisy wheel but the derivation through a daisy wheel is unnecessarily complicated and to layout a building by a complicated process of divding circles an projecting towards other circles which are again divided, seems overly cumbersome and not carpenter like. I will try to post later when I have more time for a full explanation.

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19660 05/13/09 01:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: Ken Hume
Hi,

I would encourage you all to start examining possible fact based suggestions in respect of the potential use of this symbol. Some of the uses suggested thus far appear to be somewhat speculative and with others being downright misleading.

If this symbol is not needed to layout and cut frames today then why might it have been needed centuries ago ?

This symbol is probably found in only 5% maximum of houses, cottages and barns in SE England but can sometimes be found on items of furniture like bedsteads in Scotland.

Is this symbol found in North America and if yes what is its geographic spread and likely date range of use ?

Regards

Ken Hume



Ken,

Of course some of these posts have been speculative. We are trying to grasp at a topic that is notoriously ambiguous. My pagan suggestions are based on loose references from your own country (and I will post these soon)... This is how we learn on a medium such as this forum where most of us are poking 'round in the dark. We suggest ideas and see if anyone else has supporting information, etc. There is no harm in this at all.

I encourage you to share w/ us more of what you know about the wheel. It's clear you follow this topic closely. Come down and chat w/ the rest of us. As you can see, we need concrete snippets like "5% maximum of houses, cottages and barns in SE England but can sometimes be found on items of furniture like bedsteads in Scotland."




Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19661 05/13/09 01:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 217
D
Don P Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 217
I am learning from this and enjoying the discussion. I do agree that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I just doodle with the compass and a chip carving knife sometimes. I'm not much good at it but it is kind of fascinating just playing with the proportions a compass can come up with. I've seen the same type of things on old furniture, trims, etc so I imagine crude embellishment has probably gone on for a very long time. Some of it has come out looking pretty religious and some has looked like I was devil worshipping, but it all just came out of the swinging of arcs. I wonder if the interpretation is learned or built in?

Last edited by Don P; 05/13/09 01:24 AM.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19662 05/13/09 02:32 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: Gabel
I know of it existing in two buildings in NA. One is a log house built in ca 1820 in Henry County Georgia and the other is a grist mill building near Staunton, VA which the Guild surveyed as part of a workshop in 2007 -- I don't know the date of that building.


Pictures of the Daisy Wheels from the Lyles Mill outside Staunton, VA. from the Guild workshop. I don't remember the date either.
[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/P1010020.jpg[/img][/img]
[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/P1010021.jpg[/img][/img]


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19664 05/13/09 07:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi Don x 2,

I believe that the quote is :-

"A woman is just a woman but a good cigar is a smoke !"

Please do not be tempted to interpret my ignorance as loftiness. Most people "don't know what they don't know" but in respect of daisy wheels I now "know what I don't know". Its a big step forward.

Tom Cundiff's post is a sure step in the right direction. He has now identified a building that contains this feature and presumeably the layout and date of this building can be established. This "fact based evidence" now needs to be gathered, analysed and sythesised until hopefully a picture emerges. The gathering of this knowledge and the interpretation and understanding of same is currently the holy grail that Laurie Smith seeks. He is the person that might stand the best chance of informing us all. I am not worthy to comment upon the likely outcome of this research.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19665 05/13/09 10:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Those daisy wheels are erratic, kind of like me and a computer. They seem to have been scratched into the boarding on top of the lime wash. Were they found on the framing as well?

I am trying to leave religion, politics and women out of it but don't know it is possible.

The fishes bladder, there are six in one wheel. As stated earlier, I can be a bit erratic with the computer and can't get the copy & paste thing to work, search wikipedia and Eye of Horus, specifically the arithmetic section. What were they worshiping?

Tim


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19666 05/13/09 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
maybe the wheels in the mill are from an OCD geometician that was practicing his tag - but spraypaint and markers were a ways off, so he grabbed his dad's compass on the way to school in the morning?

they hardly look like a rossetta stone to unlock the secret geometry or layout formula of a building.

why would they be on the interior of the siding?

my guess is they have little to do with building, and more to do with potential superstition or some f'ng around by the crew while the boss was chatting with the client.

were some of these used as maker's marks? (not specifically the mill's)

i know of a mark that i branded, etched, and scratched on furniture, some poorly thrown ceramics, and 2 timber frames that i've crafted. i only hope that they receive this much attention a hundred or two hundred years out.


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19667 05/13/09 01:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi,

In the top photo the daisy petals are set in the 2 basic positions of orientation.

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19668 05/13/09 01:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
bmike, Ken, etc:


I know this pagan road I've been traveling on sounds far-flung and like a page right out of the Da Vinci code… I laugh sometimes thinking about carpenters and magic. No doubt my comment that "a carpenter might have been killed by the church for employing it," was a little out there, but I'm trying to chase down assertions I've found that suggest the wheel was a symbol to "ward off evil spirits." This is not my hypothesis, but that of others from England, a country, may I remind us, that was home to the Druids and gave us Stonehenge: a circular design that no one seems to pass off as trivial.

I had no idea we’d find this symbol in America. That's interesting. We also had the Salem Witch Trials: pagan customs were not exactly embraced by everyone. Would a carpenter have felt comfortable scratching a pentagram into a summer beam? Maybe the wheel was dropped b/c carpenters had to learn another way? Maybe not.

I don't see any harm in thinking outside the box on this one. I mean, who really knows about the wheel? It does sound like it's more than just a cute symbol children played with--passed off as a trivial remnant of the past.

"Go and meet him. Offer him curry and beer, sit back, listen and be amazed!" were Marko’s comments (someone from England,) regarding Laurie and the wheel. He must have fairly good reason for saying this.

…………………………………………………..

