I'm a new member seeking help identifying some marks we discovered on a vertical post on a circa 1800 barn attached to a 1651 historic register home in my town (Dwight-Derby house). There are a number of beams inside the barn with typical Roman numeral marriage marks, but these unique marks have us puzzled. The mark in question is a perfectly straight line with a perfect semicircle on top of it and at its midpoint, kind of like the "Kilroy" character looking over a wall, if you know what I mean. These lines are too perfect to have been chiseled. They seem to have been made by hitting some straight edged tool into the beam and then a half round chisel or gouge held at 90 degrees to make the semicircle. They are located where 2 beams join this post. This is mostly a scribe rule structure. Does anyone know what, if anything they mean? Their origin? Many of the beams, including the one with these marks appear to have been re-used in this barn from some other structure. This property is on the historic register and we would like to be able to state with some certainty what this mark means, as it will be on display. I tried to attach a picture, but couldn't figure out how to do so, short of creating a website or loading Mozilla. If you think you may know the answer but need to see a picture, please e-mail me and I'll send it to you. Thanks for your help!

Hi Harry, welcome. what you have sounds interesting.

A picture really would help in getting you some answers. Does the mark pass across (bridge) the joint, or does it appear on both timbers?

Pics are pretty straightforward to post here. Try these instructions: (you need to create an account at a free hosting site)

To post pics here via a free hosting site such as photobucket:

· Go to http://www.photobucket.com and create an account.
· In the "upload images & video" section, click "choose files" (640X480 is a good setting, anything bigger will have a negative affect on pages in this forum).
· Choose your picture.
· It will upload and you can title it if you want.
· Click "Return to album" (your picture is now on the photobucket site).
· You will be redirected to the uploaded photo; move the cursor over the picture.
· Click "direct link" then right-click "copy." (A link to the photo is now on your machine's clipboard.)
· Go back to the TFG forum site. Click "reply"
· On the top of the reply text window, click the icon third from left (next to the envelope).
· A small window will appear with "http://" highlighted
· Right-click in this window, select paste (which will insert a link to your picture from photobucket), click " OK."
· Select "preview post." You should be able to see the picture that will appear instead of just a web address. Just type text above or below the web address.

Looking forward to seeing your pictures.

Here's a photo of one of the 2 at this location on the beam.

Hi Don,
Thank you very much for the Photobucket info. I posted a photo. We have not yet removed the sheathing board on the wall adjacent to the post with the marks, so I don't yet know if these are truly marriage marks. However, this post has several other unused peg holes and mortises and I suspect it was previously used in another structure anyway. I SUSPECT that this mark was simply a different form of marriage mark, so that instead of the barn builder having to use umpteen Roman numerals to identify all joints, they simply made a mark like this. I just don't want to guess, because this barn is on an historic property and has tours, etc. If you're interested, you can Google "Dwight-Derby house".
Thanks again!

Welcome to the Forum, harry. Where in Mass are you? I'm on the western border, along NY state. I am surveying a barn right now that has the same type of mark. It was made by a race knife. Some race knives have a leg that allows it to pivot and make a full or semi-circle. The barn I'm researching uses both semi, and full circles over a line, or two lines. From what I can see of this barn, the single line means it is the east post, and the double line means west. The second bent uses a single line, while the third uses two lines. I haven't been able to dig deep enough to see what other markings are used, as I have to pull some siding boards. I look forward to seeing more about this topic, as scribe markings are a point of interest for me.

Looks like a typical 2' mark to me, where is it on the post ?

Will, it looks to be at a brace and just below the brace a girt, this is visible just to the right. So the 2' mark could be a 3' or 4' mark which goes against the norm. A shared mortice of sorts, the brace is not housed and the girt is.

harry, more pictures?

Tim

I agree -- looks like a two foot mark.

Hi Dave,
I'm in Medfield and so is the house/barn. A bit if trivia...way back when, Medfield got "crowded" so the town fathers sent forth settlers to find a new Medfield and some of them settled in Sturbridge, which was for years called New Medfiled. We have ties to Deerfiled as well. You can Google the Dwight-Derby house if you're interested. Its one of the oldest homes in the country, built in 1651. Original owner was shot by an arrow from King Phillip's native Americans when they attacked the town and burnt most of it down in 1676.
We think the barn was built around 1800, but we're not sure. We had a stack of old boards in the second floor of the barn that are pit-sawn, gang sawn, band sawn and circular sawn. Many of the posts and beams seem to have been re-used here as they have lots of now-unused mortises, etc. and Roman numerals on floor joists with none on the beams into which they tie.
Interestingly enough, the post with the unique mark is on the east corner, but its probably 4' from the top, so its not a 2 foot mark. We didn't see any double line marks on the west corner post. I'll take a closer look. We are only going to re-shingle the front and right sides of the barn so we're not tearing off other shingles and sheathing just to see if they have marks as well.
I found this site: http://www.dbrg.org.uk/Marks/Cmarks.pdf which shows this mark, but not as a standalone mark. This site is in England and Medfield is thought to have been named after Metfield England. Looks like builders didn't want to have Roman numerals reaching into the hundreds, so they sometimes added a mark like mine to one of the numerals to the I after a V to differentiate it from a plain old VI (6), thereby reducing the number of numerals. Makes sense, otherwise a barn frame would look like the credits on a movie where the date is MCMXXXVI!
Thanks for your reply.
Harry