“and the notion of it being pagan and then dropped - that does'nt make sense. if it was useful the church would have just co-opted it like it did with all the other symbology, sacred dates, festivals, etc. throughout the ages... there'd simply be a pope or a cathedral or a saint inlaid in the circle, and history would have been tweaked and re-written to make sense out of the 12 rings (tribes, apostles, you name it), etc. etc. etc.”
...................................

bmike, I know exactly what you mean. This was the pattern of the church. We still have the Yule log and Christmas is celebrated right around the winter solstice (a pagan holiday). But there were surely a few Pagan custom, symbols and rituals that fell by the wayside for one reason or another.


Here's what I’ve found asserting the wheel was used to ward off evil, etc… again, not my idea.


http://www.obr.org.uk/PDF/OBR_panels.pdf (see pg. 10... Daisy Wheel scratched on a door frame at Cogges. This is to stop evil spirits from entering the building. Note a resemblance to the consecration cross.)

http://www.apotropaios.co.uk/ritual_marks.htm
It appears to have been a general protection against ill-fortune or was deemed a good luck symbol. These 'daisy wheels' are common throughout England and Wales with many examples from Kent, Devon, Shropshire, Powys and Yorkshire. It is likely, however, that they are far more widespread than this.

http://archaeopagans.blogspot.com/2008/06/apotropaic-marks.html
There are some apotropaic daisy-wheel marks in the doorway of the tithe-barn at Bradford-on-Avon.




Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19669 05/13/09 02:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
G
Gabel Offline
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
Originally Posted By: OurBarns1


"Go and meet him. Offer him curry and beer, sit back, listen and be amazed!" were Marko’s comments (someone from England,) regarding Laurie and the wheel. He must have fairly good reason for saying this.




Laurie will amaze you for sure, but his teachings don't mention symbolism -- pagan or otherwise. It is all architecture, design, carpentry, and geometry.



Guys, the daisy wheel is a way to draw accurately prior to drafting tables and T-squares. It is not magic.



Roger,

It is actually not cumbersome to lay out a building this way. But I don't have time to elaborate right now either...

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19670 05/13/09 02:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
ob1 -

i don't doubt that the wheel was a symbol, possibly to bring good luck or spirits to the building, builders, or occupants.

what i don't see is that they were useful computers AND something that was divined by nature, god, spirit, or devil.

there are plenty examples of folk symbology running the gamut of luck charm, spirit ward, family seal, etc., etc... (think hex signs on barns, etc.)

so, while i am open to this idea - i don't think these things do both... they may be a geometric cliche, they may even be a derivation of a useful building or layout technique that were used for doing very specific tasks that somehow migrated to 'symbol' and pattern as a catch all, they may be graffiti... but i am suspicious that they are enshrined with too much hidden meaning AND a practical tool at the same time.

perhaps i'm wrong... folk history is a murky thing, as those that control the present can change the past...



Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19683 05/13/09 09:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Along w/ folk history, I'm sure we all can acknowledge the ancient days of timber framing is also a murky thing. Like Ken has said, "know that we don't know," etc... We don't know a lot about all this.

Given that, I'm not really hoping the wheel is a pagan symbol, but when I saw repeated references that it was used to ward off evil, I started to wonder. A chance web site is one thing, but three web sites makes me think there might just be something to the whole thing. I think it should remain on the table. There might be a connection down the line.

Though I doubt the wheel was created as a simultaneous building aid and "magic device," I do think it's origins are obscure enough to suggest some symbolic reference outside of architecture. Though I really have no idea, I'm willing to believe the wheel as a building aid came second to whatever it might have been before.

As we know, many early cultures built buildings and even whole villages upon templates designed for other, higher purposes in their culture. The pyramids of Egypt were built according to celestial bodies, Mayan temples were constructed to receive the sun on certian dates. The Forbidden City in China was aligned along a strict North-South axis and adhered to the harmonious science of feng-shui. Stonehenge.... and on it goes.

England--and Europe for that matter--was not always a Christian land. It only makes sense-- and I think we should be open to the possibility-- that some pagan influence is to be found in early timber framing design. The "Whetting Bush" is a fine example, in my mind, of a pagan-influenced rather than Christian-based custom associated w/ timber framing.

Something makes me think Germany, etc... the Norse traditions, as the root of attaching a small evergreen at the peak of a frame. I mean England is not known for being the softwood capital of the world. The Norse honored evergreens. Why didn't the English attach an oak to the peak? That's the forest that built their great structures, not spruce, pine and fir.

I'm looking forward to Gabel's upcoming post on what Laurie Smith has said about the wheel, it's origins, etc. And I wonder if Mr. Smith suggested why it fell out of favor as a design tool?




Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19687 05/14/09 07:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi Don,

Who says that daisy wheel design has fallen out of favour ? Only a few weeks ago a small frame was cut and raised at Cressing Temple employing this system.

I have come across a number of articles by Timothy Easton in DBRG News (June 1997 & January 1998) on the topic of apotropaic marks and these articles also make reference to daisy wheels. Timothy states that these are known to have existed as early as the 6th century BC.

Timothy makes reference to some books which might assist the serious student in their investigations in this respect including :-

Merrifield, R. 1987, The Archeology of Ritual and Magic, London, Batsford.

Peesch, R., 1983, The Ornament in European Folk Art, New York, Alpine Fine Arts Collection.

Unfortunatly I have not yet had the pleasure of cruising the pages of either of these books but it has to be stated that both of these books preceed the current research work being undertaken by Laurie Smith in his earnest endeavour to connect the use of symbols with practical application. For example this morning Laurie sent me a note from which I shall quote a brief extract :-

"Leigh Court barn near Worcester has nine cruck trusses and two end walls. According to Michael Peach, the architect in charge of the restoration many years ago, there were few carpenter's marks on this building. He did however, spot a daisy wheel and, having had access to his measured drawings, I discovered that it has a five daisy wheel in line floor plan and daisy wheel truss design. The barn is 33 feet across (exactly 2 medieval rods) and has the biggest cruck span yet discovered."