Its about 4 feet from the top of the post and at the intersection of the beam supporting the second floor and a diagonal brace (there are 2 of these marks, one near each beam).
See myreply to Dave above for other info I found on a British site.
Thanks,
Harry

Here's the picture of the second mark:
http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv150/spizzerinctum/P1010059.jpg

I rescind my reply -- the two foot marks Iv'e seen are drawn with a square and these appear to be free hand.

Hi Harry:

Richard Harris' book Discovering Timber-Framed Buildings is based on the craft in England and has a table of various marks on p. 15. Along w/ roman numerals, the mark you refer to there on that barn looks like a number of ways carpenters have used to designate the sequence 1,2,3.

The caption w/ the table in the book reads: "A variety of identification tags attached to numbers 1,2,3."

I have drawn what the book shows below:



The book also shows the same sequence, but w/ whole circles and lines. The semi-circle looks like just another variation. I wonder what they did for the number 4,5 and so on??

I thought these marks were from Lord of The Rings!

Richard Harris' book is quite the valuable little resource, and should be read by every person with an interest in timber framing.

Thanks to all of you for your replies. I think we have it nailed now!
Harry

Hi All,

I would urge caution when making reference to the carpenter's mark illustrations that can be found within the pages of books. This really is a topic where variety is the order of the day and marking is not covered to any great extent within the pages Richard's timber framing primer. This book provides a good affordable start to beginning to understand English timber frame practice but gives little insight into mainland European or North American practice.

Tradition, practice and typical patterns employed in the marking of timbers do not travel far, it is variable across counties, countries and centuries and is also dependant on whether the timbers are green or dry (inc. reused) when marked.

Oft times timbers do not appear to be marked at all. Its quite possible that concealed marking might be employed.

I am not yet aware of anyone who has made an extensive never mind exhaustive study of timber marking.

Regards

Ken Hume

wow. that is a masterful mark to leave on a timber. like a signing off to each

Ken,
I can appreciate your statements regarding the origin and possible meanings of these marks. I have not been able to find any authoritative source either. Some of the answers to my question certainly make sense, but I doubt if we'll get any farther than that.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Regards,
Harry

In my last conversation with Jack Sobon, I asked him what area of timber framing was least researched, and he said that markings were in need of attention. It was an interesting moment, as that was my opinion as well, having had no luck looking into them in the past. I have been trying to take it upon myself to look into the matter, but don't have any idea where to begin, really. I am going to try to get an accurate map of the marks on this barn I am surveying, as well as an estimate of the date of construction, and region of the builder. It appears to have German roots.

Take a look at this "study" done in England. I sent the author an e-mail a few minutes ago to see if he knows any more.
http://www.dbrg.org.uk/Marks/Cmarks.pdf
I'm beginning to think that these old builders had a raceknife in their pocket (A race knife is a cutting knife used in shipbuilding, having a blade that is hooked at the point, and is used for marking outlines, on boards or metals, as by a pattern.) and they simply used it to make just another mark instead of using 100 or more Roman numerals to mark joints. It looks as if I and many of you have been going a bit crazy trying to find a better or different answer. This one's good enough for me! Off to the next mystery,
Harry

Hi Harry,

You need to absorb my words carefully.

Race knives are used on green timbers when they are still soft enough to cut with a quick swipe. Dry hard (reused) timbers tend to have chisel cuts because of the extra power needed to make an impression upon same.

Please don't loose sight of the fact that the primary user of the race knive is the timber merchant. Their marks can be seen in buildings and especially those employing imported (Baltic) timbers. Hewers also leave their marks.

Lets see what Martin comes up with. He is in Surrey and I am in neighbouring Hampshire - we are worlds apart.

Regards

Ken Hume

It would appear that Martin isn't reading or at least is not responding to e-mail.

Here in New England carpenter's marks have been made by chisle, gouge, race knife, and later in red crayon with arabic numerals rather than Roman numerals.

If anyone is unsure what a timber scribe or race knife which can be used to make circles looks like go here for a photo of one:
http://jonzimmersantiquetools.com/tools/timber_scribe.jpg

Jim