So it would appear that we now have some fact based evidence that demonstrates that geometry in combination with standard units of measurement were employed in medieval building construction. It is this kind of "evidence based" research that we need to expand upon in order to help us sort fact from fiction.

I have contacted the sectretary of the OBR to establish the basis for the statement made on their exhibition panels and I will report back in due course.

We now need to find some good examples of US frames that have daisy wheels on the frame together with a measured plan and cross section of same for evidence based analysis.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19688 05/14/09 09:27 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5
M
marko Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5
Sorry I've not seen this for a couple of days,

my specualtive comments about bored apprentices were a bit glib I suppose but really I was just trying to say that the presence of these marks could be significant but there again quite possibly isn't. As others have said our energies might be better directed at seeing what can be done with this system.

Conan Doyle said, and I paraphrase here, that once you take away the impossible you are left with the actual, no matter how unlikely. Perhaps this should be modified to 'no matter how mundane'!
For my part I really just enjoyed finding out about this method of setting out as I'm a maths dunce and approach things visually.

Last edited by marko; 05/14/09 09:29 AM.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: marko] #19691 05/14/09 12:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi Marko,

I think that not so many years ago very few people must have been mathematically literate however we do know that geometry (which is very visual) has been around and well practiced for thousands of years so it might well make sense that symbols provide clues about the "actual".

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19694 05/14/09 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
G
Gabel Offline
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 687
Originally Posted By: OurBarns1


I'm looking forward to Gabel's upcoming post on what Laurie Smith has said about the wheel, it's origins, etc. And I wonder if Mr. Smith suggested why it fell out of favor as a design tool?




I haven't ever heard Laurie speculate as to the origins or potential meaning to the daisy wheel symbol outside what he has been able to demonstrate in terms of it's use as a design aid in specific buildings which he has documented thoroughly. See his articles in TF #70 and #90. Laurie is not a symboligist. Ken, are you familiar with these articles. He has also writted an in-depth study of the geometry of the Barley Barn at Cressing Temple which was given to the students at last years course as part of the study materials.

I've also never heard him speculate as to it's demise, but my thoughts would be that some of the forces at play included: standardization of measurement; the role of the architect becoming separate from the builder and it's subsequient quick development as a separate trade with separate skills/methods, etc.; technology such as improved and readily available rules, graduated squares, tapes, drafting tables, etc; the advent of numbers based systems for manufacturing and building (e.g. the square rule); the publication and widespread use of carpenters manuals and pattern books (beginning in the 18th century) replacing the system of local/regionally specific,inherited knowledge and methods with more or less "standard" practices and standard patterns -- these are just a few off the top of my head.


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19698 05/14/09 03:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Hi Gabel:

I may have went too far in suggesting you had heard Laurie Smith speak specifically on wheel origins and its demise. I was going by your comment to Roger Nair: "It is actually not cumbersome to lay out a building this way. But I don't have time to elaborate right now either..."

I guess I was waiting for you to address the use of the wheel and that you might also have remembered some other snippets from Laurie, etc.

Those reasons you cite for why the wheel fell out of favor sound perfectly sensible. And I'm in the process of getting back issues of TF, #70 & 90


Ken,

6th century B.C. for the daisy wheel, wow... that's way before the broad axe! This suggests it's more than just a building-design tool.

Those books would be a great resource to look at. Nice find. You are often mentioning good dissertation subjects on TF. The origin, meaning, etc, of apotropaic marks on frames would no doubt be a fascinating research study and expand on what we “don’t know.”

I’m always curious about the cultures where certain things originate. Too often TF has been examined in terms of frame typology, joinery, etc… but it seems that little has been unearthed about the early culture(s) and their beliefs that actually created these structures—why they built the way they did, not just how. Fact-based reports are likely elusive as indigenous cultures were typically orally based in terms of how teachings were disseminated. Maybe some poetry or songs exist about early European building design ??? Maybe there are paintings on rocks… (Maybe there are wheels scratched into things!)

And that's wonderful that you have access to Mr. Smith. I certainly welcome some facts. Maybe he might even post something here… And also neat to hear the 33' (2 rods width) report. Also interesting to hear you've inquired w/ the folks at OBR regarding my discovery of their words “Daisy Wheel scratched on a doorframe at Cogges. This is to stop evil spirits from entering the building.” Superstition is common among many early cultures who relied on gods and natural events to explain their world. Such superstition was typically woven into all facets of life, dwellings and design being no exception.

This is completely foreign to us today. We plop down homes wherever we please. Economics is often the sole dictator about building orientation: a southerly exposure helps reduce the heating budget, etc. Today, facing the street is much more of a determinant of building orientation than facing Venus in retrograde, or the east wind that may be thought to bring good fortune, etc. I think our modern mindset on this is really quite new to humanity. We are no longer governed by the natural world, its elements and forces.

I think this has been a great topic to shoot back and forth here on the forum.



Last edited by OurBarns1; 05/14/09 03:26 PM. Reason: 6th century B.C.

Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19704 05/14/09 04:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
Originally Posted By: djswan
Originally Posted By: Gabel


the role of the architect becoming separate from the builder



Just paying attention smile

I'm going to keep hammering that one in folks heads untill order is restored.


and lets hope that some builders are forced to take some design / proportion / art classes / integretity counseling - dear god what a world we would live in if your wishes came true... its bad enough with bad architects combining with bad builders. letting either one run rampant - sheesh!


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19706 05/14/09 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Don't Let me distract from the direction this is going. I am curious if a mathematician can connect the ratio of 1.618 to the daisy wheel? Is there a relation and what is it?

A lot of those changes Gabel mentioned came with the industrial revolution maybe a bit before.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19708 05/14/09 05:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi Don & Gabel,

I have TF no 70 but not 90. Catching sight of this article would be useful.

Laurie tells me that broadband has not yet reached his rural location in Wales and so he sends his apologies for not being able to check in on this forum on a regular basis.

Trees were being cut down and used in buildings long before the advent of the hewing axe. Timber buildings were being constructed in Scotland and Ireland (crannogs) over 3000 years ago just as the iron age roundhouse settlements here in my own village in Hampshire. The axe must be one of the oldest tools with some made from flint, then bronze, then iron.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19709 05/14/09 05:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

I found my answer, but don't let that stop anyone from commenting. The first joint on your finger, multiplied out 9 times will equal your height, fractals we are.

I think the stone axe would be the oldest, the local natives were using stone axes just 500 years ago. Copper was a used metal as well, not sure of dates.

I should reread 70 and 90, for the umpteenth time.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19713 05/14/09 08:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Would be nice for members to be able to view TF back issues online (But that would kill sales of the TF CD-ROM I suppose!!)

Laurie Smith on the forum would be a hoot!

Given the 6th century B.C. range, I'd like to ask him what came first: the wheel as a building aid, or was there some other purpose?

Anyone know if the wheel can be used to build crucks?


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19721 05/14/09 09:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
I think I just answered my cruck question. Been going back over the posts, specif. the one where Ken quotes Laurie Smith:

"Leigh Court barn near Worcester has nine cruck trusses and two end walls. According to Michael Peach, the architect in charge of the restoration many years ago, there were few carpenter's marks on this building. He did however, spot a daisy wheel and, having had access to his measured drawings, I discovered that it has a five daisy wheel in line floor plan and daisy wheel truss design. The barn is 33 feet across (exactly 2 medieval rods) and has the biggest cruck span yet discovered."

So I guess the wheel can be used for more than your standard square-timbered frame.

Re-reading the posts on this thread is something I've found necessary. A lot gets glossed over on the first run-thru...



Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Gabel] #19728 05/15/09 10:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
[/quote]
Guys, the daisy wheel is a way to draw accurately prior to drafting tables and T-squares. It is not magic.
[/quote]

It is not magic, but there is a quality to it which could be construed as such. I am looking at the daisy wheel in three dimensions, a two part tetrahedron, and then multiples of that. The magic happens naturally, it is part to our selves and most things around us. The six fractions, 1/2-1/64th also relate to cell development and the "magic" that happens at this point. Cells are basic circles and when they split they form the tetrahedron sequence and at the 64th multiple signs of life appear or start to form, organs, limbs, us. If we look at it as a 2 dimensional function it is just a way to draw accurately prior to drafting tables and T-squares, and now cad programs.

I am in hopes that it will bring order to the construction process. "The daisy wheel made me do it." Things will then be as they should.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19732 05/15/09 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
and forget lasers and ink jets... remember the modern daisy wheel?





Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19733 05/15/09 02:30 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: djswan
Lets not leave half the world out of this discussion.

[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/ZENSTUMPKIN.jpg[/img][/img]

Nothing will be left out Grasshopper



Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19734 05/15/09 02:51 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/LittleStumpkin.jpg[/img][/img]

Layout done with dividers. Now, if I can only remember how I did it.


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19735 05/15/09 03:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
Originally Posted By: Tom Cundiff
Originally Posted By: djswan
Lets not leave half the world out of this discussion.

[img][IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r177/Edgeworks/ZENSTUMPKIN.jpg[/img][/img]

Nothing will be left out Grasshopper



that looks like 1 pissed off stump.
i think an axe yin yand would have made more sense, as it would take a long while to plane a tree down... wink


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19737 05/15/09 04:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3FPdgzUm9c&feature=PlayList&p=88EDD1895A2F5587&index=23

Don't be afraid, go ahead and watch all 45 clips. This one fits the last few posts. I would put a set of dividers and a square in to the circle, unless that has been done already.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19742 05/15/09 08:32 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245


I have used the Daisy Wheel as a protractor several times on the job. I just scratch one on a piece of scrap. I usually draw the wheel with a radius of 2 7/8". This creates a wheel with a circumference of 36". I then step off the degrees 10 to the inch around the outside edge. You can also use a radius of 3 9/16" for a circumference of 45" and step off the degrees 1 to the 1/8".




Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19743 05/15/09 09:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Nice graphics Tom C. !

Neat wheel template specs too... and it has to be mentioned, 360 degrees gets divided by 12 quite nicely, too.

What are some examples of when you use the wheel on a job?


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19745 05/15/09 09:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL

...I am looking at the daisy wheel in three dimensions, a two part tetrahedron, and then multiples of that. The magic happens naturally, it is part to our selves and most things around us. The six fractions, 1/2-1/64th also relate to cell development and the "magic" that happens at this point. Cells are basic circles and when they split they form the tetrahedron sequence and at the 64th multiple signs of life appear or start to form, organs, limbs, us.

Tim


Damn it-- 64 is not a multiple of 12!
What happened?



Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19749 05/16/09 01:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Don, here is my guess. Draw a large circle, you will be able to place 64 circles inside the large first circle, daisy wheel after daisy wheel. The addition looks like this, from the outside large wheel......1+6=7+1=8+6=14+1=15+6=21+1=22+6=28......57+6=63+1=64. You will always have a daisy wheel left in the center until you hit 64. I think if you make it 3 dimensional you come out even and magic happens. I don't know where you will end up, so be careful.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19753 05/16/09 04:01 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
here is my guess.

12 x12 x12 = 1728 for 3D Daisy Wheel , 1728/64 = 27

3D Daisy Wheel will divide by 64 but it will look more like a Dandelion.



Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19754 05/16/09 04:54 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: Tom
Cundiff


I have used the Daisy Wheel as a protractor several times on the job. I just scratch one on a piece of scrap. I usually draw the wheel with a radius of 5 3/4". This creates a wheel with a circumference of 36". I then step off the degrees 10 to the inch around the outside edge. You can also use a radius of 7 1/8" for a circumference of 45" and step off the degrees 1 to the 1/8".



I'm sorry, the numbers in my original post are wrong. I divided by 2, one to many times. Numbers in red are corrected.

I have used the Daisy Wheel to layout and check lines on the floor deck for square. I used it once to measure the out of square condition of an existing structure. The bigger you can draw your wheel the more accurate it will be.


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19757 05/16/09 10:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Originally Posted By: Tom Cundiff
here is my guess.

12 x12 x12 = 1728 for 3D Daisy Wheel , 1728/64 = 27

3D Daisy Wheel will divide by 64 but it will look more like a Dandelion.



What he said, Don.

Thanks for the correlation, Tom.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19758 05/16/09 01:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
I'm having trouble following what you guys are saying.

What do you mean "wheel inside of wheel?"

What determines the spacing between wheels, etc?

crazy


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19766 05/16/09 05:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
Dave Shepard Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 718
You're on a roll today, Derek. grin


Member, Timber Framers Guild
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19767 05/16/09 05:45 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: OurBarns1
I'm having trouble following what you guys are saying.

What do you mean "wheel inside of wheel?"

What determines the spacing between wheels, etc?

crazy


All the Daisy Wheels intersect at the center point in the Dandelion Sphere.
Each point on the outside of the Sphere is the intersect of 3 "wheels". 12 cubed.
3 is the magic number because we're dealing with equilateral triangles that make up a regular tetrahedron. Three lines meeting at 60 deg. just like the Daisy Wheel.

If you take 3 equilateral triangles or half a Daisy Wheel and cut them out and fold them to make a 3D object (a regular tetrahedron), You magically get a fourth equilateral triangle. 3 x 4 = 12

3 x 3 x 3 = 27. or 3 cubed ( there's the 27 ) and 3 cubed x 64 = 12 cubed

Remember thats One, Two, Three. Three licks to the center of a Tootsepop. very important.

Lest we not forget, Daisy Wheels have 6 points and everything is 60 deg., and then they have a dark side or Yin to their Yang, 6 points half way in between, That makes 12 and also gives us 45 & 90 deg. If you divide the Daisy Wheel any further you get nothing but nasty fractions, 22 1/2, 11 1/4, 5 5/8, ...... Not much use to a carpenter, unless you are doing mitre cuts, then it's exactly what you need. I'd be hard pressed to set my Starrett protractor to 5/8 of a deg.

The axle width combined with wheel offset determines the space between your wheels. If the wheels have to much back spacing they may not clear your brake calipers.

Happy Wheelin'


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19768 05/16/09 07:56 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245


The Dandelion Sphere would look something like this.


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19773 05/16/09 10:40 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: Tom Cundiff

All the Daisy Wheels intersect at the center point in the Dandelion Sphere.
Each point on the outside of the Sphere is the intersect of 3 "wheels". 12 cubed.
3 is the magic number because we're dealing with equilateral triangles that make up a regular tetrahedron. Three lines meeting at 60 deg. just like the Daisy Wheel.

If you take 3 equilateral triangles or half a Daisy Wheel and cut them out and fold them to make a 3D object (a regular tetrahedron), You magically get a fourth equilateral triangle. 3 x 4 = 12

3 x 3 x 3 = 27. or 3 cubed ( there's the 27 ) and 3 cubed x 64 = 12 cubed

Remember thats One, Two, Three. Three licks to the center of a Tootsiepop. very important.

Lest we not forget, Daisy Wheels have 6 points and everything is 60 deg., and then they have a dark side or Yin to their Yang, 6 points half way in between, That makes 12 and also gives us 30 & 90 deg. If you divide the wheel again you get 24 points and 15 & 45 deg. If you divide the Daisy Wheel any further you get nothing but nasty fractions, 22 1/2, 11 1/4, 5 5/8, ...... Not much use to a carpenter, unless you are doing mitre cuts, then it's exactly what you need. I'd be hard pressed to set my Starrett protractor to 5/8 of a deg.

The axle width combined with wheel offset determines the space between your wheels. If the wheels have to much back spacing they may not clear your brake calipers.

Happy Wheelin'


More corrections.


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19785 05/17/09 11:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Derek, you were up late. In the video I posted the speaker mentioned the 64 tetrahedron grid being inscribed on an obelisk within the great pyramid, I think, the odd part, he suggest it is not just scratched on, it is burned into the internal make up of the stone, you can't scratch it off, it is imbedded in the stone. If this all is true, I don't know. What is true is the daisy wheel was not just a method used to build with, it has underlying or overlying complications, to use it as a building tool is part of its fractal usage, reaching singularity at that point. Meaning, don't look for anything more or anything less.

We have been building tetrahedrons with Q-tips and hot glue, we are moving into the shop to build a full scale human size one today.

Tim



Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19786 05/17/09 11:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
The book, The Old Way of Seeing, has some interesting information on the golden section, various cultural measuring systems, the pentagram (5 pointed star), and of course the daisy wheel and more.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19806 05/18/09 02:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
I've got to get that book, The Old Way of Seeing. Sounds like some good information. Many people have commented on it, which usually means there's something to take away from its pages. A daisy wheel in the pyramids is unexpected. This seems to suggest the wheel was employed before timber framing. And the pyramids were some time before “Christianity.”

Derek,

You've been busy. You should apply for a grant! The Patron Saint of the Wheel is an interesting element to bring in and points to the "sacredness" or "importance" of certain geometric configurations. And interestingly, she was not pagan. Do the angles in the paintings correlate to the angles in the wheel?

Ken,

Can you ask Laurie Smith to comment on my question: whether the wheel has its origins as a building device or was there some other purpose? He may not be able to answer the question, but it would be helpful to hear his response—someone who has studied the wheel some.

I just got my hands on the back issues (TF No. 70 and 90) but have yet to paw over the text. Anyone else care to comment on these articles?


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19808 05/18/09 03:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,685
J
Jim Rogers Online Confused
Member
Online Confused
Member
J
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,685
Recently I heard a speaker talking about the "wheel" not the daisy wheel but the wheel itself.

He said the person who invented the wheel was smart.

But the person who put two of them on an axle to make a cart was a genius.....


Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19809 05/18/09 04:08 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: djswan

I'm not trying to bogart Tom's fine display of daisy wheels, I'm trying to pass but I keep finding dust of information. grin This is fascinating. I'm on something good here, answers.


Oh don't mind me, I was just having a Daisy/Dandelion Fever attack ( stems & seeds thing ?). I thought my head was about to implode /explode simultaneously.

Nassim Haramein
cool, crop circles too.
Discussion of the 64 Tetraherron Grid
Squeegee Your Third Eye



Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19811 05/18/09 04:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
mo Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
how bout little wheel going around big wheel. smile


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: bmike] #19812 05/18/09 04:56 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: bmike
... remember the modern daisy wheel?


You mean this one?

Which of these tools is more accurate?


To learn more about the compass and dividers, I recommend looking for old Mechanical Drawing books or a copy of "Audels Mathematics and Calculations for Mechanics". It "will be of value"



Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19814 05/18/09 06:15 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
More Links
Vortex/ Fractal Math "Marko Rodin has discovered a series of regularities in the decimal number system ..... known as the Rodin Solution and often referred to as the Rodin Coil".

Psychadelic Trance Culture Now I get it, this explains everything.


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Jim Rogers] #19822 05/19/09 12:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Don, I don't see the pages of The Old Way of Seeing being shredded with use but it does have some interesting aspects. I fine I have a mental block when I read such books and they go on about the subtleties of architecture, pointing out the right way and wrong way of building. I am sure there is, it just is not one of my favorite choices of reading materiel. I picked it up for its brief mention of geometry and the connection to buildings. I may find more to it, I have not completed it yet, I have three different books going at the same time, something I don't do well.

We did build the large three dimensional daisy wheel, it even got a coat of paint. I can't find the cable to the camera for transferring pictures, I will when the cable shows up, just for fun. We followed some oriental influences in building it, 6 long sticks and 12 shorter (half the long stick) length sticks.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19823 05/19/09 12:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Tom, interesting and far out links. I have always found 3,6 and 9 great numbers.

I am going to thy and make a set of dividers form one stick of wood, I saw a set in York, Maine, during a tour of a building at TTRAG. I have a picture but the same problem as listed above.

I don't see the daisy wheel as being pagan. How do you define pagan anyway? Sun worshipers? Why are there so many pyramids found around the world?

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19825 05/19/09 01:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL

I don't see the daisy wheel as being pagan. How do you define pagan anyway? Sun worshipers? Why are there so many pyramids found around the world?

Tim


Tim,

The term Pagan is often misunderstood. Many years ago, I used to think it meant devil worship. Think pentagram (sometimes displayed as an upsidedown star.) Rightside up (within a circle) is the pagan symbol.

But paganism is a religion that basically subscribes to many different gods, typically based on the seasons and nature. Pagans are very in touch w/ the natural rhythms of life: the circle of life. The Druids and Celts (the indigenous peoples of England) were pagans. Those who built Stonehenge were pagans.

Christianity expelled/cleansed/drove these gods from the minds of early Europeans. "One God" was to be worshipped, and certainly not an earthly-based one.

Pagans do not subscribe to the idea of "one god" up in a "heaven."

Ancient Roman and Greek mythology celebrated a host of gods; this a pagan trait. Kind of like the Native Americans, most early Asian cultures (Tibet, Buddhists, etc.) Pretty much all the world's indigenous cultures, really...

The wheel may be christian, it may be pagan... I guess my question is whether it was a building tool or a ceremonial tool.

If it was for ceremony (whatever church it may be from), it basically means the layout of old buildings has a religious basis.


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19828 05/19/09 04:00 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245

Last edited by Tom Cundiff; 05/19/09 04:07 AM.

Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19829 05/19/09 04:17 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19831 05/19/09 07:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi Don,

A minor point of correction. Until a few years ago the English were mainly Anglo-Saxon with a smattering of Jute / Norman / Viking / Dane / Roman, etc. Celts are indigenous to Ireland with many of these people relocating later to Scotland. Wales also has a high Celtic constituent in ts population. Celts are dark haired, fair skinned and their first toe is longer or sticks out further than their big toe. The Druids did not build Stonehenge -they came much later.

Your points about Paganism are well made and I find myself having much in common with their thoughts, attitudes and respect of nature and the seasons in their approach to life. Quite sensible really.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19832 05/19/09 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Tom, more great links.

Ken, in one of Tom's links crop circles came up, do they appear near you and have you ever visited one, in other words are they real? I have a faint recollection they have appeared in England?

It appears they do with a quick search......

http://www.ukcropcircles.co.uk/?page=crop-circles

Don, here is a video with a twist to religion. Did you check out the other one I posted way back? I try to look at these with a somewhat open mind, in that I don't want to condemn or misconstrue them in any way, I am not picking sides just listening. I use them as evening entertainment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRmJMhFZXlI&feature=related

Were the Pagans worshiping only earthly Gods?

Tim



Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19835 05/19/09 02:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
Tom, more great links.

Don, here is a video with a twist to religion. Did you check out the other one I posted way back? I try to look at these with a somewhat open mind, in that I don't want to condemn or misconstrue them in any way, I am not picking sides just listening. I use them as evening entertainment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRmJMhFZXlI&feature=related

Were the Pagans worshiping only earthly Gods?

Tim




Hey Tim:

I don't know about worshiping only earthly gods...

That video (Jordan Maxwell) is a great find! Finally, someone is posing an insight about the unit 12. the god Horus is where we get "hours"...he took 12 steps across the sky and that's why we have 12 hours on a clock face (also interesting to consider he mentions 12 grades in traditional schooling).

I did see the first clip you posted on Nassim Haramein, but I find Maxwell is much easier to follow. Keep on youtubing!


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19836 05/19/09 02:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: Tom Cundiff


Those are some interesting links Tom. I'll have to spend some time on those...
Never heard/considered Native American Geometry.
Makes me wonder if there were a preferred number of tepee poles!


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Ken Hume] #19837 05/19/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted By: Ken Hume
Hi Don,

A minor point of correction. Until a few years ago the English were mainly Anglo-Saxon with a smattering of Jute / Norman / Viking / Dane / Roman, etc. Celts are indigenous to Ireland with many of these people relocating later to Scotland. Wales also has a high Celtic constituent in ts population. Celts are dark haired, fair skinned and their first toe is longer or sticks out further than their big toe. The Druids did not build Stonehenge -they came much later.

Your points about Paganism are well made and I find myself having much in common with their thoughts, attitudes and respect of nature and the seasons in their approach to life. Quite sensible really.

Regards

Ken Hume



Ken:

Please correct me in regards to your homeland. I should have said the UK, not England specifically.

As an aside, my first toe is longer than my "big toe." Never heard the Celt connection w/ this. My ancestry is mostly English and German. Very interesting.

So who built Stonehenge? Or is this one of the great mysteries?
It was built by pagans, however, no?

I too find myself aligning with "pagan" thoughts, attitudes and respect of nature and the seasons in their approach to life.

Interesting to consider that the religions based on "One God" have typically been the conquerors of history, ramming their ideology down the throats (and minds) of the indigenous. The Crusades and the Persian empire certainly have a track record in this regard.

But the Mongols, those who conquered more land and people in all of history, what "religion" did they follow?

By contrast, pagans have been largely peaceful throughout history.



Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19839 05/19/09 07:25 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: OurBarns1

Those are some interesting links Tom. I'll have to spend some time on those...
Never heard/considered Native American Geometry.
Makes me wonder if there were a preferred number of tepee poles!


According to "The Indian Tipi" by Reginald and Gladys Laubin, Tipis were based on either a 3 pole Tripod or a 4 pole Quadripod depending on the tribe. The Sioux Tipi was based on a tripod with a total of 18 poles. The Shoshoni Tipi was a four pole based tipi with 15 or 18 poles total. Blackfoot and Crow tipis were 4 pole type.


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19845 05/20/09 02:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570


I've just finished going over the articles in Timber Framing No. 70 and 90.

The articles are certainly interesting and suggest the daisy wheel was a frequently employed building aid 500 years ago. Though I'm certainly no expert on the wheel, I thought it would be helpful to add my interpretation of the articles to our discussion, especially for those who do not have access to the articles.

The three buildings surveyed by Laurie Smith are in Wales. Smith states building orientation in all cases is largely determined by the weather. The homes are built on a north-south axis, which protects against northerly winter weather bowing down from the mountains, while also allowing the eastern and western long walls to face morning and evening sunlight. A fact Smith states allowed for maximum sunlight at dark times of the day as these buildings were certainly before electricity and internal lighting.

As far as wheel geometry, what I find interesting is that he not so much focuses on the circles that make up the "spokes" of the wheel, but the fact that they overlap one another. Through this, Smith briefly alludes to religious origins. Where the wheels overlap creates an ellipse sometimes referred to as the "vesica piscis," or "fish’s bladder" (Google this term).





Smith states the vesica piscis approximates the shape of a fish and is "the earliest Christian symbol." This fish representation is technically referred to as an ichthys (again Google this term). Tom Cundiff has posted links on these symbols.






Researching the two terms will find you reading that the vesica piscis also forms the shape of the human eye. Some call it the "Eye of God" which is found in the pyramid on the back of a US dollar. This "eye" is also in Freemasonry and other early mysterious organizations.

If you arrange a number of vesica piscis within a circle (kind of like a daisy wheel on steroids) you come up with what's referred to as "the flower of life," and the "seed of life." Again, see Tom C’s links. Most accounts state the "flower of life" is found in nearly every religion and holds the keys to the universe through various geometrical configurations and patterns. It relates to everything from cell division to shapes found in nature such as hexagonal patterns on snakeskin and honeycombs.

Though Laurie Smith does not go down this road other than to say the vesica piscis is the earliest Christian symbol, he does remark that some buildings have key points of their design falling in the center of certain vesica piscis, which means the focus is where the circles overlap in the geometry.

Instead of a six pointed daisy wheel, the first home is based on a four pointed (or petaled) wheel. Thinking of the wheel as a clock face, note the four vesica piscis at 12, 3, 6 and 9, and notice how the rafters pass precisely through the center of these...where the pupil of an eye would be.





Living in Maine, I can't help but notice this rather squat home design w/ a high roof looks a lot like early cape homes here in New England.

This is all just the tip of the iceberg. I'll stop here and let some other folks who may have read the articles comment.

Though Smith just barely speaks on the origins of the wheel, he does give a Christian reference, while also saying the daisy wheel is "ubiquitous in historic buildings." Given the heavy reference to vesica piscis and its own associations (Eye of God, etc...), I think it's safe to say the wheel, and by default buildings constructed with it, exhibit religious roots.





Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19847 05/20/09 08:15 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Originally Posted By: OurBarns1

Most accounts state the "flower of life" is found in nearly every religion and holds the keys to the universe through various geometrical configurations and patterns. It relates to everything from cell division to shapes found in nature such as hexagonal patterns on snakeskin and honeycombs.

..... I think it's safe to say the wheel, and by default buildings constructed with it, exhibit religious roots.


I think it's safe to say the builders, and by default the buildings they constructed, exhibit religious roots. The "Wheel" itself is much deeper than any religion. It represents the knowledge of the natural laws of the universe. Knowledge is power, of course they all want to take credit for it.




Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #19848 05/21/09 01:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
In that vein Tom, I think early religions were much more science based. I agree the wheel and its geometric laws, etc. seem more science than religion.

As an case in point, Taoism, one of my early interests, is an example of a "religion" that first began as a science. In China, there was never a Taoist church until many many years later. The forces of Yin and Yang (its foremost teaching) are not about gods, but universal principles and interactive forces found in nearly every facet of life and substance. Same w/ The Five Elements, the I-Ching and the Chinese Zodiac.

Taoism became a religion when people began to follow these nature-based "teachings" en-masse. But it began with solitary recluses observing universal laws. Somewhere/time in the West, science and religion got split into very distinct camps.

A strong proponent of this separation is the Catholic Church; free thinking is hardly encouraged. The world is flat, etc.

Anyway, probably running of topic a bit, but I also wanted to add that Smith found the Daisy Wheel was used even to place the pegs in the old frames he studied. Wow, even the pegs!







Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #19911 05/26/09 01:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
mo Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 850
the Pantheon still stands. I like the epicycloid.

p.s. I find that the frisbee sailing is pure Taoism.

Last edited by mo; 05/26/09 01:17 AM.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: mo] #19921 05/26/09 08:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Nice analogy of the frisbee, Mo...

So many things there to draw on: motion/stillness; life/death; giving/receiving; the rise and fall of energy...

Is the frisbee yin or yang as it's flying?



Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #19943 05/28/09 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
http://www.space.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=black_holes

Basically way of topic, but I couldn't resist. Black holes are round.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #19976 05/29/09 02:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918
B
bmike Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 918


hourglass nebula, as photographed from the hubble.

you know that when you track the position of the sun in the sky over a year it creates what looks like the infinity symbol...


Mike Beganyi Design and Consulting, LLC.
www.mikebeganyi.com
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #20012 05/30/09 08:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Dear Liza, dear Liza, what color is it.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #20082 06/02/09 08:39 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
Tom Cundiff Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 245
http://archtimberframe.com/?q=menu_geom This site has some good information on using a compass to find angles


Not all who wander are lost.
Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Tom Cundiff] #20231 06/10/09 01:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Even ants are built with the daisy wheel in mind or in this case the ants eye.

http://gigapan.org/viewGigapan.php?id=24863&window_height=419&window_width=775

click on the ants eye, it looks like a honey comb.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: ] #20302 06/14/09 12:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #20437 06/20/09 02:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
I'm currently writing a story about the Master Logger certification process in the Northeast. Here's what they selected for a logo...




Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: OurBarns1] #20449 06/21/09 10:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Don, I wonder if they know why they selected an appropriate logo?

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #20454 06/22/09 01:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
OurBarns1 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
I'll ask them that. I'm guessing it's to reflect the "interconnection" that good forest practices benefit everything: the environment, loggers, and the economy as a whole.


Don Perkins
Member, TFG


to know the trees...


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #20743 07/23/09 01:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnMi-peIs6I&feature=PlayList&p=5132C4022B7AC918&index=0

Just in case you don't have any thing else to do this evening.

Slip knot cosmic doughnuts! There is daisy wheel as well.

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #20760 07/25/09 02:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 344
Joel McCarty Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 344
Thanks, I was able to follow it for awhile.


Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: Joel McCarty] #20763 07/26/09 02:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Here is an audio interview with Dan Winter, same fellow in the previous video. He gets into architecture, and even lime mortar from clam shells, imagine that, as a fractal, it is a plus for the building, talks a bit about trees, yurts and steal cables ( a no-no), even raw food. Could building timber frames with no metal fasteners be bliss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuF89FZBVnI&feature=related

Tim

Re: Daisy Wheel [Re: TIMBEAL] #20775 07/28/09 12:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882

Re: Daisy Wheel #23827 06/16/10 01:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
So to not disrupt the hewing thread...... did any one else check out the daisy wheel link in Ken's first link?

This is it here...

http://nicolawood.typepad.co.uk/kesurokai/daisy-wheel-geometry/

And this one you have to scroll to the bottom, along with some nice photos.

http://www.timberstructures.net/timber-framing.html

Tim


Re: Daisy Wheel #25341 01/27/11 01:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882

Re: Daisy Wheel #25488 02/09/11 03:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
More vesica piscis...... a good series Cotterell covers a huge spectrum on this one. Near the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgEvyNDKyLs&NR=1

Re: Daisy Wheel #26423 05/14/11 02:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Fractals..... some cool shirts at around 25 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDrvzUitPoE&feature=feedlik

Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11

Moderated by  Jim Rogers, mdfinc, Paul Freeman 

Newest Members
HFT, Wrongthinker, kaymaxi, RLTJohn, fendrishi
5134 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.064s Queries: 16 (0.017s) Memory: 4.1169 MB (Peak: 5.3000 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 09:28:57 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS